In my opinion, one of Trek's finest moments. Definitely Enterprise's emotional highpoint thus far.
I'd rate this in the same category as TNG's The Inner Light and DS9's The Visitor.
The actor that plays Trip really shines here and we get to see what makes Trip the man he is: foibles and all. Bakula is in top form as well and actually looks older by the episode's ending.
Hell, even Mayweather gets a part this episode!
My rating: 10/10
Worth taping and watching again.
Your opinions?
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
I thought it as a pretty good episode. It was quite similar to "Tuvix" in many ways, though. It seemed to me as though Trip had a bit of a confused look on his face at the end, almost like he was thinking "Why'd he do it?"
Posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
I would have prefered if the ending showed how Trip handled being cloned. That and how T'Pol justified kissing the clone even though the real Trip may be more than just infatuated with her. Wait, where does the alternate view of T'Pol and Archer fall under then?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Despite the biological crap of the cloning larve thing, this was a very good episode.
An emotional high for Enterprise, especially that last scene where the clone willingly gives up his live to save Trip. Some good character developments for the main cast, as well. It seems like the T'Pol-Tucker thing is actually going to happen. The first human-Vulcan child in Season 7? Damn, they could have called her T'Pau after all!
Posted by Alshrim Dax (Member # 258) on :
I loved it - this episode is one of my faves too! Lots of strong emotion - and i can't say this enough - but Jolene Blalock is an incredible actress - she can say so much by doing so little .. just by looking at T'Pol's face you can see her struggling inside - cracks in her voice....
I found the Trip/T'Pol scene fit this episode - i find that Connor Trinneer and Jolene Blalock have great chemistry! I'm glad they - the writers - just didn't leave the SUGGESTION hanging out there... that whole thing is getting old - i'm glad they took the chance and let that 'sexual tension' out. I think its a great foreshadow! Our question, "What is she gonna do now with the real Trip?" is what's gonna make future eps interesting.
Archer's determination is highlighted alot - and the final Trip-clone departure was beautiful - with Phlox, and Archer.
*trying to think of anything i didn't like* .. hmmmmmm.... Nope.. I liked everything about this one..
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Sim telling Phlox he was a good father was wrenching. As was Phlox having to tell Archer that Sim wouldnt survive the operation..
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
I wonder if Tripp has Sim's memories... In the end, I wondered how Tripp felt about being cloned? Considering the operation and coma, he was probobly barely on his feet at all.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
I would have expected Trip to be somewhat upset that he was cloned... that says nothing about being greatful, just slightly upset about how it happened.
I dunno how I feel about this episode yet. If Shem's [that's what I thought his name was, what does CC say?] experiences are transfered to Trip, that's something. If T'pol and Trip's relationship goes further. If the emotional crisis that was caused by Shem's death is carried over into the next episodes... these things and more will make the episode good. But if it is campy like many of the emotional episodes in the past I'll be upset. These changes need to continue to develop.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I think Trip was a bit shell-shocked at the episode's end. First he lost his sister and then he watches them bury an exact duplicate of himself....definitely feeling his own mortality, I'd wager.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Fuck.
What the hell is going on?! How the hell did this show start getting good all of a sudden? We could be seeing a return to the gets-good-in-season-three rule that Voyager managed to avoid so skillfully.
I also thought of "The Visitor," seeing Sim with Porthos almost brought a tear to my eye. I'm just very emotional at the moment, I think I'm getting my period. . .
I wonder if we'll get an Archer-Tucker-T'Pol love triangle. That would confuse the Ar/T'ers and the Tu/T'ers, we'd end up with BLT'ers (Bizzare Love Triangle)! 8)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Where does Porthos fit into that Love Triangle? He's like the kid caught in a bad divorce: he spends a night here, then there..... Do the doors open for the dog? I sure hope so....
Posted by BJ_O (Member # 858) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Do the doors open for the dog? I sure hope so....
Not unless he can jump up and hit the button with his nose!
B.J.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
As Archer said in this ep, Porthos doesn't do any tricks. 8)
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Well, except for detecting space-time anomalies 8)
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
If we are speaking about rules... To me, it seems that the show has returned to the "idiot script, good acting" rule.
I mean, look at this story. It doesn't make any sense. It relies on... magic, I would say, to bring "heroes" into the peril and to stall their rescure, not to mention completely impossible situations...
And yet the actors now are comfotable with the characters they play, and they now act them way better than before.
But the sad thing is... it's too late for me to appreciate this show. I saw end of this episode with all this powerful stuff... and I didn't care. Every time I see those characters I'm reminded previous two bad years.
On the bright side, scientific "knowledge" of the producers and "realistic" scenarios of screenwriters stopped to annoy me. They make me laugh instead. No, really Posted by Alshrim Dax (Member # 258) on :
That's almost like saying - i didn't see the first few movies of Alien - but saw the end of Aliens 3 and when Ripley dies.. I just didn't feel the anguish i should have - i just didn't care about her at all...
But I respect that you don't like it .. i personally - think that, creatively, Enterprise is a great series. I won't elaborate - because we'll probly disagree... But after watching 7 seasons of Voyager - this is a breath of fresh air...
As far as Porthos' role.. he holds the camera!!
Porthos: "And-a-ACTION!"
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
quote:Originally posted by Alshrim Dax: That's almost like saying - i didn't see the first few movies of Alien - but saw the end of Aliens 3 and when Ripley dies.. I just didn't feel the anguish i should have - i just didn't care about her at all...
Well... no. I am unable to care precisely because I saw most of the previous 57 or so episodes.
I don't care not because I'm unfamiliar with the characters. I don't care because I am familiar with them and I consider most of them idiots.
quote: i personally - think that, creatively, Enterprise is a great series. I won't elaborate - because we'll probly disagree... But after watching 7 seasons of Voyager - this is a breath of fresh air...
I think it's mainly a matter of liking certain series and simultaneously being aware of it's flaws. For the example, I like Voyager. Hell, I even think that "Treshold" was nice episode. Scary, huh?
But at the same time I'm aware that in the eyes of many, many people Voyager is bad. So, apparently I like Voyager more than most of the people
And this is one more reason for me to dislike B&B - their work on Enterprise has forced me to admit that my favourite series is not the best Trek series...
quote:As far as Porthos' role.. he holds the camera!! Porthos: "And-a-ACTION!"
Posted by Alshrim Dax (Member # 258) on :
Ya.. I hear ya. I think that's what's great about Trek - and sometimes we loose sight of it - but everyone is different, and we all connect differently to various characters and plot lines.
Trek has something for everyone.
And actually - i didn't mind the ep, Threshold. That was one of them that I liked ... probably because it stretched the envelope a little. But still my fave Voyager was ONE. They were inspired when they wrote that episode.. and i think that this last Ep of Enterprise had the strong points from the Ep: ONE.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by TheWoozle: I wonder if Tripp has Sim's memories... In the end, I wondered how Tripp felt about being cloned? Considering the operation and coma, he was probobly barely on his feet at all.
Nah, that would make less sense than Sim having Trip's memories. As laughable as is the idea that all your memory gets written into your DNA (then why don't your kids remember even bits of what you knew?), it's even less believeable that Tripp would get Sim's memories by osmosis. After all, the DNA went from Trip to Sim, not the other way around.
God, the "science" on these shows sucks...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Uh....Trip got a chunk of Sim's brain.
....altough it'd be extremely unlikely that he got any of Sim's memories, Trip might be wondering why T'Pol keeps staring at his crotch...
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Uh....Trip got a chunk of Sim's brain.
....altough it'd be extremely unlikely that he got any of Sim's memories, Trip might be wondering why T'Pol keeps staring at his crotch...
Yes., you're right about the transplant. Regardless Sim's 100% Trip's DNA and encoded memories Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Great episode, but I didn't buy the Angry Confrontation scene. Now, if Archer had said something about not wanting his best friend to die, it might have sat a little better with me. But his sole cause for agitation being the Xindi threat? Hollow, somehow.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrNeutron: Yes, you're right about the transplant. Regardless Sim's 100% Trip's DNA and encoded memories (shudder), whereas Trip gets bits of Sim's. Still, bad bad science.
There was a glitch in my repvious response that caused it not to display the full text. I fixed it above.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Great episode, but I didn't buy the Angry Confrontation scene. Now, if Archer had said something about not wanting his best friend to die, it might have sat a little better with me. But his sole cause for agitation being the Xindi threat? Hollow, somehow.
Well....he's be quite the favoritist if he only cloned his BEST FREIND to save his life. I mean, fuck, soon Mayweather will expect the same treatment, and that's just not gonna happen.
Now I could see him getting all emotional if it was Hoshi that was cloned....mmmmmm....Hoshi. I'd sure inject her with my DNA. ...for medical purposes, of course.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I don't, of course, mean to imply that should be the only reason. But it seems like their friendship has gone largely unexamined, lately. And it makes more sense, to me, to get really emotional when dealing with small and concrete things, like the life of someone you care about, versus grand and vague notions like the death of your species.
Posted by Epoch (Member # 136) on :
Kazeite, atleast you are honest about what you think of the episode. However I find it interesting that you still watch a show that you dislike. My big question would be Why. Why do you choose to waste your time on a show that brings you nothing?
Anyway I disagree with your assessment of the show. I have enjoyed it since day one. Yes there have been episodes I didn't like but that is normal for any show.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
I was asked this question many times before...
It was like that: I watched first season just because. It was Star Trek, after all. Even though I had bad feeling about it (after seeing Enterprise design, for example... You know, the usual and number one complain of typicalEnterprise basher ) I was willing to give this show a fair chance.
And, as you can suspect, I was very dissapointed.
Enter season two.
This one I watched precisely because I disliked Enterprise - I watched it so I could bash it on our own Polish IRC channel and complain how bad it is.
But then... something changed. I changed. I suddenly understood that I may not always be right - that my beliefs are not the only ones that may be true - ergo, conclusively, if there are people that like Enterprise and dislike Voyager, its their damn right. That is who we are. Like Alshrim Dax said, Trek has something for everyone. Everything has something for everyone.
This leaves us with season three.
I thought, maybe my approach was incorrect. Many times I searched for spoilers and reviews before I would be able to watch actual episode - so, naturally, I couldn't be suprised by the plot twists, for instance.
I developed this custom when watching Voyager - and it was I genuinely liked to compare my beliefs about episode with actual episode.
So, I decided to give Enterprise another choice. If I could change my approach to people with different tastes in sci-fi series, then maybe I could learn to like Enterprise? So, no more spoilers, no more premature reviews reading...
And, well... it didn't help much... at first. Like I said, maybe previous two seasons left too much hatred in me. But after few, well, I wouldn's say "good"... let's say mediocre s3 episodes I started to have hope.
Maybe this show won't suck so much (in my head). Meybe it will get better. After all, it can't get any worse, can it? And I understand one important thing - producers of Enterprise may, or may not be morons, may have lost the sight of what Trek is about, they may have no clue what is wrong with the Enterprise, but I can't say they aren't trying...
So, in short sentence: Why I dislike Enterprise? Because I think it doesn't realistically portray 2150 Trek universe.
And why I continue to watch it? Because I'm an optimist. Like I said, it can only get better. We had two bad seasons, let's see the good ones. Because it makes me laugh now. Honestly. It used to make me angry, but now I think it's not Berman and Bragas fault they make Enterprise in this fashion. Because right now actor got hang of characters they play. When previously Bakulas expression were limited to furrowing his brow, now he's starting to behave human. I like badass Archer better, even if I think that he makes lot's of silly things.
And even if episodes tech is one big distaster, then at least actors performance can help to salvage it.
And, last but not least... my father watches it.
I am a really, really lucky guy to have some like him as my father. We get along very nice... He understand me, I understand him. Generations problems my ass
We often watch some movies together, and the least I can do is to watch some Enterprise with him, right? (Especially that I don't share his passion for soccer ) I don't know if I would care to continue to watch Enterprise if I didn't had a partner in my father. (there are some s1 episodes that I didn't watch and certainly don't intend to watch).
And... that's why I still continue to watch Enterprise. Those reasons may perhaps sound silly to you. That's ok. They work for me. Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"...Shem's [that's what I thought his name was, what does CC say?]..."
It's "Sim". As in "similar" or "simulation". Or perhaps even as in "Similitude", considering that that's what they called the episode.
The ending credits even listed the variously-aged Sims as "Sim Trip age x".
[ November 23, 2003, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: TSN ]
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Too bad he couldnt have hooked up with T'Pol longer. It'd have been the Sim and the Bim.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Although, I didn't buy the angry Archer scene (But did you see that stubble? How about that mussed hair?), I was really glad they had it in there. I mean I liked that he was ready to drag Sim down there and cut open his head. That's unexpected. He's been such a goody-goody, and it was refreshing to see him be a little irrational, particularly with regards to his best friend. That was interesting human drama. I felt like Trineer played it a little too subtle in some spots. Like maybe it would have had more impact if Sim had been really fucked up about which emotions were his and which were Trip's. I also felt like him walking into sickbay was difficult to buy. Everything I've read about capital punishment makes me think there is something inherently impossible about willingly walking into certain unglorious death. I'm not saying that he should have been changing his mind, but he might have needed some help getting down to sickbay. Also the science behind Sim having Trip's memories was just, well, dumb.
Don't get me wrong, though. I thought it was a really cool morality play. I liked that he did attempt to escape. I liked that he attempted, but that because he was still so essentially Trip he couldn't. That's cool. And like maybe he just needed to know that he could have, that he was clever enough, Trip enough. Although I think the T'pol/Trip relationship REALLY strains credibility, I did like that she was ready to kiss the dead guy. They could have gone even further with that, but, you know. A good ep.
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
I expect that it would be different if you found out that your just a cheap copy, grown from a grub, specifically for the purpose of being harvested, and will only live for a week anyway. He was probobly kinda numb and in shock. Compare this story to the Schwartzennager movie 6TH DAY for the opposite side of the coin.
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