Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Berman & Braga talk Enterprise

This is topic Berman & Braga talk Enterprise in forum Other Television Shows at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://flare.solareclipse.net/ultimatebb.php/topic/4/7.html

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

http://www.trektoday.com/news/210501_04.shtml

quote:

Star Trek producers said today they hoped Enterprise would revitalise fan interest in the franchise by recapturing the original Star Trek spirit. "It's time to get back to the fundamentals of Star Trek."
Speaking to the Los Angeles Times, Rick Berman and Brannon Braga described the premise of Series V, which will be set approximately 100 years before the events in the original Star Trek series. "You'll see the first guys who go out into space, the Chuck Yeagers of space exploration," said Berman, referring to the aviator who first broke the sound barrier. "Fans will see all the things they recognize from Star Trek, but in the developmental phase."
Like Deep Space Nine and Voyager, which featured regular characters that were not in Starfleet, the new series will allow the producers to evade some of Gene Roddenberry's restrictions on conflict between characters. "The formula must evolve," said Braga, though acknowledging that an important part of the formula is that people in Star Trek are better. "(There) have been some attempts to alter that with Deep Space Nine and Voyager, arguably darker shows. Was that a mistake? Might have been. Do we want to just go back to the Next Generation formula? No way. We need a show that gives us everything."
But even if Enterprise will be bending the rules a little, Berman promised that the show would still preserve Roddenberry's optimistic vision of the future. "The Roddenberry perfection of humanity is in the process of happening but will be not completed when the series begins. That will enable us to do a show within the general umbrella of Star Trek, but eliminate some of the stumbling blocks."

What do Berman and Braga think are the "fundamentals of Star Trek?" - "To boldly go where we have gone before?" The statement that frightens me most is "Fans will see *all* the things they recognize from Star Trek" - Starfleet emblems, Romulans, Ferengi, Borg, holodecks, stable wormholes, transwarp? And the "developmental phase" may be an ironic hint that they are still heavily working on the premise while filming is already on the way. Note that it's currently 100 years before Kirk again. As if it wouldn't matter if it's going to be 2107 or 2167.

Finally, "bending the rules a little" is the understatement of the century. If, apart form all the screwed up continuity, "eliminate some of the stumbling blocks" means that they are going to draw a dark picture of humanity, they will definitely lose most of their fans. One of my main reasons to watch Star Trek is because it shows an idealistic and somehow idealized world - I would hate to see Star Trek submitting to the general blunt trend of stressing the evil side of humanity.

------------------
"There is an intelligent lifeform out on the other side of that television too."
(Gene Roddenberry)
Ex Astris Scientia

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Bernd, you are one of my favorite people. So I do not want you to take it the wrong way when I suggest that you seem to not be paying attention to what is actually being said, but to what you fear is going to happen.

------------------
OH NO< THE OLD MAN WALKS HIS GREEN DOG THAT SHOTS PINBALLS!~!!!
--
Jeff K
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet" and nothing at all will happen.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

quote:
"Fans will see all the things they recognize from Star Trek, but in the developmental phase."

Er ... see, he's not talking about the show being in the developmental phase, but the tech (transporters, etc) being in the developmental phase.

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
Card-Carrying Member of the Flare APAO
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.

Posted by crobato on :

This is supposedly one of the better aspects of the show. Can't you get it Bernd? People don't like to watch Utopias and the consistent ratings of shows like the X-Files, Law and Order, CSI and so on show that. They can't speak for you and you can't speak for them.

Like I said, targeting imperfect qualities of people, the technology and the society among them is one of the greater hopes of the show. If they can pull this off following these themes, (and not fly to another meet an alien once a week thing) they can pull it off. But I'm not optimistic so far with the premiere. They should have given us a better intro to the world and age instead of rushing to meet Klingons---there is a great sense of creative laziness in that script.

[This message has been edited by crobato (edited May 21, 2001).]

Posted by Wes (Member # 212) on :

Its the people that can watch a show without busting a fucking synapse because the klingons heads arnt bumpy enough that will become fans of this show. The trek fans that don't get upset cause they mentioned a stardate incorrectly or got the registry of the USS Prometheous wrong that will enjoy the show. People like bernd with thumbs up thier asses that only care about continuity can go off and be mad at people for making TV shows that apparently they have no choice but to watch.

IMO, if you dont even give the fucking show a chance because of some "continuity" problems, you really need to seek help. If you give the show a chance, you knows you may like it, if you dont, you dont have to watch it again. But grow up and get a life if continuity is all you care about.

------------------
Wes Button � [email protected]
TechFX Studios � The United Federation Uplink �
------------------
I don't like Wesley Crusher.

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

How long was it before Berman was going to say "This is like getting back to the original series..." He said it for DS9, he said it for Voyager - I mentioned that he would say it again for Enterprise... And guess what...

Does he think that that old chestnut will work again... and again. He just keeps going and going and going and going...

I'm SOOO going to have to pull out my old Magazines (before the net) which have interviews with Berman saying the exact same sentence "This new series will revitalise the fan intrest. It gets back to the feel and the spirit of the Original Series" I hacked it for DS9 - but DS9 was great in its own way. I waited for Seven years on Voyager - does he think that we all have year-long memory spans!?! Repugnant! POOP!

Andrew

------------------
Homer: I'm gonna miss Springfield. This town's been awfully good to us.
Bart: No, it hasn't, Dad. That's why we're leaving.
Homer: Oh, yeah. [pokes his head out the window] So long, Stinktown!

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Oh and when I said 'before the 'net' I didn't mean back in the sixties - you presumably pedantic people! (oohhh alliteration!)

I mean back in '92 or '95 before I got the net - before the net got REALLY popular.

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

Maybe I'm taking it all too literally (and yes, I noticed that "developmental phase" should refer rather to the fictional technology). It's just that they have made so many little errors in Voyager, and people other than me have been complaining all the time. I myself have always been rather lenient about that, since it was occasional and never impaired Trek continuity as a whole.

I usually wait for the result until I judge something, but this is different. Already the basic circumstances couldn't be worse. They have a premise that allows the fewest variety of stories and where it's possible that they make virtually everything wrong - and if they don't do it from the very beginning, time will do the rest. Seven seasons of the prequel will radically alter everything we know of the Star Trek universe. It will make look TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager like a parallel universe. They know it, nevertheless they do it. I bet that those who currently don't like Voyager, be it because of lacking new stories or because of lacking continuity, will hate "Enterprise".

As I said, it's not about single things like Klingon foreheads or specific technology, it's the concistency as a whole. Aside from that, but that's a personal preference, I just don't want to see the "old-tech" era (even if they don't mess with the tech).

------------------
"There is an intelligent lifeform out on the other side of that television too."
(Gene Roddenberry)
Ex Astris Scientia

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

I think Andrew has an excellent point...They keep trying to duplicate the success of TOS, but they certainly won't be able to do that by being just like TOS, because they can't. TOS already exists, and success requires something new and original.

------------------
Frank's Home Page
"There are also the diphthongs ae and oe, with no English counterparts; Tolkien actually suggests substituting ai and oi if you don't care about such details...but anyone reading this document probably does care about the details." - Sindarin information

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

I might point out that "New technology of the week" only seemed to happen on Voyager, and DS9 and TNG were perfectly capable of running seven years without constantly showing off new gadgets/particles/etc. Clearly, it's possible for Enterprise to do so as well and yet still be entertaining television. Will the writers fall back on them nonetheless? Possibly. I, like you, hope not.

------------------
"And as it is, it is cheaper than drinking."
-DT on arguing with Omega, April 30

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

They will need new technology (the famous [tech]), as well as new aliens (Westmore needs work) and new phenomena (acually many of the "phenomena" episodes are among my favorites when the ideas were still fresh). Even if it's only a small remark or a little bit of technobabble each time in "Enterprise", it will strike me that I have never heard of that before. Well, in some cases we may be able to claim that technology will get outdated or aliens will go into isolation, but it will be impossible to explain the lacking continuity of a whole series in this fashion.

------------------
"There is an intelligent lifeform out on the other side of that television too."
(Gene Roddenberry)
Ex Astris Scientia

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

quote:

They will need new technology (the famous [tech]), as well as new aliens (Westmore needs work) and new phenomena (acually many of the "phenomena" episodes are among my favorites when the ideas were still fresh).

Well, DS9 had about seven phenomena in seven years ("Q-Less," "Playing God," "Rejoined," "Meridian," "Children of Time," "Time's Orphan" and "One Little Ship" are the only ones that come to mind.) and didn't introduce a single new alien race after season 4. Just because Voyager had an excess of both of the above doesn't mean Enterprise will be doomed to follow on.

While admittedly a starship show will be more likely to have aliens of the week, I'm personally quite OK with seeing a few faces we haven't seen in TOS or TNG/DS9. It's a big galaxy, (after all, we basically never saw any races from TOS again aside from the Klingons, Vulcans and Romulans) and adding a few more faces won't ruin it for me. Yeah, seeing Andorians would be great, but I wouldn't consider the alien issue a cataclysmic show-wrecker.

As for the [tech] issue, I'm mildly encouraged by the producers' acknowlegement that excessive technobabble is distracting and should be trimmed, as well as the resulting downward swing of technobabble concentration in the last 2 seasons of Voyager. (At least, I've noticed it.) Here's hoping that this trend will continue into Enterprise. Bakula is reportedly on record as strongly against technobabble. It's another wait-and-see issue, I guess.

------------------
"And as it is, it is cheaper than drinking."
-DT on arguing with Omega, April 30

[This message has been edited by The_Tom (edited May 22, 2001).]

Posted by bear (Member # 124) on :

I would have been much happier with a Star Trek Section31, Temporal Commission, or Indiana Jones. I will watch the series just because I have never been able put down a sequel or continue incarnation of anything, but I definitely have my reservations about a prequel.

------------------
Access Password
47at
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/9268/index.html

[This message has been edited by bear (edited May 22, 2001).]

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

The_Tom: I agree that DS9 deviated from the usual phenomena/planet/alien/technology-of-the-week formula that unfortunately ruled much of TOS and TNG. It would have been no problem to give at least a few of the TOS and TNG aliens a second appearance, especially when it was decided in DS9 that explored space must be much smaller even as of 2370. If Berman and Braga manage to keep the new show limited to a certain small region of space with maybe a dozen new civilizations, no new technology, a minimum of technobabble and nothing that necessarily still has to be important in TOS, I will agree with it and even enjoy it. But I'm still very pessimistic. Unless they really switch to an arc format like in DS9, they will need the above features-of-the-week. It is an important part to the author's freedom of writing to invent new things and many interesting stories can be created this way. I am afraid that this kind of creativity (even if it's actually rehashed) will eventually rule over continuity.

------------------
"There is an intelligent lifeform out on the other side of that television too."
(Gene Roddenberry)
Ex Astris Scientia

Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :

I think I'm biased against Enterprise because I hate
what TPTB did to Trek with Voyager and that it is the same people that are responsible for Enterprise.
And even before the show has started, they already talk about bending the rules, messing up continuity, etc. while trying to evoke interest by saying (once more) how the show will be like TOS.

Am I the only one who thinks that TOS isn't even that great?
Sure, it started everything, and it's a good show, but when you watch it nowadays, a lot of things seem quite silly and outdated. Why does everything always have to be "like TOS" to be good and acceptable?

Secondly, like you Bernd, I don't like that low-tech approach.
I'm not at all interested in seeing all the tech we know in a developmental stage (and I too think that transporters really SHOULDN'T be around at that time).

But that's just my personal opinion and you all have every right to say that I just shouldn't watch the
show if I don't like it. I just wanted to see if I'm the only one (apart from Bernd and MIB, that is), who feels that way.

------------------
Kryten: Pub? - Ah yes. A meeting place where people attempt to achieve
advanced states of mental incompetence by the repeated consumption of
fermented vegetable drinks. - Red Dwarf "Timeslides"

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

TOS may look silly today, but it wasn't made today. It was made in the late sixties. And, at that time, it was cutting-edge. A Russian (at that time to be equated w/ "red commie bastard") on the bridge? The idea was absurd to most people in the US then, but Trek showed that the future could be different, w/o the hang-ups of the society of the time. A white man kissing a black woman? If he walked down a street in the South doing that, he'd probably be shot. But the people making TOS had the guts not only to suggest equality would be possible in the future, but to actually show it in action.

These things may be nothing to us today, but back then they were quite radical. This is the quality that people would like to see recaptured.

Of course, when TPTB say ENT will be like TOS, they probably mean "Look! Real buttons!". But that's missing the point. The reason something should be like TOS is what I said above.

------------------
"Even the colors are pompous!"
-a friend of mine, looking at a Lexus brochure

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

TOS tackled controversial subjects through a science-fictional medium. The problem with the world of 35 years later is, are there any controversial subjects left? A lot of topics now come up on contemporary TV shows. . . of course, I live in the UK and we're used to much more daring TV than you get in the States. What doesn't get handled on TV enough? The homeless situation? Child abuse? Bestiality? Incest? Drugs? Pornography?

------------------
"If Morden is afraid of green penguins, and Draal is shown to have
access to them, a speculation would be that Draal will use them
against Morden in the future. However if Draal only has a purple
moose, saying that he could use it against Morden would be a story
idea."

- rastb5m FAQ

Phasers

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Maybe they could do an episode about the assholes who go around spoiling things for people ... *cough*BE!*cough*

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Geez there are a HEAP of problems in the world today, just because most of the public has become desensitised to those problems doesn't mean they aren't there.

Look at DS9, someone here called it an excuse for a 'space battle of the week'... if you though that then, woah, what did you miss on that show. Look at the world today, and there are wars everywhere... its crazy, I mean look a the middle east... Could we equate that with the Maquis!?!

DS9 wasn't just about war - although it did confront the viewer with the HORRORS of war... much more than any other Sci-fi show has done... more than B5... more than a LOT of shows... Then we also get faith and religion with Worf and Especially Kira. We are confronted with Genetically Engineer humans and aliens... clones of people - kill one - another comes along. What about a lot of youth today, a lot of people feel like they 'don't belong'... look at Odo. The 'odd man out'... look at Nog. What about love against all odds... Worf/Jadzia Nog/Leeta Moogie/Zek Sisko/Cassidy Kira/Bariel. What about a single parent raising his son, while still trying to get the job done. There are so many more. Prejudice... of the Ferengi by the 'perfect hew-mons' against odo 'the shifter' Bajorans against Cardassians... There was so much to that show...

Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :

Thank you, oh root-vegetative one. You described the qualities I loved from TOS succinctly.

------------------
Faster than light - no left or right.

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

In the 60's, TOS was much more visionary, much more progressive, much more "universal" than is any other Star Trek series with respect to its time. On the other hand, if "darker stories", as always announced for DS9 and Voyager and now for Enterprise, should be the reaction to our (pessimistic?) present time (and to other scifi series with such a basic atmosphere), I wouldn't enjoy it any more either. With respect to the vision of a bright future this would be a throwback, and there could be nothing worse to the idea of Star Trek.

If they really wanted to make a show with a new or an extended vision, then going back in time was exactly the wrong approach. I would have to view it, but I expect the announced more "contemporary" (to our time) characters in Enterpise to be more sexist, racist and overall narrow-minded than what we have seen in all other Trek series.

The mostly American crew of the ship is probably because a lack of imagination and also an attempt to appeal to the average young male American viewer, but it could be also taken as a sign that nationalism is still ruling Earth - Americans and Vulcans as opposed to the uncivilized rest of the world. I'm not saying this will be the case, but knowing how America is still being glorified even in the 24th century I will watch Enterprise even more carefully. Why am I dead sure that the first contact with a Klingon will take place in the USA- probably in Montana or San Francisco?

The usual disclaimer: Note that this doesn't include and is not meant to include any offense to the USA and its citizens. It's just that I expect, especially in a series that goes out into space and deals with lots of aliens, there should be people, places and customs outside the USA too.

------------------
"There is an intelligent lifeform out on the other side of that television too."
(Gene Roddenberry)
Ex Astris Scientia

Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :

I've talked with you recently Bernd about the US dominance in Trek, and agree. And TPTB should now take into account that Trek isn't simply an American show anymore, but a global phenomenon, and has been for years, and they should take other nationailities and cultures into account, even though these other nations aren't the primary market for the show. If they want to portray a realistic world of the future, they ought to make it damn well realistic, and acknowledge other terrestrial races/nations.

As far as ENT being set in this darker pre-Federation world, I think it deserves television treatment, although I have a tangible sense of cynicism about it. But if we are to enjoy and appreciate the near utopian 24th century et al, we should see how 'we got there' by showing the beginning stages of how Earth and it's post WWIII citizens began to rediscover their humanity by embracing a greater galactic community -by exploring space and mixing with new alien races.

There can be no premise more intriguing and exciting than this. But I just can't see them pulling it off to everyone's satisfaction. They're never going to be able to do that. The Trek continuity and consistency that's been played out over 35 over years may end up being shot to pieces. The chronology ISN'T a toy to be messed about with by any writer of the week that comes in and makes up a load of contradictory stuff, it's an institution that should be honoured and respected, Sure they're not going to get everything right even if they tried, but they ought to make an effort to at least try to be faithful to it. That goes for technology as well as alien races, historical events etc.

But as my mom used to say when I fought my brother when I was a kid - " It'll end in tears".... Enough said.

------------------
"Synthetic scotch, synthetic Commanders...."
-Scotty

http://www.trekmania.net

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

Hi Mark!

At least they have one British officer aboard. Since it seems to be a British actor, even the accent may be correct.

------------------
"There is an intelligent lifeform out on the other side of that television too."
(Gene Roddenberry)
Ex Astris Scientia

Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :

Hi Bernd!

Yes, they'll be a Brit on board. But Trek hasn't been too successful with portraying the British. Yes we drink lots of ale, sing songs and play darts. But we're not obsessed with the Battle of Britain, Robin Hood and James Bond!

This Brit character's supposed to be some gung-ho commando. From what I can tell I'm not all that optimistic about it.

As for all other nationalities I reckon from what we've seen, the only survivors of the Trek universe's World war Three were the American's (of course), the British and the Irish. No-one else survived to make it into the 24th century!! At least according to TPTB

------------------
"Synthetic scotch, synthetic Commanders...."
-Scotty

http://www.trekmania.net

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

America doesn't want to know jack SHIT about other nations.

England, Scotland, & Ireland? Sure, they're great! Good bear, funny accents, we kicked ther asses in 2 centuries & saved them twice in the past one. ("'WHALES?' There's a country for them now?")

Canada is exactly like us. The Mexicans won't be shown as long as there's no menial labor to do in the 24th century.

Japan? You mean those guys with the big ears aren't Japanese? They all look the same to me.

Russians? Maybe they starved. ("What about Chekov?") Who? ("Chekov. The guy who looked like Davy Jones.") Oh, yeah! They had a Monkee on the show! They shoulda stuck with THAT.

The French? Maybe we refused to save their cheese-eatin' surrender monkey asses after the next time Germany decided to pay them a visit.

Yes, that's how TV-Land views the American populace. As long as the racial tokens are there, nationalities & cultures don't matter. Sadly, it's true. Which is why I now have 2 wonderfully authentic Icelandic sim characters.

------------------
"'I don't CARE who started it, I'm tired, and I WANT QUIET!!!!! Or I'm going to come up there and flatten the BOTH of you!' And he meant it. And we'd stop. Or he would." --Foreign policy as laid down by First of Two's dad

Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :

We forgetting Sulu and Uhura...? Or the captains of the Yorktown and the Saratoga in Star Trek IV...? Or Dmitri Valtane...? Or Demora Sulu and the nameless Lieutenant on the Enterprise-B...? Or Admirals Morrow and Cartwright...? Or Captain Tryla Scott, Captain Benjamin Sisko, and various other high-ranking officers in the contemporary era...? Don't make me name them all.

--Jonah

------------------
"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

quote:
We forgetting Sulu and Uhura...?

Sulu was American. Uhura was never really established.

quote:
Or Demora Sulu

See above.

quote:
and the nameless Lieutenant on the Enterprise-B...? Or Admirals Morrow and Cartwright...? Or Captain Tryla Scott,

Bit players played by non-white American actors? Wow. How progressive.

quote:
Captain Benjamin Sisko

Last time I checked, New Orleans was in the US.

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

Here's a list of supposed non-Americans:

Atoa - Polynesian
Chang - some sort of Asian?
D'Amato - Italian?
Gaetano - Italian?
Giotto - Italian?
Guisti - Italian?
Ilario - Latino?
Jaeger - German?
M'Benga - African?
Mendez - Latino?
Muniz - Latino?
Nakamura - Japanese
Nechayev - Russian?
O'Brien - Irish
Ishikawa (Keiko) - Japanese
Picard - French
Quinteros - uncertain?
Scotty - Scottish
Yar - Russian?

I may have missed a few. On the other hand, several of the above could be Americans too. Generally we get anything but an impression that there is something like a United Earth. There are many more aliens in Starfleet than human foreigners.

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

Yar is Ukrainian, as is Nechayev (Russian would be Nechayeva, but...whatever.) Chang would be Chinese & CDR Orfil Quinteros is Spanish (NOT Egyptian).

Posted by Balalaika Gap (Member # 36) on :

Yeah, but they sounded like they were American...

Posted by J (Member # 608) on :

Excusing the good poster Shik, Americans know more than he is assuming.

Wales [no h] is part of Britian, conquered some time ago. Canadians aren't exactly like Americans, and they don't like being assumed as such.

As for the rest of his statements--- shouldn't white hoods be left at the index page?
_____

Back to topic, Earth's United government did not exist until 2113, and there were some holdouts, such as Australia which didn't join until 2150. This means that Australians need "special" explainations to appear on an Earth ship, since technically they should serve on Australian ships. At the same time there should be other countries that hold out--- otherwise it just doesn't make much sense

[ May 28, 2001: Message edited by: J ]

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

It was-- ::: pauses & thinks ::: No. Never mind. If I have to keep fucking explaining myself to those who walk the path, then fuck it.

Figure it out on your own. knobhopper.

Yes, I DO feel better now, thank you very much for asking.

EDIT NOTE: Fucking stupidass motherfucking face shit.

[ May 28, 2001: Message edited by: Shik ]

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

Actually, J, I think Crusher was speaking hypothetically about Australia staying out of the United Earth gov't at the time of it's formation. It's been a while since I saw "Attached," though...

Posted by Tech Sergeant Chen (Member # 350) on :

Just because they sound like Americans doesn't mean they are. IMHO, it's more insulting to have characters like Chekov, whose command of English is imperfect, to say the least. If one were to assume that English will become the global language, as it seems on its way to becoming, then why shouldn't everyone on 22nd to 24th century Earth speak perfect English in addition to their native language? Moreover, why would somebody with the incredible mental capacity of a Vulcan still speak with a foreign accent like T'Pau?

Or as the story in the New York Times went, a young girl was complimented on being bilingual. She corrected that she was trilingual. The elder asked if she knew what somebody who spoke only one language was called. The response: an American.

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

I agree about the devaluing accent of Chekov. There's no reason why foreign persons shouldn't speak perfect English if even aliens do. Unfortunately, in a time when Earth has just been united (with the exception of Australia) and before the universal translator, we will either see only Americans or foreigners like Chekov.

Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :

There was an exchange student in my high school that I was rather sweet on. Her name was Paula and she was a Nederlander. And after spending a year in America, she had no trace of an accent, had adopted most of our colloquialisms, and said shortly before her return to Europe that she was having trouble remembering how to speak Dutch.

The point of an accent showing an imperfect mastery of a different tongue is well-taken. I don't consider the lack of an accent to definitely imply a native-English-speaker, on Trek or in Reality-Land. And all that considered, let's look at those characters who do have some trace of an accent.

Captain Alexander of the Saratoga (TVH), Fleet Admiral Shanthi, and even Uhura all have a noticable lilt to their voices, which I attribute to African heritage -- and indeed, in background and fandom material, Uhura is said to be from "The United States of Africa".

The Captain of the Yorktown (TVH) has a noticable Indian accent, but I attribute that to fatigue and thinning air.

That was also a good rundown of non-WASP characters up there, to which I would also add:

Sonya Gomez
Ayala
Chakotay
Jean-Luc Picard (despite being portrayed by a British actor)
Marlena Moreau
Nagata (from "Trials and Tribble-ations")
T'su
Sergey Rozhenko (he WAS in Starfleet, remember?)

I'm tired now, so I'm not going to try to remember any more...

--Jonah

Posted by Light from a Cake (Member # 36) on :

Chekov spoke better English than many Americans, in my experience...the accent is irrelevant.

Posted by Tech Sergeant Chen (Member # 350) on :

Right. Repeat after me:

Nuclear wessels. Nuclear wessels.

Posted by Killboy Powerhead (Member # 36) on :

And we knew exactly what he meant. (I should point out that the orthography in question represented a bilablial approximant long before it became a labiodental fricative in some germanic languages.)

Posted by J (Member # 608) on :

Uh, it was Picard that said Australia didn't join till 2150 [at least this is what my chrono says, though I haven't seen TNG in at least two years so I'm not sure].

Beyond that, I think we should leave a few countries out besides Australia. Many of the Oriental nations would be suffering from the postatomic horror court systems just 20 years earlier. I think it would be a good idea to keep most of them out of the Earth Gov for the first few years. The Middle Eastern and Central Asian countries were also hard hit by this period, they might not be organized enough to join until later.

All in all, the Europeon Hermogeny and most the countries in the Americas might be the only areas that join as soon as Earth Gov is formed. I can't think of anything with the African nations at the moment either... except maybe those in the extreme north-east for the same reason the Central Asian countries should not be in, they are probably not organized enough after the conflict.

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

From what I can recall of "Attached," Picard and Crusher are having a conversation, discussing the implications of a nonunited planet joining the Federation. Crusher says something to the effect of "Suppose one of the old nation-states on Earth, say, Australia, didn't join the United Earth government in 2113." But if the Chronology differs, then perhaps my memory is faulty.

On other parts of Earth not joining: I'm not sure. Considering ST:FC says that poverty, disease etc. will be pretty much gone by the 2110s, I'd seriously question the idea that Africa or Asia would somehow be too "primitive" to join a United Earth gov't in 2113.

And in response to the discussion above: what exactly is unaccented English? I mean, Trek's most famous Frenchman apparently learned to speak English with a Yorkshire accent. Who's to say the slight lilt we hear in Uhura or Shanthi isn't newscaster-grade English in parts of Africa? Is everyone who doesn't sound like an American somehow screwing up the language?

Posted by Tech Sergeant Chen (Member # 350) on :

We may have known what Chekov meant, but why couldn't he say what he meant? Do you really think he's so stupid he can't use the proper phoneme? I'm just an ignorant American, but I even I know enough to be able to properly pronounce Werner von Braun, karaoke, Mauna Kea, vino bianco, joyeux no�l, Thessaloniki and La Jolla, among other foreign words. Not to mention several dialectic variations of English. If I can do that, why can't a graduate of Starfleet Academy get one simple sound right?

Posted by Killboy Powerhead (Member # 36) on :

OTOH, I imagine your mastery of palatal and velar fricatives (German ch) is less developed.

How would you pronounce "Werner von Braun," BTW?

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

"Throatwarbler Mangrove."

Posted by Tech Sergeant Chen (Member # 350) on :

You're missing the point. I never claimed to be a polyglot. But I do know that the American pronunciations are incorrect. Certainly not "werner vawn brawn," which has six phonetic errors to my American ear and probably more to the German ear. The point is that Chekov should know better, if he's as smart as he's supposed to be. If you immersed me in German society, I can almost guarantee you my passable fricatives would become quite good within weeks or months, even if nobody will ever mistake me for a native. And yet Chekov, spending decades among anglophones, still can't manage a simple, proper V? That's insulting to intelligent Russians everywhere. I've known some Russian immigrants, and not a single one of them had that problem.

[ May 29, 2001: Message edited by: Tech Sergeant Chen ]

Posted by Killboy Powerhead (Member # 36) on :

I see what you mean, but if he spoke only Russian for the first part of his life, his ability to realise unfamiliar sounds might be stunted (especially if it were not requested of him).

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

quote:
And yet Chekov, spending decades among anglophones, still can't manage a simple, proper V?

Define a proper "V". V sounds different in Cheapside and Chattanooga and Calgary and Cairns.

Assuming English does become a universal second language to the world, who's to say more regional pronounciations develop that incorporate some of the nuances of the indigenous language? For instance, many Africans, Indians and Afro-Caribbeans today speak English fluently as a first or second language but still incorporate distinct elements of local languages which surface in the form of accents. If you want a specific example, most well-educated people in India have spoken English since childhood and continue to do so on an everyday basis and yet still speak with what we dub as a distinctly East Indian accent. Until they stop sounding like Apu, are they not speaking "proper" English?

It's a simple fact that in many Eastern European languages V's and W's are interchangeable. If English becomes more widely spoken, who's to say an English-speaking Russian won't get in the habit of pronouncing V as W when speaking to an English-speaking-Pole or another English-speaking-Russian? If anything, the more people that speak a certain second language in an area, the less likely they are to aspire to sound like one regional accent elsewhere (ie. American English or Australian English) and the more likely they are to be perfectly fine with sounding like all their English-speaking neighbors, resulting in the emergence of a local dialect that firmly includes such examples of "improper" English pronounciations. This happened in South Africa, Kenya, Jamaica and India. Why is it unreasonable to think it will happen in Russia?

To go back to Chekov, let's assume he grew up from childhood speaking both Russian and this Russian-accented English. Why would he feel any need to radically change his pronounciation when he went to Starfleet Academy at 17 or whatever and heard Americans and Brits speaking English in their accents? Indeed, even if he wanted to, keep in mind that accents, especially accents-within-a-language, are incredibly firm things once one leaves childhood. My parents still sound distinctly Irish and yet my family has lived in Canada for years and years. If they had come to Canada speaking no English whatsoever they'd be far more likely to have learnt to speak English with a so-called "broken" Canadian accent. But seeing as their English is already serviceable anywhere in the world regardless of local accent, why even try to change, assuming they could? The same with Chekov.. if he already spoke serviceable English in his own little Russian way that most Russians spoke it why even try to make himself sound like someone's definition of "proper" English?

Posted by Killboy Powerhead (Member # 36) on :

"Define a proper "V". V sounds different in Cheapside and Chattanooga and Calgary and Cairns."

Actually...it doesn't. The modern English V is the orthographical equivalent of a voiced labiodental fricative (although feel free to point out exceptions).

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

Care for some wittles, Frank? Or should I say, vittles?

Posted by Totalimmortal (Member # 36) on :

Reference?

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

Dickens.

Posted by Tech Sergeant Chen (Member # 350) on :

A high level of proficiency in the common language of Starfleet, whatever it is, should be mandatory. Otherwise you risk an exchange like the conference in "The Right Stuff" where LBJ couldn't understand what the German lead engineer was saying. "A spaceman?" "A specimen!" "Jimp, what's a jimp?" "A chimp, an ape!" Not the kind of misunderstanding you want in combat. Just saying Chekov speaks better English than Bubba in Florida isn't good enough, unless you don't mind Bubba at Tactical.

BTW, if you're referring to Great Expectations, wasn't the word actually "victuals" but pronounced "vittles"? I don't recall seeing it spelled wittles.

[ May 30, 2001: Message edited by: Tech Sergeant Chen ]

Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :

I'd also like to point out that Chekov wasn't simply blurring a "V" sound into a "W" sound -- he was transposing the two. In the same movie, not too long after asking after those "nuclear wessels" he is heard to ask "the top of vhat?"

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

I'm not sure what the accent is, but a lot of characters in Dickens' books pronounce 'v' like 'w'. Usually, they tend to be the less-educated characters, if that means anything. As a matter of fact, let me grab my copy of A Tale of Two Cities. Jerry Cruncher talks like that all the time...

"'... I might have made some money last week instead of being counterprayed and countermined and religiouslt circumwented into the worst of luck. ...and I won't put up with it, Aggerawayter, and what do you say now!'"

Note the spelling used to reflect the pronunciation of "circumvent" and "Aggravater". And, as was mentioned another popular one is "vittles"/"wittles" (yes, the real word is "victuals"). I read Dickens a lot, and this sort of shows up quite often.

BTW, I know a girl who's from Bosnia, but she's lived in the US for, I think, around eight years or so now (since she was, I guess, around eleven). She still has a very thick accent, and, in the couple years I've known her, I don't think it's become any more "American". So, just because someone is around people w/ a certain accent, it doesn't mean theirs will change.

Posted by Banana Fish (Member # 36) on :

As I mentioned, v used to be a bilabial approximant (modern w), but it has since changed to a fricative in modern germanic languages. The thing in Dickens would be a transitional stage.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Another thing I've just thought of... There are a lot of people in this country (the US) who speak w/ foreign (i.e. non-English-speaking native) accents, and it's pretty much accepted. When I hear people speaking w/ an accent that clearly belies the fact that they grew up w/ a different language, I don't find any problem w/ it, as long as they're understandable (refer to the bit about my friend in my post above). But, if people here try to pronounce foreign words, and they do it w/ an American accent, they seem to be considered "stupid Americans". To cite a previous example, people who say "wuhr-nuhr vahn brawn" instead of "vehr-nuhr fawn brown" are considered wrong, while someone who would pronounce my name (Tim Nix) to sound almost like "teem neex" would just have an accent. So, if someone from, say, Germany, can come over here and pronounced their 'w's like 'v's, and rolled their 'r's, and all that, and be "right", couldn't I go to Germany and greet someone w/ "guh-ten tagg, wee sihnd see?", rather than "goot-uhn tahk, vee zihnt zee?", and not be laughed at?

Maybe I'm imagining things, but I've always gotten the impression that pronouncing foreign words w/ an American accent is considered "wrong", while pronouncing English words w/ a foreign accent is okay. Why is that?

BTW, I only used the German example because I took five years of German classes, so I know more about it than other languages (except English, of course). It was just an example.

[ May 31, 2001: Message edited by: TSN ]

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

Yeah, the specific example I had in mind was Magwich (sp?) from Great Expectations, but I think Tim has suitably explained otherwise.

quote:
A high level of proficiency in the common language of Starfleet, whatever it is, should be mandatory. (...) Just saying Chekov speaks better English than Bubba in Florida isn't good enough, unless you don't mind Bubba at Tactical.

In anycase, what this boils down to is the question of at what point does bad English become English in a different accent. Brits could quite logically claim that even what gets said on the American nightly news, let alone down in the Bayou, is a bad pronounciation by butchers of their language. But they don't.

Considering English is already spoken in hundreds of different accents on Earth today, I can't see Starfleet forcing everyone to sit down and learn Queen's English or Jim Lehrer English just so everyone can understand one another. I've already outlined above how the expansion of English could (and probably would) create new accents, and presupposing that the Starfleet elocution police should deem some acceptable and others not is a little out-of-line.

[ May 31, 2001: Message edited by: The_Tom ]

Posted by Tech Sergeant Chen (Member # 350) on :

quote:

Maybe I'm imagining things, but I've always gotten the impression that pronouncing foreign words w/ an American accent is considered "wrong", while pronouncing English words w/ a foreign accent is okay. Why is that?

I think it's your imagination. But it could also be that when Americans speak foreign words, they generally appropriate them and have the attitude of "this is the way it will be pronounced irrespective of how the Germans (for example) say it." Immigrants, OTOH, aren't trying to "corrupt" English. It's an individual thing, with each mispronouncing words in a slightly different way.

[ May 31, 2001: Message edited by: Tech Sergeant Chen ]

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

TSN: I think it's the same in most countries or languages that people accept foreigners or immigrants who have not yet managed to pronounce everything correctly - well, maybe except for France where they talk even faster once they notice your French isn't very good

Anyway, I wouldn't compare this to the pronounciation of single foreign words, especially names. In Germany, for instance, no one cared about the pronounciation of foreign words a couple of decades ago, which one can notice in old movies. Nowadays, everyone seems to be keen on pronouncing everything correctly, as if it's a matter of honor. But especially from the TV news one may expect that. Well, you may go on calling me "Burnd Snyder". :-)

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

BTW, it always bothered me that Jean-Luc Picard was not correctly pronounced "Jong-L�ck Peekahr", but "John-look Pee-card".

Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :

Ooh, Bernd is so sexy speaking in a French accent. . . 8)

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

They tried the accent a few times. Q sounded silly & Riker sounded dumber than usual.

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

While the hard "d" on the end of Picard did creep in, the Jean-Luc wasn't generally all that bad.

And Stewart spoke French with a half-decent accent, when called upon to do so (mainly in the early years).

Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :

I thought Q got the pronounciation right in 'Tapestry', ie John Luck Pikud.

LOL!

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

Maybe the correct version was "Mr. Pickerd" like in "Time's Arrow".

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Bernd: I'm well aware of how to pronounce your name. As I said, I took five years of German class. While my grammar is questionable, and my vocabulary is lacking, I do know the pronunciation rules. Doesn't mean I can say the words w/o an accent, but I do know how it should be, even if my mouth doesn't. *L*

[ June 01, 2001: Message edited by: TSN ]

Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :

BTW: Regarding "unaccented" english.

True non-accented English is only spoken in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada.

Evidence?: Wherever I travel other people have an accent, but when I'm home, no one does. (Of course, when I'm in LA, everyone thinks I'm a native)...

Seriously, Due to the pervasiveness of Hollywood, most people hear English on TV and motion pictures with a westcoast accent - even if the character is supposedly from Mississippi or historical Europe. My hat is off to Costner - how he kept his corn-belt rasp as Robin Hood is beyond me. He attempted an English accent for only one word in the entire movie: "armor".

Posted by Reginald Barclay (Member # 594) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Killboy Powerhead:
I see what you mean, but if he spoke only Russian for the first part of his life, his ability to realise unfamiliar sounds might be stunted (especially if it were not requested of him).

Pardon me for butting in here, but you guys are really reaching with this stuff about whether a "v" is always a "v" or whether Chekov could enunciate such a sound. It's obvious he's familiar with the sound. He doesn't identify himself as Powell Chekow.

Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :

To add to Reg Barclay's point, a little while after Chekov says the infamous line 'nuclear wessels' in Trek IV, he says, 'I'm sorry, then I vill have to stun you' - or words to that effect. So he obviously can pronounce the V correctly. Why he couldn't apply it to the word 'vessel' I haven't a clue.

BTW. Non-accented English doesn't exist outside Britain. We invented the damn language, it's everyone else who has an accent!

lol

Posted by bear (Member # 124) on :

Non-accented English by region is typically thought of as Midwestern American trait. As much as we can thank or blame British for their fine language, I don�t believe Americans would agree that the Queens English is non-accented, but that is simply an opinion. Chekov�s speech impediment was really nothing more than a cinematic prop to draw attention to the gravity of the situation. I would say that Chekov�s accent fits well with someone wrestling with a second language in a high stress or unfamiliar situation. Americans in general absolutely love accents so the fact that Chekov flubbed vessels only makes the character that much more appealing.

Posted by Tech Sergeant Chen (Member # 350) on :

I stand by my contention that it insults Russians to give Chekov a bad accent and it insults me if TPTB say I need to hear a bad accent to accept a character as a non-American. IIRC, a reviewer of TOS in the 1960s called Chekov's and Scotty's accents "vaudevillian."

Can't say as I really love accents as a American, either. I once knew a Russian blonde, abso-freakin-lutely drop dead gorgeous from head to toe, but it was frustrating trying to cut through her thick accent (which BTW sounded nothing like Chekov's).

Posted by Stingray (Member # 621) on :

quote:
BTW. Non-accented English doesn't exist outside Britain. We invented the damn language, it's everyone else who has an accent!

Actually, the British used to speak English like Americans do today. Only since the Revolutionary War have the British shifted their pronunciation to what it is today. So actually, ours is the right way of speaking English! HA!

BTW: I am from New Jersey, not New Joisey.

Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :

'That's a joke, son.' The funny part wasn't that he had an accent. It was that here was this strung-out aging Davy-Jones look-alike approaching recently post cold-war Americans and asking them where he could find their nuclear vessels in a ridiculous Russian accent.

That is to say that while Chekov and Scotty (and countless other preposterous caricatures from all the series) may have spoken funny, they were never merely comic foils. These characters were crucial members of the crew. Their accents may have made their characters more palatable to intensely xenophobic American audiences. (Before anyone goes jumping down my throat, I would hasten to point out that although the people who post to this board may come from diverse backgrounds, one could harldy say we roundly or in any way completely represent the popular viewing audience.)

That's the real trick. These shows were made and continue to be made for American audiences. That's why they tend to be so American-centric. I mean that's why we have the American Scott Bakula and not the Chinese Chow Yun Fat or the Indian Rani Mukherjee as the new Captain. You didn't see Tarkovsky casting James Coburn in "Solaris" (Well for a number of reasons, really). It's about what sells to your audience. Unfortunately, American audiences tend to be a little reactionary. The producers will try to be progressive, but they've got a show they are trying to make popular. They can only go so far before they start losing their audience. If they lose that, they lose their platform. It's a balancing act.

I mean would you expect the new crew to speak the international language of Esperanto? (Incidentally, we do know that Shatner can do Esperanto (see:Incubus) I don't think I'd be likely to watch a show in Esperanto on any regular basis (perhaps on a dare or if there was some elaborate drinking game involved) I seriously doubt anyone outside of the Esperanto-speaking community would.

I don't think anyone has touched TOS in terms of forward thinking, but I must say that I respect what the Trek producers have done of late. Colorful Captains, female commanders, etc. It's great. I can only hope that they will continue this tradition.

I will now set fire to this soapbox (SFTLP...)

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

"...recently post cold-war Americans..."

1986 was still during the Cold War, not after...

Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TSN:
1986 was still during the Cold War, not after...

Oh come on, we all knew it was over...

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

Ronny "Star Wars" Reagan, didn't, apparently.

Posted by Tech Sergeant Chen (Member # 350) on :

Any history book will tell you that the Cold War didn't officially end until the Soviet Union fell in 1991. In hindsight, with what we know now from Russian sources, it's easy to say they were ready to fall in 1986. Not so easy with what we the public knew back then. Anybody who says he knew is talking through his hat. It's like somebody walking down the street screaming the world is going to end tomorrow. He may be right, but he can't prove it to me.

Esperanto is a silly contrivance that will never replace English as the true international language. You can't impose a language on people. It doesn't work. You have to give them a language they can use in everyday life, that they can see on storefront signs, that can interface seamlessly with the International Scientific Vocabulary. Like it or not, English is that language. Nothing is more versatile. Sure, it's a hopeless mishmash of grammatical, spelling and pronunciation rules, but nobody said it's perfect, just the best.

As for female commanders, remember that in the final TOS episode, Janice Lester was once in line to become a starship commander. She didn't fail because she was a woman, she failed because she was mentally unstable. Not to mention there was always the famous Romulan commander. Tough as nails, but undeniably a woman. So latter-day Trek isn't as progressive as you think.

Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :

Note to self: THOROUGHLY research dates before posting...

Sorry, gents...

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

quote:
...and not the Chinese Chow Yun Fat

I thought it was because he was too busy doing the voice for Battlefield Earth: The Animated Series? Lord, how I wish I was joking.

Posted by Conspiracy of One (Member # 36) on :

"Esperanto is a silly contrivance that will never replace English as the true international language. You can't impose a language on people. It doesn't work."

French was imposed on the English, and now we're stuck with words like "you."

"Sure, it's a hopeless mishmash of grammatical, spelling and pronunciation rules, but nobody said it's perfect, just the best."

English definitely sucks.

Posted by Davok (Member # 143) on :

quote:
Like it or not, English is that language. Nothing is more versatile ... (It's) just the best.

Arrogance. Sorry, but this is pure arrogance. I completely agree that if there is one world language, it's English (even if there are much more Chinese-speaking people). But it's absurd to assume that this is due to the versatility of the English language or whatever. The reason is simply today's political and cultural domination of the U.S. ... In 17th century Europe, culture was dominated by France, so all the educated/rich people spoke French.
By the way, it is this arrogance that sometimes bothers me about "americanized" Star Trek.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Not only is it caused by "US domination" of culture these days, but also because the British Empire was so widespread that English ended up being spoken all the way 'round the globe. Britain, America, Australia, India...

The idea that English is so popular because it's an inherently good language is one of the most absurd things I've heard. English is one of the most difficult languages (if not the most difficult) to learn properly. Even most native speakers don't know how to speak it properly.

Posted by Tech Sergeant Chen (Member # 350) on :

So how about producing a better candidate? Did I say it was easy? No. Did I say it was perfect? No again. Did you give any other reason for badmouthing the language other than your personal feelings? I didn't see any.

ISV is overwhelmingly based on Latin. That immediately knocks all of the native languages of the Pacific Rim out of contention for heavy duty scientific work, unless you like seeing Kanji (for instance) mixed with Roman characters. Perhaps you prefer German. I never really liked the preponderance of long compound words in that language. I've seen entire paragraphs where 90% of the words were 12 or more letters long. French, perhaps? Even the French public doesn't like most of the words and phrases being coined by their cultural guardians in their efforts to stop English in its tracks. They find the new lexicography verbose and clumsy.

So where you find arrogance, I find cold, hard reality. You may say even native English speakers can't master the language. I defy you to find any language in the world that is perfectly used by all its speakers. Not even Esperanto can achieve that.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Ok people, when we start to show extreme emotional distress over grammer and language preferences, we're into what I believe psychologists term "seriously wack behavior."

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

"So how about producing a better candidate?"

Esperanto, as mentioned. Or any other invented language that doesn't have irregularities out the ass...

"Did I say it was easy? No. Did I say it was perfect? No again."

Did I say that you said either of those things? No, once more.

"Did you give any other reason for badmouthing the language other than your personal feelings?"

Yes, I did. I mentioned that it's a very very difficult language to learn properly.

[ June 12, 2001: Message edited by: TSN ]

Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :

'Battlefield Earth' animated series? Isn't that a sign of the apocalypse or something? Chow Yun Fat doing English voice overs? Isn't that the sign of something really bad?

Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :

I agree. English sucks. From now on, let's all start using Russian.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

"Nyet! Am seeink asbestos fibres first!"

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Chow Yun Fat isn't doing the English voiceovers. The show is being made in Hong Kong, as anime, and he's doing the voice of Terl there. I don't recall who is doing the English dubs. Somebody not nearly as famous, I guess.

Posted by Davok (Member # 143) on :

quote:
Did you give any other reason for badmouthing the language other than your personal feelings? ... Perhaps you prefer German.

No, you got me wrong. I neither want German to become a world language, nor French, nor Esperanto, nor Klingon. I like English, and I know about and accept its status as a lingua franca. I do not have any resentments about any language. I just wanted to express that it's arrogant to say that English was the most versatile -- whatever -- language. In lots of African countries, people speak French or English, but not because they realised those languages are better than their mother tongues, but because they were occupied by the French/English.