Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Series V Pilot Episode details!!!! $$$$$

This is topic Series V Pilot Episode details!!!! $$$$$ in forum Other Television Shows at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://flare.solareclipse.net/ultimatebb.php/topic/4/9.html

Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :

Trektoday has just posted a review of the first episode of Series V "Enterprise." http://www.trektoday.com/news/210401_05.shtml

Be afraid, be very afraid.

------------------
When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum

Posted by Gaseous Anomaly (Member # 114) on :

Lord God almighty...

1. I wonder what the Klingon will look like.

2. Why the hell was a lone Klingon chased to EARTH, of all friggin' places!?

3. [Insert prejudiced rant here]

Oh, look father; over yonder horizon comes one of Geoffrey's ships from the Spice Islands! It is doubtless laden with salt - let us take it!

------------------
At that point, McDonald fired his gun three times in the air to emphasize his point. The crowd, estimated at 350,000, loudly cheered the new candidate.

"Let me make this clear: I am the law! I am your ruler! And you will have fries with that, motherf*cker!"

Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :

Alright - assuming this is accurate, my opinion of the concept is much improved. The focus on a particular star system (ours) is something that hasn't been done since the early seasons of DS9, and one part of Trek that I actually have missed. Being able to watch the evolution of a species after First Contact will also be intriguing to watch - providing that we can see this and avoid the typical exploration themes we see in Trek, which are great but very strained after three series.

I'm still dreadfully afraid of how they're gonna much up the timeline, since Paramount ahs the worst track record for it. This one doesn't seem to be THAT bad, but over seven years we're bound to see a lot of mistakes.

Mark

------------------
"Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?"

- Carl Sagan, "Contact"

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Most notably that Klingon First Contact seems to have moved up by a few decades

I don't think we're goint to focus on a single system as much as DS9 did. We might spend more time in Sol then TNG, TOS, or VOY (especially VOY), but not as much time as DS9 did in Bajor, I think

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.

Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :

Actually, ironically enough VOY had more Earth-featured episodes than any of the other series...

But still, having a series taht is at least partially based at Earth (or *any* regular base of operations)will be interesting. In that sense, it's almost the antithesis of DS9 (about a ship with a base, instead of about a base with a ship) and something that wouldn't have been one before.

Mark

------------------
"Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?"

- Carl Sagan, "Contact"

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

It has potential. All is in the execution.

Though I would point out that I seem to recall suggesting something like this over a year ago.

A maximum speed of warp four works out to 64 times the speed of light on the old scale. That means that it'd take three and a half weeks to go from here to Alpha Centauri. I hope they fix that. Warp five would take nearly two weeks. Warp six, a week. Perhaps there's an inordinate amount of showtime between episodes? Or perhaps we have a number of bottle shows? Or perhaps we run into wormholes, or get technological upgrades from the Vulcans?

I also wonder, did they use stardates before the founding of the Federation?

I like the concept. It goes more the way of Earth: Final Conflict. It can explore how humanity is reacting to its first contact with an alien species, and how it deals with others. How does it change our lives?

------------------
"Omega is right."
-Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

The one thing no one has mentioned is how it'll be distributed--syndication or UPN (& if it's the latter, I'll never get to see it.)

------------------
"I'm beginning to think that there'll be NO forced mating at ALL!" --Professor Hubert T. Farnsworth

Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :

Sounds interesting, but given that we still don't have an official announcement about Series V, I'm just treating this as a rumor. However, I do have some thoughts on it...

1) If this takes place 5 to 10 years before the Federation exists, we should see part or all of the Romulan Wars.

2) The Suliban... Interesting concept, but if they were so involved in the early days of the Federation, why haven't we heard of them or seen them before? Did they get wiped out? What we might be seeing is a "Fall of the Roman Empire" effect, given the timeframe this is supposed to take place in. The Germanic tribes were invading the Roman Empire because they themselves were being driven from their traditional homes by invaders from Asia. Perhaps the Suliban are invading known space at this time because they are fleeing from an expanding Romulan Empire...

3) The appearance of Klingons. Berman has made it perfectly clear that continuity from TOS does not mean as much to him as continuity from the newer series, but given that the smooth/bumpy forehead thing was dealt with (well, sort of ) on DS9, I'm betting we'll see smooth forehead Klingons.

------------------
"The Long Kiss Goodnight begins, more or less, with Geena Davis being kicked in the head by a deer. This was the high point of the film."

- Sol System, 2/24/01

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

The only breaches of continuity thus far, as I see it anyway, is the moving-forward of the transporter and the Klingon first contact. The date of the invention of the transporter has always been pretty much Okudan speculation, and aside from the date given for transporter psychosis in "Realm of Fear" we have no unbreachable canonical early limit for it.

Klingon first contact was nailed down to the early years of the 23rd century by "First Contact," but I saw "Alliances" last night and it referred to "200 years of hostility with the Klingons," IIRC. If final and lasting peace with the Klingons didn't come till Narendra III, that number would be indicative of First Contact within a few decades of the 2150s, which isn't so bad after all. To be blunt, I think I'm with Braga on this one. It's one line of dialogue, and that shouldn't stop the writers from exploring a well-known and well-loved group like the Klingons.

Here's hoping they bring back the term UESPA to refer to the Pre-Starfleet Earth organization in charge of the Enterprise.

------------------
"I can be creative when I have a good idea. That just happens way too rarely."
-Omega, April 6

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

Oh, and its very possible the Suliban are still around in the 24th century... I mean, look how often we've seen races that are Federation members, for Chrissakes, a hundred years after TOS. Tellarites, anyone? Andorians? Orions? Tholians? Yes, the odd throwaway line, but nothing of substance. Having the Suliban eventually absorbed into the Federation as members and then having them "disappear" Tellarite-style is not at all out of keeping with the precedent set by Roddenberry.

------------------
"I can be creative when I have a good idea. That just happens way too rarely."
-Omega, April 6

Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :

Perhaps we have already seen a Suliban without noticing. Just think about the endless amount of unnamed alien species seen in the background on DS9 for example.

------------------
Kryten: Pub? - Ah yes. A meeting place where people attempt to achieve
advanced states of mental incompetence by the repeated consumption of
fermented vegetable drinks. - Red Dwarf "Timeslides"

Posted by Gaseous Anomaly (Member # 114) on :

*can't get the theme from "The Sullivans" out of my head now*

The transporter shouldn't be there, IMO. Even warp capable civilizations far in advance of 22nd Century Earth (eg the Vidiians) didn't have it, so why would a bunch of holocaust survivors that accidentally madde First Contact, even 50 years after it happened. (unless the Vulcans lent a hand, which going by the above doesn['t seem that likely)

------------------
At that point, McDonald fired his gun three times in the air to emphasize his point. The crowd, estimated at 350,000, loudly cheered the new candidate.

"Let me make this clear: I am the law! I am your ruler! And you will have fries with that, motherf*cker!"

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

The Vidiians had transporters. They beamed Neelix's lungs out of his chest, after all.

------------------
"Omega is right."
-Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM

Posted by Soontir_Fel on :

VERY sophisticated transporters. Beaming his lungs out without damaging them or the surrounding tissue. Talk about pinpoint precision.

------------------
"Asteroids do not concern me, Admrial. I want that ship, not excuses."

-Lord Darth Vader (Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back)

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Er, I don't think they beamed them out. They sliced them out with their all-in-one medical tool.

------------------
"Excuse me, Mr. Rampaging Killer? Why don't you put down the gun and take a look at this hand-held monkey? Does it not have clever little forepaws? It eats gum and sap!"
--
L. Fitzgerald Sj�berg
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet" and something pleasent will happen to you. Possibly involving syrup.

Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :

He probably meant the Kazon or perhaps some of the other races we have seen that seem to be fairly technologically advanced but don't have transporter technology.

All in all, I would have to agree. I think it is a little early for Earth to have transporters. It just doesn't seem to be in stride with level of tech at the time.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

The general idea behind the Kazon was that they weren't all that advanced. Their ships were huge because they didn't have all the nifty automation of a "modern" starship, and all their tech was liberated from their former masters anyway.

Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :

As I recall, the Kazon were a slave race that revolted and took the starships of their oppressors.

------------------
"Let me ask you something, Mr. Garibaldi, a purely philosophical question. On a scale of 1 to 10, how stupid do you think I am anyway?" - Bester
Federation Starship Datalink: Brand new look, fresh minty scent, same great taste!

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

No, the Vidiians used transporters. "Phage" was quite clear on that. No surgery. Neelix was just zapped, and his lungs were gone.

------------------
"Omega is right."
-Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM

Posted by Teelie (Member # 280) on :

I'm already not liking Series V. It's not even premiered yet and they're talking about mucking continuity up. I just hope none of it is true and they set it after TOS/TNG-Voy but not far into the future either.

------------------
�

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

It hasn't even aired yet. Exactly.

------------------
"Instructed by history and reflection, Julian was persuaded that, if the diseases of the body may sometimes be cured by salutary violence, neither steel nor fire can eradicate the erroneous opinions of the mind."

-Edward Gibbons, The Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

My vote definitely goes for the path taken here: the earlier we get transporters, the better. They are an integral part of treknology, and as stated, there is very little canon material on the date of their introduction. Heck, even noncanon material suggesting transporter introduction in the 2230s-40s is limited to the Spaceflight Chronology and the derived "Final Reflection" and Diane Carey books - the "mainstream" writers like Friedman use transporters freely in the mid-22nd century.

As for the Klingon first contact, it certainly doesn't match any previous fanfic or novel interpretation, but the potential canonity breach is really minor. Lack of Universal Translation is also a cool idea, but I wonder if that will survive beyond the pilot. Both SG-1 and Crusade dropped that realistic concept pretty soon and went for the standard "every alien speaks English" universe.

I'm all for warp four as the maximum speed of the 2150s, too (and incidentally, so is most of fanfic). Grappling hooks? I'll reserve judgement - but I have to confess I gaped in awe at "Soul Hunter", right until the point where Sinclair engages his rockets and defies the laws of physics after all. There's potential to do this well, and potential to do it very badly indeed.

It seems a given that the uniforms here will be typical mlitaristic Alienesque-S:AaBian variety. I wonder if they'll go for a subtle retro element or not. It would be WONDERFUL to see an odd hairstyle (perhaps an early version of the famous Starfleet Sideburns). A dull 2000s hairstyle would be unimaginative and cowardly IMNSHO.

Remember the fancy ties of "Past Tense"? Trek *can* be subtle in creating out-of-this-world dressing trends. I hope they'll do plenty of that in the new show.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :

A few random comments:
For purely selfish reasons (conflict with the Starfleet Museum) I hope this series is closer to First Contact than to the Romulan war. The reviewer seems to think that the series takes place within a decade of the Romulan war. If that's true, you'd think that Earth would be pretty far advanced with almost a century's worth of experience with warp drive. Earth would also have its own ships and star fleet (albeit not Starfleet). Does anyone want to see a Romulan War as a major part of the series?

If the series is set nearer towards First Contact, will they spend a lot of time on Earth showing the rebuilding after the war and the establishment of a world government? Will they have a "tribe of the week" as the advanced proto-World Government tries to bring everyone into the fold? (Shades of "Genesis II" and "Planet Earth"!)

One thing I hope they don't do with this series is to "front-load" it too much with all the races and technology of TOS. I think new tech and races should be introduced gradually during the course of the series so we what changes they effect. Of course, this might allow to many stories that rely on malfunctioning technology, which would be bad and lazy. They might do this anyway. I'm a little bothered that the Klingons will make such an early appearance, but the first contact in 2218 is purely conjecture anyways. I had just grown used to that date. (I wonder how many changes Okuda will have to make in the third edition of the Chronology) On the other hand, I hope they don't have too many "first contact" episodes.

I'm very interested in the look of this new show. If I were the designer, I'd favor a sort of a sleek, sophisticated early Syd Mead, high-tech 1950s-in-space look. It might not be to everyone's taste, but it would certainly distinguish the new series visually. On the other hand, I hope they stay away from a grungy lower decks Alien kind of look with fog, cold grease, and blue lights or a post-apocalypse Mad Max/space pirates look. If they had a level of tech that looked like 2001: A Space Odyssey, I'd be satisfied, I guess.

PS: If I were a member of the Taliban I would be sure to have a lawyer ready to sue Viacom over the Suliban . Would they qualify as shape-shifters (who Kirk thought were mythical) or are they more like Plastic Man or Reed Richards (Fantastic Four)?

------------------
When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

If the show is set at 10 years before Federation, instead of 5, then the Romulan war might not be an issue at all. Okudaically, the war would be a short romp of perhaps four years, and would not really fall within the timeframe of the show, even if it runs for a full seven years.

Then again, that would be something of a loss. If the whole show is about the humans trying to prove their worth to the Vulcans, then surely a war with the cousins of the Vulcans would be a big issue. Of course, one would have to dance around the issue of showing the faces of the Romulans... I wouldn't worry about the proximity of the war making Earth too "advanced", though. Perhaps space warfare developed at a pace comparable to air warfare in WWI - from zero to full speed in nothing flat?

Also, the show is likely to evolve a lot during its run, just like all the Trek shows so far. Perhaps there will be a major shift in mid-run towards Romulan war stories, or alternately a big swing away from them (say, the Enterprise gets a propulsion upgrade and is sent to deep space far away from Earthly worries)?

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I'm not too eager to see the rebuilding of Earth. The thing about Star Trek is that it's very much a piece of utopian fiction, and the thing about utopias is that, by definition, they don't exist. Examine them too closely and they start becoming transparent. I'm afraid that the show would either gloss over the difficulties of building a perfect world and thus prove dull and uninteresting, or it would pack lots of flaws into the thing, thus rendering one of basic premises of Star Trek void.

Far better, I think, would be to do the beginnings of the Federation. We've got much more room to manuver in that organization, because Trek is less contingent on the UFP being perfect. Usually right, yes, but so are the heroes of every show.

Now, this isn't to say that I wouldn't like to see anything done about the immediate post-Contact Earth. The occassional episode, perhaps. But I don't think a series would work.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

I wonder if they'll set the pilot exactly seven years before the founding of the UFP, so they can end the series w/ that...?

------------------
"Although, from what I understand, having travelled around the Mid-west quite a bit, apparently Jesus is coming, so I guess the choice now is we should decide whether we should spit or swallow."
-Maynard James Keenan

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Dare I mention that S31 was created in the Federation charter?

------------------
"Omega is right."
-Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Ooooh. I'd like to see the beginnings of Section 31. They didn't start out as such a clandestine organization though...

TSN: There's no guarantee that this thing will run for 7 years, though. I'm not sure how I would handle that if I were them.

------------------
"The sons of the Prophet were valiant and bold,
And quite unacustomed to fear.
But, of all, the most reckless, or so I am told,
Was Abdulah Boul Boul Ameer."
Aban's Illustration www.alanfore.com

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Aban: Yeah, but, if it lasts at all, it will probably run for seven years (since that's become their "magic number"). So, I wonder if they'll set it up that way just so they'll be able to do that if it does last.

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

The series has got a 7 year contract. Unless it is worst than Voyager it will run for 7 years...

------------------
"We have a good arrangement. He supplies the weapons, I use them."
- Blade

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

Transporters in the mid-22nd century? That makes the technology even more incredible than it already is.

------------------
"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
Ex Astris Scientia

Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :

The plot thickens! AICN now reports that the favorable "review" sent into Trek Today was actually written by a Star Trek staffer:

For your reference, here's the original AICN review they mention in the newer article: http://aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=8559
------------------
When you're in the Sol system, come visit the [URL=http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/sfmuseum/index.htm] Starfleet Museum

[This message has been edited by Masao (edited April 25, 2001).]

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

I'd take it as a good sign if factions of Paramount bother to do this kind of imaginative promoting. At least they show they care what we think.

That "negative response" this Viacom Girl is talking about - where is it coming from? Letter-writing campaigns? Angry phonecalls? Dunno. If Paramount had listened to such feedback before, we definitely wouldn't have gotten DS9, perhaps not even TNG. I say, let them try. What can we lose? It's not our money they are using (at least unless we buy excessively large numbers of toy phasers or Voyager videos), but it *is* our time they are wasting. And the writing certainly won't get better just by putting all Trek on a hiatus - so the sooner we get to see their next experiment, the better. Any time spent worrying about Trek, instead of writing, filming and marketing it, is time wasted.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

Oh, my God!

Wouldn't it be unbelievably boring if they DIDN'T screw things up? What would we have to do?

Seriously, I am very much against ANY new alien race in a prequel, and I hope they will use Tellarites and Andorians extensively, since popular belief says they were founding members of the Federation.
I also hope they finally solve the Alpha Centauri question: native inhabitants or just an Earth colony?

------------------
"Fuck L Ron Hubbard and fuck all his clones.
Fuck all those gun-toting
hip gangster wannabes."
-Tool, Ænima

---
Titan Fleet Yards - Harry Doddema's Star Trek Site

Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :

Seems I screwed up the links.
Here is the AICN article that says the script review at Trek Today was written by a Series V producer: http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=8794

Here's the original script review on AICN from last month that got the producers upset: http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=8559

Sorry for the mix-up

------------------
When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum

Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :

Okay, so I'm a Trehnophyle:
1. Why no tractor beam (assuming this rumor-mongering is true). For Ghu's sake, it's nothing more than a generated gravity beam - and they already have artificial gravity.

2. I'm thinking back to "The Cage". We get to see a good deal of early 23rd century (I think) technology and sophistication. I do hope we wouldn't see things that look more modern than this. [removes sarcasm translator].

To quote various characters in Star Wars:
"I've got a bad feeling about this."

------------------
Faster than light - no left or right.

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

Re: tractor beams, that's exactly what I was thinking. But I think it said something about the artificial gravity being created by a "gravity well." So, does that mean there's a black hole on board the ship, or what?

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Well, "The Cage" was mid-twenty-third-century. So, the stuff we see should be a century less advanced.

As for the "gravity well"... Wouldn't this have to be located at the bottom of the ship, to keep everyone in the same direction? Wouldn't that put a lot of gravity on the lower decks, and little at the top? Or, if it's strong enough that the difference isn't noticeable, wouldn't it affect things outside the ship? Wouldn't there be a lot of space-dust and such clinging to the outside of the ship, due to the gravity?

Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :

Spoilers from Voyager "Friendship One"$$$$$$
$
$
$
$
$
$
$
$
$
$
$
The "fact" recently established in this ep that Earth was using antimatter drives in 2067 is just the kind of thing I feared about the new series. They are front-loading series V with much of the technologies and conditions of TOS (artificial gravity, transporters, Klingons) rather than gradually introducing them and seeing how the new tech is dealt with. But, I guess most fans aren't techical fans and don't care about this type of thing.

------------------
When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum

Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :

Isn't that the problem anyway? They can't make the technology too "low-tech", otherwise I think this whole series wouldn't be what we have come to expect from Trek in the past.
I'm already beginning to dislike this show even before it has started. :-(

Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :

Star Trek shouldn't only be about technology, so maybe we shouldn't care about the tech so much as long as the new Series has good stories and characters and reflects the proper values of Trek we've come to know. On the other hand, Star Trek should be about how mankind reacts to technology. On the third hand (oh well) if the new show has all the tech of the modern era, what's the point of setting it in the past?

------------------
When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

So "Friendship One" was powered with good old Auntie Em? Well, that would help explain how it could do the pretty respectable speed it must have been doing to reach the planet in the time allotted. Was there dilithium aboard as well?

With this now established, I guess we can safely say that the Phoenix also had antimatter power. There is no real reason now it shouldn't have had that type of power, and there *was* that dialogue involving words like "intermix"...

Anyway, there goes most of the plot of "Final Reflection". Damn. So far, that book had teetered on the verge of not-quite-noncanon. Now it's gone forever into the noncanonland. I seriously hope the new show can come up with something of that caliber as a replacement... Perhaps dilithium will be discovered during the run of the show? Perhaps the Klingons will play a role in this, if they really have that stuff readily available on their home planet's orbit, on Praxis? Such a plotline would be rather interesting from both treknology and general-dramatic point of view.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

Then what about the lithium-to-dilithium thing?

------------------
"Fuck L Ron Hubbard and fuck all his clones.
Fuck all those gun-toting
hip gangster wannabes."
-Tool, Ænima

---
Titan Fleet Yards - Harry Doddema's Star Trek Site

Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :

They did't say lithium they said 'lithium--short for dilithium...really.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Why is antimatter so unbelievable? It seems almost certain that the Vulcans were using it. I'm sure they could have spared a cup or two. That doesn't mean Cochrane had to have access to any to build the Phoenix.

------------------
OH NO< THE OLD MAN WALKS HIS GREEN DOG THAT SHOTS PINBALLS!~!!!
--
Jeff K
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet" and nothing at all will happen.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

"'lithium-short for dilithium"?

Reaching. Really reaching.

------------------
You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park

Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :

Sol: So you are suggesting that Zephram did make the first flight w/o using a matter/anti-matter reaction? This would mean the presumably nuclear-fueled (and probably not very effective) original reactor was quickly replaced by a M/AR warp core provided by the vulcans. It would also provide an explanation where humans got dilithium for their first warp-cores.

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

AAAAAAAAH! People, there are three simultaneous arguments going on about "lithium-dilithium"/capabilities of Pheonix/pre-TOS tech stuff. It's driving me crazy! can't we consolidate somehow?

Okay. Lithium standing for dilithium IS really reaching. There is proof that they used LITHIUM crystals, not DILTHIUM crystals, in the early part of TOS. There's several entries under "Lithium Cracking Station" and "Lithuim (crystals)" in the encyclopedia.

It makes SENSE then that Zephram used an M/AM drive on the Pheonix, because lithium is a relatively abundant element found on Earth.

About the gravity well thing. If space works the way I think it works, then the ideal arrangement would be to place the gravity well at the center of a spherical hull arrangement. Everyone on the outer sphere would be pulled toward the well. It would work like a planet. The only problem is that you'd only be able to have about two or three decks before the gradient becomes noticeable. It's the same problem that plagues centripetal/centrifugal systems.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

But we know what lithium is, and it can't regulate M/A reactions. Therefore, the only logic conclusion is that "lithium", when they used it in early TOS, really meant "dilithium".

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

The Encyclopedia refers to it as lithium in a crystal form similar to that of crystalline quartz. We have no idea what other elements they added to form that crystal. If there were any, it might substantially change the properties of the substance formed.

Basically, we have too little information on the subject, but it is a canon given that lithium in a crystalline structure was used to regulate M/AM reactions early on. If "lithium" was shorthand for something else, you'd think they would make that distinction in the encyclopedia. Even as an Okuda assumption.

Besides, if the formula is DIlithiumDIallosilicate-etc. don't you think they would have always called it "dilithium"?

It is more likely that the original compound held only a single atom of lithium, and an "improved" and naturally forming compound which held two lithium atoms was later discovered. I think Timo said something along these lines, and I refuted it. I apologize.

[This message has been edited by Daniel (edited April 28, 2001).]

Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :

Also, where would Cochrane get AM? I'd hardly believe that any particle accelerators survived WWIII and was continuously been maintained and ran by a group of die-hard scientists who produced AM for public consumption (maybe military applications).

But taking a closer look, if Cochrane did manage to caugh up SIF, IDF, bussard collectors, warp field coils.... AM was probably the easiest thing to get. Heck, we can make it now, after all.

And anyone have any idea as to just how much AM Cochrane would have needed for his flight?

------------------
"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."

Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :

That's a good point. I choose to believe that Cochrane didn't invent all of that stuff. Many of the supporting elements required for warp flight, such as SIF and inertial dampeners, could have already been developed by a pre WWIII space agency because they could also be used for conventional space flight.

"Basically, we have too little information on the subject, but it is a canon given that lithium in a crystalline structure was used to regulate M/AM reactions early on."
Is it really--I didn't even think they said precisely what dilithium was used for in TOS.

"Besides, if the formula is DIlithiumDIallosilicate-etc. don't you think they would have always called it "dilithium"?"

Well people always use shorthand to refer to things--I was joking when I wrote it but I do think it does make more sense than using lithium for controlling a matter/antimatter reaction. Then again, if it was never stated what lithium was used for (the encyclopedia doesn't specify), who's to say it had anything to do with M/AR (or even the warp core). Maybe they needed the lithium for the starships auxiliary power (batteries) or some other realistic and important function on a starship.

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

lithium cracking station: Mineral-processing facility used to produce lithium crystals, a critical element of early warp-drive technology. One such facility was the automated station on planet Delta Vega, visited by the Enterprise in 2265. ("Where No Man Has Gone Before" [TOS]).

lithium crystals: The lightest metal on the periodic table of elements, with an atomic number of 3 and an atomic weight of 6.941. Lithium in a form resembling crystalline quartz was a critical component of warp-drive systems in early starships. Lithium suitable for such use was an extremely rare and valuable commodity, requiring an energy-intensive "cracking" process. ("Where No Man Has Gone Before" [TOS]). Starships were rarely able to carry many spare crystals, meaning that damage or burnout of a ship's crystals was a serious problem. ("Mudd's Women" [TOS]).

Note at end of entry: Lithium crystals were used in the Enterprise's engines during the first few episodes of the Original Series. At the suggestion of scientific advisor Harvey Lynn, lithium was later changed to dilithium because lithium is a real element with known properties, while the imaginary dilithium could be endowed by Star Trek's writers with extraordinary qualities not yet known to science, making warp drive possible in the Star Trek universe.

Tell me again that the Encyclopedia doesn't specify their use in the warp-drive system. I assume it was used to regulate M/AM reactions because after dilithium was introduced, we never hear of this lithium compound again. If it were a "critical component" of the warp drive and did something besides regualte the M/AM reactions, then we would have seen it even after dilithium was introduced. I believe that this lithium in crystalline form was used before they discovered dilithium. After dilithium's discovery, they found it regulated M/AM reactions better than the lithium compound and used it instead.

Recarding the AM issue. Has anyone thought of the fact that maybe by this point in the Star Trek universe, they had invented a way to mass-produce antimatter? Manybe it was made in large quantities for the war in highly secure locations, and there were stores of antimatter held in magnetic containment. The systems would have to be maintained out of the fact that if they were not, the world would be blown to pieces. Cochrane could have dipped into this supply.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Maybe WW3 was fought with anti-matter weapons?

------------------
"How do you define fool?"
"I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination."
- CJ Cherryh, Invader

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

That's what I was thinking, but I'm not sure if there's any canon information refuting this.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

The Encyclopedia says that because the authors didn't bother to make something else up. The early episodes said "lithium", so the Okudas just took this to mean real lithium (since that had been the original intention). However, nothing onscreen suggests that the early term "lithium" and the later "dilithium" are different. In fact, they're used onscreen as though they're the same thing.

Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :

Re: the possibility that WWIII was fought with antimatter weapons. I think this is unlikely since according to "Balance of Terror" the Earth-Romulan war more than 100 years later was fought with "primitive atomic weapons and with primitive space vessels." I think this also puts the newly "canon" antimatter tech in 2067 on shaky ground

------------------
When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum

Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :

Maybe WW3 was fought with anti-matter weapons?
---
Naw, the equipement required to contain anti-matter isn't something very compact and portable, I would think. And also a hiccup in the magnetic field and Boom, bye-bye. You get much more bang for your buck with good ol' thermal nuclear (it's pronounced "nuclear") weapons.

------------------
"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."

Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :

Spoiler
S
S
S
S
S
S
S
S
S
S
S
S
S
S
S
"Maybe WW3 was fought with anti-matter weapons?
---
Naw, the equipement required to contain anti-matter isn't something very compact and portable, I would think. And also a hiccup in the magnetic field and Boom, bye-bye. You get much more bang for your buck with good ol' thermal nuclear (it's pronounced "nuclear") weapons."

In "Friendship One", there were several antimatter warheads in those missile silos - and those people didn't look like the technical type. I doubt if they had the aptitude for maintenance. If they had them, we might have them pre-WW3.

I really hate the "Gravity Well" term. What - we couldn't buy gravity generators from the Vulcans?

------------------
Faster than light - no left or right.

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

Maybe they were being snitty.

------------------
"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism."

-Eleanor Arroway, "Contact" by Carl Sagan

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Couldn't we buy antimatter weapons from Vulcan?

Posted by Quatre Winner (Member # 464) on :

Why would the Vulcans have antimatter weapons for?

------------------
In this crazy world of lemons, baby...you're lemonade!

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Does anyone here care if Trek V bombs... I don't care anymore... if they are seeding Voyager with tidbits for this pre TOS series... tsk. The great thing about Trek is that is far in the future... something to aspire to. This series set in the very near future... it'll become WAY too dated...

------------------
Homer: I'm gonna miss Springfield. This town's been awfully good to us.
Bart: No, it hasn't, Dad. That's why we're leaving.
Homer: Oh, yeah. [pokes his head out the window] So long, Stinktown!

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

A century-and-a-half? That's "very near"? So, if Charles Dickens had written stories set in the year 2000, it wouldn't have been very far in the future for him?