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Posted by targetemployee (Member # 217) on :

Me bad.

Anyway, the topic. Source: TrekToday

Berman & Braga speak continuity

Nice to see a mention to one of our favorite topics, the Eugenics Wars.

[ July 19, 2001: Message edited by: targetemployee ]

Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :

Um, the picture is nothing more than a box with a cute little red "X" in it. You might wanna check the address.

Posted by targetemployee (Member # 217) on :

It's fixed. Fun readings.

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Actually, wasn't it in TMP that the "new" Klingon look premiered? Does he not even know that?

sigh

anyway...I think they could probably do a really cool TOS Klingon...or a blending of the TOS version and the TNG version...Something that allows for a bit of suspension of disbelief.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

And what would that look like, considering the TOS Klingons were men with red paint on and beards, and TNG Klingons are men with red paint on, beards, and Cornish pasties on their heads?

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

And before we all pick on poor B & B, the reporter isn't completely blameless either.

"Berman's first experience with fan feedback occured after an early TNG episode showed a phaser beam appearing out of a photon torpedo tube."

Glad to see that season 5 is considered "early".

Posted by Michael_T (Member # 144) on :

Okay now people, let's not panick until we see the pilot episode. Then we shall decide on the correct course of action. Just stockpile lots of episodes of the other Trek series in case of an emergency.

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

What I mean by a combination of the two, Psy, is something more along the lines of some of the Klingons in Trek 6. Some smaller ridges. Uniforms and hair styles that harken back to TOS, but use a bit more style.

I wouldn't say make them just like TOS, but I wouldn't say make them look just like TNG either.

I think a nice blend is in order.

[ July 19, 2001: Message edited by: Aban Rune ]

Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :

That would rock if they showed us the two different types of Klingons, and explained it all the way Okuda does, by saying that there are more than one race, just like here on Earth. It makes sense, it wouldn't complicate things any more than they already have been, an it would placate us 'hard-core' fans.

But then again, this is the Killer B's we're talking about here...

Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :

Um... Kang, Koloth, and Kor?

Mark

Posted by Stingray (Member # 621) on :

quote:
Just stockpile lots of episodes of the other Trek series in case of an emergency.

Lets see...

Charlie X...check
Spock's Brain...check
Coming of Age...check
Shades of Grey...check
Parallax...check
Threshold...check
Cathexis...check
Elogium...check
Parturition...check
Resistance...check
Innocence...check
The Chute...check
Sacred Groun...check
Nemesis...check
The Fight...check
The...I think I've made my point.

[ July 19, 2001: Message edited by: Stingray ]

Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :

Mark: Haven't you ever heard of cosmetic surgery?

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

"'We're too busy really to sit down and read all of the Internet mail that comes in on all of this stuff.' Berman added, 'If we did that, we'd have to hire other people to do the television series.'"

Erm... How about hiring other people to read the mail? Duh...

"'...starting I think with "Star Trek II," which took place really at the same time as Capt. Kirk, they were using makeup very similar to Worf.'"

It was TMP.

"Braga added, 'It was "Star Trek III."'"

It was TMP.

"Berman's first experience with fan feedback occured after an early TNG episode showed a phaser beam appearing out of a photon torpedo tube. ...'I didn't know the difference. I had no idea which was which.'"

Can we please get someone who can work on the show for years and years and actually come away knowing something about it?!

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

To be fair, he says he didn't know the difference. I bet he does now.

And again, is it necessary for the Executive Producer to know that sort of stuff? Is it necessary for the Exec Producer of NYPD Blue to know the difference between a 218 and a 420 situation? Is it necessary for the Exec Producer of ER to know which are bacterial diseases, and which are viral?

Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :

Psyliam, Good Sir, are you actually DEFENDING Berman and Bragga???

I'm wounded.

Posted by Stingray (Member # 621) on :

quote:
And again, is it necessary for the Executive Producer to know that sort of stuff? Is it necessary for the Exec Producer of NYPD Blue to know the difference between a 218 and a 420 situation? Is it necessary for the Exec Producer of ER to know which are bacterial diseases, and which are viral?

If they wrote the friggin' shows, then it might come in handy. Geez...

Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :

Yes we all know that Gene realized his true nision of klingons in TMP, and I think most of us were willing to accept that TOS klingons were the result of subspace interfere with our TV sets. The true point (that they ignore) is "Trials and Tribblations" which came along and fucked up everything.

Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :

I've been saying for a while that "Trials and Tribble-ations" majorly screwed up the discontinuity in Klingon make-up. The writers had a chance to give us some explanation, but they took the copout and screwed what had been established. We had smooth Klingon foreheads in TOS, but when the bumpy Klingon foreheads appeared in TMP there was no real surprise from the Starfleet officers. A TNG episode showed Kahless, who had been cloned from the original's DNA. He had a bumpy forehead. We see Kor, Kang, and Koloth in an episode of DS9 (with Koloth becoming a recurring character) and they had gained their bumpy foreheads. Ay yi yi.

As for Berman and Braga not knowing the difference between a photon torpedo launcher and a phaser array, let me ask you all this: did Rick Berman personally create the visual effects that showed a phaser blast coming from the torpedo tube? The original mistake was the VFX departments, Berman's mistake was that he didn't catch it in final review. But we're not going to sit down and scold the VFX department for not knowing the difference between a phaser and torpedo, are we? I mean, just because they handle the models and create the footage...

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

It was Kor who kept coming back, not Koloth.

And I'm not saying it's Berman's fault that a VFX error got on screen. But the fact that he was/is the guy in charge, and he readily admits he doesn't know something as simple as where the various weapons are on the ship? What's next? Will he not know where the bridge is, or the deflector array? Will he not know the difference between a Klingon and a Romulan?

Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :

I stand corrected, Kor it was.

However, I still don't think it's a big deal that Berman didn't (note that he said "didn't." I bet he knows now) the difference between a phaser array and the torpedo tube. If you think about, how many other people didn't that have to go through before the fans noticed it was a screw-up? I think the problem of that particular instance is small in and of itself. The episode itself said that the crew was working on phaser modifications, that might have been part of it. But that is beside the main point.

Regardless of how anyone feels about the opinion of Berman and Braga's work, they have a talented crew doing the ins and outs of the production of Star Trek. The ultimate quality for an episode, series, or movie rests on the executive producers' shoulders, but they are not the only ones who should be blamed when things go wrong.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

"If they wrote the friggin' shows, then it might come in handy. Geez..."

Oh yeah, Rick Berman is a prolific Trek writer. Let's see, we have "Brothers", and, er, what? By himself? Where it would be crucial for him to know exactly where the phasers are fired from?

Posted by Stingray (Member # 621) on :

That wasn't pointed so much at Berman as it was at Braga. Defend his writing history and continuity.

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

Interestingly, I've never actually seen someone attempt to come up with a comprehensive list of apparently capital continuity crimes comitted by Braga. I'd put good money that despite all the talk about he giving quotes to Star Trek magazines saying "there are times I wish the Third Reich had imposed its final solution on the parents of all those shithead fanboys" that his record is no more or less abominable than any other writer.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

"Defend his writing history and continuity."

Defend the man who wrote "First Contact", the best of the TNG films, one that jostles with ST II overall for best Trek film of all, and one that managed to be both main-stream and appeal to the rabid fanboys?

Dear me, I don't think I can.

(Actually, First Contact is an excellent example in that regard. It was steeped in the series continuity, but had a real appeal to non-fans as well. That's exactly what Enterprise needs.)

Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :

quote:
Defend his writing history and continuity.

You know, I keep hearing that Braga is a horrible writer and gives no regard to continuity. But Braga co-wrote many good episodes of The Next Generation as well as First Contact. He supervised the writers on Voyager, and Voyager did have some excellent episodes. As for continuity, people I have asked for examples only throw around three examples. The first is that Braga himself said he doesn't believe in continuity. But the truth is that he said he wouldn't let one line of dialog stand in the line of a good story. The second is that he wanted Zephram Cochrane to be a woman in First Contact. But interestingly enough, the other Great Satan of DisContinuity Rick Berman nipped that idea. The three example is the Voyager episode Threshold. That was a total disaster, I agree. But that's all I ever gotten for definitive arguments against Braga.

Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :

quote:
...he wouldn't let one line of dialog stand in the line of a good story...

Then don't pick a story line that would be hampered by one line of dialog.

It's those one-liners that comprise a lot of what we know as continuity. You can't just ignore them. And feed me the "Trek has always been about stroytelling..." bit, because the stories have to make sense when compared with other stories told before.

Geez, I'm really sorry if Berman and Braga can't be bothered to actually WATCH episodes of the old show and get the story straight. I bet they haven't even skimmed through the Encyclopedia or (**God forbid!**) the Chronology!

Of couse they can bend the rules a little, change things a little. Every writer does. But only so far.

Now, I'm not going to cite examples, because you're right in saying that they haven't done anything so horrific...(except maybe "Threshold")...YET.

But what they have done is shown a callous disregard for TOS and for the conjectures of Michael Okuda and others, who have devoted much effort to coming up with believable, CONTINUOUS explanations and at times excuses for the writers' rule-bending.

And, in the words of Will Deckard:

"That, in my mind, Sir, seriously jeopardizes this mission."

MMoM

[ July 20, 2001: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]

Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :

quote:
It's those one-liners that comprise a lot of what we know as continuity. You can't just ignore them.

I'm fairly certain he wasn't talking about a line of dialog along the lines of "We met the Liamites in 2345." The lines he was talking about were the throwaways lines like "We met the Liamites about half a century ago." There's a very big difference between the two.

quote:
And feed me the "Trek has always been about stroytelling..." bit, because the stories have to make sense when compared with other stories told before.

Well, Trek has been about storytelling. And the stories do make sense.

quote:
Geez, I'm really sorry if Berman and Braga can't be bothered to actually WATCH episodes of the old show and get the story straight. I bet they haven't even skimmed through the Encyclopedia or (**God frobid!**) the Chronology!

And, geez, what makes you assume that they haven't watched any of the episodes from The Original Series? And, according to Mr. Okuda, the producers and writers have read his encyclopedia and chronology. Your statement is therefore invalid.

quote:
Of couse they can bend the rules a little, change things a little. Every writer does. But only so far.

I agree.

quote:
Now, I'm not going to cite examples, because you're right in saying that they haven't done anything so horrific...(except maybe "Threshold")...YET.

I agree as well. The possibility exists in all stories that someone at sometime will screw up on a grand scale. It exists in Law & Order; it exists in South Park; it exists in Star Trek. But just because they haven't done anything yet is no excuse to say that they are going to something.

quote:
But what they have done is shown a callous disregard for TOS and for the conjectures of Michael Okuda and others, who have devoted much effort to coming up with believable, CONTINUOUS explanations and at times excuses for the writers' rule-bending.

I have yet to see the callous disregard for TOS or for the conjectures of Mike Okuda and others. And, to be honest, conjectures are simply hypothetical explanations. That does not mean they are set in stone. And Mr. Okuda does not seem to be too upset with the Klingon first contact happening in 2151 as opposed to 2218. As a matter of fact, there is on-screen evidence for the Klingons and humans meeting well before 2218. But we've already been over this.

[ July 20, 2001: Message edited by: Siegfried ]

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

"It's those one-liners that comprise a lot of what we know as continuity. You can't just ignore them. And feed me the "Trek has always been about stroytelling..." bit, because the stories have to make sense when compared with other stories told before. "

You know, if a modern Trek series deceided, in it's first season, to keep flipping between two different authorities in charge of the ship, the fans would have gone mental. Of course, it happens in TOS, and people scramble over each other to come up with explanations.

Posted by Michael_T (Member # 144) on :

It's a show...okay it's more like a legend and a franchise now since it's been around over 35 years. Things are forgotten unfortunately. There are large amounts of data to remember, so continuity will suffer. We have 9 movies and 4 finished series' filled with data. If the fans can barely agree and remember certain things, can you actually expect the people running Star Trek do the same?

You may now shoot me with the Type-3 Compression Phaser Rifle.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

To address the arguement that Braga wrote good TNG episodes... That's true. But he wasn't an executive producer then. He was just a writer. Put someone better in charge who can check and balance him, and demote him back to just "writer". Then things will be fine.

And responding to "Braga's no good for continuity" w/ "Braga wrote such good things as First Contact" has to be one of the worst arguements I've ever heard. How soon we forget that FC started us on the path of the ruining of the Borg even before "Voyager" did...

Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :

First Contact, as Liam pointed out above, is a good movie that did well in the theaters. It was a successful blending of stuff the fans of Star Trek wanted with the stuff that could draw a general audience. I don't particularly feel that the Borg has been ruined, but if you do that's your opinion.

However, if there is a problem, the problem would have to have its origins in TNG's "Descent." That was a not a good two-parter at all and it showed the Borg to be emotionally overcharged maniacs with individuality fighting a civil war. These themes later did reappear in the Borg-centered Voyager episodes. And TNG started it all.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

In fact, after BoBW, I don't think there was any feasable way of reshowing the Borg without changing them. They already changed significantly between Q Who and BoBW (as originally they only wanted tecnology. By BoBW they also wanted to assimilate everyone's "biological distinctiveness" as well).

I thought the Borg were treated well in First Contact. You can argue about the Borg Queen back and forth, but it was necessary to have a focal point. It's very hard to pull off having a "group" as the enemy, without having a leader. Dr Who managed it for about a decade with the Daleks, before they crumbles and added Davros.

In fact, the Borg having the ability to instantly assimilate in First Contact actually did a great job of making them MORE scary, which was no mean feet.

First Contact god good reviews, did well at the box office, and appeals to fans and non-fans alike. I'd say it's a good thing to quote if you're defending it's writer.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Besides, it said "Defend his writing history and continuity". I was defending his history. Unless, by history, he meant "his ability to get future-historical facts right".