In any case, the map is interesting in that it roughly corresponds with the original "Balance of Terror" map, yet brings in the Klingons. And there are outposts in both UFP and Klingon territories here. Which just makes me wonder: now that we know that the Klingons will be met BEFORE the Romulans, what sort of a stance do you think they will take in the war?
If this Okudagram is for real, it seems that the Klingons control a stretch of the RNZ, a stretch that begins nicely next to Outpost 1 and thus probably indicates that the border was in this place before the events of "Balance of Terror". And the Feds are allowed to keep outposts in the Klingon side of the fence, at least by the time of TNG! Or then the Klingons operate the outposts 41, 42 etc. according to Khitomer Accords or something.
So did the Klingons fight alongside us? Alongside the Romulans? Did they stand aside and then claim half the space around the RNZ? Were they at near-eternal war with the Romulans already, and dragged us in for a while? Any bets? How will the "warbirds" of "Broken Bow" fame tie into this?
(This map also would establish the orientation if not the scale of the "BoT" map: "down" on Spike's pic would most probably be towards the galactic rim, if we believe that the Romulans are coreward of the Klingons. Aargh! Just as I promised to forget about cartography until I've given ENT enough time to contradict all of my previous assumptions...)
Timo Saloniemi
And, IIRC, we made first contact with the Klingons AFTER the Romulan Wars.
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Christopher:
Well, if first contact with the Klingons was in 2151, then the Romulan War must have been before that...
Why? No episode has indicated that the Romulan Wars occurred prior to first contact with the Klingons.
I also believe that the Klingons will probably be already in contact with Romulans at this time, but when the war with the Romulans ensues the Klingons will not be involved, but it really is just a guess that all out hostilities with them don't start up until some time later.
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Admiral:
I think we can safely assume that the Romulan wars occurred some time during the 2150's
Based on what? The only reference to when the Romulan Wars occur is "Balance of Terror," which says they were one hundred years before the episode. That would put them in the 2160s, not the 2150s.
And before someone whips out the "Romulans versus Earth with no mention of the Federation" argument, let me remind you that Kirk's Enterprise was often called an Earth ship sans Federation, yet nobody disputes the existence of said Federation. Or the U.S.S. Valiant, lost at Eminiar VII; that was called an Earth ship, too, but we all (rightly) assume that the Federation was around at the time. More on this below.
quote:
and it's quite possible this war begins more or less immediately after first contact.
For all we know, first contact with the Romulans already happened well before Enterprise. Of course, if I had to guess, I'd say that it hasn't, and we probably won't see mention of the wars during the series. It'll avoid retreading on Deep Space Nine's Dominion War turf. Postponing the wars doesn't go against any canon, luckily.
And now, Ryan's great "Theory of Why Humans and Earth Dominate Starfleet and the Federation to the Point That They Are Synonymous." I sumbit that most species don't have an innate desire to spread and conquer, and stick to their home planet and a few in-system industrial and/or scientific facilities. Once they have what they need, they cease to want. Notable exceptions are Humans, Romulans, Klingons, and Cardassians.
After first contact, Humans begin spreading throughout the local region of the galaxy. We colonize many planets, and more importantly, breed like bunnies when we get there. When we decide, with a few friends, to found the Federation in 2161, humans already make up more than half of the population. There are, say, a hundred planets inhabited by Humans, each with populations doubling every thirty years or so. There might be twenty planets split between the other handful of founders. Earth's Starfleet is retooled to become the exploratory/defensive force of the Federation, and due to differences in enviornment, food, and culture, ships are segregated by species... since Humans outnumber the others greatly, most starships are Human-controlled. There is no opression of the other races, it's simply a matter of numbers.
The practice continues for another century. By the 2260s, there are forty Federation member species on five hundred planets. Humans populate 375 of those planets, and as each new planet is settled, the humans get busy. It becomes a point of contention in some circles; for instance, the Klingon High Council often referred to the Federation as a Homo sapiens only club. It's not uncommon to hear mentions of the "Earth Federation" and "Earth Fleet," even in non-derisive contexts.
It's only in the next hundred years, leading up to the 2360s, that the sheer number of non-human Federation members begins to balance the sheer numbers of Humans. Replicators allow a wide variety of foods to be served aboard starships, among other advancements, and the species segregation policy is ended (exclusing, of course, those species whose environments are completely hostile to others).
And so, by the time of the Next Generation, we see a more multispecial Federation. Humans still dominate Starfleet, but the ratio is something like 3:1 rather than the 10:1 of the original series. The interesting thing is that, by my thoery, Humans share more in common with the Klingons and Romulans than with the other Federation members; the key difference between us and our enemies is what happens to the aliens we come across. In the Federation, they are equals (if minorities). In the empires, they are slaves at worst, and non-entities at best. We see the empires and wonder at why they seem to be composed of only one species; the Federation is not so different, it just allows those species to be seen and heard.
[ August 25, 2001: Message edited by: Ryan McReynolds ]
quote:
I sumbit that most species don't have an innate desire to spread and conquer, and stick to their home planet and a few in-system industrial and/or scientific facilities.
This certainly seems to be the case, Ryan. My only problem with it is that species that don't have such a "desire" tend to be replaced by ones that do.
My problem is how species that don't have the special quality get in the position of becoming the dominant industrialized warp capable species of any particular planet in the first place. It's basic evolutionary psychology.
As for Ryan's theory, I like it. Some of the assumptions he's made are ones that I've made myself and its all nicely woven together and fits what we've seen.
There's still some problem with the fact that everybody in Starfleet seems to be from Earth. I for one would love to see some people from Mars at least.
(with a few exceptions of course)
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Admiral:
Or, 'evreyone in Starfleet seems to come from The United States of America, Great Britain, Ireland, or other English speaking countries. Lol.(with a few exceptions of course)
LOL
that maybe becuase starfleet utilizes "english" as its only lanquage...universal translaters don't explain why the names of ship are written in english after all...so all aliens attending starfleet will have to learn english or else they have no idea what ships they are serving on when they board them in spacedock. hehe
There are other ships out there that are mostly Andorian or Bolian or Betazoid with a few other aliens (or maybe none at all) Maybe its just 'big-arsed-special-ships' like The Flagship Enterprise which has a more spread of species. We have often seen Species-specific ships... The all Vulcan ships like the T'Kumbra and the Intrepid. Also the Hera - which Geordi's mother was the Captain. It had a mostly Vulcan crew. Then we have the exchange program with the friend of Wesleys - even though it seemed like they weren't part of Starfleet - he could have been just from an all 'insert species name here' ship. Think about it - would you want to be the sole human on a Betazoid starship!?!
It always irked me that Enterprise, as the unofficial Federation flagship & most well-known ship, always had a crew that was so "humanocentric." I rather like what they did in the novels (especially the TOS ones set between TMP & TWOK) where there's a LOT of aliens, a HUGE mixture in the crew. To me, THAT is Starfleet. Sulamids, Sadrao, hestv, Oxonians, Horas, & those really cool transdimensional sentient rocks from that world where Lia Burke was from. Woo!
quote:
Originally posted by Shik:
It always irked me that Enterprise, as the unofficial Federation flagship & most well-known ship, always had a crew that was so "humanocentric." I rather like what they did in the novels (especially the TOS ones set between TMP & TWOK) where there's a LOT of aliens, a HUGE mixture in the crew. To me, THAT is Starfleet. Sulamids, Sadrao, hestv, Oxonians, Horas, & those really cool transdimensional sentient rocks from that world where Lia Burke was from. Woo!
I liked the idea of those novels, but unfortunately we saw the ship's entire crew in The Motion Picture and it was at least 90% human. While it's possible that all of the (generally Duane-invented) aliens came aboard the refit Enterprise after that adventure, it's unlikely they were in such numbers that one out of two minor characters was an exotic alien. The original series was quite clear that Spock was the only alien aboard during the five-year mission. In The Wrath of Khan, there wasn't a single non-human cadet aboard (save Saavik), nor was there any sign of an alien in the Reliant's crew. It's an unfortunate reality that there just aren't many aliens aboard the mostly-human Starfleet ships, and there has never been seen a ship with even an equal human-to-alien ratio, much less an even spread among several dozen species. Humans consistently make up 80% or more of the ship's complement.
That said, I love Diane Duane's aliens. I just wish they didn't all speak with so many vowels and diphthongs.
BTW, serving as the only human on an all-Vulcan ship would be horrible to!
Okuda used two fonts for the same type in the first few years of TNG, one the big display font that we know so well from every Okudagram inspired webpage, and also a smaller version that wasnt as slick but designed to be readable at very small points (to the mercy of us freeze-framers). The small font (Now known as TNG Monitor) was used by Okuda until the middle of TNG, but he eventually go some more sophisticated looking text in graphics as technology got better for him. Unfortunately TNG Monitor continues to grace every second rate webpage i visit. You can see it in the blu RNZ okudagram here and many of the printouts (such as the SS Mariposa shiplists from season II) but by the time of the conference room shiplists he was using a font more similar to the standard TNG computer font (which i have in a form referred to as Swiss911)
Not that we are talking about that anymore