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Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
 
I was at work & tooks a good hard look at T'Pol's uni on the cover of TV Guide. She actaully has some sort of Vulcan rank pip on her left collar (HER left, the viewer's right) that almost blends in with the pattern of the outfit. It's a nice Vulcanesque "splatterscript" look to it & very cool that, like Kira, she's not being forced into wearing Starfleet rank.
 
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
 
quote:
she's not being forced into wearing Starfleet rank.

Yes, the script makes that very clear:

quote:
CHARLIE
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you just kind of an "observer" on this mission? I don't remember anyone telling me you were a member of Starfleet.

T'POL
My Vulcan rank supersedes yours.

CHARLIE
Apples and oranges. This is an Earth vessel. You're in no position to take command.



 
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
 
quote:
I was at work & tooks a good hard look at T'Pol's uni on the cover of TV Guide.

Shik, please tell me that the rank pips weren't the ONLY thing you noticed about her uniform...


Actually, when I saw your thread title, I thought you were going to discuss the Starfleet rank pips. Does anyone else find it odd that the Enterprise's crew wears the exact type of rank pips as the TNG era? Especially since after ENTERPRISE and before TNG, the pips disappear in favor of sleeve rank braids in TOS?
 


Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
 
Yeah, actually. I noticed that the fabric pattern of the uni looks an awful lot like a rug I put away.

Stripes would've been cool-ish. If they did stipes, they should've been on the shoulders like today's enlisted grades. But then everyone would be all "WTF??"
 


Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
 
Yeah, actually. I noticed that the fabric pattern of the uni looks an awful lot like a rug I put away.

Stripes would've been cool-ish. If they did stipes, they should've been on the shoulders like today's enlisted grades. But then everyone would be all "WTF??"
 


Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
 
I was expecting something a bit more creative in terms of the rank system than taking the TNG pips and turning them into silver rectangles. And, of course, I do have a theory about this.

The rank system we're familiar with from the TNG era could be an Earth tradition. When the Federation is formed and the Federation Starfleet comes into existence, all of the founding members provide input into the organization. Perhaps the Andorians, Tellarites, or Alpha Centaurians proposed the strip rank and the uniform look while Earth provided the department breakdown and color scheme. Eventually, someone else got the chance to do the TOS movie era through Pre-TNG ranks, and then Earth got custody of the Uniform Control Division. This may also explain why there have been three different uniforms in 14 years.

On a similar note, is Dr. Phlox in Starfleet? Of everything I've seen for Enterprise, only once has he been wearing something resembling a Starfleet uniform (namely, one of the promos where his back is to us and he's with Tucker). Then, it's only certain he's wearing a field jacket. Everything else has him in this light-colored jumpsuit.
 


Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
Since it's still just an Earth organization, I doubt Phlox is in Starfleet.

I too would have prferred to see something different as far as rank insignia goes. Maybe some kind of shoulder stripes or something. Something that hints more at TOS than it does at TNG.
 


Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
 
Phlox is part of an Interspecies Medical Exchange initiated by the Vulcans.

Maybe Lily Sloane suggested this ranksystem after she saw it aboard the E-E.
 


Posted by MeGotBeer (Member # 411) on :
 
Or, perhaps, the TNG/DS9/VOY rank system was instituted as a tribute to the original ranking system? Just a thought ...

Frankly, yes, I'd like to see not stripes (except on dress uniforms), but the rank pins the Navy uses for it's khaki uniforms ... in other words, the TOS movie emblems.
 


Posted by MeGotBeer (Member # 411) on :
 
Or, perhaps, the TNG/DS9/VOY rank system was instituted as a tribute to the original ranking system? Just a thought ...

Frankly, yes, I'd like to see not stripes (except on dress uniforms), but the rank pins the Navy uses for it's khaki uniforms ... in other words, the TOS movie emblems.
 


Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
 
quote:
but the rank pins the Navy uses for it's khaki uniforms ... in other words, the TOS movie emblems.

IMO those two rank pin sets are totally different.
 


Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
 
I would prefer stripes too, but Starfleet uniforms and accessories have changed back and forth on a number of occassions so I don't think the rank pips are a problem, just another example of such things being introduced, being phased out in favour of another method, then reintroduced, etc.

Also, does anyone one precisely what species Dr Phlox is? Has it not come out yet, or has this entirely passed me by?
 


Posted by Mr. Christopher (Member # 71) on :
 
I believe it's intentionally left out.
 
Posted by MeGotBeer (Member # 411) on :
 
quote:
IMO those two rank pin sets are totally different.

Yes, I'm aware of that -- I meant that the pins would be more in place for a newly space-faring navy then stripes (except on dress uniforms) or the TNG pips.
 


Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :
 
quote:
I would prefer stripes too, but Starfleet uniforms and accessories have changed back and forth on a number of occassions so I don't think the rank pips are a problem, just another example of such things being introduced, being phased out in favour of another method, then reintroduced, etc.

Thats not a bad point, but the ever growning pile of it switched backisms is big enough. Why does everything have to be like the damn TNG era? Don't they have any creativity left in them at all? Don't like TOS? Fine then have it be completely different from both shows.
 


Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
 
I think stripes would look silly on these jumpsuit-uniforms.
 
Posted by Tech Sergeant Chen (Member # 350) on :
 
Stripes or insignia on shoulder epaulets would have been nice and it wouldn't clash with the jumpsuits. After all, they use them on today's flight suits, which aren't too different. But Berman probably doesn't want to be accused of copying Babylon 5, which IIRC used epaulets.

Personally, among other things swiped from the later series, I wish they'd dumped the dark, cramped look of DS9 and Voyager. I miss the bright, spacious corridors and rooms of TOS.
 


Posted by Dr Phlox (Member # 680) on :
 
What about the Promenade? Anyway Bright colors wouldn't work on tv today and Paramount is going for a film look.
 
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
I think the other factor at work here with the uniforms is that, while they say they want to do something new with Trek, they also don't want people to have to work *too* hard to figure things out.

Stripes instead of pips:
Casual viewer 1: "What are those stripe thingies on his shoulder, there?"
Casual viewer 2: "How the hell should I know? Pikerd never wore anything like that."

Pips instead of stripes:
Casual viewer 1:"What are those suare looking thingies on his shoulder?"
Casual viewer 2: "Those are like them circles that Pikerd wore on that other Star Trek show. That means he's in charge...cause he has four."
 


Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
I doubt the "casual viewer" would be like that. They'd recognize it as military insignia, and that's it. Ask a "casual viewer" how many rank pips a captain wears, and they'll say "Uh... I don't know.".

Basically, the "casual viewer" knows who the captain is because everyone calls him/her/it "captain".
 


Posted by Tech Sergeant Chen (Member # 350) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dr Phlox:
What about the Promenade? Anyway Bright colors wouldn't work on tv today and Paramount is going for a film look.

The Promenade was supposed to be big, but it never felt to me like it was very different from any of the multilevel engineering sets. Especially when they would keep it packed with people.

I'm not asking for the pastels of TOS, just a little more light. Besides, it's well known that colors have real, measurable effects on mood and it's illogical to stuff people on a starship for years on end with depressingly dark interiors. Nostromo and Galactica notwithstanding.
 


Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
 
It's just as easy to say the pips are an homage to the old Navy stripe patterns. It's also simpler to have just one set of rank insignia to learn, rather than having to learn the meaning of the stripe patterns (which are Navy) as well as the rank pins (which it has in common with the other services). You make things too complicated and you run the risk of problems like the Air Force had in the early 90s. It decided to move all the rank insignia on the fatigue uniforms to a name pach on the left breast. The problem? You had to get about a foot and a half away from someone before you could tell whether or not to salute him.
 
Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :
 
quote:
You had to get about a foot and a half away from someone before you could tell whether or not to salute him.

Yeah, I hated khakis in the Navy for that reason. Every time you walk by somebody wearing them on the street you have to squint at the stupid pins to see if they're an officer or a chief.
 


Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
'Course, if they weren't so hung up on something as petty as saluting, that wouldn't be a problem...
 
Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :
 
That reminds me. Has there been any indication that enlisted will have different uniforms?
 
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Or that they'll salute, for that matter.
 
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
 
Well, (and perhaps this might have something to do with the fact we have two ensigns in the senior staff, which is a little more in-keeping with contemporary practices), the characters refer to the N.D. extras as "Crewman" in the Broken Bow script, as opposed to "Ensign" which was pretty standard during TNG. So it looks like TPTB are going to make an effort to have a more modern-navy-style setup with fewer officers and more enlistees. Whether that'll materialize into different uniforms or not is anyone's guess; I'm hoping that at the very least we get a decent rank pip system for them.
 
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
 
chevrons!!!!

CHEV-RONSSS!!
 


Posted by Stingray (Member # 621) on :
 
hehe.

I'm with you, CaptainMike. Chevrons would be phat.

(though unlikely)
 


Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
 
I'm glad that after all the years of tripping around the issue, they finally put three chevron-looking things on O'Briens collar.

I follow a lot of military history and parlance, but im still not clear on what it means to go from 'warrant officer' (like obriens hollow pip indicated) to a master chief (which his chevrons work out to in most peoples reasoning) or if thats even likely.. anyone know?
 


Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
I don't think that would happen. The Encyclopedia may claim that a black pip means "warrant officer", but, even if it's true now, I doubt it's what it meant when O'Brien wore it.
 
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
 
quote:
I follow a lot of military history and parlance, but im still not clear
on what it means to go from 'warrant officer' (like obriens hollow pip
indicated) to a master chief (which his chevrons work out to in most
peoples reasoning) or if thats even likely.. anyone know?

That would be a demotion. A warrant officer is superior in grade to any enlisted man. He or she doesn't have the rights and responsibilities of a commissioned officer (and therefore is junior to an ensign or 2nd lieutenant), but the warrant officer still receives a salute from enlisted personnel.

To throw another problem into the mix, consider this: O'Brien was tactical officer under Captain Maxwell. That would be a strange position for a chief to have, especially since a Nebula-class ship is an explorer, Starfleet's top of the line design.
 


Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
 
Actually, O'Brien was Ben Maxwell's tactical officer on the Rutledge, which i believe was New Orleans-class...

but the fact remains.. there werent any officers on the frigate?
O'Briens had a lot of odd jobs though.. he wasnt originally a specialist in transporters, but was forced to learn fast by jury-rigging them during the First Cardassian War.. then Maxwell liked his tactical ability so much he had him do that.. then he became transporter chief on the E-D, then operations on DS9, which encompasses a lot more. And what happened when Starfleet assigned engineers who were officers? They had a few lines about it with Ensign Muniz in his episodes like 'The Ship' (O'Brien pointed out he didnt have to call him sir)
 


Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :
 
quote:
Or that they'll salute, for that matter.

Following current naval tradition, one can only salute when covered (wearing a hat). There are no uniform hats for Enterprise.
 


Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
 
actually they do wear hats on the NX-01
they say NX-01 on them
 
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
 
But not formal hats that are considered part and parcel of a full uniform.
 
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
 
I'd still love to see some epaulets on the boys and girls of NX-01.. oh well...
 
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
Hm... If you oly have to salute when wearing a hat, could you avoid saluting by taking off your hat every time a superior walks by? Pretend to be scratching your head, or something...
 
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
"O'Briens had a lot of odd jobs though.. he wasnt originally a specialist in transporters, but was forced to learn fast by jury-rigging them during the First Cardassian War.. then Maxwell liked his tactical ability so much he had him do that.. then he became transporter chief on the E-D, then operations on DS9, which encompasses a lot more.

And don't forget that he was at conn during "Farpoint".

"And what happened when Starfleet assigned engineers who were officers? They had a few lines about it with Ensign Muniz in his episodes like 'The Ship' (O'Brien pointed out he didnt have to call him sir)"

They got round that by conveniently having all engineering staff on the station and Defiant be non-coms. Which strains credibility. When Nog returned though, O'Brien was quite clearly still his superior officer (and I think Nog called him "sir" as well, although that might have just been out of respect).
 


Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
O'Brien's stint in an officer position on the Rutledge could be explained by attrition: in "The Wounded", he says he beamed down to defend part of the Setlik III colony against surface assault, and in "Armageddon Game", he says he barely managed to save his captain and a bunch of others by repairing a field transporter on Setlik III. So we might speculate that, as was typical for many starship captains, Maxwell beamed down with a big bunch of his senior officers. The Cardassians then killed a number of them, depriving the Rutledge (a ship smaller than the Voyager) of key personnel. O'Brien stood in until a starbase could be reached - partially as a reward for his heroics.

The stint at E-D battle section helm could also be due to personnel shortages - the ship was missing many key officers, after all.

Aboard DS9, however, O'Brien did command a number of officers. Both Neela and Anara, the first-season assassin and her predecessor, seemed to be Ensigns, and so were many of the uncredited Starfleet extras doing O'Brien's bidding. One or two such exceptions I could understand, especially in a fuzzy joint command structure like that, but it became pretty unrealistic after a while.

Timo Saloniemi
 


Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
Muniz was not an Ensign, as I recall. He was an enlisted man.

I guess I don't find it that hard to believe that DS9 didn't have any officers in the engineering field. It was a backwater post that was never going to go anywhere. It needed alot of grunt work done when Starfleet first took over. Now, after awhile, and especially when the Defiant was stationed there, it would seem more reasonable to have a few officers on board.
 


Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
The station's Starfleet complement need not have been very large: during the first season, about 300 people crowded the corridors in a typical day ("Captive Pursuit"), yet even in the later years, the UFP component of the crew could be evacuated by just a handful of runabouts ("Call to Arms") presumably not even making multiple trips. So it would be theoretically possible that there weren't enough officers to man the Engineering dept.

Yet we did see plenty of officers from Starfleet there, wearing yellow and yes sir'ing O'Brien. Perhaps many of these people were actually part of the Security dept, though? Just like Security could borrow LaForge's men in "Chain of Command", perhaps O'Brien was loaning people from the officer in charge of Starfleet Security forces - Primmin or somebody like him, later Eddington, then probably Worf (that Klingon is a workaholic - he'd certainly want to pull double or triple duty aboard the station).

It seems weird, though, that the person in charge of these officer-level people would be so seldom seen. And that there would be so many officers in the Security force to begin with, when Engineering would have none. I suspect the role of the top yellowshirt on the station was not to usurp Odo's role in station law enforcement, but to stand by and train for military action like invasion repelling. Only in exceptional times would Primmin and his kind take Odo's place or help him in his task. A weird arrangement in any case.

Timo Saloniemi
 


Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
 
The theory of O'Brien filling in for officers on the rutledge seems as good as any.. maybe he did it for a few years, as Maxwell really liked his spunk and just decided to not go by the book and have him on the bridge, because he needed someone he could trust there. Keeping in mind that Maxwell doesnt seem much like a cool head, maybe he made that decision.

What bothers me more is that, even though they finally acknowledged enlisted ranks in Starfleet after all those years by giving O'Brien chevrons on his collar, whenever they have crewpeople on VGR they just have blank collars.. i could imagine some variant of a single slash on the square or a single chevron on the square to indicate their rating, going along the system of O'Brien's 3 chevrons and two pippy things sewn on there
 


Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
 
As for saluting, in the British Army, when you're in the presence of a superior and you don't have a hat on, it's customary to straighten to attention until he acknowledges your presence. How he does that if he doesn't have a hat on either opens whole cans of military-issue worms. . . Tricky thing, ettiquette.
 
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
 
Probably he realizes that theres no way for him to salute you unless he goes to get a hat, so he feels so sorry for you that he cannot relieve you of your at attention status that he shoots you.
 
Posted by Michael_T (Member # 144) on :
 
Oh they are creative...at taking things from the TNG era and remaking them into something new and shiny...
 
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
 
I think the reason that O'Brien wears his chevrons and most enlisted men do not is that O'Brien is more or less a bridge 'officer'.

Possibly to avoid painful situations in which newly fledged ensigns start ordering the Chief Engineer of a starbase around
 


Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :
 
quote:
Hm... If you oly have to salute when wearing a hat, could you avoid saluting by taking off your hat every time a superior walks by? Pretend to be scratching your head, or something...

Well yes. But then you would get busted for being outside without a hat on.

quote:
What bothers me more is that, even though they finally acknowledged enlisted ranks in Starfleet after all those years by giving O'Brien chevrons on his collar, whenever they have crewpeople on VGR they just have blank collars.. i could imagine some variant of a single slash on the square or a single chevron on the square to indicate their rating, going along the system of O'Brien's 3 chevrons and two pippy things sewn on there

Something like this?
http://tylgre.tripod.com/Enlisted.gif

It was created for the LUG Star Trek RPG's Players Guide but ended up never being used. I rather like it.

[ September 14, 2001: Message edited by: Obi Juan ]


 
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
 
still think its because the producers dont understand anyone who isnt a college boy like they are....
 
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Oh yes, that's the most likely explanation.
 
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
Yes. Good thing that they've got a Brit pretending to be French on the writing team, or they wouldn't know how to write for Picard either.
 


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