What is going ON in the world!?! Enterprise - GOOD!?!
Hey, I never HATED it but it's rare to get a string of GREAT episodes like this!!
That is 3 for 3 now in Season 2. I just watched Minefield during dinner. OK might've been a LITTLE slow - but there was this constant uneasiness throughout the whole show - like what's next!!
The Romulan ships were fantastic. The whole thing fit with continuity VERY nicely.
MALCOLM CHARACTERISATION! Maybe they are learning that a good show requires solid characters!!
Hoshi and the Doctor were fantabulous - as always!
T'Pol/Archer bit where he leaves her standing - great.
Some NICE shots from above the ship.
Not too much tech - nice.
Did anyone go "oh shit" when the B'soP turn up - at any time!?!
Nice continuity. The Suliban cloak detector (Maybe Dumbledore has possession of one of these?)
Even continuity where Malcolm is concerned back from "Silent Enemy" - no one knowing much about him.
Oh and they actually WORRY if there are any fatalities - unlike Voyager.
Andrew
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
You'll like the next episode (Dead Stop) too for all he same reasons you liked this one. Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I agree with you on this one, Andrew. Great ep.
-MMoM Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
This redeems you for the "Carbon Creek" post. Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Hey bugger off FG!!
Carbon Creek is still my favourite Enterprise (along with Dear Doctor) so far. Minefield is up there.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
*snicker*
He said "bugger"... Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Yes, people not from the US tend to say that.
Bugger.
Posted by switchbladeNGC (Member # 983) on :
Am I mistaken or did Kirk in "The Enterprise Incident" cross over the Romulan Neutral Zone and into Romulan space to see if the Romulans had developed a Cloaking Device? If I am not mistaken he asked Spock why they didn't detect the Romulans until they were on top of the Enterprise, and Spock suggested they were using a cloaking device.
If that is the case wouldn't the presence of Romulan ships with cloaking devices on Enterprise make that eppisode inaccurate as the Federation would have known about the Romulan cloaking device already. (and I am sure the Romulans would have used their cloaking devices durring the war.)
[ April 07, 2003, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: switchbladeNGC ]
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Maybe a condition of the Romulan War was the end to the use, or of FURTHER development of cloaking devices. I'm guessing NOT using it ever again.
They were going over the Neutral Zone to see if the Romulans had indeed test that assumption. They'd have needed a pretty big reason to do that.
I can't remember were they also responding to the destruction of some Neutral Zone bases (or did those happen after the episode started?) Maybe they weren't ever equipped with cloaking nets or anything - cause the condition was NO CLOAKS?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Topher: Yes, people not from the US tend to say that.
Bugger.
There are people not from the US? I thought that was just an urban legend, like the boogeyman or Pat Robertson.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Yes, its true. And I am one of them... Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Maybe a condition of the Romulan War was the end to the use, or of FURTHER development of cloaking devices. I'm guessing NOT using it ever again.
They were going over the Neutral Zone to see if the Romulans had indeed test that assumption. They'd have needed a pretty big reason to do that.
I can't remember were they also responding to the destruction of some Neutral Zone bases (or did those happen after the episode started?) Maybe they weren't ever equipped with cloaking nets or anything - cause the condition was NO CLOAKS?
IIRC, the episode starts with the bases on "our side" of the Neutral Zone being destroyed. The Enterpise responds, the Romulan ship heads home, the Enterprise pursues and during the course of the battle, the two ships enter the Neutral Zone....I think. The implication is that the cloaking device (or I suppose to rationalise ENT, this generation of the cloacking device) is new, and the Romulans wanted to test whether we had the technology or the backbone to counter it.
As for "The Enterprise Incident", my memory is completely non-prsent, so voila synopsis
From the synopsis, it sounds like more a grab and dash, to get an engineering sample of the latest cloaking device presumeably to develop countermeasures.
One also has to consider the "Treaty of Algeron", referenced in TNG "The Pegasus", in Picard's words how its kept the peace between the Federation and the Romulans for X years and prohibits Federation R&D into their own cloaking device.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
The Enterprise's mission in "The Enterprise Incident" was in fact to STEAL the design for a NEWLY-IMPROVED/UPRATED Romulan cloaking device that Starfleet had learned was in development.
They had found out about the Romulans' cloak two seasons earlier in "Balance of Terror." It is in fact true that in that episode the crew reacted to the Romulan cloak as if it were a totally new concept to them, but of course "Minefield" has retconned this.
This is in fact one of the VERY few true continuity errors of any consequence that have been seen so far on ENT. But, IMHO, it probably makes more sense that the Romulans had at least primitive cloaking technology during the War period, rather than it being a totally new invention in the post-War isolation as implied in BoT. It's probably fairly easy to re-interpret BoT to mean that the cloak the Romulan vessel in that episode had was simply a more advanced form of the technology than existed in the 2150s. (Perhaps not so easily detected as the cloaks in "Minefield" were.)
-MMoM Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Hmmm, which brings up an interesting question. Those mines were easily detectable only because of the scanner/thingies that Daniels helped develop for the Enterpise. Otherwise, the Enterprise would have stopped after hitting the first one, and have had no way of detecting the others. Presumably they could have just reversed course, but the implication (due to the fancy piloting by Mayweather) is that they were in fairly deep already. Thus in the "real" timeline, the Enterpise would probably just have continued hitting cloaked mines getting either destroyed or disabled in the process.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Nope. Enterprise still could have rigged the torpedos for high yield detonation on timers and cleared a path along the route the entered the systen from. Hell, if they became really desperate they could go slowly and have a shuttlepod on remote guide the way....or mabye Mayweather could be in the shuttle. Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The other thing to consider is that the Romulans didn't seem to have much of an interest in simply destroying the ship. They mainly wanted it out of their space, one way or another. I suspect that, lacking a fancy cloak detector, the Romulans might have just escorted Enterprise out of the minefield, or given them the right course to follow. After all, they insisted Enterprise leave, not surrender. Though, if I were the Romulans, I don't know if I'd be so quick to let a ship go that could so obviously see through my hidden minefield without asking a few questions first.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
I can see that, had Enterprise been able to see through the Rom ships cloak. Seeing that Enterprise could not, the Roms probably figured it was best to just let them leave rather then face contact and the possible necessity to have to destroy them and tempt fate of another SF ship coming to look for them risking further contact or buggerin up continuity. I think a xenophobic race would rather avoid contact rather then tempt further contact. Enterprise should be counting its blessing it got out of there in one piece and not further irritate the Roms. It may be possible that it comes back to this, futher on down the line, and contact is made or an irritation is made and ultimately causes our "Earth-Romualan War".
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I liked how Hoshi heard "Romolan" - i.e. you hear of Romulus and Remus or Romolo and Remus. What is the origin of the two types of names - just translation?
So what is wrong with my suggestion that the Romulans had been forbidden cloak technology since the end of the E-R war? They could have been suprised/lollygagged at the fact that none of them would have seen Romulan cloaking before/or that it hadn't been seen in use for over 100 years or that they were shocked to see it at all? Or that the Romulans had the audacity to use their cloaks?
OR another suggestion
Maybe Romulan cloaking technology was kept a secret by the Romulans by the war and after it? Thus most (maybe only Ent) ever see a Romulan actually cloak/uncloak?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: I liked how Hoshi heard "Romolan" - i.e. you hear of Romulus and Remus or Romolo and Remus. What is the origin of the two types of names - just translation?
Whoa, whoa...you said 'Remus' twice and I dont ever recall 'Romolo' from anything before. Is that some sort of Romulan chocolate covered carmel candy??
quote: So what is wrong with my suggestion that the Romulans had been forbidden cloak technology since the end of the E-R war?
How would the Federation prevent them from building the technology? The NZ was established and obviously there was no occupation of the Rom Emp so there is no way to prevent the Romulans from creating such a device. The Treaty of Algeron forbid the Federation from creating a cloak, but that obviously didnt stop them from making it.
quote: They could have been suprised/lollygagged at the fact that none of them would have seen Romulan cloaking before/or that it hadn't been seen in use for over 100 years or that they were shocked to see it at all?
I kind of thought that once, but upon reviewing "Bal of Terr.." you really don't get that brand of shockvalue from their conversation regarding the Romulans or the cloak. The Romulans were simply a mystery.
Stiles was, at least, aware of their ship design, but I believe Spock said that cloaking was "theoretical".
Now unless you just want to go with the idea that everyone can not know everything about the practicality of cloaking technology (as perhaps they did not have access to the blueprints or technology for that matter) so therefore Spock may need to plead ignorance to a technology that is virtually or completely nonexistance to Federation science. Considering how Stiles seemed to be the only one even remotely aware of what a Romulan ship probably looks like, then information in that area seems to be sketchy.
quote: Maybe Romulan cloaking technology was kept a secret by the Romulans by the war and after it? Thus most (maybe only Ent) ever see a Romulan actually cloak/uncloak?
I highly doubt this. The Romulans certainly didnt seem to worry about the Enterprise witnessing their ships cloaking or decloaking, otherwise they would have simply decloaked on the farside of the planet and approached in a manner that would suggest they didnt have cloaking tech. All they cared about was that Enterprise got out of their system.
I think cloaking technology is the essence of the Romulans in everything we know of them, and I am sure that that is a definative advanage for them tactically, both offensively and defensively.
Once the Romulans lost the war they probably began one of their first bouts of isolation in the face of a new more powerful enemy than themselves (the Federation). They would reappear in the 2260s once they developed new, more powerful weapons, such as plasma torpedoes+cloak to test their "enemies". They formed an alliance with the Klingons along the way, did some technology swapping for a while, then went back into isolation by 2311 and became bitter enemies with the Klingons in the meantime (probably once they acquired what they needed to continue in the advance of their civilization). Finally they would reemerge in the 2360s to the rest of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants as a major force, as they once again developed a new, more powerful ships and technology.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Perhaps a lot of SF records from the Terro-Romulan War and before were destroyed during the war? An attack on some major data repository on Earth, or something. Romulan cloaks would just be a story told by a few war veterans whom no-one believed.
"And then, the ship just materialized out of nowhere!"
"Uh-huh. Sure, grandpa. And you had to warp fifty light-years to school every day in an ion storm, against the subspace stream both ways..."
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN: "And then, the ship just materialized out of nowhere!"
"Uh-huh. Sure, grandpa. And you had to warp fifty light-years to school every day in an ion storm, against the subspace stream both ways..."
ROTFLMAO!!!
I'm using that. Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy:
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: I liked how Hoshi heard "Romolan" - i.e. you hear of Romulus and Remus or Romolo and Remus. What is the origin of the two types of names - just translation?
Whoa, whoa...you said 'Remus' twice and I dont ever recall 'Romolo' from anything before. Is that some sort of Romulan chocolate covered carmel candy??
HELLO! Romolo and Remus - the she-wolf... founding of Rome - ring any bells FuGu?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"HELLO! Romolo and Remus - the she-wolf... founding of Rome - ring any bells FuGu?"
It shouldn't. That name is "Romulus", too.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Romulus/Romolo and Remus/Remo
look it up.
Maybe Romolo and Remo are the Italian versions and not an Anglisised version?
Okay, I don't know anything about Italian, so those may very well be the Italian versions. But I can't see how Italian enters into it. The name are Latin, and we're speaking about them in English, so they're still "Romulus" and "Remus" either way. Or "ROMVLVS" and "REMVS" in Latin, if you prefer. Suddenly tossing the name "Romolo" about would be like if I suddenly started calling you "Andreas".
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
But what I'm saying it was cute that they threw in the 'other' version of the name Romulus... that being Romolo - wether that's Italian or not. The legend of the founding of Rome has - from what I've heard had those two names - for both Romulus and Remus - interchangable.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote: But what I'm saying it was cute that they threw in the 'other' version of the name Romulus... that being Romolo - wether that's Italian or not. The legend of the founding of Rome has - from what I've heard had those two names - for both Romulus and Remus - interchangable.
"They" who??? Romolo is a term that has never been used in Trek lore.
Romulus and Remus are not interchangable, nor is one the 'other' version of the other, because they are not the same person. They were, indeed, twin brothers and the son of the god Mars. The she-wolf, as far as I know, had no name which contributed to the story.
Anyway, long story short, Romulus ended up killing Remus over a strife that was contrived between the two when Romulus was chosen as the new leader of Rome. The End.
Oh, and nothing, I say, nothing sir, is 'cute' about Star Trek!!
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I think what Andrew is trying to say is this:
"Romolo" is in real life a variant of "Romulus." (As "Remo" is of "Remus.")
He just thought it was slightly neat that when Hoshi first said the name of the Romulans in "Minefield," she pronounced in "Romolans." (Before being corrected by T'Pol.)
Clear now?
-MMoM Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Got it in one Mim! Thankyou.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Anyone think the Romulanese spoken sounded a little like the - admittedly only 3 words we've heard that are Romulan (apart from ship and name proper names).
The presumably very nasty Romulan swear-word "Verruul" that Riker retorts back to Jalok, in "The Defector".
and "Jolan Tru"?
I'm not too sure on Jolan Tru - but that guy talking had words sounding similart to Verruul!
Also it was very aprubpt like Klingon - evidence of more cross-cultural contamination between Klingons and Romulans over the years?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I really doubt it. And Hoshi simply mispronounced "Romulans." I can't see reading anything else into it.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
But she could have said "Rodians" but she said "Romolans" which is cute - cause it's the other version of the name Romulus.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
It's dead, Jim...
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
So, who wants to discuss the admiral dude (i forget which) that made the mispronunciation of "Klingon" in the pilot....???
[ April 14, 2003, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: Futurama Guy ]
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Admiral Leonard, actually. Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
That was just for cheap laughs and non-fans.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
No, its the same thing...: NOTHING!!!!
Certainly if I were pronouncing the name of an ALIEN SPECIES for the first time I wouldn't get it right...
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: That was just for cheap laughs and non-fans.
I'm pretty sure that a sizeable percentage of the non-fan population (that actually watched TV) has heard the term "Klingons" before.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I think that was the point. If someone mispronounced "Mintakan" or something, your average television viewer wouldn't know it until the other characters said something. If someone mispronounces "Klingon", though, Joe Couchpotato can say to himself "ha-ha, that dork said 'Klingon' wrong; what a moron".
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Thankyou TSN - that's what I meant.
Ok that's twice in one thread... do *I* need Hoshi? (well yes - but that's beside the point!) Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: I liked how Hoshi heard "Romolan" - i.e. you hear of Romulus and Remus or Romolo and Remus. What is the origin of the two types of names - just translation?
Upon rewatching it and catching the cc on the spelling she said "Romalin"...therefore making it be just her translation and nothing more sinisterly in-depth than that.
Also, the thing that bothered me was the incident where Malcolm basically tried to moreless attempt suicide and Archer told him he was lucky he doesn't bust him back to crewman for that stunt and so on....
Why, oh why, the hell is this guy still serving on this ship??! I'm pretty sure that any officer of the modern navies or other branch that attempted suicide as 'the easy way out' would have had his ass canned in a heartbeat, but nothing came of Malcolms incident whatsoever. That is some piss poor decipline if you ask me, Picard would gave him shit about it like Worf always got. Lets not forget to mention the fact that Archer now has a frickin' suicidal Armory officer...! Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Different command styles. And it actually makes Malcolm a *gasp* interesting character.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Yeah, he was acting kind of weird around Trip in the finale...
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: Also, the thing that bothered me was the incident where Malcolm basically tried to moreless attempt suicide and Archer told him he was lucky he doesn't bust him back to crewman for that stunt and so on....
Why, oh why, the hell is this guy still serving on this ship??! I'm pretty sure that any officer of the modern navies or other branch that attempted suicide as 'the easy way out' would have had his ass canned in a heartbeat, but nothing came of Malcolms incident whatsoever. That is some piss poor decipline if you ask me, Picard would gave him shit about it like Worf always got. Lets not forget to mention the fact that Archer now has a frickin' suicidal Armory officer...!
He was just trying to do the "honorable" thing and sacrifice himself to save the ship. He was mistaken, of course. But the fact that that's what his motivation was somewhat excuses him...
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN: I think that was the point. If someone mispronounced "Mintakan" or something, your average television viewer wouldn't know it until the other characters said something. If someone mispronounces "Klingon", though, Joe Couchpotato can say to himself "ha-ha, that dork said 'Klingon' wrong; what a moron".
I suspect their intentions were not so that people would think the admiral was stupid, but more so that the audience would understand that 'Klingons' were not common knowledge in the timeframe of this new show. It's pretty clever actually, because it's pretty funny and in two lines of dialogue very succinctly establishes this as pre-TOS.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)