I thought I'd move this out of the other thread, which I guess is now all about this episode, but wasn't originally.
I was going to talk about how "Cogenitor" and "Regeneration" (both of which I saw last night) felt like mixed bags, but on second thought I have less to say about the former than the latter.
So, Borg, huh? I'm as fond of dramatic irony as anyone, maybe more so. "Well, let's prepare to fight these weird cyborg guys," while the audience knows they don't have a chance. (Though, I guess they did. But stay with me.) There are lots of neat ways to creep the audience out when they know something about a situation that the characters don't. So, when the scientists found the wreckage from the Borg sphere I was ready to put any continuity fears aside and enjoy The Thing With Two Bodies.
Where I think the episode falls down is in the cultivation of this tension between what the audience and the characters know. Consider: Archer has every reason to believe that the Earth is a potential battleground in a temporal cold war. So shouldn't one of his first assumptions be that these super advanced aliens represent one faction or another? I would have really enjoyed watching the crew draw entirely wrong conclusions about the Borg, based on their own situation. And, really, it only makes sense. Not only are there super advanced aliens running around on Earth, but apparently Cochrane occassionally told the beer-fueled tale of alien cyborgs from the future now and then. Connecting them to the TCW seems only logical. But, that isn't done.
From the other side, we see the Borg acting kind of oddly, compared to what we know of them, what with the exceedingly slow partial assimilations and such. There are lots of good reasons why this might be the case. There was more than one Voyager episode demonstrating that, when cut off from the collective, "mini-collectives" of surviving drones are often not the most rational of agents. But this isn't done either. Now, this isn't completely non-understandable. If the characters don't rightly know how the Borg are supposed to act, they can't go around declaring that they've been damaged thanks to reentry and a century of deep freeze. But I would have enjoyed this episode a bit more if we had some idea of what was going on with the Borg, and I would have enjoyed it a lot more if the characters had been allowed to come to some reasonable but completely wrong conclusions. What if Archer assumed that this marked a ratcheting up of the conflict, and made future TCW-related decisions based on that faulty understanding. More irony! Alas.
Anyway, a quick rundown of things I liked and things I didn't, some of which may be rehashing points made in the tech thread, but I haven't read that yet.
Pros:
I enjoyed the opening scenes in the arctic, though they got a bit too horror movieish at one or two spots.
The design of the assimilated transport. I'm not sure why it needed warp drive, but once the Borg reworked the thing it looked ominous and cool.
Phlox. He made assimilation seem scary again, even if it was an oddly retarded version of the same. (Er, retarded in terms of its progression through his body.)
The general "Does anyone have any clue what's going on here?" "Nope." that Archer and company gave off.
Cons:
Magical assimilation. "The transport has increased in mass by two percent." Eh, oh? That's a neat trick. Almost as neat as the partially assimilated...Tarkalien? (It has alien right in the name! Maybe.) making weird boxes and circuitry appear out of nowhere instantaneously. Boo. Though, I did like the idea of them loading BorgOS onto the ship's computer.
The failure to tie this episode in with the show as a whole, even though it seems to me that there was at least one very good way of advancing one of the ongoing plots.
Uh, I guess it also bugged me that the plasma rifles now seem to be phase rifles. But this isn't even the first time they've shown them shooting in beams, so I don't know, and this sort of thing is hardly a dealbreaker for me.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Well, the way the nanoprobes reproduce by duplicating themselves could help explain the increase in mass of the transport. I like the way that the transport was assimilated, in an assymmetrical fashion. This gives some insight into Borg design. Perhaps Lore's ship in "Descent" was assimilated from something else, thus it was assymmetrical?
Also, I really liked the music in this episode.
NOTE: This post was made before I read Dan's comment in the Tech forum...
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Think about this for a moment. Where is that extra mass coming from, again?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
This is a tech-y response, but you can't have everything, right?
Well, there's the self-replicating minefield from DS9, which according to the TM used the zero-point energy method to create new particles which could be gradually assembled into new replacement mines. Given the advanced Borg technical know-how, it's possible they could do something like that, on a more massive scale.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Isn't there some theory about Borg vessels that vary in mass based on how much they have assimilated?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
That sounds like a Ferengi philosiphy. Success based on how much one has aquired. What I would'nt have done to have seen Vastator on a TNG two parter....
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The ZPE explanation for magic mines makes my eyes twitch menacingly.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: Isn't there some theory about Borg vessels that vary in mass based on how much they have assimilated?
quote:Listed under 'Cube variant 1': 3) Although it has never been mentioned on screen, it has been suggested that a cube may grow as new technology and new drones are assimilated. This would ultimately explain all the size differences. In particular, it would explain why the cube (variant 1), after a longer journey through the Beta and Alpha Quadrants, may be so much larger than variant 2 which we see in the Delta Quadrant. On the other hand, this would render any attempt to classify Borg ships futile as they would be extended and modified in a chaotic fashion.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
But that variance in mass is because the cube has come across something that is has assimilated and added to the cube. In the case of this episode, the ship just gains mass from no-where.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote: But that variance in mass is because the cube has come across something that is has assimilated and added to the cube. In the case of this episode, the ship just gains mass from no-where.
quote:On the other hand, this would render any attempt to classify Borg ships futile as they would be extended and modified in a chaotic fashion.
How much more chaotic than that can you get? Logic is irrelevant! Resistance is Futile! Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The probably took a chunk of the freighter's warp core and engines with them: thus eplaining the possible sudden increase in speed and mass.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Just to get this cleared up. Or at least not muddied down further...
When is the comment made on 3% mass increase? Could it be that this is the first time T'Pol measures the mass of the vessel, and the 3% is in relation to the design specs of the original transport? Or is it in relation to whatever readings Earth managed to get of the vessel when it departed the crash scene?
The latter would make perfect sense. As Jason sez, stuff could have been assimilated from the Tarkalean (Tarchallen?) ship via transporter or tractor beam before the Enterprise arrived, but the mass readings would be the only hint of that for our heroes.
Incidentally, did the transport ship originally have a transporter aboard, or did the Borg build one from scratch?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Tarkalean. From the Tarkalean tea, Tarkalean hawk, Tarkalean condor and Tarkalean flu from several DS9 and VOY episodes.
And the transporter effect was very Borg looking, so I assume it was a Borg transporter.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: Incidentally, did the transport ship originally have a transporter aboard, or did the Borg build one from scratch?
I assume they salvaged it from the sphere.
Or perhaps the transport ship had a transporter that could only transport inanimate objects, and they upgraded it using components from the sphere.
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
OK, Regeneration fits in with established canon, though it could do with a bucketload of industrial-grade lubricant.
My peeve with the episode (continuity issues aside) lies in the liberties it takes to rewrite Q Who - which was about Picard's arrogance, his firm conviction that humanity could handle whatever the universe might throw their way. But Regeneration ignores what Q was doing and why, and so alters the message Q Who presented, tones it down, lessens the impact. You know?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote: My peeve with the episode (continuity issues aside) lies in the liberties it takes to rewrite Q Who - which was about Picard's arrogance, his firm conviction that humanity could handle whatever the universe might throw their way. But Regeneration ignores what Q was doing and why, and so alters the message Q Who presented, tones it down, lessens the impact. You know?
I thought that Dork Frontier had already done all that.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, technically, one could argue that "The Neutral Zone" did that, though no one was particularly concerned about it at the time. Unfortunately, the Borg chronology has been all but incomprehensible since their first appearence, leaving the door open for just about any story.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I always wondered if some major conflict on the other side of the Romulan Empire had kept them from any dealings with the Federation for all that time. I wonder how many ships and colonies were taken by a Borg scout before the Neutral Zone. Did the Romulans destroy a Sphere or other Borg ship after the NZ episode? If not, the cube in BOBW may have been the one that was lurking around for a couple of years already. I doubt the Romulans would have told the Enterprise the true extent of their losses. Possibly they had fought off a series of lesser scout ships over many years and their colonies getting scooped up was something new to them.
Just an idle thought.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
See, that's what I'm talking about. Such a story is perfectly possible, even though the idea leaves me very cold.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Freeze, Sol system!!!
Giant plot holes are all that allow us fans to explain away the glaring inconsistantcies between each series. Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Except that the cube would have been hanging around for more than a "couple of years", if you are implying that this is what person-who-looked-like-Dukat meant when he said "other matters have forced our attention to not be here because we weren't so there but we are now ooooooh scary". The Romulans had been in isolation for about 50-60 years. Can you really see a cube hanging around for that long without once (okay, more than once) wandering over to the Federation or the Klingon Empire? And do you really think there'd be a Romulan Empire left after those 60 years?
Posted by Sorak (Member # 874) on :
Just a brief aside, open for debate...
My theory: Nomad in TOS (I forget which episode): Assimilated by Borg. The Borg's original philosophy, instead of assimilating people and adding distinctivness to their own, and acheiving perfection, they might have just wanted to destroy inferior life-forms. Just assimilate technology. Then they "evolved" the principles of assimilation. (If we're assuming the Borg of "Regeneration" are left-overs from ST:FC, this doesn't violate continuity, since they were saying Archer and CO were going to be assimilated.)
V'ger in ST:TMP: Assimilated by Borg. A little later on, the Borg developed the idea of combining man and machine, and there we have V'ger's directives.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
That kind of let's-tie-everything-under-the-sun-together-with-one-string theory really, really bothers me.
Posted by Sorak (Member # 874) on :
That's your problem. Go suck a lemon.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Umm right...Im not sure I can buy the theory that anytime an old Earth space probe gets enhanced the Borg are to blame. The Borg certainly aren't the only advanced species in the galaxy capible of altering space probes....I mean, just in TOS alone, look how many superior advanced races Kirk encountered...
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
quote:Go suck a lemon.
THAT IS FUNNY BECAUSE SIMON IS A SOURPUSS IN THE MEAT WORLD AS WELL
So he is immune to lemons, I fear. They'd only make him stronger!
And then he'd do to you with philosophy what Patrick Swayze did to unruly bar patrons with 'Redneck Ninja Karate�' in the 1989 American Classic, Road House.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Last night I even had lemon chicken.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Sky have gotten around to seeing the episode, and I just had two thoughts to add:
I don't mind the ending at all, and I still think it works with regards to "Q Who".
1/ Borg send out distress call in 2152.
2/ Borg in 24 century receive it. Cube heads towards Earth.
3/ Several years later, Picard forgets the difference between being confident, and being a smart-arsed smug git. He says "We can handle anything". Q says "oh, really?", and sends Picard off to meet the Borg ship that is slowly making it's way to Earth.
After all, there's no reason to assume that even after getting the message, the Borg would scream "Oh my God! Earth! That's SOOOOO cool! Let's get there as quickly as possible". They might have sent a ship in that general direction, and that ship was assimilating small civilisations on the way.
Of course, that ignores "The Neutral Zone", but "Q Who" sort of did that anyway.
And if it really bothers you, then just pretend that this episode never happened in the pre-First Contact timeline, and it's all a happy conincidence. "Hey, look! We've reveived a message from the past telling us to invade Earth. Convienient that we're already doing that. Woo!"
Point two: I thought the reason behind the partial assimilation of the alien dudes was because Phlox had used Something Magical to slow down the nanoprobes.
Oh, and finally: I'm still not getting how the transport gained mass. It didn't stop. Where did it come from? Eh? Eh?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote: Oh, and finally: I'm still not getting how the transport gained mass. It didn't stop. Where did it come from? Eh? Eh?
When Enterprise caught up wih the ship, it was cutting chunks out of the Tarkalian vessel. Which was actually a pretty neat tie-in to "Q Who", I don't think we ever saw the borg using cutting beam like that since then.
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