Okay, so I'm not exactly enthusiastic about the subject that ENT's taking for this upcoming and much-hyped arc for the third season. It's got the feel of trying too hard to be something it's not.
But at the same time, isn't this exactly what we've been calling for for quite a while? More connected storylines, a more defined purpose for the series.
I think that Scott Bakula makes a good point here, and perfectly sums up the potential benefits of using this type of storyline.
quote:"I'm very excited about it," Bakula told Kathie Huddleston at Science Fiction Weekly during a press conference to promote Enterprise's new season. "I love the sense of purpose, of intensity, of sense of mission. And it's not like I'm not a fan of the prior Star Trek franchises where it was kind of a planet every week. But ... it just feels like the right time to really get into something that has arc, that will survive not just the standalone episodes per se. That will have something for the fans to really hook onto every week and really get involved with. So I'm very excited about it."
Source: TrekToday
I'm not exactly eager, but I'm definitely at least interested in seeing where this story will go. Regardless of the silliness and boredom that prevailed through most of "The Expanse" (for me, anyway), I think there's at least the possibility of some improvement here.
Yeah, for a lot of fans there's been a sense of constant waiting for the show to improve, to come into its own... and after six years of waiting for Voyager to come out of the toilet, this is pretty frustrating. But it *did* take TNG three years to find its stride, after all...
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
A story arc - OK
A story arc about war and vengeance and weird aliens no-one has ever heard of - not OK
IMO, doing a prequel was a really bad idea. They should've known that there was no way to make it work good enough without - what they call - "confusing the casual viewer".
I'm sorry if I sound a bit too negative, but I'm just annoyed with turning the 22nd century into EXACTLY THE SAME as the 24th century. I mean.. what's the point of a prequel if you don't make any changes to your stories?
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
With the exeception of a bald Frenchman in command of Enterprise, what would you say was the difference in the stories between TOS (23rd) and TNG (24th)?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Posted by Harry: A story arc about war and vengeance and weird aliens no-one has ever heard of - not OK
Agreed there, completely. That's what I meant before about not being so sure about the subject matter.
However, some of that can be argued to be related more and more to the temporal hijinks that've been going on. For all we know the Xindi could actually be from around 70,000 light-years away and are actually the Kazon working under a pseudonym, trying to erase the Federation before Janeway shows up and shows them how bad their hairdos really were.
quote:Posted by Snay: With the exeception of a bald Frenchman in command of Enterprise, what would you say was the difference in the stories between TOS (23rd) and TNG (24th)?
There was a lot less of the "boldly going" in TNG after the third season. Die-hard TOS fans could probably say that it's not real Star Trek based on that argument.
Hmm, I just remembered something... My mom has a childhood friend that she keeps in touch with occasionally. The friend was a huge fan of Trek during the original run (she had a major crush on Mr. Spock, I'm told) and was the one who got my mom interested in the show. I'm told that she has never watched ANY of the later shows at all (TNG and onwards), and has no interest in them.
To get back to the original topic, though, I'm glad (to a certain extent) that they're at least *TRYING* something different, something to get the series out of first gear.
Posted by blssdwlf (Member # 1024) on :
Hmmm,
Wouldn't any of these arcs be better?
- The Earth-Romulan war. The build-up to it, the actual war and the aftermath.
- The founding of the Federation and all the diplomacy and politics of getting all the members to join.
- They could have episodes between major points to show how big space is to them at the time. Imagine if it took 4 episodes to get to a destination and adventures interwoven in the between episodes.
But its unlikely since, they've manage to be way out of continuity and showing no signs of correcting itself. Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Well... I think they might be building up to a point where Humans are well known enough to be able to spearhead the formation of the Federation. Maybe this excursion into the Expanse will help that. They've got a few years yet before the Federation needs to be founded. The series may end before they get to that, but we'll be left with the impression that things are headed in that direction. That'll leave things wide open for the sixth series... Star Trek: Federation.
As for the Romulan War... it's going to be a tight squeeze. Imagine... after two or three years in the Expanse (assuming they're in there that long), Enterprise returns to Earth only to find themselves in the middle of another war.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Plus the weird fact that no human "or ally" has ever seen a Romulan makes it a bit strange for television. Never having face-to-face contact with the villians will be hard to keep up in a continuous Romulan War arc.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Faceless enemies, when handled right, can be quite effective. After all, we never got any real hint of who the Shadows were and what they wanted until B5's third season finale...
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: Imagine... after two or three years in the Expanse (assuming they're in there that long), Enterprise returns to Earth only to find themselves in the middle of another war.
You assume that the Enterprise, a ship with relatively little internal volume for consumables, using an engine that can't be that efficient considering its technological immaturity, and with no onboard anti-matter conversion ability can run in deep space for two, much less three continuous years. I dunno, maybe they knocked over a couple Xindi gas stations while trying to stop them, or even more likely, they're going to develop the technology to make anti-matter right onboard their own bloody ship.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by blssdwlf: Hmmm,
Wouldn't any of these arcs be better?
- The Earth-Romulan war. The build-up to it, the actual war and the aftermath.
- The founding of the Federation and all the diplomacy and politics of getting all the members to join.
- They could have episodes between major points to show how big space is to them at the time. Imagine if it took 4 episodes to get to a destination and adventures interwoven in the between episodes.
Maybe, no, and dear god no.
Or, more seriously:
Romulan War: There are several potential problems with this. The fact that everyone knows what is going to happen is perhaps a minor one. Not showing a Romulan throughout the entire war is going to be much harder. And the Shadows aren't really a far comparison. One the one hand, a bunch of humanoid aliens with pointy ears, and the other...an ancient race from when the galaxy was formed.
It could be good. And there's still plenty of time for them to do it, but it's not a sure thing, by any means.
Founding of the Federation: Enterprise turns up somewhere. They say "join us!" Aliens say "no!" Enterprise says "please!" Aliens say "okay!" Repeat 150 times. Fun!
Or, if you want to increase the fun, we could have 3 seasons of the Vulcans arguing with the Andorians about the wording of the 5th paragraph of the Federation consitution. Even more fun!
Long distances: Er, isn't this pretty much what happens anyway, and what has happened with every Star Trek show? Some adventures happen on planets, some in space. The ones in space we assume happen while they are on their way to a planet (or nebula, or blue glowy thing).
Or do you mean you want 4 episodes of "We'll be there in 4 weeks!", "We'll be there in 3 weeks!", "We'll be there in 2 weeks!", "We'll be there in a week!", "We're there. Oh, there's nothing here. Oh well, on to the next planet. We'll be there in 4 weeks!"
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote: Not showing a Romulan throughout the entire war is going to be much harder.
Well, they don't necessarily have to not show any Romulans, just make sure Archer & co don't see any.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
And I think the show has already made some small steps towards outlining the political issues facing any attempt to form a Federation, and has done so quite well, so far.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Agreed on that account. Though Soval (and most Vulcans) have been portrayed as complete assholes for all the wrong reasons, the politics of the Vulcan/Andorian conflict still seem to have the potential to become quite compelling.
The Shadows, not a fair comparison? I dunno... based on TOS, Archer & Co. should have absolutely NO IDEA what the Romulans look like, thus offering at least SOME possibility for mystery. Yeah, the Shadows were hyped up a lot more in terms of relative power to the Earth and Minbari forces, but still... a faceless enemy is a faceless enemy.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Except the Shadow thing is totally different then the Romulans. The Shadows were a mystery that was revealed eventually. The Romulans, it seems, can't be.
Though, really, it isn't the best analogy anyway, since the mechanics of the story would be completely different. With the Shadows, the characters know more about the situation than the audience, whereas with the Romulans it is just the opposite.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Or do you mean you want 4 episodes of 'We'll be there in 4 weeks!', 'We'll be there in 3 weeks!', 'We'll be there in 2 weeks!', 'We'll be there in a week!', 'We're there. Oh, there's nothing here. Oh well, on to the next planet. We'll be there in 4 weeks!'"
I think (or hope) hat he ment something more like: in one episode, they say they're heading for n. During the next episode or two, they have regular adventures. Then, in the episode after that, they arrive at n, thus making it clear that it took them a while. Rather than the usual "We'll be there in fifteen days, okay, we've arrived.".
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Maybe. But in the end, will that really make much of a difference? Do people wet themselves with excitement remembering how, at the end of a season 2 TNG episode they were heading for the Morgana quadrant, and then, in the next episode, they were still heading there?
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
The Child. And yes!
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
It doesn't make a huge amount of difference. But it would be a nice touch that would show that at least a bit of thought is being put into the show.
Posted by blssdwlf (Member # 1024) on :
quote:Originally posted by blssdwlf: Hmmm,
Wouldn't any of these arcs be better?
- The Earth-Romulan war. The build-up to it, the actual war and the aftermath.
- The founding of the Federation and all the diplomacy and politics of getting all the members to join.
- They could have episodes between major points to show how big space is to them at the time. Imagine if it took 4 episodes to get to a destination and adventures interwoven in the between episodes.
But its unlikely since, they've manage to be way out of continuity and showing no signs of correcting itself.
OK, lemme clarify my thoughts about this:
Foundation: Earth tech is primitive, limited to laser/particle direct fire weapons and nuclear missiles. Nuclear weapons (thermonuclear warheads, tricobalt warheads, etc) considered the most powerful weapons of the time. Warp speed is limited to less than Warp 5. Earth and Romulan offense and defense evenly matched, ex: Earth nukes will critically damage or destroy a Romulan ship with one hit and vice-versa. Close range combat ill-advised. Survival is from shooting down/intercepting incoming missiles. I base this mostly on how TOS referred to the Earth-Romulan War's "primitive atomic weapons" and TNG's portrayal of weak races which appear to be fairly backwards (lasers, merculite missiles, nukes, weak or no shields).
Klingons are not as pivotal to the story yet.
-- Earth-Romulan War.
Ep 1: Earth colonists come to a Romulan-owned planet and are destroyed by the xenophobic Romulans.
Ep 2: When Earth forces come to search for missing colonists, a battle ensues and the Romulans are damaged. They self-destruct rather than be captured. Intercepted radio transmissions lead the Earth forces towards the Romulan core worlds/colonies.
Ep 3: Enterprise is assigned as part of a task force to negotiate with the unknown enemy. Tensions run high.
Ep 4: The task force reaches another Romulan colony and a larger romulan fleet is there and an attempt at translating/negotiating begins. Tensions are high and conveniently, a weapons officer on one of the Earth ships lost his family from Ep1, and opens fire, sparking a running battle where most of the Earth ships are destroyed and the remaining must retreat.
And so the war can rage back and forth with sneak attacks, recon missions, rescue/evacuation episodes, socio-political observations, etc. Many interesting stories can be done without Earth and allies having to see a Romulan face or body. Episodes could be devoted to showing the Romulan side of things also. This can go for a whole season or two until they come to fight to a bloody stand-still and negotiate the Romulan Neutral Zone and end up establishing a fairly powerful enemy. The advantage here is that us the audience knows more about the two warring sides and thats no different than writing great stories about historical adversaries such as battles like WW2 US destroyers versus German U-boats or any other scenario where enemy soldiers would not be able to be retrieved after the fighting was over.
-- Founding of the Federation. Well, actually the problem with this lies in that Earth should be not too far behind and not too far forward in tech and currently they are moving along way too fast. The Klingons (and seemingly everyone else) already have photon torps and apparently so does Earth too. But, a major war (with the Romulans) would definitely spur the development of new technologies which altho might not make it to the front lines in time, would play a part in the emerging dominance of Earth and its allies. But, because Enterprise is too much out of continuity in my opinion, this would be an awkward arc to go on.
--How big space is. This is more like how TSN interpreted it. Basically going from point A to point B is a mini-arc in the larger story arc that either supports the larger arc or is an independent arc. Afterall, ships are slower in Enterprise than they would be in the 23rd and 24th centuries.
Example: If the large arc is "Founding the Feds", have the 4 or 5 episode mini-arc be "Make diplomatic contact with the Andorians by traveling to their homeworld."
You can have supporting or independent adventures in between the getting started and before they arrive episodes and remind viewers during those episodes or recap the previous episodes to catch up viewers that Enterprise is heading to Andor and why.
When they get there, we could have a couple of episodes where they interact with the Andorians and along the way, something happens where Enterprise's timely help boost good will with the Andorians.
Springboard another story arc where the Vulcans accuse the Andorians of some activity and have Enterprise by chance have sensor logs of that exonerating the Andorians and puts the Enterprise on a hunt for the actual evidence and/or perpetrators to try and smooth over relations between the Vulcans and Andorians.(with Earth's blessing after the fact, since we would have subspace radio delay between Earth and Enterprise in the weeks if not months delay. Lets give Archer some real command responsibilities.)
--------------------------------------
I guess what I'm trying to get at is that the producers of Enterprise has the opportunity to make really interesting and cohesive character or history driven stories without having to resort to breaking continuity.
Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :
They'll save the Earth-Romulan War for the first NX Movie.
Posted by Darkwing (Member # 834) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Romulan War: There are several potential problems with this. The fact that everyone knows what is going to happen is perhaps a minor one. Not showing a Romulan throughout the entire war is going to be much harder. And the Shadows aren't really a far comparison. One the one hand, a bunch of humanoid aliens with pointy ears, and the other...an ancient race from when the galaxy was formed.
It could be good. And there's still plenty of time for them to do it, but it's not a sure thing, by any means.
Founding of the Federation: Enterprise turns up somewhere. They say "join us!" Aliens say "no!" Enterprise says "please!" Aliens say "okay!" Repeat 150 times. Fun!
Or, if you want to increase the fun, we could have 3 seasons of the Vulcans arguing with the Andorians about the wording of the 5th paragraph of the Federation consitution. Even more fun!
Long distances: Er, isn't this pretty much what happens anyway, and what has happened with every Star Trek show? Some adventures happen on planets, some in space. The ones in space we assume happen while they are on their way to a planet (or nebula, or blue glowy thing).
Or do you mean you want 4 episodes of "We'll be there in 4 weeks!", "We'll be there in 3 weeks!", "We'll be there in 2 weeks!", "We'll be there in a week!", "We're there. Oh, there's nothing here. Oh well, on to the next planet. We'll be there in 4 weeks!"
well, since ENT is an altered timeline, we don't know things will turn out the same after all - we might get to see Romulan faces after all, and the war could be lost in this reality. They also need not wait to attempt to found the federation, but we also don't know for sure it'll succeed, we don't know it'll have to use the same name, or be organised the same way. It could be closer to a powerless UN in space, assuming it gets formed at all. And the bit about adventures between destinations? Yes, a good idea in small doses - and they've done it already. For several episodes, they were enroute to Risa, and had things happen along the way, until they finally got there. Just a few lines of dialog added, and it was a nice touch, IMO. I just wouldn't want to see it very often, because it'd get old.
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
I would be remiss if I did not point this out.
Originally posted by TSN:
"I think (or hope) hat he ment "
Indeed.
YOU CAN NEVER AGAIN CORRECT ANYONE.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Sure I can. Typing mistakes are irrelevant.
Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :
quote: well, since ENT is an altered timeline,
They have never admitted that it is an Alternate Universe.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kosh:
quote: well, since ENT is an altered timeline,
They have never admitted that it is an Alternate Universe.
Well it doesn't matter, an alternate timeline already exists based solely on what has happened in the series thus far. True, no one has explicitly admitted to anything, but in the same juncture, they haven't denied anything either. Also, this altered timeline supercedes anything any of the other Treks may have committed because we already know the true history beforehand that Enterprise has altered. Every other instance was revealed after the fact so that it really doesn't turn its back on the known timeline the way Enterprise has. No one has to admit it to not see it happening.
Posted by Darkwing (Member # 834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kosh:
quote: well, since ENT is an altered timeline,
They have never admitted that it is an Alternate Universe.
Questioned about how this episode derived from events in FIRST CONTACT one audience member could not resist asking how this episode could be reconciled with TNG�s episode �Q Who?,� which was supposedly Starfleet�s first encounter with the Borg. �We thought about that,� Braga responded. �And it�s complicated. The movie FIRST CONTACT changed everything because the moment the Borg went back in time they immediately altered history. So, the episode �Q Who?� that you are referring to really may not have happened that way if you know what I�m saying. The timeline was altered by FIRST CONTACT.�
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
"We thought about that..."
Translation: "we fucked up and leave it to the fans to sort out the mess" 8)
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
If ENT is an alternate reality (which I hope it is), it would seem that some form of technology was acquired from the Ent-E in FC (hence Akiraprise and early photons).
If this is the case, ENT tech is far more advanced than 22nd century technology was in the original timeline. Because of this, I would think that the Romulan War would either be won incredibly easily or not occur at all, because the Romulans would be scared off by the super-advanced Earth technology.
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
B&B might see that differently, but they still have an obligation to preserve the future. Every good time travel episode must restore the original state, maybe with only a curious side effect (Gabriel Bell). If they don't preserve the timeline, everything we know about the 23rd and 24th century may be and will be questioned. It is annoying already now when fans are running around and telling me that I am all wrong about this and that because in last week's Enterprise episode they changed history again. At some point the whole TNG/DS9/VOY timeline may degrade to something like the idiotic mirror universe in DS9.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I can actually picture the Trekweb report on an upcoming episode, which comes complete with an interview with Brannon Braga, in which he raves that this episode (oh, let's call it "Tipping the Velvet") will explain why all the women turn into lesbians. . . 8)
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
I am beginning to watch modern Trek with a new outlook, especially when it comes to Enterprise. Each series is an independent entity, derived from the original Trek, but not totally dependent upon it.
Each series has it's own background, characters, situations that may or may not be dependent upon the previous or succeeding series.
This is how I view the Warner Bros. animated DC universe-- each series is stands on its own and does not totally refelct any of the animateds that came before or after it. I think it works for modern Trek and Enterprise, as well.
I have many problems with Enterprise, but think that it has great potential-- it is only being hindered by bad creative choices and mishandling by it's producers. It needs to stay true to the prequel concept or find its own path. Hopefully, TPTB will choose the latter and allow the series to create its own sense of identity, theme and intent.
M.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Unfortunately all three of the sequel series, TNG, DS9 and VOY were directly connected with each other... and TNG wasn't just based off of TOS but said to further it as if being TOS.
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
E-E giving 21st century humans technology that allows for the so called "Akiraprise" and photon'ic' torpedoes? Throughout the movie, E-E never could give them that technology, busy fighting the Borg.
The so called "Akiraprise" design is not hard to explain in Trek terms, but in reality it's hard to come up with an excuse that it just happens to look like the Akira class.
Perhaps this is how the 22nd century looks like and perhaps Scott doesn't know shit about the 22nd century.
Deciding how the 22nd century looks by a single man's line (who for all we know sucks at history, maybe mistaking 22nd century for 21st century) and a single class based off of a sketch from the 60's and a primitive model in Sisko's office.
Just a thought.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Hmmm...regarding next seasons spanking *new* bad guys:
quote: We learn in this episode that there are actually several sentient species of Xindi, all collaborating in the campaign against humanity, including "Xindi-Reptilians," "Xindi-Sloths" and the simpler "Xindi-Humanoids." We'll also be seeing "Xindi-Insectoids" and "Xindi-Aquatics," but they'll be computer generated by Dan Curry's and Ronald B. Moore's visual effects team.�
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:The so called "Akiraprise" design is not hard to explain in Trek terms, but in reality it's hard to come up with an excuse that it just happens to look like the Akira class.
But of course you point out that the Excelsior-Class has the same design components of the Constitution-Class, and you get a "no, that's not the same thing" arguement. Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
same components mean nothing compared to same design...
Look at the Larson or Loknar [can't remember exactly which one] from FASA. It shares component similarities to the Akira, but not design similarities.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
And then we imagine a crazy world where we saw the NX-01 first, and THEN the Akira, and everyone said "Ooh, look, it's a nice reference to a 22nd century starship", and then got on with their lives without getting all worked up.
And, AGAIN, don't we have to point out that "Q Who" was actually contradicted in that sense by, well the episode that happened, well, half a year before it aired?
And, AGAIN AGAIN, do we have to mention that considering the number of time travel episodes, the universe as we know it could have changed 10s, or maybe even 100s of times between "The Man Trap" and "Endgame"? When Picard knew about the Romulans destroying the Ent-C in "Redemption II", no-one said "But he said that the Romulans hadn't done anything for 60 years in 'The Neutral Zone', therefore we are in an alternative timeline and season 3 and a half onwards of TNG IS NOT CANON!!!!!"?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
...and it's as simple as that... Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Amazing how quickly people revert to type.
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
well, before it was 'damnation.. NX-01 looks like Akira!!!1!!' nowadays it's like 'damnation.. theyre makin NX-01 more like the Akira!!1!!!'
just wait til they unveil the one-man fighercraft...
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
quote:But of course you point out that the Excelsior-Class has the same design components of the Constitution-Class, and you get a "no, that's not the same thing" arguement.
Oh no, not again! Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
Well, no. Technically, Excelsior class doesn't have the same design components of the Constitution-Class.
Miranda class, on the other hands, does have the same design components as Constitution class, merely in another configuration.
But NX... It's basically... you could say its mobile 'Starfleet through centuries' exhibition (couple of common design elements (aztec pattern of armor, distinct rim style, etc. ((as pointed out on Bernds page))) in inverted Akira configuration.
And it's not only merely something reminding us of Akira. Many elements were directly copied from Akira... It's not a design homage. It's a ripoff.
But, I'm basically repeating Bernds arguments
So, back to the topic... I think Regarding alternate timelines, I don't think it's correct to call certain portion of given series 'non-canon' only because its alternate timeline. Understand, there's no coming back to the old timeline and therefore we are stuck with what we are given. So it slightly changed - so what? Let's make note of known changes and lets keep going
And personally I'm happy that they finally declared Enterprise as alternate universe. Of course, I knew that from the very beginning Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
*yawn*
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
rough night?
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
just a little boredom with every thread about Enterprise degrading into 'WTF teh Akira!?!?!?' .. i mean, i was a little miffed at first, but i got over it. Its been 2 years.
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
No, I don't think it's an alternate timeline. All it takes is two halves of a brain to figure out how to fit it in normal Trek.
The NX class is in fact the design inspiration for the Akira class.
The Daedalus class is the design inspiration for the Olympic class.
The Constitution class is the design inspiration for the Excelsior class.
The Miranda class is design inspiration for the Centuar and Nebula class.
Gee, I guess we should call the Excelsior class a ripoff of the E-nil right? We could have all those prototype designs they had, but no they had to choose the design that is clearly a E-nil ripoff. I think from Star Trek III onwards that that was clearly a alternate reality. Then it gets worse with the Ambassador and Galaxy classes. I guess TNG is a alternate reality as well.
Again I say, we know little to nothing on the 22nd century but based on non-canon speculation, a few references in the episodes and books (which can be considered semi-canon, afterall who would think the first Warp 1 ship would look like missile, since we all clearly know it looks exactly like what the first edition Chronology has).
Then again, let's hope that B&B read Starfleet Museum and copies it. Make everyone happy, then it gets cancelled after everyone finds extremely boring to watch a show about the history of Starfleet, through ships. No offense Maseo, but your site is not show material like alot people think it is. Nobody wants to watch a histroy lesson that's not even real history.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
quote:Originally posted by Matrix: No, I don't think it's an alternate timeline. All it takes is two halves of a brain to figure out how to fit it in normal Trek.
It is alternate timeline, as stated by Brannon Braga. What, you don't believe him?
So OK, Consitution is design inspiration for Excelsior, Deadalus for Olympic, Miranda for Nebula, and so on... but NX is not simply a design inspiration for Akira. It's a design ripoff. It's like building 20th century cruiser which looks like American civil-war era steamship.
Gee, I guess we should call the Excelsior class a ripoff of the E-nil right?
Tell me, does Excelsior looks like inverted Constitution?
I think from Star Trek III onwards that that was clearly a alternate reality. Then it gets worse with the Ambassador and Galaxy classes. I guess TNG is a alternate reality as well.
So, it's not a alternate timeline, it's a alternate reality!
Again I say, we know little to nothing on the 22nd century
We've only seen 34 hours from their 2-year journey. Not too much
Then again, let's hope that B&B read Starfleet Museum and copies it. With this I agree completly. To tell honestly, I may not like Masao's vision of Romulan war era ships (too big, too round ), but I cannot not to appreciate other designs, together with very detailed and believable histories of starhips.
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
Like I said, in reality the NX class is a ripoff. No diputing that. But in Trek, the NX class can be explained very easily if you are willing to accept that Starfleet does look like previous classes. Example is of course the Deadalus and the Olympic classes. Or the Miranda and the centuar classes. Maybe their's a design featrue very useful in the NX class that was later phased out in favor of more conventional designs, who knows?
Prior to Enterprise, we know little to nothing about the 22nd century, yet many like to believe in a few lines than a whole series to represent the 22nd century. Gee, all 22nd century ships should have a sphere and cylinder hulls.
Maseo's view of the 22nd century is an interesting view, but only when we're talking about the stuff that we love. However there's no back story to all of it, well at least not to make a 7 year series, that has a strong possibility of going to the big screen.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Matrix: Then again, let's hope that B&B read Starfleet Museum and copies it. Make everyone happy, then it gets cancelled after everyone finds extremely boring to watch a show about the history of Starfleet, through ships. No offense Maseo, but your site is not show material like alot people think it is. Nobody wants to watch a histroy lesson that's not even real history.
Oh good grief! Don't tell me you mean that literally! When people suggest that Trek's canon history be based on that of the Starfleet Museum, that doesn't mean we're literally going to follow everything Masao wrote to the letter!
If you took half a second to think things through, you'd realize that there's a LOT out there that could be developed in various ways that Masao's articles have never even touched on yet. Questions about exploration, about managing Earth's existing colonies, and about relations between Earth, Vulcan, and Andor... Hell, this is stuff that even ENT has worked on, too. Because it's COMMON based on the previous series! Posted by blssdwlf (Member # 1024) on :
quote:Originally posted by Matrix: [QB] Like I said, in reality the NX class is a ripoff. No diputing that. But in Trek, the NX class can be explained very easily if you are willing to accept that Starfleet does look like previous classes.
Yes, thats actually very reasonable. Sure, a 24th century designer might pay homage by making an external feature identical to a past feature. Its apparently done all the time between the different sizes of Klingon Birds of Prey.
quote: Prior to Enterprise, we know little to nothing about the 22nd century, yet many like to believe in a few lines than a whole series to represent the 22nd century. Gee, all 22nd century ships should have a sphere and cylinder hulls.
Not necessarily. Enterprise the series has changed up alot of what we know how things are in the future as well as this "suppose to be" past. Phasers and photon torpedoes don't show up in Federation inventory until TOS. Heck, nuclear weapons were the norm and lasers still figured prominently prior to the 2nd or 3rd episode of TOS. Cloaks, holographic tech isn't common either. And thats just for tech
Enterprise might resemble the past Star Trek series in name, but not in much else, IMHO. Its already in the alternate history category for me now
**** An idea for the series. They could do it like the Black Adder. Each season is where they do something in one generation. Hire new actors for the next season and totally mess with the reprecussions of the actions of the previous generation. Nah. Nevermind. Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
"Lasers" appeared in "The Cage," and the pistol props were reused in "Where No Man Has Gone Before," but by the second pilot they had already introduced a phaser rifle, and "lasers" were never seen again. And I don't believe they were refered to as lasers in the second pilot, anyway.
(Well, OK, the prop was reused as a hand weapon that Federation citizens might reasonably have in their posession.)
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Reminds me, I have loads on this subject to add to the site. . . This wekend I hope.
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
I will stick with my original idea I got after watching a few episodes of the shite they call Enterprise, which is not to watch any of it again.
I just can't be bothered. I don't consider it Trek and consequently I don't give a f**k about what part of Trek history might be affected by the events in Enterprise.
For me, TOS, TNG, DS9 and the movies is what I consider Star Trek. Hell, even Voyager had it's moments. But Enterprise, let it rot in hell!
Sorry about my harshness. Anyone who enjoys Enterprise - ignore my remarks. Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
That's your opinion. What I've said is my opinion. I am not forcing anyone to like the series, I'm just fed up with people bashing the series because they will not accept the series because Enterprise looks like the Akira and believe Starfleet would never design a ship like that.
Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :
quote:Originally posted by Matrix: That's your opinion. What I've said is my opinion. I am not forcing anyone to like the series, I'm just fed up with people bashing the series because they will not accept the series because Enterprise looks like the Akira and believe Starfleet would never design a ship like that.
I think that most of Enterprise's detractors have a few more issues with the series than just the NX class. The ship represents the whole chicken-shit approach taken by the creative staff in regards to the 22nd century setting. Everything HAS to closely resemble the most recent trek so that the brainless viewers will recognize it.
For me, even if Enterprise exactly fit my minds-eye view of the 22nd century, it would still not be more than the mediocre series it is now. Window dressing in nice�it can add a whole lot to a series, but it cannot make up for bad writing.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
Well said.
(And let me tell you, NX design is the least of my problems with Enterprise. )
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
I'm sure that bost Enterprise-bashing fans are fed up with the series than the NX class design. But most of the time, it seems that's their only excuse for not watching the series.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Trust me, it isn't. . .
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Agreed. I wouldn't know an Akira from a Steamrunner, but I still don't watch Enterprise. I've been watching GOOD sci-fi for the past year, and I'm spoiled now.
Posted by Triton (Member # 1043) on :
Well let's hope that Season 3 of Enterprisewill turn things around and have an interesting story arc and introduce good stories.
Remember that both TNG and DS9 did not get really good until their third season, so I have a little hope that Enterprise will become a good television program. (Yes, I realize that Voyager still travelled its same mediocre path for all seven seasons.)
I am convinced that if Enterprise fails in its efforts it will be the straw that breaks the franchise's back and I think that it be the last live-action Star Trek we will see. (That includes the films as well.)
But that's not to say that we as fans must watch the show just to save live-action Star Trek. If the third season is just as bad as the first two, to heck with it and let Paramount pull the plug. There is plenty of high-quality Trek content out there.
I don't think that the failure of Enterprise is the result of the bashings of diehard Trek fans. Sorry, there aren't enough of us around to keep a series afloat even if we all watched the show and sang its praises to all who would listen. General television audiences think that the show isn't very good and the poor Nielsen ratings the show has received prove this point. Most of the general television audience couldn't care less what era the NX-01 is from or if it looks like the Akira-class.
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
Trek has no time for serialized plots.
(DS9 being Paramounts' bastard stepchild, and all)
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega: Agreed. I wouldn't know an Akira from a Steamrunner, but I still don't watch Enterprise. I've been watching GOOD sci-fi for the past year, and I'm spoiled now.
I've heard your ideas of "GOOD music", and remain unconvinced.
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