quote:

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One of the many criticisms which has been thrown Braga's way is the fact that many fans feel that Braga plays too fast and loose with Star Trek's continuity. Braga has some rather strong feelings about this criticism and is not shy about expressing them.

"I totally and completely disagree. It's the dumbest comment in the world and I am so tired of hearing it. What have we done? Give me one good example. There are some picayune things that we have chosen to do. We have not broken the rules, but we have bent rules. But there's nothing that important. It's not like we've stated that Kirk never existed. What have we done?

"In fact, we're very slavish to the continuity. I've got people on staff who do nothing but check the continuity. We're constantly aware of it and we use it. We're very aware of it. In fact, I enjoy figuring out the continuity. One of the reasons that I never really did anything with the Romulans, besides the fact that people didn't really seem to be very interested in them in Nemesis, it that we couldn't do anything with the Romulans. It had been stated that no one had seen them before. So what were we going to do? Have guys in helmets all the time? We are extremely aware. If the readers can give me examples of significant breaches in the continuity, please do."

Braga also addressed the fans questions on whether or not Enterprise is a prequel to Kirks era of Star Trek or if it is in fact set in an altogether different universe.

"Yes, it is definitely a prequel. It's not an alternate timeline, of course not. The only criticism about the continuity that has any merit at all - although I think in the end it is wrong - is that we're changing the Vulcans. That's just absolutely not true. If you look at the way the Vulcans behave [on Enterprise], they're exactly the way they've behaved on Star Trek. It's just a different century, when their culture was perhaps a little less progressive in their embracing of humanity. Cultures change. You know what I'm saying?

"Also, we've barely seen any Vulcans. If you tally up the episodes of Star Trek, from all the series that had Vulcans, we've only spent some time with Spock and Tuvok. But we know very little about Vulcan culture. We know a little here and there. So we wanted to explore it. We wanted to explore the paradoxes of it and show how interesting it is. Some people are like, 'That's not Star Trek! That's not the Vulcans!' Well, who's to say what it is?

"In terms of the alternate timeline, I don't understand why people think that. I'm not exactly sure. What's changed? What's so different that they think this must be an alternate history? In terms of the Temporal Cold War stuff, I don't really think anything has happened to change history. With the Borg, some people said, 'Oh my God, Archer was not the first person to encounter the Borg. Picard was. You've changed the timeline.' My answer to that was, 'Well, that got changed in the movie First 'Contact'."

After having addressed countless criticisms made by fans, Braga moved on to the more pressing matter of talking some more about Season Three of Enterprise.

"One of the things you're going to see is some pretty radical structural stuff. We're doing stuff that we've never done.

"Let's set aside the obvious ones. We're beginning the season with a mission, with a continuing arc. The fans that have been screaming for more continuity are going to be in spasms of ecstasy over this, because this is a continuing storyline. There will still be standalone elements, stories and episodes, but for the most part we're hunting for this species now and trying to save Earth.

"I feel creatively stimulated by what we're doing. It feels very different. Just to give you a hint, the first episode of next season doesn't even open on Enterprise. It opens with the Xindi, in a very strange, mysterious place, with insectoid people.

"We're really trying to do this show in a way that's very different. Some people who've read the scripts so far have said, 'My God, this is fantastic. Thank you for doing this.' So the response has been very positive so far. But what will people think? What will the fans think? Will it be too different? Will they be interested in this storyline? If they're interested in strange aliens, if they're interested in war - edged jeopardy, if they're interested in pushing our characters further, if they're interested in something which has more of a sense of a direction and a continuing focus, then they are going to love this. If they like weird Sci-Fi and special effects they're going to love this.

"But believe it or not, there is a faction of the audience that love Enterprise just the way it is. I read a pair of fascinating, really thoughtful little essays about Enterprise in one of the sci fi magazines, one person hating Enterprise and the other loving the show. They both had really good points. So, as I said, we'll see how people respond."

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 

"With the Borg, some people said, 'Oh my God, Archer was not the first person to encounter the Borg. Picard [Patrick Stewart] was. You've changed the timeline.' My answer to that was, 'Well, that got changed in the movie First 'Contact'."

Well, that's hardly an excuse, is it? He's still the one responsible for the change.
 

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Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
 
So, I guess that Ferengi episode wasn't a continuity violation after all. I'm quite relieved!!!! If you think otherwise, well, then you're just STUPID!!!!! Thanks, Brannon, for clearing that up!
 

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
Can I comment?

I have to say I agree with Braga (SHOCK HORROR!) in part. The Vulcans - they have been handled wonderfully I believe - although I think the whole idea of Vulcan mysticism being changed within 100 years is a bit... unlikely.

Braga though is an idiot - we never saw any of Vulcan culture through Tuvok - because the idiot didn't have STORIES for Tuvok - or if they started to do something with him - they stopped or fucked it up - i.e. Gravity.

Berman was the one who said they weren't going to have ANTHING to do with the Voyager character's "Alpha Quadrant" lives from the word go, from season 1 and the series suffered ever since. It was only the Doctor and Seven who were really fabulous characters - as we didn't need any backstory to build on for them as they were basically blank slates that started when the series started/when they were introduced.

I don't think Enterprise should have been re-tooled for season III - I've been watching season 2 at the moment (here in Australia) and the episodes have been really quite good. I loved the Andorian/Vulcan episode and the Tholian episode - good stuff.

And back to continuity again - B&B and a LOT of Trek fans - just DON'T get what 'continuity' means.

There is a difference between 'continuity' - which is what TNG and DS9 seasons 1-5 had and 'arcs' which is basically what DS9 season 6 and 7 and Babylon 5 had.

Stargate SG-1 pulls off "continuity" superbly in a true TNG style. They didn't have to garishly refer to previous events every second.

Enterprise is WAY better when it comes to continuity than Voyager was - which was just disgusting. Voyager not only re-wrote a lot of Trek history but there wasn't even internal Voyager continuity! That was really slack. Then by season 6 and 7 they were desperately trying to link back to the rest of Trek by overplaying 'links' and dropping Trek references in the middle of your head.

Very messy stuff - and Braga is partially responsible for it. Berman would be the main culprit.

So although I cut Braga a bit of slack - his work on Voyager doesn't give him much.

I don't like this whole retooling idea - which is SO the Viacom suits at work.

Enterprise atm (season 2) is working fine - they should have just left it as it is. Enterprise season 2 does NOT stink like season 2 of Voyager.

Oh and one thing I'm worried about - on Voyager - as I mentioned - there is not internal consistancy. From season to season things changed as if they were starting a new show each year. This re-tooling of Enterprise sounds like the same thing as what they did in Voyager - which is NOT A GOOD THING.

They can't loose site of the premise of the series. It's pretty easy for Enteprise - it was infact even easier for Voyager... "get home" - but by episode 2 they had ballsed it up.

DS9 was the most difficult of premises - they did retool in season 3 and 4 - but for the better - and DS9 went from strength to strength once Ron Moore and Ira Behr were left alone.

*end ramblings*
 

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
I don't mind the retooling in the sense of "Something huge has happened that has effected many of our characters and they have to go take care of it... that's what this season will be about." That's cool... I dig that. It's one chapter in a big, seven chapter story. And of course characters and personalities and motives will change as a result... the story's evolving.

So, retooling isn't necessarily bad... it's all about how they handle it and whether or not they're planning the thing out.

Voyager always always felt very pieced together. Even the overall Emissary story arc in DS9 had to stretch to make the connection all the way back to season 1.

I'm looking forward to the third season. I'll give it a chance. But I swear... he needs to stop saying "We're doing things we've never done before." Didn't they say that about the series in general before it started?
 

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
A very funny thing I saw tonight on TV. There is a satire/comedy show on here called CNNNN - bascially a news/current affairs piss-take and they even have the ticker-tape news going along the bottom the whole show with silly things like:

"14 horses die in water-polo tragedy"

one of the news 'briefs' on the ticker tape was "Star Trek: Enterprise boldy goes where every other Star Trek series has gone before".

I'm guessing the guys who do the show - there are a group of them - must have a little nerd in them

Andrew
 

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Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
 
"Enterprise is WAY better when it comes to continuity than Voyager was..."

My head has just exploded.
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
Okay, while we're here, can people please list their 5 biggest continuity problems with Enterprise? The ones that annoy them the most? I'm just curious.
 

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Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
 
yknow, i LIKED season 2 of ENT.. i've actually been watching pretty faithfully, and being entertained.. i'm mad because they're kind of pulling the rug out of all the set up theyve done over the past 2 years with the Vulcans, Andorians and Klingons.. i watched all the episodes leading up to 'The Expanse' and was duy impressed.. i must even say that, even though the continuity SOUNDED really sore, 'Regeneration' came out fine in my opinion.. (but then i said the same of 'Acquisition' whilst everyone else bithed).

Now, the show that i was growing to like is gone. Enterprise isnt about Vulcans and Andorians and Klingons and exploring.. its a vengeful space marine jumpship. i personally feel a little betrayed by all the cheesy histrionics and the 'attack on america'.. oops i mean 'attack on earth' story.. 'the expanse' was hokey and left me with a bad taste in my mouth, even while it delivered a lot of fanboy-payoff moments since it was the last episode of the show we knew.

blah.

for the record, continuity bothers for me are
1> Vulcan psionics -- by making mindmelds a crime, they are really playing fast and loose with the history of Vulcan. Brannon's right, they havent directly broken any rules, but i feel thematically something has gone wrong. Vulcans are very psionic creatures, repressing their powers seems problematic as best

2> the first contact with the Romulans was pointless and boring. introducing mankind's longest standmng enemy couldve had a little more relevance than a one shot ep like that. and NOBODY should have cloaking in ENT.. thats the biggest crime, IMO.. theres just no explanation for that
 

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
I'm not so put off by Enterprise's lack of continuity with the rest of the series as I am with the lack of trying to do something new with the show. Yes... there have been a couple of good arcs going on, and I hope they continue as we get closer to the founding of the Federation.

My hope is that, while Enterprise does its thing in the Expanse, Starfleet will be doing other things and eventually, we'll get caught up on some of the major events that have been warming up in local space while they were gone.

We'd also get a darn good tie-in to the Temporal Cold War and it had better be a major part of the conclusion to the series.

My biggest beef with Regeneration was that the crew of Enterprise was able to deal with the Borg nano probes more effectively that Picard's crew. They also changed the way and the speed with which the Borg nanoprobes work for the sake of making the story work. We have, however been left with the crew member who is indellibly tied to the Borg, ala Picard and Chakotay.

I hope we never see the Borg on Enterprise again.
 

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Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :
 

quote:

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Some issues I have just off the top of my head are the communications arrays and other bits of technology. TOS episodes like "The Armagedon Game" and "A Piece of the Action" explicitely state that starships of 100 years ago were limited to speed of light radio waves for communication and Balance of Terror explicity lists the primitive capabilities of the old Earth ships as being one reason that the Romulans were never seen but in Enterprise we have full FTL subspace radio with instant communication between Enterprise and its home base. This is a blatant contridiction.
There are other things like them having "phase pistols" rather than lasers like they had in Pike's time that rub me the wrong way but can be glossed over due to TNG's comments about the phaser being an invention of the last 200 years.
I did not like the Ferengi episode either in concept of execution. Here is a species that was distant and mysterious, with the Federation knowing little about them in 2364 and they suddenly appear within 50 light-years of Earth( distance quoted to Risa in Enterprise episode) in 2156 yet they are barely even known two hundred years later. If the Ferengi could reach this area they would have swarmed it and become part of the culture, not just sat on the sidelines.

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quote:

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While there will always be nit-picking fans, if Enterprise told compelling stories filled with fascinating characters, there'd be a lot fewer people letting their minds wander to continuity glitches.

It's easier to quantify one's displeasure by citing specific variances from what came before, but the main reason for fan discontent and plummeting ratings, imo, is that the show, as drama, just isn't very good.

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quote:

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One of the reasons that I never really did anything with the Romulans, besides the fact that people didn't really seem to be very interested in them in Nemesis, it that we couldn't do anything with the Romulans.

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quote:

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Personally I cannot see how they will evolve into being the Vulcans we see in TOS.

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You mean the ones who live on an apparently primitive planet and can't get through a wedding without trying to hack each others' limbs off?

Not that I really disagree with the thrust of this argument, but TOS presented us with Spock, a unique case, his father, and then whatever it was that was going on in "Amok Time," and from those three samples I don't think you can derive anything like a master guide to How Vulcans Have Always Been.
 

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Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
I was speaking mostly on their wide spread use of telepathy, so much so that Spock, as a half-Vulcan is capable of "feeling" the dead of the minds of 400 Vulcans over a distance of lightyears, or mind melding with space probes and rock monsters, where only 100 years earlier mind melds were the Vulcan equivelant of butt sex, is quite a vast expanse to cross is such little time. If the Vulcans in the Enterprise era are repressing that much potential telepathic-melding horsepower, and their brains have the physical equivelant to 'blue balls' or something, then I can understand why they are such pricks; otherwise, I think the way they act now contrasts a lot from what we got from TOS, Spock and the movies.

There is however, one 'modern' Trek example of Vulcan that comes to mind fitting the Enterprise-era Vulcan model, as far as being antagonistic, that being Captain Solok (??, the baseball Vulcan) or Ch'pok (the sniper Vulcan). But aside from him, there haven't really been may other asshole Vulcans; unless they were intentionally meant to be that, they seem to share this whole other personae altogether, such as Spock, Tuvok, Sarek and Saavik.
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
Except that maybe, just maybe, all Vulcans don't have the same personality?

And if I recall, in "Dagger of the Mind", the first time Spock does a mindmeld he mentions that it's a deeply personal thing that Vulcans hate doing because it's icky and horrible.

Of course, he then starts doing it on a bi-weekly basis, but there you go.
 

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Posted by Alshrim (Member # 258) on :
 
I'd like to submit this:

100 years ago - where were we as a human race. What has changed in our society in the last 100 years?

100 years ago - we didn't even dream of going to the moon. And we did in less than 70 years.

70 years ago - we barely embraced the idea of travelling without a horse to draw our carriages. Now we can fly, drive, and jump out of planes.

The very thought of same-sex couples was blasphemous. Now gay and lesbian couples can get married (at least in Canada they can). I throw that in because I see the Ent: Vulcan Psionics thing akin to this kind of prejudice.

The idea of one believing in mystics and witch-craft was punishable by burning; now it's a religion !

in 100 years.. we have changed so much...

Who's to say that the vulcan's (a much more evolved and more intelligent race) can't change their idealisms about psionics being dark-magics - to something that is embraced and accepted.

Frankly - i think in 40 years.. their society and idealism can change DRAMATICALLY!

Just a thought to debate..
 

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
While I firmly agree with the idea that cultures can and do change so much within the space of a century that they wouldn't recognize themselves, I must point out that one would have more than a little trouble finding a witch burning in 1903. 1903!
 

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Posted by Alshrim (Member # 258) on :
 
Touch� ..

But you see my point, tho' right..

Let's take the witch burnings .. and how much time past before those were considered barbaric...

That's all i was trying to get across..
 

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Posted by Alshrim (Member # 258) on :
 
Or not... Below is the story of a woman who was arrested and tried in England for witchcraft.. in 1944!!!

Considering the fact that the last witch-burnings or hangings were in the 1700's - maybe some things take a little longer huh??

http://members.tripod.com/~helenduncan/Duncan.htm

quote:

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anxious establishment debated the best charge to lay against this dangerous war criminal Helen Duncan . One her first appearance before the Portsmouth magistrates she had been charged under the catchall act of Vagrancy. This was later amended to one of Conspiracy which, in wartime Britain , carried the ultimate sentence of death by hanging. But by the time the case had been referred to England's central criminal court - know as the Old Bailey - the charge had been changed yet again . This time to one of witchcraft and an old Act of 1735 had been dredged out of the dusty law libraries .

Under this ancient rune Helen Duncan and her innocent sitters wer accused of pretending 'to exercise or use human conjuration that through the agency of Helen Duncan spirits of deceased dead persons should appear to be present'.

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
I didn't say it was impossible. I mean, a very popular campaign tactic in, I believe, Nigeria today is to claim that your opponent is sacrificing children to give himself magical powers of electability. And forget witch burning; the twentieth century invented its own forms of very impressive institutional evil. I'm just saying that witches are kind of an odd and archaic example.
 

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Posted by Alshrim (Member # 258) on :
 
Ya.. I agree with ya Not the best example.. hehe.
 

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Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
a very popular campaign tactic in, I believe, Nigeria today is to claim that your opponent is sacrificing children to give himself magical powers of electability

This is different from the US?
 

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Har har.
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
SMASH MOUTH IS BETTER THAN QUEEN!!!
 

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Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
ah, but 100 years, in terms of Vulcans, is not that long, considering their life-span, to accept, develop and hone telepathic abilities...
 

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Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
Well, again, how many different Vulcans did we see doing telepathic stuff within 100 years of Enterprise? Spock, who was very young and odd in other ways; once with Sarek, who only did it to determine whether Kirk carried Spock's katra; and the group of Vulcans who transfered said katra back to it's usual housing, and who were very surprised at Sarek's request that they do so. After that, you wait until TNG, where the first time I recall seeing a mind meld was Sarek again, then Spock again. Then nothing until Tuvok, who was born over a hundred years after Enterprise, and was also a bit unconventional in his youth.

Unfortunately, this isn't Babylon 5. We really DON'T know that much about all the races.
 

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Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
Spock was half-Human, if that is your definition of "odd". So regardless of that, for being half human he seems to have extraordinary telepathic abilities, again melding with Nomad, the Horta, sensing V'Ger...and of course sensing a starship die:

quote:

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SPOCK: Doctor, even I, a half-Vulcan,
could hear the death scream of 400 Vulcan minds
crying out over the distance between us.
MCCOY: Not even a Vulcan could feel a starship die.
SPOCK: Call it a deep understanding of the way things happen to Vulcans...

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quote:

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SPOCK (in ships log): I must now use an ancient Vulcan technique to probe into Van Gelder's tortured mind.
....
SPOCK (RE: a mind meld): It's a hidden, personal thing to the Vulcan people, part of our private lives.

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quote:

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PRIESTESS
Sarek... Child of Skon... Child of
Solkar. The body of your son
breathes still. What is your
wish?

SAREK
I ask for Fal-Tor-Pan, the
refusion.

PRIESTESS
What you seek has not been done
since ages past -- and then, only
in legend. Your request is not
logical.

SAREK
Forgive me, T'Lar. My logic
falters where my son is
concerned.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Alshrim:
How did they deal with Pon-Farr?? The entire ritual of the 'bonding' of mates (the fingers touching and the calming of the 'blood') was entirely a telepathic experience, as demonstrated in SFS when Saavik and a young Spock bonded in the caves of Genesis!

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Well, Vulcans seem at the very least to be embarrassed by Pon Farr, and at the most ashamed of it. Part of that shame could be the fact that they are forced to do a smelly dirty mind meld in it.

After all, Victorians were ashamed of sex, but they were still bonking like crazy.
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
Also, it may only be wanting to meld that's wrong. It's like Catholics' view of sex. It's a wonderful thing, as long as you make babies and you don't like it.
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
I hate to do this, but that's not really the Catholic view. You are allowed to enjoy sex, as long as you do it with your partner. Who you are married to. And as long as they are of the opposite sex. And as long as you don't use precautions.
 

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Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
 
Shame about those dyslexic priests that read 'of the opposite sex' as 'young boys'. But let's not go into that.
 

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Posted by Alshrim (Member # 258) on :
 
*ducks and runs*
 

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
I think this is one of the larger slip ups in continuity. The worst part is... it probably wouldn't have been that hard to make it work with what's already been established and still bring up the issue.
 

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Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
...especially when most of it was all established in the TOS era long before the spin offs came and starting mucking with things. If Enterprise is supposed to be a prequal, it should focus what is supposed to immediately follow it...
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
Ooh, priests and young boys. ORIGINAL COMEDY MATERIAL!!!

I still think it fits, personally. The mind meld thing, not the young boys. But I try and make things easy. On myself. Not on young boys.
 

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Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
 
Braga wants one good example? Fine.

First Contact with Klingons.

As you know, according to Picard, it was a disaster and it led to many centuries of hostilities. Yes, I know that it was meant as a throwaway line, without any actual thought how it fits into continuity, but then again, whole seasons of DS9 and VOY are like that and they're still canon

So, was FC in Enterprise a disaster? Hardly. Yeah, we had Klaang shot by farmer, but Vulcan High Command immetiadely smoothed things over and arranged for transporting "corpse" back to Kronos.
And Enterprise did even better, delivering Klaang alive.

I would hardly call this situation "a disaster". Hell, even producers thought that Klingons actually owe humans a favor after that (as mentioned by Archer).
(and keep in mind that any later actions that will probably indeed lead to the "centuries of hostilities" are compeletely different thing.)

So, there you have, mr Braga - your requested continuity violation.
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
(to be devil's advocate)

Except that, for all we know, that incident might have ended up being hused hushed, especially when the brand new Federation was trying to get it's Prime Directive off the ground.

"We need it. Remember how bad the FC with the Klingons went?"

"Well, it didn't go that badly, until a couple of years later."

"Yes it did."

"No it didn't."

"Did did did did did did did did did..."

"Fine, it did".

Also, propoganda during the 23rd century hostilities might have clouded judgement on the issue, and that has stuck as common knowledge in the 24th century (even if it's inaccurate).

One curious (and annoying) thing about Trek fans is that they seem to assume everything spoken on screen is 100% true, and that they are representing an unbiased POV.

Q. What started WWII?
A1. Germany invading Poland.
A2. Germany invading half a million other places and refusing to stop even though we've asked them really nicely.
A3. The treaty of Versailles.
A4. WWI.
A5. (If you're an American and turning up late) Pearl Habour.

Sure, the actual FC incident wasn't a disaster, but if it in turn led directly into hostilities (and directly into can easily have a space of a couple of years), then I don't see the problem.
 

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Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
 
You know, I think we all agree that with some effort everything can be rationalised...
But it's another thing whenever those rationalisations are logical or not
But my point is, if there are no continuity problems, then we wouldn't have to worry about making up elaborate explanations...
The classic example are ENT Romulans who already have cloaking device. As it was noted by other people, it was completely unnecessary for them to have cloaking device (except for BILC factor, that is) and make Minefield an exciting episode...

Anyway,

Except that, for all we know, that incident might have ended up being hused hushed,

We had Terrans, Vulcans, Klingons and Denobulans involved - I can't exactly imagine Vulcans or Klingons "hushing" that incident.

especially when the brand new Federation was trying to get it's Prime Directive off the ground.

Judging from the amount of "Boy, I wish we had some kind of Prime Directive!" episodes, there's plenty of other foul-ups for their PD campaign

Also, propoganda during the 23rd century hostilities might have clouded judgement on the issue, and that has stuck as common knowledge in the 24th century (even if it's inaccurate).

Except that we are talking about Picard here, who certainly would not be limited to common knowledge.

One curious (and annoying) thing about Trek fans is that they seem to assume everything spoken on screen is 100% true, and that they are representing an unbiased POV.

Well, in that case, if we can't trust Picard, then who can we trust?

Sure, the actual FC incident wasn't a disaster, but if it in turn led directly into hostilities (and directly into can easily have a space of a couple of years), then I don't see the problem.

But did it led directly into hostilities? No, it did not. It was Judgement event that led directly into hostilities (starting with Duras in Expanse)

(and Duras apparent demise is another inconsistency in itself... I mean, if Duras is dead, then he obviously can't have children anymore... unless he already has some )
 

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Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
 
Don't overlook the obvious. Earth stuck it's nose into Klingon matters, forcing them to accept help they didn't want. That implies that the klingons are weak and that we are superior to them. klingons being klingons... they would naturally be trying to one-up us for centuries and in general, try to make-up for our insult.
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
As much as I like Picard, he is not The Most Intelligent Man In The Universe Ever.

Duras could have easily have had children (as you point out). Or brothers.
 

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Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kazeite:
Braga wants one good example? Fine.

First Contact with Klingons.

//SNIP//

So, there you have, mr Braga - your requested continuity violation.

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quote:

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Originally posted by TheWoozle:
Don't overlook the obvious. Earth stuck it's nose into Klingon matters, forcing them to accept help they didn't want.

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quote:

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Originally posted by PsyLiam:
As much as I like Picard, he is not The Most Intelligent Man In The Universe Ever.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Futurama Guy:
I hate to say it, but I have said this...

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Well, "great minds think alike" or smth
 

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Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
Well in light of the 'give a penny, take a penny' concept...here is my two cents worth on the Klingons, some of which was again mentioned by Kaz...

My problem with continuity busting is that there are too many Klingons too soon. Their first contact wasn't as disasterous as stated in the ep. "First Contact" [TNG], nor did it have anything to do with Star Fleet changing its first contact policy (both canon facts until Enterprise got ahold of the topic). Disasterous usually means people die or ships explode, Archer got shot by a Suliban in the leg...wooo, disasterous!

Other than that, their first space encounter with Klingons was equally as lame...(SEE: "Unexpected")
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
You don't like Picard? Do you also prefer Smashmouth to Queen?
 

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Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
 
I don't remember when or where but it was either on TOS or TNG... I'm thinking it was the TNG episode where Riker goes undercover on that weird planet and loses most of his memory. Anyway Picard said something about how they study races before they make first contact with them because of some disaster--- is this the line about the Klingons?
 

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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
The episode was "First Contact", which had, what, eight writers? The line was written by Dennis Bailey, who did a re-write of the episode, and also co-wrote "Tin Man." The line is "disasterous first contact with the Klingons." It never specifies HOW first contact was disasterous, but apparently lots of people were thinking thousands of Klingons armed with swords hacking up humans or something.

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Disasterous usually means people die or ships explode,

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Originally posted by J:
I don't remember when or where but it was either on TOS or TNG... I'm thinking it was the TNG episode where Riker goes undercover on that weird planet and loses most of his memory. Anyway Picard said something about how they study races before they make first contact with them because of some disaster--- is this the line about the Klingons?

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I had just said it two posts prior:

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Their first contact wasn't as disasterous as stated in the ep. "First Contact" [TNG], nor did it have anything to do with Star Fleet changing its first contact policy (both canon facts until Enterprise got ahold of the topic).

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Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
 

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Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay:
Disasterous could also mean "Whoops we left our advanced tech there and now they're about a century further ahead on the industrial development stage than they should be."

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I don't think so. I mean, "disasterous" definition is pretty clear (heh, I starting to sound like Guardian 2000 ) I agree that your both examples can qualify as pretty darn bad things, but not extremaly bad or terrible, as in 'disasterous'.

What was so bad in FC with Klingons that could cause it to be used as an example 200 years later? If anything, it could be only used as an example of good First Contact, slightly messed up at the beginning, but then smoothed over and carried to the triumphant end.

(BTW, has anyone of you had the chance to read Broken Bow novelisation? In this particular scene Klaangs only worry was that he would be shot in the back by Sulibans and considered cowardly (he also wonders if he can run backwards. No, really) So when Moore shoots him he's almost grateful, because he shoots him in the front.)

Also note, that althought I don't like early Klingons too, this doesn't technically count as continuity violation, unfortunately.
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
Why unfortunatly?
 

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Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
 
Because although I consider introducing Klingons in 2151 to be a mistake, it's technically not a continuity violation, so it's beoyond the scope of current discussion.
 

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Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
 
PS: I hadn't a clue if the line in "First Contact" was about the Klingons... which is why I asked, I didn't even know if I was talking about "First Contact"--- remember not everyone knows the episodes act and scene by heart [no offense intended to those who do, I was just making a point].

NRFB
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
Another thing that should be mentioned is that time makes events seem more condensed. Most of us today probably think of World War II as an "event", despite the fact that it lasted almost six years. For all we know, when Picard referred to the Klingon "first contact", he was actually referring to a whole series of events in the early history between humans and Klingons. Especially if most of those events involved Archer (the Klaang incident, the Rura Penthe incident, and whatever might be coming up in the show), they may be thought of collectively as "Klingon first contact" 200 years in the future.
 

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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 

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I don't think so. I mean, "disasterous" definition is pretty clear (heh, I starting to sound like Guardian 2000 ) I agree that your both examples can qualify as pretty darn bad things, but not extremaly bad or terrible, as in 'disasterous'.

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Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay:
As far as the Klingons go, the first contact started Earth and the Klingons down the road to hostilities and eventually open war. I'd call that pretty disasterous, wouldn't you?

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Originally posted by TSN:
Another thing that should be mentioned is that time makes events seem more condensed. Most of us today probably think of World War II as an "event", despite the fact that it lasted almost six years. For all we know, when Picard referred to the Klingon "first contact", he was actually referring to a whole series of events in the early history between humans and Klingons. Especially if most of those events involved Archer (the Klaang incident, the Rura Penthe incident, and whatever might be coming up in the show), they may be thought of collectively as "Klingon first contact" 200 years in the future.

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PICARD: Chancellor, no starship mission is more dangerous than first contact. We never know what we face when we open the door to a new world. How will we be greeted? What are the dangers? Centuries ago, a disastrous first contact with the Klingon Empire led to decades of war. It was decided then that we must do surveillance before making contact. It was a controversial decision. But I believe it prevents more problems than it
creates.

DURKEN: I appreciate the logic of your position, Captain. But it would seem a full disclosure after contact would have been in order.

PICARD: In time, there would have been full disclosure. I know I can only ask you to believe that. On some worlds, it is not even an issue. But here, everything our observers reported suggested the people of this world would almost certainly react negatively to our arrival. We could see our surveillance might even be interpreted as an act of aggression.

I was hoping that we would find Commander Riker before you did...so the matter would not complicate our introduction. And it was a mistake.

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Quite clearly the "centuries ago" thing throws a monkey-wrench into the debate....then again there is the whole "McCoy and '50-years of hostilities'" argument.

Clearly the rest, "a disastrous first contact with the Klingon Empire led to decades of war" would seem to nullify the 'oh, it built up (or happened) over a period of time'. Cut 'n dry, 'A' lead 'B' contrary to 'AB' are one in the same.
 

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Well, let's see. Humans treated Klingons like humans ("I'll bet they'll hate it if this guy gets killed, and if we give them a hand they'll no doubt feel indebted to us.") as a result of not having the proper cultural intelligence on file (and not listening to the people who claimed to have it), and the Klingons, being Klingon, and not human, reacted in a nonhuman way.

Brilliant storytelling? I don't think it was carried off to the extremes it could have been, though I think the concept is neat. (People burned by their best intentions.) But certainly not some unimaginable breach in the Natural Order of Things. (Which isn't to say it isn't a breach at all, if one really wants to make it out to be so.)
 

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Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
 
I must point out that any First Contact is one, single event, impossible to confuse with five-years war... but Futurama Guy already said that

So, Picards quote is vague, but please remember that as of right now there is no way (except time travel) for Klingon-Terran First Contact to be the cause of those "decades of war". Like I was saying, we were given completely different cause of hostilities. And yes, Klingons and Terrans aren't at war yet, but sending Duras to retrieve Archer is, at least in my opinion, a clear sign that things can get ugly very quick.

Oh, and going back to the "rewriting history books", scenario:
although I can't say that that scenario is completely impossible, remember that its Berman and Braga we are talking about - they simply doesn't appear to be interested in doing that kind of stories.
 

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Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kazeite:
So, Picards quote is vague, but please remember that as of right now there is no way (except time travel) for Klingon-Terran First Contact to be the cause of those "decades of war". Like I was saying, we were given completely different cause of hostilities. And yes, Klingons and Terrans aren't at war yet, but sending Duras to retrieve Archer is, at least in my opinion, a clear sign that things can get ugly very quick.

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Originally posted by Alshrim:
In Ent... the Klingons have WORF-HEADS... What gives??? hahaha... in 100 years of evolution - the Klingons went from a huge spiky foreheads.. to none at all - AND THEN BACK to the Worf-Heads some 80 years later !

Interesting eh? Darwin would have a field day.

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