Well, we saw Cojenitor last night. A VERY VERY good episode. I really liked it - and I WAS spoiled about the ending a few months ago - but I had forgotten - and it made me feel awful what happened to the Cojenitor!
This episode was like dealing with Interference with other cultures, Getting along with other cultures, Sexual descrimination, Political and Social problems etc.
BUT - does anyone think that this episode was originally written for Voyager?
I mean - I thought to myself after the episode - I hope they continue with some of the issues raised by Archer towards Trip, and Trip dealing with what he did. This episode was TOTALLY TREK - it was seeking out new life and new civilisations AND boldy going where no man has gone before - into that beautiful star!! ((Although I couldn't believe that race was so willing to part with their technological secrets so readily - maybe this is how Starfleet originally became so advanced!?!)) The new season I read about that people in the US are seeing - sounds dissapointing - because it's not Trek - not like this episode was - there is no getting to know new races etc - it's about vendetta! Why not just call it Star Trek: Vendetta?
BUT! After the episode I thought to myself - why would Cojenitor work on Enterprise and not elsewhere? Immediately I though - Voyager - it would have worked equally as well on Voyager.
I thought about who Trip's equivalent would have been - Harry Kim. I can even see the ending with Janeway dressing him down and acting so dissapointed with him - and that she though Harry would have learnt better from her - being their and watching the difficult Prime Directive situations she's had to deal with.
The Doctor would have fit Phlox's part. Tom Paris would have been Reed's part (obviously before he hooked up with B'Elanna) Janeway would have been getting along with the other Captain. The whole Tech storyline with the Engineer would have made more sense - seeing as this race might have had technology to aide Voyager on it's way home. Pity Voyager didn't do it. Although most would have bagged it anyway - just because it was Voyager.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on September 17, 2003 12:58 PM:
I know you live in Alpha Centauri and are only getting to see Cogenitor just now but I can say (from the FUTURE!) that if you liked that good episode, you'll be truly impressed with the second installment of season three. Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on September 17, 2003 02:09 PM:
Why, what do they have in common?
And I don't see the Voyager angle. I mean, of course you could replace one doctor with another. So?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on September 17, 2003 09:56 PM:
Not just the Doctor - I'm talking about the WHOLE episode - is there anything in that episode that made it an ENTERPRISE episode? It could have easily have been done - or even originally written for Voyager.
I'm saying I could see Harry Kim originally being in Trip's place.
You could basically change ships and characters and everything would fit perfectly. 22nd or 24th century, Alpha or Delta quadrant.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on September 17, 2003 10:30 PM:
NOOOO!!!
You see, in the 22nd century, they're called 'phase pistols', and in the 24th century, they're called 'phasers'. See? You have to think like TPTB here.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on September 17, 2003 10:52 PM:
Add the fact that Voyager's crew is far less likable than Trip.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on September 18, 2003 12:38 AM:
Y'know, when I watched "Starship Down", I had that same feeling. I thought "It sounds like they wrote this for another Trek - oh yeah, TNG ... they filmed it, too."
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on September 18, 2003 01:11 AM:
How do you figure? I don't recall the TNG ever shooting it out with three starships in a planet's atmosphere... Of course it could have happened in the long bad halucination that was TNG's season seven....
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on September 18, 2003 01:51 AM:
"Disaster". Of course, while there were similarities, "Starship Down" wasn't a total carbon copy.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on September 18, 2003 02:09 AM:
No, it just felt like one ...
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on September 18, 2003 09:32 AM:
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: I don't recall the TNG ever shooting it out with three starships in a planet's atmosphere...
Superficial summary of the episode: Defiant shoots Jem Hadar ships while in Gas Giant.
Actual episode: Series of small character pieces based around a massive disaster having taken place on the ship, and how the crew go about saving either the ship, or just their own lives.
Similarity exists.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on September 18, 2003 10:27 AM:
It's actually closer to a submarine movie's plot. See K-19? same plot structure.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on September 18, 2003 12:01 PM:
True, Liam, but the character pieces themselves were very different. Being different characters. Except Worf.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on September 18, 2003 08:05 PM:
Well, you could make a case that "character has trouble getting others to follow his orders" appears in both, with Picard and Worf.
But I wasn't saying that they were the same episode. I'm saying that the plot outline was the same. The whole "trapped in gas giant" was just a mechanism to put the crew in that situation, and wasn't what the actual point was. Yeah, Worf and co were trying to fix the ship, but the actual point there was that Worf was having trouble getting non-coms to obey him. Likewise, Quark and Zefram Cochrain were suppossed to be diffusing a torpedo, but that was a way of letting a new life form (and us) learn about how Quark's values and traditions can be useful.
So, it was the same plot sort, but because the plot was very much a character piece, it ended up being different, simply because the characters were different.
I was just saying that calling "Disaster" and "Starship Down" different because the ship hits a natural space mine anomoly in one, and is trapped in a gas giant while being pursued in other, is fairly erronous.
And that post was far too long.
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on September 19, 2003 03:03 AM:
Cogenitor introduced a lame half-thought out alien species that would never appear again, this in itself is Voyagerish.. other than that, i found Trip's dilemma to be a lot better than some of ENT (and modern Trek's) poor attempts at attepting TOS' humanistic/moral dilemma approach.. this ep actually made sense, and didnt fall into the VGR mold of the easy non-thought provoking ending... that being said, the ENT ep actually accomplishes a lot more impact than the TNG 'Outcast' which attempted a similar scenario.. plus i found the acting and characterisation to be superior to some ENT eps that precede or follow it (Archer, Trip, and to a lesser extent, Reed, were well handled as acting 1> like themselves and 2> not like cookie-cutter Starfleeters {see: VGR}
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on September 19, 2003 04:40 AM:
Actually Cogenitor reminded me more of the ep. where Riker falls for the androgenous alien o' the week.
Officer that should know better gets involved with a female of a new species, gets emotionally involved based on human preconeptions and tragedy results.
Picard was waaaay too understanding of Riker's blatant stupidity in that situation and Archer was a *bit* too harsh.
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on September 19, 2003 04:52 AM:
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Actually Cogenitor reminded me more of the ep. where Riker falls for the androgenous alien o' the week.
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike20X6: that being said, the ENT ep actually accomplishes a lot more impact than the TNG 'Outcast' which attempted a similar scenario
'Outcast' is the episode where Riker falls for the androgynous chick Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on September 19, 2003 05:03 AM:
Ah. Well then, I agree with the previous post.
You guys think the "woman" from Outcast had both sex organs, neither or something alltogether diffrent?
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on September 19, 2003 05:40 AM:
what's between it's legs? s/he has six nubbles...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on September 19, 2003 05:42 AM:
This is more perplexing than the "three shells in the bathroom" thing. Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on September 19, 2003 06:14 AM:
No it's not. She had an "inseminator" according to dialogue. In other words, she had a winkie.
Move on.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on September 19, 2003 01:03 PM:
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike20X6: Cogenitor introduced a lame half-thought out alien species that would never appear again, this in itself is Voyagerish.. other than that, i found Trip's dilemma to be a lot better than some of ENT (and modern Trek's) poor attempts at attepting TOS' humanistic/moral dilemma approach.. this ep actually made sense, and didnt fall into the VGR mold of the easy non-thought provoking ending...
Well that's not true - except that Voyager had less of those type of thought provoking endings - than it should have.
One of Voyager's best episodes (in one of it's best seasons - the first) was the episode called "Prime Factors" I think, with Tuvok bascially sticking it to Janeway and she goes absolutely nuts at him... (when he stole the space folding technology) she was like... SCARY - I've had teachers that acted like her in the end of that episode.
Tuvok doing it - really pushed forward his character - but... they didn't keep it up and Voyager was worse off for it.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on September 19, 2003 03:35 PM:
Well, if they'd have kept it up the series would have ended by season three.
Tuvok: the shining light of good charactization among the wreckage.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on September 19, 2003 10:39 PM:
?
Voyager had 3 full seasons of good episodes and 4 full seasons of crud?
probably about right??
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on September 19, 2003 10:55 PM:
Voyager had three good seasons if you skip around the series picking the best episodes and grouping them together. If only we could do a "build your own boxed set" for trek series.
Untill they do, TNG will be taped from TNT only. Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on September 19, 2003 11:56 PM:
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: ?
Voyager had 3 full seasons of good episodes and 4 full seasons of crud?
probably about right??
more like Voyager had 6 good episodes and 7 seasons of crud...
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on September 20, 2003 07:40 AM:
According to you. Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on September 22, 2003 03:46 AM:
"she was like... SCARY"
Name one episode in which she wasn't, intentionally or otherwise.
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