The second one is just a pointless general OMGWTF promo, with 1 second of Brent Spiner.
The first one is a bit weird.. it seems to have been edited very badly, with T'Pol's lines edited into one strangely Jamaican sounding sentence.
I won't waste more breath on how incredibly stupid and distasteful this whole Nazi-crap is, but I sincerely hope Manny Coto can move beyond the Braga-crap and get our people out of the burning wreck that is the Temporal War.
Posted by deadcujo (Member # 13) on :
omg it's Data.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Unfortunatly, to quote Berman: "The Nazis eill play a part in several episodes next season."
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Berman needs to speak a bit more clearly, methinks.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
He was obviously torn between saying will and just launching into the full blown 'Heil Hitler' Nazi impression.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Uh...remind me again why exactly people have a problem with using Nazis as villains?
Posted by F.G. (Member # 968) on :
unoriginal, used before in two other series - or hey, there is nothing wrong with Communism, use that, lets make Stalin proud!
[ September 08, 2004, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: F.G. ]
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I say, let Buddhists be the new bad guys! Those fuckers get off easy.
Oh, and that view of the White House? Worst FX shot ever.
Posted by F.G. (Member # 968) on :
I say Mormons, if you wanna play the religion card.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
They've made all of the USA the Republic of Deseret! Run for your lives!!!
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
The subject line should say "der Zukunft", as IIRC, after the preposition "aus", the Dativ mode is to follow...
Looks to me like the video was captured from a VHS recording... not too much definition.
"Those are P-51s!" Yes, and those are Jagdtigers... I wonder what's the purpose of parking a couple tank hunters (which have an impressive 128mm cannon but very limited gun traverse) guarding what is supposed to be a very important building.
quote:Jagdtiger resembled King Tiger with the difference of having a superstructure instead of the turret and had much higher profile what made it a large target for the enemy.
quote:Jagdtiger suffered from the same problems as Koenigstiger, because of its great weight and high fuel consumption (5 liters per 1km of road) that made it extremely slow. Jagdtiger's breakdown problem was never solved and many were abandoned or blown up by their crews to prevent them from being captured intact by the Allies.
quote:Jagdtigers best tactical use was as a well camouflaged static defense pillbox allowing it to use its armament to its full potential.
quote:Overall, from July of 1944 to April of 1945, only 85 Jagtigers were manufactured (out of 150 ordered) with known chassis numbers 305001 to 305077 or to 305088.
quote:"When the assault guns were calibrated in Sennelager, we experienced our first failure. Despite its 82 tons, our Hunting Tiger didn't want to act like we wanted it to. Only its armor was satisfactory, its maneuverability left a lot to be desired. In addition, it was an assault gun. There was no traversing turret, just an enclosed armored housing. Any large traversing of the main gun had to be done by moving the entire vehicle. Because of that, transmission and steering differentials soon broke down. That such a monstrosity had to be constructed in the final phase of the war made no sense at all." - Otto Carius, "Tiger im Schlamm".
Definitely not the best choice. They should have placed a couple of K�nigstigers, or maybe a Maus or an E-100 there, which were heavy tanks, with rotating turrets... couldn't they get a model for any of them? And no Flak whatsoever?
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Because otherwise the entire premise is utterly plausible.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
The misuse of tanks is only a minor nuisance compared to the complete impossibilty of Hitler invading the United States.
And if really want to nitpick, watch out for the German ranks and uniforms. I suspect they won't make much sense either.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
But it's an alternate timeline. And he has help from aliens. From the future.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
ADN THERE VAMPIIIRES!1!!!
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I thought the Initiative foiled the Nazi Vampire project.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: The misuse of tanks is only a minor nuisance compared to the complete impossibilty of Hitler invading the United States.
Oh, I know, but I think I already mentioned that (though maybe it wasn't here... I think it may have been on the soc.history.what-if NG, where people agree on the impossibility of a successful Operation Sea Lion -the invasion of the British Isles-, so invading the U.S. would be considered even more impossible, if there's such a thing as relative degrees of impossibility)
(oh, and Sturmtigers aren't tanks, they are assault guns/tank hunters) Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
But if he had help? Say, from aliens? From the future?
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
wouldn't Hitler turn on the aliens? since theyre obviously not of the master race.. or can prove that he isn't
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Maybe they got rid of Hitler and put that guy from Justice League in charge
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
But still that leaves the Soviet Union and the UK to worry about. Or am I supposed to believe that Stalin and Churchill were also replaced by VAMPIRES FROM SPAAAAACE?
Posted by F.G. (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by machf: (oh, and Sturmtigers aren't tanks, they are assault guns/tank hunters)
For the record, Sturmtigers were 'self propelled guns'...more specifically a modified Tiger I tank chassis with a mounted naval 380 mm RTg launcher. A mean fucker.
Flakpanzers would have been an ideal choice for resolving whatever the hell started this tangent.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Perhaps you're supposed to believe that this is an alternate timeline, in which (no doubt to the aliens' advice and behind-the-scenes assistance, who would have the hindsight of our modern historians and then some) the war proceeded in a different fashion than as we know. Perhaps Hitler never broke his nonagression pact with Stalin. Perhaps the Luftwaffe *was* successful in winning the Battle of Britain. And so on...
I hardly think it appropriate to argue about whether any of this could have really happen in real life, when the whole premise of the episode is that history has been ALTERED, and what's more, altered by outside beings with likely-superior technology and a knowledge of what the long-term results of specific strategic/tactical decisions will be.
And as for Americans being obsessed with the Nazis, you've got to keep in mind that they were just about the greatest enemy we ever fought, in the biggest (and some would say, the most glorious) war. And their "take over the world in the name of the master race" plot makes them perfectly suited as comic book/sci-fi villains.
-MMoM Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"And as for Americans being obsessed with the Nazis, you've got to keep in mind that they were just about the greatest enemy we ever fought, in the biggest (and some would say, the most glorious) war."
Well, I'd think that would apply more to Europe. We ought to be more obsessed with Japan. After all, they're the ones who actually attacked us. And it took longer to beat them than Germany (at least in terms of how long the US fought each).
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I hate Star Trek for inventing Nazis and timelines where the Nazis won.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
But the Japanese were more or less Hitler's underlings. (Though admittedly less so than the Italians.) And they were latecomers to the war, whose impetus lay in Germany and the aftermath of the previous world war. And the battles fought with them were almost entirely out in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, not the farms and cities of the populated world. While they were the ones who attacked us, everyone pretty much agreed that Germany was actually the bigger threat in the grand scheme of things. (Hence why the Atlantic/European front was made our priority from the get-go.)
Besides, Pearl Harbor was just our "excuse" to officially enter the ful-blown war. We had already been not-so-covertly aiding the fight against Germany for quite some time beforehand.
-MMoM Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote:But the Japanese were more or less Hitler's underlings.
This is so wrong.
But accurate descriptions of the war are likely to spill over the hard drives of our server, so can't we all agree to go read one of the $BIGNUMBER (I totally stole that from people who know about computers or Unix or FORTRAN or something) books published about it, or watch the WWII Channel?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
All right, let me clarify: In the PERCEPTION of the general public at the time and today, the Japanese were more or less Hitler's underlings.
I also might point out that using the "evil Japanese" would be construed as racist, while using "evil Nazis" would be just the opposite.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote: Perhaps you're supposed to believe that this is an alternate timeline, in which (no doubt to the aliens' advice and behind-the-scenes assistance, who would have the hindsight of our modern historians and then some) the war proceeded in a different fashion than as we know. Perhaps Hitler never broke his nonagression pact with Stalin. Perhaps the Luftwaffe *was* successful in winning the Battle of Britain. And so on...
It really all depends on the level of technology the aliens give the Nazis. An invasion accross the Atlantic using 1940s technology would be nigh-on impossible I'd think. Not to mention the state of troops who's just spent however many days crossing an ocean. They'd hardly be in the best shape for mounting an invasion.
As for why the Nazis were used (again), it's simply because they're instantly recongnized by most people as being evil. It saves time as they don't have to do much to establish that the aliens are not nice. Just show them in a Nazi uniform.
Posted by Pensive's Left testes for mayor... (Member # 1203) on :
quote:We ought to be more obsessed with Japan.
we are obsessed. or have you not seen Macross Zero lately? or Love Hina? Gundam SEED? Kitty Grade? Akira?
and if any of you fucks talks shit about Zero, i will offer complimentory skull fucks for the slight Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by F.G.: For the record, Sturmtigers were 'self propelled guns'...more specifically a modified Tiger I tank chassis with a mounted naval 380 mm RTg launcher. A mean fucker.
Damn, I meant to type Jagdtigers... of course, Sturmtigers were a different kind of beast. And produced in even smaller amounts.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wraith:
quote: Perhaps you're supposed to believe that this is an alternate timeline, in which (no doubt to the aliens' advice and behind-the-scenes assistance, who would have the hindsight of our modern historians and then some) the war proceeded in a different fashion than as we know. Perhaps Hitler never broke his nonagression pact with Stalin. Perhaps the Luftwaffe *was* successful in winning the Battle of Britain. And so on...
It really all depends on the level of technology the aliens give the Nazis. An invasion accross the Atlantic using 1940s technology would be nigh-on impossible I'd think. Not to mention the state of troops who's just spent however many days crossing an ocean. They'd hardly be in the best shape for mounting an invasion.
As for why the Nazis were used (again), it's simply because they're instantly recongnized by most people as being evil. It saves time as they don't have to do much to establish that the aliens are not nice. Just show them in a Nazi uniform.
Well, regarding a successful Sea Lion, most people over at s.h.w-i agree that it could only have happened with intervention of some ASBs (Alien Space Bats). The thing is, would even ASB intervention have been enough to allow an invasion of the U.S.? These Nazi Aliens sure qualify as ASBs (they even have a somewhat vampiresque appearance, after all), but so far, the information that we have is that they're supposed to have helped the Nazis but in a way that the general public doesn't know of their existence. So, that wouldn't allow the use of any too advanced weaponry, shielding or possibly even vehicles/ships. Besides, they're stuck on that timeframe, right? Knowing how to build advanced tech isn't enough, you also need to have the proper means to do it. What could they have provided them with? Maybe replicators, to create more raw materials so they can build more of their own weapon designs? (but if they had replicators, they could have replicated other, more advanced stuff too... hmmm). Maybe just some matter transmuter (which wouldn't be as complicated and capable as a replicator)? Of course, we can only speculate based on as little as we know, until we actually get to watch the episodes and see if there's an answer in them. But after all, that's where the fun is, in the speculation...
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Well, I still think you're not thinking far enough outside of the box. What if Hitler posponed Sea Lion until he had further broken down British defenses in some other way? Suppose his strategy was completely different from any we know. (Strategic and tactical advisors is how I'm thinking of the aliens, to whom our human wars would seem primitive and easy to manipulate. They could certainly have steered him away from that nasty Russian invasion that cost him so much in the end.)
All I'm saying is that we shouldn't assume the same conditions/constrictions imposed on all the players in this alternate war as in ours. Changing a few of the basic "rules" would lead to far-reaching consequences. This is a big component of time travel.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
It shouldn't be overly difficult to invade the US during WWII had things gone better for the Nazis. First off, the battle of Britian had to be won by the Nazis. There is really no way they could have gone around Britian all the time to stage an attack on the US. Britian would have to fall. The second thing that would have to be changed would be that Hitler should not have split his forces when they went after the resource rich Cacassus Mountains in Russia. He should have gone straight for those resources and forgotten about Moscow until later--- having secured Britian and those mountains it would have been nearly impossible for the Germans to have been pushed back from their gains--- again the only worries would have been an Allied beachhead in Africa or an easy method of supply from America directly to Russia where American forces could then be placed on that front [but would Stalin have allowed that?].
So with the Germans relatively secure, how could Hitler have turned his eyes toward America? Easy, IMO. Greenland had few if any American forces during WWII. Greenland was Denmark's until the war, and then Denmark handed it over to protect it. But I can't recall if the US stationed many forces there or not. Whether or not there were, I would think that a German landing force would be able to form a beachhead on Greenland and then eventually take over that island, with Greenland Germany would have had no problem with an eventual invasion of North America, whether that be thru Canada or not.
At the moment, I'm of the opinion that if Germany had won the Battle of Britian they would have won the war. It would have been incredibly difficult for the Allies to gain a beachhead and then push back Rommel like they did without Britian still being a free nation. Without that, Italy would have remained an unknown front in the war--- so both a western and southern advance would have not existed. As for the Russians, I don't think we could have put the amount of troops that we did in Britian into Russia. I'm not certain if Stalin would have allowed American forces, in those great numbers, to come in thru Russian ports and then fight on the eastern front. Without a western front, Hitler would have little problem with the Russians, especially as isolated as they would have probably been. I think Hitler would have found it easy to plan and attempt an attack on North America.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"Britain".
Also, mounting an invasion of North America != mounting an invasion of the British isles.
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
quote:wouldn't Hitler turn on the aliens? since theyre obviously not of the master race.. or can prove that he isn't
Try to google with these:
thule, haunebu, andromeda, vril
Enjoy the results!
Or if you are too lazy to search for yourself - this page sums it up quite nicely:
(Note that these crazy theories have been around for decades - it was only a matter of time before Berman and Braga would find out about the potential for a crappy Trek tie-in... )
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
The fuck?!
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pensive's Left testes for mayor...:
quote:We ought to be more obsessed with Japan.
we are obsessed. or have you not seen Macross Zero lately? or Love Hina? Gundam SEED? Kitty Grade? Akira?
Oh yes, those are easily the most popular anime shows in America. Forget cute animals kicking the crap out of each other, or people standing around staring at each other for 20 minutes before they turn their hair golden...it's the magic of Kitty Grade that has the entire population glued to their TV sets.
Christ, I bet more Americans have heard of Hamtaro than Love Hina.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Is it okay if I've never heard of either?
Posted by ulTRS magDOS (Member # 239) on :
I sure hate Japan.
Posted by lennier1 (Member # 1309) on :
quote:Christ, I bet more Americans have heard of Hamtaro than Love Hina.
What do you expect from a country where even a moron like Schwarzenegger can gain political power? It�s the same down here in Germany. Almost everyone knows "Pokeshit" (Pokemon) and "Digicrap" (Digimon). The crappier the anime show the more people know about it. Jewels like "Gunslinger Girl" won�t get much atterntion outside Japan unless they�re destroyed through the dubbing process (Somehow the Americans managed to have the best fansubbers in the world and to produce the worst commercial dubbings of all times at the same time!).
@Topic: Well, first of all I�m a German so I might have a biased POV. The new season is already called "Alien Nazis From Outer Space" among some fans around here. I still can�t believe B&B (Berman&Braga=B&B=german "bl�d&bl�der"=dumb&dumber=coincidence? *g*) could really be stupid enough to base a major plot on this crap which wouldn�t even be good enough for a B-movie.
BTW: The thread title isn�t that much incorrect. "Sie kamen aus der Zukunft!" = "They came from the future!".
Posted by ulTRS magDOS (Member # 239) on :
Oh man, Pokeshit and Digicrap! Berman & Braga = Dumb & Dumber! Lennier1, never stop rocking! :rock:
Posted by lennier1 (Member # 1309) on :
I finally start to like this board. Seems a lot better than "Moronland" (TNZ at trekbbs) where you get the distinct feeling that th people out there don�t know anything which isn�t related to the US presidential election.
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
You have actually used trekbbs? Shame on YOU! BTW, I'm from Germany too.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Wow. It's like driving as fast as possible down the wrong lane of the freeway, and you don't even realize you're in a car.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
I'm disappointed... I didn't hear a single critique of my speculation on Germany attacking North America during WWII---
Actually I'm not disappointed, I kinda expected less from what I got considering that I was expecting a bunch of "You're crazy" and "f you" type deals. So just a total digression into anime entertains me. How about Outlaw Star, Trigun, and Cowboy Bebop... good shows all. I hear there is an Outlaw Star 2, I'd like to see it. I'm trying to figure out Trigun, still I'm a little confused on the ending, I wonder if there's a sequel there. And I love Cowboy Bebop, but they kinda screwed that pooch if they were wanting to make more episodes.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Cowboy Bebop is just fine as it is.
(But, I cannot be the only one thinking of this: prequel movie: How Jet And Spike Met Up And Bought The Bebop. OK, so you do not have half the cast, but I would watch it.)
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by J: I'm disappointed... I didn't hear a single critique of my speculation on Germany attacking North America during WWII---
Actually I'm not disappointed, I kinda expected less from what I got considering that I was expecting a bunch of "You're crazy" and "f you" type deals.
I've been kind of busy.
You're crazy. F.U.
There you go.
(j/k)
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote: BTW: The thread title isn�t that much incorrect. "Sie kamen aus der Zukunft!" = "They came from the future!".
I mentioned that, but did anyone listen? No, noone listens... I feel like Zathras from B5...
No, I'm not German, my grandfather was... German is my second language (that doesn't mean that English is the first, it's the third).
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by J: It shouldn't be overly difficult to invade the US during WWII had things gone better for the Nazis. First off, the battle of Britian had to be won by the Nazis. There is really no way they could have gone around Britian all the time to stage an attack on the US. Britian would have to fall.
At the moment, I'm of the opinion that if Germany had won the Battle of Britian they would have won the war. It would have been incredibly difficult for the Allies to gain a beachhead and then push back Rommel like they did without Britian still being a free nation.
The problem is, defeating the RAF in the Battle of Britain (which might have happened) wouldn't be enough, there was still the RN (well, the Home Fleet part of it) which outnumbered the KM by something like 4:1, IIRC. Crossing the channel would still be very difficult, and once the invasion troops have disembarked, there's still the problem of supplying them across the channel. Not to mention the resistance they would find on the islands. The ASBs could help by sinking the Home Fleet (or by giving the Germans death rays to do it), but supposedly they're trying to keep a low profile... Now, try to imagine those problems in an even larger scale.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
Sorry, double post... please remove this one.
Posted by Pensive's Left testes for mayor... (Member # 1203) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Wow. It's like driving as fast as possible down the wrong lane of the freeway, and you don't even realize you're in a car.
driving the family cow again, dear?
Posted by ulTRS magDOS (Member # 239) on :
I hate you.
Posted by Pensive's Left testes for mayor... (Member # 1203) on :
quote:Originally posted by ulTRS magDOS: I hate you.
driving, not fucking. no Bestiality references for you!
Posted by Mr. Turnbull (Member # 1323) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pensive's Left testes for mayor...:
quote:Originally posted by ulTRS magDOS: I hate you.
driving, not fucking. no Bestiality references for you!
NO SOUP FOR YOU!!!
Posted by ulTRS magDOS (Member # 239) on :
Good Christ.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
No, if he were, he'd stop all this.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by lennier1: Almost everyone knows "Pokeshit" (Pokemon) and "Digicrap" (Digimon).
Saying that Pokemon is shit compared to Cowboy Bebop is like saying that Justice League is crap when compared to Smallville.
Also, you are such a fanboy.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
If Germany defeated the RAF the English Channel would be the German's to own. No amount of English naval power would be able to defeat German airpower. Remember, that too win the Battle of Britain, Germany would have to destroy the majority of the UK's air power--- including naval airpower [if they had any in the English Channel]. The next matter would be that without air support, any ship within the channel would be a sitting duck. On the same matter, German U-boats could protect the channel and allow a great deal of freedom for German operations between France and Britain.
Now the last matter of resistence, it wouldn't be too much of a concern to control the island, only to keep the UK from affecting Germany's future plans. If the UK has no airpower then they can be easily and repeatedly invaded, it doesn't matter if Germany makes any gains on the island, only that they begin to move around the island, cut it off from resupply. Destroy the UK's airpower, you cut off their one advantage to protect themselves. Slowly, with no airpower in Britain, Germany would be able to use U-boats and other vessels to cut off Britain from her supply ships, and the Royal Navy from their ports.
Doing that is enough to satisfy knocking Britain out of the war. For Germany to attack North America they do not need to stage their attack from the UK, France or Norway, or any other coast country will do--- it's more a matter of just clearing the way for a fleet of ships to go across the Atlantic and make a landing on Greenland to then launch an attack on North America--- Britain is in the way, but doesn't need to be put in submission for the plan to work.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Having neutralised the UK then (presumeably in 1940- early 1941), why would Germany then go on to invade the US? Unless the aliens persuaded them to, there would really be no reason. The two countries weren't at war and presumeably the Nazis would then turn their attention to their 'Lebensraum' in the East.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
By the time Germany could have presumably won the air war, the Japanese would have brought the Americans into the war. Who knows...
It would have been extremely hard for the Americans to enter the war in Europe, or for Germany to attack the Americans. For the US to attack Germany, their only viable route would have been to land a great deal of forces in Africa and push the Germans and Italians out then proceeding to invade Italy. However, German U-boats could have prevented this because of the lack of airsupport which the allies required to protect themselves from U-boats.
Out of the two, if Britain was knocked out of the Germany has it much easier. It's obvious that the US would attempt to land somewhere, Europe itself being to well defended, Britain being a trap--- only Norway and Africa would have been viable and easy invasion points--- Africa more likely of the two. So Germany would know what to defend. But I don't remember anything about US forces even being moved to Greenland once it's protection was transfered to them. And I doubt, if there were US forces in Greenland, those forces would have amounted to much or even been watching all of Greenland's coast line. Germany has it much easier to start their invasion than the US does.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
When in fuck does this air anyway? I grow weary of avoiding every *SPOILER* thread in existance.
I save that hell for Andrew.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
In the U.S., October 8th.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Kool...I have til then to decipher the non-sensical workings of my VCR's programming.
My current theory of it's operation: magic. Blackest magic at that.
Posted by Pensive's Left testes for mayor... (Member # 1203) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Kool...I have til then to decipher the non-sensical workings of my VCR's programming.
My current theory of it's operation: magic. Blackest magic at that.
Thayan? Sharian? Cyrist? Banite?
*blinks* sorry, was having a Forgotten Realms moment, Jason.
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
Originally posted by J:
quote: I'm disappointed... I didn't hear a single critique of my speculation on Germany attacking North America during WWII--
How about this: it wouldn't happen not because it couldn't, but because Hitler had bigger fish to fry.
Americans tend to have an exaggerated opinion of their role in WWII. But the U.S. didn't defeat the Nazis, the Soviet Union did. They had a little help from the West, sure, but for every division the Wermacht threw into the ETO, it had ten on the Eastern Front. And while there were a few exceptions, most of the Nazi forces in the ETO consisted of reservists, old men, and Hitler Youth units.
If aliens had reinforced Nazi Germany, Hitler wouldn't have gone right off and conquered the U.S. because he wouldn't want to. He'd be hiking his fanny off east and having another go at Moscow.
There, you have a critique. Happy?
Marian
This random sig quote is brought to you by The Order Of The Stick: "Now you listen to me, young man, you will drink the blood of the innocent, and you will LIKE IT. And would it kill you to dress all in black once in awhile?"
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Of course, said aliens may have destroyed the Soviet Union orbitally for all we know, allowing the Germans to invade the US with the help of giant spacecraft that moved their entire army in one day.
Or not.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Wasn't Hitler's plan to ultimately take over the entire world? (Ironically, this was also Stalin's.)
Posted by F.G. (Member # 968) on :
...and Alexander the Great...and KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNN!!!
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: Wasn't Hitler's plan to ultimately take over the entire world? (Ironically, this was also Stalin's.)
Actually, no. His most important goal was to create a German Lebensraum in (Eastern) Europe, and cleaning that Lebensraum from 'Untermenschen'. The whole North-Africa business began with the Germans defending Italian assets that came under attack from England. And Hitler didn't have the faintest clue about America. He changed his mind a few times about what to think of Americans and the Nazis were largely ignorant of America's power.
That's not to say Stalin and Hitler woulnd't have been content with being leader of the world...
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
I've only seen the movie, alas. Stupid schedule.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Okay, I'm joining this discussion a little late, but I've got a few points that haven't been addressed so far:
First and foremost, MANPOWER. Just how the fuck does anyone think Germany could launch a successful invasion of both the Soviet Union and America while they're outnumbered something like 10:1 in terms of population? We know that the TCW aliens are supposed to be laying low (so that most of the world doesn't know of their interference), so the weaponry can't have affected things too much.
I agree that Britain is the key turning point in Germany's fortunes, and the key to keeping the eventual American invasion of Europe at bay. However, Germany didn't have the infrastructure and logistical establishment to launch a cross-Channel invasion of Britain, even if the Battle of Britain was decided in Germany's favor. The simple fact is that Germany wasn't equipped for an amphibious assault, period.
How the heck were the Germans able to launch a successful trans-Atlantic amphibious assault, anyway? There's literally no staging areas (aside from Greenland or Bermuda, which are both pretty damn far from the US coast) from which the Germans could launch their attacks. All of the Allied assaults succeeded because they were launched from relatively near the target -- England and N. Africa, plus nearby islands in the massive archipelagos of the W. Pacific. There's nothing comparable on the North American/Atlantic side of the world.
Moving on, let's just suppose that Germany actually COULD launch an invasion of North America. Just what the hell were the Americans doing while Germany was landing on their shores? Unless America wasn't even in the war at that point (i.e. Germany launched an unprovoked attack) then there's no reasonable way that a prepared defending army would be able to lose THAT much territory in such a short space of time.
The most fatal flaw in all this is the timing. There's a finite window of opportunity in which the aliens could have started their interference -- not before 1933 or 1934, when the Nazis seized power and started implementing their policies. Any sooner than that, and things would've been changed far too much from our own timeline. And the later the aliens started intervening, the less time the Germans would have to make all their territorial gains. 1944, my ass.
I think that B&B need to take some remedial history classes. They know the facts, but their lack of understanding of history quite frankly sickens me.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cartman: I've only seen the movie, alas. Stupid schedule.
The book is far better. Just for a change.
quote: Moving on, let's just suppose that Germany actually COULD launch an invasion of North America.
It's not even an invasion of North America though. From those graphics in the preview it looked to be an invasion of the US east coast. Which makes it even more implausible.
quote:I think that B&B need to take some remedial history classes. They know the facts, but their lack of understanding of history quite frankly sickens me.
Absolutely.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Hopefully the episode will at least touch this point, but why the hell would anyone want Hitler in charge of the world? He's a completely unreliable madman. He has no need for allies, no need for anyone besides the German people. And if it's just a way to get rid of humans in space, there are FAR easier ways to accomplish the same. The Borg certainly had a better plan.
And I'm pretty sure Braga just came up with this idea while masturbating to the History Channel or something.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Ok, I can revise it to consider the Russians more prominately, but I had taken care of that in the first post! First off, Germany could have won the air war over Britain--- but tied in with that the Battle of the Atlantic had to go towards the Germans. Britain was being resupplied too fast for the Germans to handle. However, taking Britain out of the war meant that the Germans didn't have to worry about that front--- free up assets for the other front.
Now, back to what I said in the original post. The Caucasus Mts is where Hitler lost with Russia. He shouldn't have split his forces, he should have taken those Mts and then moved on to Moscow afterwards.
Hey, don't get me wrong, I'm glad the Axis powers were defeated--- but hindsight seems to indicate we were lucky because Hitler was greedy and stupid. Of course, what power hungry meglomanic isn't greedy and stupid?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: Actually, no. His most important goal was to create a German Lebensraum in (Eastern) Europe, and cleaning that Lebensraum from 'Untermenschen'.
I don't buy that for a moment. That was the party line, but not the real deal. Hitler's hunger for "living space" knew no bounds, as his repeated advancements even after the territorial appeasements offered by the League of Nations showed. That was simply his excuse for his policy of agressive expansionism. And anti-semitism was just the tool he used to manipulate his masses. His true goal was power. Pure and simple.
I don't know what's the matter with y'all, why you're so touchy about Nazis being used, but personally it seems like a good Trek story to me, and I'm looking forward to it. You can say it isn't realistic, but what is, as far as Trek is concerned? And I don't care what y'all say, Nazis make the best villains. Look at Indiana Jones. Look at Hellboy. Nazis as villains = cool.
Somehow I feel like I just slit my own throat as far as this argument is concerned.
[ September 18, 2004, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Oh, Hitler definitely craved power, but I'm sure he also firmly believed in the Nazi ideology.
My main concern with this whole alternative WW2 stuff is that it's totally going to be one big God-bless-America-fest. I already see the Evil Nazis being defeated by the American People Coming Together In The Face of Danger. It's making my skin crawl.
I think you can very clearly see the completely different views of WW2 by comparing this ENT-storyline to the current German movie "Der Untergang". Germany (and Europe in general) is slowly coming to grips with it's past, and is trying to understand how Hitler and the Holocaust were allowed to happen. America, OTOH, seems to be quite happy with the Nazis as onedimensional Villains.
I might be overreacting. But I do feel that this has the possibility of becoming one of the worst episodes of Star Trek ever.
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
I completely agree with you.
"Der Untergang" is a perfect example that shows how different the European movie industry is from the one in Hollywood. And by the way, a very ironic fact: in this film Hitler is played by a Jewish actor!
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Well, there are films/shows made for historical perspective and the are films/shows made for entertainment. I thought we were dealing with the latter here.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
And that's exactly the problem. They're using the Nazis as entertainment, while they should be used as in an historical perspective.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"We know that the TCW aliens are supposed to be laying low (so that most of the world doesn't know of their interference), so the weaponry can't have affected things too much."
People keep saying this, but there are many more ways for the aliens to help the Nazis besides handing them rayguns. Introducing a plague into the populations of Germany's enemies, or example. Or sabotaging their weapons/supplies/etc. without ever leaving orbit.
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
The more I read about this shit, the more I know why I hate Berman & Braga for what they have done to Star Trek.
Nazi aliens, tits galore, entire episodes about the captain's dog... WTF!?!? I'm amazed that ANYONE still watches that stuff. As if Voyager wasn't bad enough, no, they managed to make it even worse.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: And that's exactly the problem. They're using the Nazis as entertainment, while they should be used as in an historical perspective.
They should be used for target practice and the occasional Mel Brooks punchline. That's my perspective- half of my family was killed by them, after all.
Sure, many soldiers were thrust into their wartime roles and I'm sure many grunts and civillians knew nothing of the camps...but most wholly supported Hitler's anti-jewish rethoric and ALL those fuckers in black knew exactly what was going on.
Theres a lot of resentment here towards a percieved notion that americans think they won the war single handedly: that's hollywood bullshit. No one I've ever met believes that.
Remember atht Enterprise IS "entertainment" nad I would'nt be overly concerned about them making all germans out to be monsters....aliens, mabye, but not monsters.
It'll still be superior to the TOS treatment, I'm sure.
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
I'll stick with TOS versus that ENT shit anytime. You call that entertainment? Most episodes I have seen so far were as dull as a bucket of mud.
So far I haven't seen any entertaining ENT episodes.
Posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
I kinda agree with Mr. Powers on the fact that I haven't seen any entertaining episodes... that much. The only thing that was close was Zero Hour.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
[edit: what the frell was THAT? Big big time delay in posts showing up, or the clocks are screwed up, one of the two.]
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge: I kinda agree with Mr. Powers on the fact that I haven't seen any entertaining episodes... that much. The only thing that was close was Zero Hour.
Funny that that's the one they're complaining about.
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
It's on tonight. Zero Hour I mean. Unfortunately on standard broadcast which I can't seem to get here. My friend only has cable and I think they are only showing VOY eps tonight.
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
quote:It'll still be superior to the TOS treatment, I'm sure.
I wouldn't bet on it. For all its campiness, "Patterns of Force" was probably Star Trek's best use of Nazis. Which, admittedly, is like saying that curdled milk smells better than rotten eggs, but still...
It's the only ep that actually deals with totalitarianism and its causes. Everything since has not only used Nazis as cookie-cutter, punchout villians, but has also made them something external, something other, not an evil that we ourselves are capable of and must guard against.
This new batch of Nazi aliens might break that trend, but I won't put any money on it.
Marian
This random sig quote is brought to you by an actual USAF control tower: "If it is an American Airlines flight, it is 3 o'clock. If it is an Air Force plane, it is 1500 hours. If it is a Navy aircraft, it is 6 bells. If it is an Army aircraft, the big hand is on the 12 and the little hand is on the 3. If it is a Marine Corps aircraft, it's Thursday afternoon."
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
I've never actually seen "Patterns of Force",but Spock in an SS uniform is a still pretty disturbing sight..
ENT has never really found it's way. The whole Xindi-arc suffered from the Delta Quadrant-syndrome: whatever happened in the Delphic Expanse had ZERO effect on the known Star Trek universe, since the whole Expanse was erased from history, and we're back to where we were at the end of season 2. Except that Archer is now a pessimistic angst-ridden captain, instead of an inept naive one.
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
Talk about the reset button syndrome...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:the whole Expanse was erased from history, and we're back to where we were at the end of season 2. Except that Archer is now a pessimistic angst-ridden captain, instead of an inept naive one
Oh...I dont know about that: Enterprise has character development galore. Voyager (as example) never changed any of their characters after second season (seven of breasts being the exception).
I think Archer will lighten up a bit after they get back to "their" earth but will be wiser and more well-rounded.
Though I'm a doe-eyed optimist.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
(What I don't get: Germany winning World War II is, like, perhaps one of the most common of the Common Plots, which is itself a fine criticism, but, like, Brannon Braga invented the idea? Whatever you say. And anyway, someone should have told these aliens that they could have accomplished their goal just by not killing Edith Keeler.)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
While I avoid the "spoilers", I speculate that the aliens may not want outright victory for Germany but rather a prolonging of the war. Possibly their invasion de-railed the Manhattan Project nad humanity never develops nuclear power, never has WWII nad never gets the visit from the Vulcans years later.
-as one of many possible motivations only.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Well, if we hadn't developed the atom bomb, the Germans surely would have. Wasn't one of the big reasons the Manhattan Project got the go-ahead that they were making alarming headway with the concept? Didn't Albert Einstein send a letter warning of this progress to President Roosevelt as early as 1940? I seem to recall reading something like that.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
That was the underlying fear, but there's serious debate as to Germany's chances. There were many factions competing for funding and Hitler's approval during the war would have gone to those that could yield quick results.
Plus, many of the top minds on the Manhattan Project would have been sent to their deaths under german rule.
Einstein's letter just gave the US military the kick in the ass it needed to proceed with what must have been considered (by many in the US military) as a waste of time and money.
From a story POV, Germany developing the bomb first may have led to nuclear anihilation years later- that humanity would not recover from.
Thus- the Aliens win! Posted by lennier1 (Member # 1309) on :
@all: Sorry about the late reaponse. I�ve been pretty busy during the last weeks.
@Austin Powers: Greeting from Regensburg. I�ve only used trekbbs because of "Star Trek - Hidden Frontier" and to get some reference material for my CGI projects (I�m a scifi-meshes.com addict). And because some stupid threads in TNZ are funnier than a whole week of sitcoms (even if it�s not always intended). Actually I joined Flare a while ago because "The Reverend" is one of my favorite fan artists and I wanted a possibility to give him some feedback for his future projects. Threads like this one and the discussions in the flameboard section are the reason why I�ve started to use this board regularly.
quote:And that's exactly the problem. They're using the Nazis as entertainment, while they should be used as in an historical perspective.
@Harry: That�s exactly the problem with these episodes.
quote:Well, if we hadn't developed the atom bomb, the Germans surely would have.
@The Mighty Monkey of Mim: Does anyone still believe that shit? The plans for the German nuke were abandoned when the project was still in its early stage. The whole story of the ongoing research was only used for propaganda reasons.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Actually, it was abandoned because of the Telemach (not sure if this is right) commando raid which destroyed the Nazi stocks of heavy water (or something- it's been ages since I saw the program). And one of the reasons the Soviets were so determined to get to Berlin first and so ruthless in their advance was because of a desire to get their hands on German nuclear research. It's still highly unlikely that the Third Reich could have developed a nuke without significant additional resources (aliens!!)
Posted by F.G. (Member # 968) on :
Depends on who you are, but the spelling I've seen is "Telemark" - I'm sure it is just the Americanized version of it.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
And for the record, Season Three is not Shakespeare. It's just a rather drawn out story with a predictive ending (the ugly aliens are evil, wake me up when Earth is saved and we can get back to business).
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"And for the record, Season Three is not Shakespeare. It's just a rather drawn out story with a predictive ending..."
There are those who would say the same of Shakespeare...
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
There are a lot who say the same about life itself.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Well, this is getting deeply philisophical. On which note, I'm now off to university so may not be around for a week or so. Have fun!
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wraith: Well, this is getting deeply philisophical.
You're right. Let's get back to those wacky Nazis! OMGLOL!
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
(It's almost as if time and distance alter the meaning of events, but surely that's just crazy talk.)
Posted by Irishman (Member # 1188) on :
I like sandwiches.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Okay. I have to admit it was not as bad as I imagined it would be.
There was no annoying American patriotism, and at least they made an effort to make the alternate timeline slightly believable.
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