In ENT � Terra Prime we see the terraforming of Mars underway and how Starfleet has begun to guide comets toward the Polar Regions to get more water on the planet- there are also domed cities on Mars at this point in time. I�m uncertain that Mars can ever be truly terraformed, especially on the timetable that we�ve seen in Trek. Mars has a lower mass than Earth, so it cooled faster, and though it has water and an atmosphere, I feel it once had more of an atmosphere, and more water, but that those have been mostly shed in the planet�s cooling, and it will continue to do so no matter how many comets we drop on it. Earth is protected by a magnetic field generated by the molten nickel iron outer core flowing over the solid nickel iron inner core, but as Mars has frozen solid, it does not produce a magnetic field, so the solar winds blow over it and very slowly carry away the atmosphere, and it also creates dangerous radiation levels on the surface if one were to stay. Though I think a technological way to create such a field is a worthy pursuit- I think we should also ponder a more natural means to carry it out.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
(For the sake of argument, so what if the atmosphere bleeds away after only a few million years?)
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: (For the sake of argument, so what if the atmosphere bleeds away after only a few million years?)
/me looks at his Sig... you know, Sol... i was only pissy at the seeming disrespect to the deceased...
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
If the force that bleeds away the atmosphere, also irradiates the surface- I guess the fact that Mars will return to the way it originally was in a few million years would indeed be of little consequence to all those that would contract cancer after a few months living on the new world.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
It would seem the terraforming project came to nought in any case. Even with the much less brute-forcish "Home Soil" technique, there would have been enough moisture for vegetation in less than a century; we see no vegetation on Mars in the 2370s.
It may be that Mars always got the short stick as far as colonization projects went. There'd be competition from interstellar colonies, within just as easy a reach and offering preexisting Class M environments. There'd be other uses for Mars, perhaps as a natural reserve or a source of iron and light metals for starship construction; such use would not benefit from terraforming, and continued cometary bombardment would probably be frowned upon in either case.
Heck, perhaps the Martian colonists gathered enough ill will through their Fundamental Declarations and whatnot to ensure that the planet would never get funding for anything constructive.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Good for you, Mr. Wetness.
A little googling reveals that radiation levels on the surface of Mars are more or less what you would get at that notorious cancer factory, the ISS. (Though, to be fair, I wouldn't want to spend my life on that, either.) ((Radiation levels in orbit are about 2.5 times higher than at the station, incidentally.))
At any rate, a thick atmosphere blocks out plenty of radiation on its own, and while this would rapidly degrade under such radation (rapidly on a geologic timescale) I don't see what the big deal is in the relatively short term. So Martians pile dirt up on top of their homes and make sure to wear plenty of sunscreen when they venture out.
[Having said all of that, why anyone would bother with something like terraforming when the galaxy is apparently thick with worlds that require little to no alteration at all is a good question.]
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Shakaar, go away and read Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy. Then come back and we'll discuss.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Just don't ask how the windmills work.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
The little things they scatter over the planet to thicken the atmosphere?
I *LOVE* those books.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
Lee, though I�m always open to good reading suggestions, I found being told to go away and read something to be rude.
I've read the reviews of the books- 200 years to transform a lifeless world into a new Earth is not "science faction". I had a problem with accomplishing it by the 24th century. The reviews state that they engineered plants and micro-organisms that could live on Mars to create "Green Mars" Martian soil lacks all nutrients needed for plant growth, and infact, the soil has oxidizing elements that would act to sterilize any bacteria or plant life that tried to take root. I see only VERY long-term plans to terraform Mars to be viable.
I think terraforming planets is still important in the Trek Universe, because often planets that support life tend to have life, and then there are issues of the planet already having a species claim it, or the life on it is still developing and the UFP doesn't want to alter its natural progress. That does bring us to an interesting prime directive question. If a menshara class world is found with hominids, or any other so quasi-developed species, does the Federation set down roots? If the world has a chimpanzee-like species, would they settle, or would they declare it off limits? I wonder what exactly the criteria are to settle a world.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shakaar: Lee, though I�m always open to good reading suggestions, I found being told to go away and read something to be rude.
That's just Lee. Careful, he bites.
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: Shakaar, go away and read Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy. Then come back and we'll discuss.
I think I read the first book of that series in school a few years back. Is that the one with the nanotube space elevator, and the taller mars people who engaged in incestuous [sp?] relationships? (the librarians up here don't do a very thorough job screening these books. The cousin fucking in The Chrysalids comes to mind. And the wild sex orgies and global domination of the Ford Motor co. from some other book whose title escapes me at the moment.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
*ponders* So perhaps that shouldn't be on my "must read" list? It's starting to sound like a Scooter Libby book.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Yeah, that crazy outsider Kim Stanley Robinson. Why aren't librarians protecting us from his sick filth? And his occasional violations of the second law of thermodynamics. Fortunately he's gone totally unrecognized by the genre's major awards.
Warning! While the previous paragraph appears to take one position, it is in fact, mysteriously, almost magically encoded such that it represents its opposite.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Topher, he's all of 35 now, and his granny is making him toothless with the chocolate easter bunnies, so the worst he can do is gum people.
Sol, I read that paragraph and thought 'sarcasm', then read the warning. Yep.
Shakaar, if you thought that was rude just wait till Gummy Lee gets warmed up to you.
Is that trilogy the one that goes in to the politics of Mars? I haven't read it yet, but may when I am older and grayer. Maybe tomorrow.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
"Eh? What's that? Speak up! How can you youngsters hear yourselves think over that racket you call music!"
I'll leave him alone for now. I wouldn't want to stifle his development, especially when he's learned to use actual paragraphs in this very thread! *chokes up* Our baby's all grown up. . . 8)
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ritten: Sol, I read that paragraph and thought 'sarcasm', then read the warning. Yep.
Thanks for clearing that up. We can rest easy now.
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: I'll leave him alone for now. I wouldn't want to stifle his development, especially when he's learned to use actual paragraphs in this very thread! *chokes up* Our baby's all grown up. . . 8)
Ya, soon he'll be jetting off to college, fulfilling his dream of being the first male to dress up as an Andorian pleasure slave at the star trek convention. Kids grow up so fast don't they? Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I read Red Mars, and I don't recall any Martian incest. In fact, I don't recall any Martians (except in the sense of "residents of Mars"; but they were human). But, yeah, there was a space elevator.
Of course, since I didn't think Red Mars was very good, I didn't read the other two. So I couldn't say if you're thinking of one of those.
I always assumed Kim Stanley Robinson was a woman. People really should be more careful about naming their children.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
GENERALLY - and I do say generally Kim = a guy, Kym = a girl.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Kim Bauer. Kim Griest. Kim Wilde? Or is it Kym Wilde?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Forget Kim, it's the poor woman whose middle name is Stanley that I'd worry about.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
It brings balance to a world of men with Maria as their second name.
And it's Kym Wilde. Twenty lashes for not knowing.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
My brother's middle name is Kerry. And yes, I know that can be a boy's name as well. Except that it plainly isn't.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Er. . . Isn't his first name Keith? And isn't your surname Kavanagh? Because that would mean. . .
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
No, his first name is Sean. I've got a younger brother called Kieran, but he's middle-name-less.
Also, Keith? Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
I think Red Mars was the title of the book. I got halfway through the second one (blue mars?) before I got bored with them. And do seem to remember martian (they were called martian because they were born on mars) incest being in there somewhere, one of the characters liked to make whoopie with her brother or something like that. I didn't think it was a very good book either.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
I known plenty of people named Kim, all girls except for one guy, and NONE of them spelled it Kym. I've never seen that spelling before at all.
B.J.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
If it's incest, then it's probably a Heinlein book you're thinking of. Dude had issues.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
I know 4 Kim's. Three of them are Kimberley, the other is just Kim. Two of them are male. So, I'm not sure what's up with that. I also knew a guy named Allison once..
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
quote:Originally posted by Da_bang80:
quote:Originally posted by Lee: Shakaar, go away and read Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy. Then come back and we'll discuss.
I think I read the first book of that series in school a few years back. Is that the one with the nanotube space elevator, and the taller mars people who engaged in incestuous [sp?] relationships? (the librarians up here don't do a very thorough job screening these books. The cousin fucking in The Chrysalids comes to mind. And the wild sex orgies and global domination of the Ford Motor co. from some other book whose title escapes me at the moment.
So, you think the librarians SHOULD screen your books?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Forget Kim, it's the poor woman whose middle name is Stanley that I'd worry about."
Well, I had figured it was a maiden name.
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
Well, for books intended for first year High Schoolers, ya, some of those books shouldn't be in school libraries. I stopped reading red mars cuz it was a little too graphic at the time, My english teacher actually made us stop reading the Chrysalids when the cousin fucking came up (she was a new teacher and wasn't used to the curriculum and she was a bit of a prude) she gave us all full marks for the test tho.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
And she didn't think it was a good idea to maybe read the book she was suppossed to be teaching? It would have taken her, what two days at most?
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
I dunno, I don't try to understand teacher logic, I just try to keep one ear and one eye open while the rest of me is snoozing. It's amazing how much time you can sleep in high school and still come away with an %80 average. In Biology class I never took a page of notes, just sat and half listened, For finals I just read the text book and got %94 percent. Same with Law, except my Law teacher was another whacko, someone put Acid in her coffee one day and she went on a pretty bad trip. Never was the same after that day. (and no, it wasn't me, although I would have if I got the chance, maybe I'll do that to my boss) Oh ya, another student tricked my com sci teacher into smoking a joint (again, wasn't me, if your wondering) and he spent the whole class laughing, then he took us out for donuts. Then there was Christian Ethics class, slept through every single period, ended up with a 40 something before finals, came out with a 92, guess i got the bonus question. There was some people there who worked like dogs to get thier 80 somethings... Man, high school was fun.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I feel sorry for teachers.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"I dunno, I don't try to understand teacher logic, I just try to keep one ear and one eye open while the rest of me is snoozing."
Is that why you don't even know that percent signs come after the numbers...?
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
Those were typos Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Typos, here, on this board, no, never.
Posted by HopefulNebula (Member # 1933) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: And she didn't think it was a good idea to maybe read the book she was suppossed to be teaching? It would have taken her, what two days at most?
I had a teacher in 8th grade who taught Frankenstein and A Midsummer Night's Dream without having read either. She used Cliffs Notes.
As far as I know she still teaches there because nobody else is willing to work for that school's wacko principal/administration.
As for terraforming in Trek... it at least follows with the rest of Trek science (that is: if it sounds good, it must be true.)
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
Way to go. I was going to dredge this little gem up in January. Thanks for ruining that.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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