This is topic Event horizions form around ALL FTL objects! in forum Starships & Technology at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://flare.solareclipse.net/ultimatebb.php/topic/6/23.html

Posted by JC2astro on :
 
Here's a theory. If light could travel through or bounce off of an FTL object, Relativity paradoxes form. Thus, what about an FTL object surrounded by an event horizion (I'm using this term loosely, it actually refers to the location, or horizion, where light cannot excape a body such as a black hole). Since light cannot excape, it can't bounce off, etcetra, the paradoxes such as the light-clock experiment don't occure. Therefore, an object in FTL travel MUST be surrounded by an event horizion.

If that is the case, would this even horizion act simular to those around black holes?

------------------
Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally


 


Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
Well, I'm not sure how you mean "would it act similarly". An event horizon is not a physical object. It is simply a location.

------------------
"If you hear only one song this year, there's something terribly wrong with you."
-They Might Be Giants, "Critic Intro"
 


Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
 
Like he said, he's using the term very loosely.

------------------
http://frankg.dgne.com/
"Speak softly, drive a Sherman tank." - TMBG
 


Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
*thinks*

*thinks harder*

I'll get back to you.

------------------
"According to myth, the earth was created in six days. Now watch out! Here comes Genesis. We'll do it for you in six minutes."
--
Dr. Leonard H. McCoy
 


Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
 
Warning: A spontaneous reply, I didn't consult a physics book:

The problem with all FTL objects is that their mass as well as their length and their time dilation will become imaginary (that is, a real figure multiplied with i, the square root of -1) according to 1/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2). An imaginary mass, length or time is not defined. This is what the paradox should be about. If, however, we postulate FTL travel is possible, then the imaginary values must make sense somehow, we only don't know so far, let alone know ii and what we are supposed to see of it.

The warp field in Trek solves the problem in that the warp bubble is some kind of separate universe in which exactly the same physical laws apply as outside, and no relativistic effects occur. That means, unless someone looks through a window, it is not possible to determine the ship is traveling at warp.

The border of the warp bubble (be it sharp or not) automatically transforms incoming or outgoing energy or matter to the according state inside or outside the bubble. Let's assume incoming light that moves at c outside, it will still move at c inside the bubble. The question is what the external observer will see. I think it is impossible to look inside the warp bubble, because it moves at v>c and is therefore apparently outside the laws of physics. I doubt that it's possible to see an imaginary dimension of an object that has an imaginary time.

Actually, the effects could be somewhat similar to an event horizon that swallows an astronaut, as observed from outside, whereas the astronaut himself doesn't notice it until he is torn apart.

------------------
"No, thanks. I've had enough. One more cup and I'll jump to warp." (Janeway, asked if she would like some coffee in "Once upon a Time")
www.uni-siegen.de/~ihe/bs/startrek/

 


Posted by JC2astro on :
 
Yes, but some unique phenonoma occure at the event horizion around a black hole. (note: I'm using the terminolgy, Ftl Object's Event Horizion = FOEH. if you come up with a better acronim, tell me )

1) Hawking Radiation. If there is Hawking Radiation emitted from a FOEH, then it must be either very weak or very strong. A miniture Black Hole will be white hot from Hawking Radiation. This would prove harmful for the FTL object if too bright.

2) Entropy. Around Black Holes, the size of the event horizion is porportional to the Black Hole's entropy. If this holds true for an FOEH, then an object returning to slower than light would have some problems with the second law and/or increased Hawking radiation emission (see above).

3) More later. Same Bat time, same Bat Forum.

------------------
Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally



 


Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
IIRC, Hawking radiation is the result of the spontaneous formation of a particle-antiparticle pair when one gets sucked into the black hole and the other doesn't. The free one decays (which doesn't happen under normal conditions because the pair would annihilate almost immediately) and becomes Hawking radiation. Now, whether or not this happens around a warp field depends upon, I would suppose, whether or not the field would tend to suck in the particles, or if they would be able to cross the "horizon" at all, or whatever.

------------------
"If you hear only one song this year, there's something terribly wrong with you."
-They Might Be Giants, "Critic Intro"
 


Posted by JC2astro on :
 
note: I'm not talking about warp fields, but any FTL object.

Well, the dynamics across the event horizion of a FTL object would be quite different. Since light cannot excape, any particle wandering in would be trapped, but the gravitational entering would be virtually nonexistant. To analyze the effects, let me re-iterate an experiment demostrating the basic flaws with modern physics.

Lets say we have two very small, very fine, and very close metal plates. Since there is more space on the outside (rest of the universe) than on the inside (between the plates), there are more virtual particle pair production on the outside. This causes (for reasons that excape me at the moment) a slight inward force on the plates in addition to gravitational attraction. The problem is that, according the the known laws of quantum mechanics, there is both an infinite number of particle-pair productions on either side of the plate system (inside and outside). Most theoritical physicists hope that the two infinities cancle out, but they can't find a way to!!! I think this is really funny, but...

Back to this and it's effects on FTL objects. later, though.

------------------
Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally



 


Posted by JC2astro on :
 
question: Would an antiparticle anniliate (spell?) an particle even if the particle was moving at .999999999999999c and the antiparticle was a 0c relative to the observer? The moving particle would have MUCH more mass than the regular one....

Or would light just be emitted? Just a thought. More on FTL later, after my placement exams....

------------------
Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally



 


Posted by Cargile (Member # 45) on :
 
Any mass moving near the speed of light exhibits black hole/sigularity properties.

------------------
"I'll try a roll."

Obscure SW:TPM quote


 


Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
 
There might be Hawking radiation emerging from an FTL object, assuming that one particle is out of sight or out of reach as soon as it enters the FTL bubble.
 
Posted by JC2astro on :
 
Yea, but my point is that for black holes of really small size, the amount of Hawking radiation is termendous. Would this be the same around FTL Event Horizions?

------------------
Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally



 


Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
How can you talk about FTL travel w/o a warp field/bubble of some sort? That's impossible.

As for the annihilation between the really fast particle and the dead stop antiparticle... I don't know. I've never understood the whole increasing mass thing. What is this excess mass made of? For example, if I suddenly accelerated to a good portion of the speed of light, and my mass increased, would I still look like me, only increased in size (not counting Fitzgerald-Lorentz contraction, of course), or would I be covered in some sort of weird particle stew?

------------------
"If you hear only one song this year, there's something terribly wrong with you."
-They Might Be Giants, "Critic Intro"
 


Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
 
*bludgeons TSN to death*

Warp is for wimps.

------------------
http://frankg.dgne.com/
"Speak softly, drive a Sherman tank." - TMBG
 


Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
I never got that either. There is a constant amount of matter-energy in the universe. If you travel near the speed of light, where does the extra mass come from? Of course, I don't think that they've ever prooven that your mass increases as you approach c, just theorized it.

*grumbles*

*hates relativity...*

*grumbles*

*autodynamics...*

Oh, and the particle-really-fast-antiparticle anhilation problem: it would seem that there would just be more energy released, as the particle-antiparticle pair would anhilate, leaving the kinetic energy of the antiparticle without anything to carry it, thus being dispersed as some form of radiation.

I'd never thought of the Hawking radiation! If the Enterprise is traveling around 1000 c, it's going to run into quite a few quantum fluctuations. At least some of those fluctuations should result in one particle being pulled into the warp field and the other left. Considering that quantum fluctuations are fairly common (pretty sure, but not completely; anybody got the approximate number of quantum fluctuations for a given amount of space written down somewhere?), this should create a good bit of Hawking radiation. Good way to track a ship a warp...
 


Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
Okay, I just realized that particles indisputably do cross the warp field barrier. Otherwise, the Bussard collectors wouldn't be worth jack.

------------------
"If you hear only one song this year, there's something terribly wrong with you."
-They Might Be Giants, "Critic Intro"
 


Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Well, an object gains relativistc mass, which isn't exactly the same thing as an object's rest mass. (Or invarient mass, a term I just learned. )

At any rate, I have a link which might be helpful.

Does mass change with velocity?

Essentially, it is better to think of an object gaining energy as it approaches C, rather than mass.

Or at least, that's the assumption I've been left with. It's still rather confusing. *lol*

------------------
"It's not my birthday, it's not today. It's not my birthday, so why do you lunge out at me?"
--
They Might Be Giants

 


Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
 
*agrees with Sol's suggestion and considers whether to drop Frank into hyperspace or subspace*
 
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
Hm... How about half-and-half...? :-)

------------------
Brain: "Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
Pinky: "I think so, Brain, but, if you get a long little doggie, wouldn't you just call it a 'dachshund'?"
 


Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
 
Half-and-half...
This could be the secret of the Warp 10 flight. But I'm not sure if Frank wants to evolve to a slimy worm.
 
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
I prefer skim milk in my M/ARA, personally...

*Suddenly has epiphony*

I've got it! The secret to warp 10 flight is to replace your dilithium crystals with Foldger's crystals!

Of course, then Voyager would be trapped in the Delta Q forever, as Janeway would just make coffee out of them. Seven could even rig up some wierd mugs which you could fill up directly from a tap in the warp core!

*Has mental picture of Janeway filling mug from intermix chamber, taking a sip, and exploding*

Hee hee.

[This message was edited by Omega on June 21, 1999.]
 




© 1999-2024 Charles Capps

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3