Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Your chance to sway another to your opinions.

This is topic Your chance to sway another to your opinions. in forum Starships & Technology at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.

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Posted by Sirmaniac on :

First, this is always one of those topics that people say, "But I've already argued and posted all of my thoughts over this, and we've argued it into the ground, and everyone's heard all of the arguments."

Well, I've never heard them--certainly none that swing away from what I think, but I always like to hear the other side.

Since this is likely to cause a huge argument (and I hope I am not going to catch heat on this request anyway), I would appreciate if opinions were sent to my E-mail address and not attached to this thread. I'm not going to respond to any of these E-mails, but would merely like to hear for myself.

Now, may I please hear from everyone who has an opinion on whether or not ships can be given names that were previously held by classes? In other words, given the existance of the Constitution-class, why can or cannot a new Galaxy-class starship be given the name U.S.S. Constitution?

Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :

Challenger class - USS Challenger, Galaxy class.

Straying into non-canon territory:
Hermes class - USS Hermes, Antares class.
Endeavo(u)r (sub-)class - USS Endeavour, Nebula class.

It's also possible that the USS Excelsior and USS Constellation mentioned in TNG and DS9 are not the class ships from the 2290s. Certainly the Constellation in Waltz was undertaking duties that an 80 year old ship of a class that has been stated to be outdated would not be suitable for.

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-->Identity Crisis<--

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

I don't think there's ever been an argument about this. New ships can certainly be named after previous class ships, as long as the new ship isn't a class ship itself, obviously.

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Dead End: "Who cares?"
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Posted by Lindsly on :

Full list-

1. Ahwahnee-Class unknown (NCC-2048), Class unknown (NCC-71620), Cheyenne (NCC-73620)
2. Bellerephon-Nebula (NCC-62048), Intrepid (NCC-74705)
3. Challenger-Unknown Class (NCC-2032), Galaxy (NCC-71099)
4. Constellation-Constitution (NCC-1017), Constellation (NX-1974)
5. Defiant-Constitution (NCC-1764), Defiant (NX-74205)
6. Enterprise-Constitution (NCC-1701), Constitution (NCC-1701-A), Excelsior (NCC-1701-B), Ambassador (NCC-1701-C), Galaxy (NCC-1701-D), Sovereign (NCC-1701-E)
7. Essex-Daedalus (NCC-173), Constitution (NCC-1697)
8. Excalibur-Constitution (NCC-1664), Ambassador (NCC-26517)
9. Exeter-Constitution (NCC-1672), Ambassador (NCC-26531)
10. Farrugut-Constitution (NCC-1647), Nebula (NCC-60597), Unknown Class
11. Grissom-Oberth (NCC-638), Excelsior (NCC-42857), Unknown Class-Galaxy?
12. Hood-Constitution (NCC-1703), Excelsior (NCC-42296)
13. Intrepid-Constitution (NCC-1631), Excelsior (NCC-38907), Intrepid
14. Lexington-Constitution (NCC-1709), Excelsior (NCC-14427), Nebula (NCC-61832)
15. Magellan-Constellation (NCC-3069), Galaxy
16. Prometheus-Prometheus (NX-59650), Nebula (NCC-71201)
17. Saratoga-Miranda (NCC-1937), Miranda (NCC-31911), Unknown Class
18. Valiant-Unknown Class (NCC-1223), Oberth (NCC-20000), Defiant (NCC-74210)
19. Yorktown-Constitution (NCC-1717), Unknown Class, Zodiac (NCC-61137)

So, the answer to your question is-YES

Furthermore, the name Constitution could have been used multiple times.

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Er, Lindsly, he was talking about class ships, not all ships.

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http://frankg.dgne.com/
Motormaster: "Megatron's in trouble!"
Dead End: "Who cares?"
Wildrider: "It looks like Starscream's defeated him!"
Dead End: "So?"

Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

1) There is no Galaxy class Grissom. The Excelsior class Grissom was destroyed about 2 months ago (sort of)

2) There is no Oberth class USS Valiant

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"The one, the only, THE 359!"

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

I can't think of any logical reason that a class name can't be reused on an individual ship. Or, in other words, any ship name can be reused, whether it is the name of a class or not. The only thing is that you cannot have two classes w/ the same name. That would get too confusing...

"Captain, ship approaching. Galaxy-class."

"Oh, good. They'll have plenty of room to evacuate us."

"Erm... No. I meant Galaxy-class runabout..."

"Damn. Why would they use the same name for two classes?!"

See? :-)

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Posted by Lindsly on :

I do not except the USS Grissom in "Field of Fire" as an Excelsior Class Ship. If the reference was to 1250 troops and crew, yes, I would believe the ship was Excelsior. The reference was specific to crew. As for the USS Valiant, I saw an episode of "Movie Magic" on the Discovery Channel about five years ago which discussed the special effects of Star Trek. The producers had gone to ILM. The VFX technicians at ILM were saying how the warp engines of a Federation starship had to be removed from the starship hull to preserve warp symmetry. The model used was the USS Valiant (NCC-20000). When I see the episode and put the vidcaps in or I find a way to get in touch with ILM, I will validate what I am saying.

Posted by Sirmaniac on :

I've heard more than one person go on at length about how Starfleet isn't supposed to use a previous class name ever again. At length they go on, yet they never produce any evidence.

When Geordi's Challenger was mentioned, there were more than one people around who seemed to have some problem with the fact that Challenger was used when it was already used to identify a class of ship, and all I could ever think was "Proof! Give me proof. Why can't the name be used? Some reason other than how it just seems weird. Blackholes seem weird. Rule out weird, and most things don't exist. Hell, I'm weird. The word weird is weird; it should be 'wierd,' but someone in charge of spelling didn't notice (Don't go on about the printing press; I know, I'm kidding.)."

At least everyone here agrees so far. I've always refused to believe Starfleet retires a name every time it's used to identify a class; it just seems like a waste of names, and there would be no practical reason for it as far as I can see.

Posted by CaptSershek on :

Sirmaniac: I believe there is a tradition of honoring the class of which the ship is named, but your logic is sound in that wasting a good name is quite bad. Understood that the Galaxy Class Challenger was a ship in an alternate future that may or may not exist, so that's up in the air.

Lindaly: I am impressed with your eagle eyes, then again ,you might have a tv that is light years better than mine. Anyway, if one could find out what episode the Oberth Class Valiant was used, (I'm thinking Emmisary because they showed an Oberth there, then again it could be the Bonestell, not sure) I will add it into my own database.

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Remember when we used to be explorers? - Capt. Jean-Luc Picard - Star Trek Insurrection

Posted by Lindsly on :

Capt Shershek
My thinking is this-
The ST: TNG Companion and the Art of Star Trek say the following models were in the "The Best of Both Worlds" 2-
USS Ahwahnee (NCC-73620)
USS Buran (NCC-57580)
USS Chekhov (NCC-53702)
USS Firebrand (NCC-68723)
Kotoi (NCC-67016/07)
USS Kyushu (NCC-65491)
USS Melbourne (NCC-62043)
USS Princeton (NCC-58904)
USS Tolstoy (NCC-62095)
Based on this list, I believe that the USS Bonestell was not in that episode. The USS Bonestell I believe was in the episode "Emissary".As for the USS Valiant, I believe that this Oberth Class starship was in the movie Generations. Reason-the model was at the ILM shop and ILM did the majority of the special effects for the movies.

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

Only six ships were visible in the "Emissary" battle scenes:
Miranda - Saratoga
Excelsior - Melbourne
Ambassador - Yamaguchi
Nebula - Bellerophon (This would be the correct spelling)
Bonestell - Oberth (seen floating through the window in Jennifer Sisko's room)
Another one (Apollo?) - Gage(?) or anything else (saucer above the abandoned Saratoga)

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Posted by Sirmaniac on :

Excellent Captain Sershek, an alternative view point is what I am looking for. Why do you believe this fact is what I want to know? I do want to know what this might be based on; a reference in an episode? Current world navies? fanfic? FASA? A Technical Manual? A friend's opinion?

I'm almost looking for a history from beginning to end for this viewpoint, though obviously such a history would be difficult to compile, but I was just wondering where it was conceived.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

I don't think there is any real reason for it. It just makes sense.

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"I fart in your general direction!"
-John Cleese, Monty Python and the Holy Grail

Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

Regarding the Galaxy class Grissom, the bio screen for Lt. Chu'lak says he served on the Grissom since 2365. BUT, the USS Grissom, Excelsior class, was seen in 2367 I believe (I'm gusses, it should be close to that). Therefore, the Grissom carrying 1250 troops was the same Excelsior

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"The one, the only, THE 359!"