Flare Sci-Fi Forums: SWDAO: Challenger, Springfield, Whorfin class ships

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Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

The USS Challenger NCC-2032, USS Korolev NCC-2014, USS Springfield NCC-1963, and USS Whorfin NCC-1024 were listed on displays in "Star Trek: The Undiscovered Country". It is a common suggestion that these three ships are the class ships of Challenger, Springfield and Whorfin class, respectively.

Challenger: The Challenger class USS Buran NCC-57580 at Wolf 359 is supposed to be a modified Constitution class with nacelles directly attached to the saucer rear end. The appearance of Constitution engineering hull debris in TNG: "Best of Both Worlds" seems to confirm this. The registries of all three known ships, however, are in the 57xxx range. So the design is probably much newer than the old USS Challenger, unless a complicated theory is created to explain the use of a very old design for ships with new numbers.

Springfield: There is no design for this class, although the class was present at Wolf 359, so it could be any of the study models for the Excelsior or the Phase II Enterprise, for instance, which were all used for the graveyard scenes. The registries are the only evidence, and they suggest the ship from the 2280's is probably not the class ship for the USS Chekov with 53xxx registry.

Korolev. Basically the same argument (registry too high) as for the Springfield, except that there is almost definitely no studio model.

Whorfin: The two transport ships from "Star Trek: Generations" are Whorfin class ships. Since they are contemporary to the USS Whorfin featured a few years before in the real and Trek timeline, this is probably the class ship. Otherwise the class ship must have been decommissioned or destroyed before its time, which is (hopefully) not the normal case, or the Whorfin class must be brand new at the time of ST:G, which is improbable because of the diverging registries. An objection to this theory is that, the two ships from ST:G being civilian, Starfleet does not necessarily have a Whorfin class [link to class names civilian vs. SF].

*Frank's and Tthe359's arguments below included*

[This message was edited by Bernd on June 08, 1999.]

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

I agree completely.

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Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Er...well, the transports in Generations weren't Starfleet, though. There's no reason to believe that Starfleet even has a Whorfin-class.

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Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

Your missing 1 more possible class ship, USS Korolev NCC-2014

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Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

*comments included above*

Posted by Trinculo on :

High Registry determines a ship class is newer is wrong.

There are at present at least two ship classes from the 2280's which have very high registries-the Oberth and the Excelsior. The Oberth Class has the NCC-50331 USS Biko, NCC-53847 USS Pegasus, and the NCC-53911 USS Tsiolkovsky. The Excelsior Class has NCC-50446 USS Crazy Horse and NCC-62043 USS Melbourne. Considering that these two classes from the same decade have high registries, there could be other classes from the same decade that have high registries.

My view on the four classes mentioned-
Structural components indicate that at least two are from the 2280's-the Challenger and the Springfield. I do not know about the Korolev.
As for the Whorfin, there is a civilian Whorfin Class. And there could be a civilian SS Whorfin and a Starfleet USS Whorfin. There is no law or rule which states that if a name is used by one agency-civilian, Starfleet-then the other agency-civilian, Starfleet-cann't use the name.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

There are Excelsior and Oberth class vessels with five digit registries because those ships were still being built well into the 24th century.

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Trinculo: You're right about the Oberths and Exceliors, but the point is that we've only seen Challenger and Springfield registries that are relatively high. The Obs and Exes we've seen spanning a large range...

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"I ran into Charlie Fogg.
He blacked my eye, and he kicked my dog.
My dog turned to me, and he said,
'Let's head back to Tennessee, Jed.'"
-The Grateful Dead, "Tennessee Jed"

Posted by Trinculo on :

The Challenger and Springfield Classes could still be constructed in the 24th Century. There is nothing in the canonical sources that argues against this. Every argument that can be made against the Challenger and Springfield Classes can be refuted by the evidence of the Excelsior and Oberth Classes. And vice versa.

Posted by Trinculo on :

TSN:
I am going by structural features-what are the nacelles supposed to look like? what is the saucer like? what is the secondary hull like? The structure of a ship dates a class' construction and design to a particular era.

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

Trinculo: Do you know what the Springfield class is supposed to look like?

My point about the Springfield and Korolev class is that it is more probable the class ship were not operational as early as in the 2280's. There could have been two or three design generations (and Springfields and Korolevs) in the 75 years until Wolf 359. I'm not so sure about the Challenger, because the Constitution-like design is pending.

One more argument is that is's improbable that three class ships have registries in the same narrow range and are listed on a display of operational ships.

Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :

The USS Whorfin is from the Mission Assignment okudagram from ST VI. Hence it has a mission assigned to it. If we can find out what that mission is we may be able to decide whether it belongs to the same class as the (civilian but Federation) Whorfin class transports in ST VII.

If the mission is at odds with the ship being a transport then the most likely explanation is that the Whorfin class is entirely civilian and unrelated to the USS Whorfin.

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-->Identity Crisis<--

Posted by Trinculo on :

The best source, and only source of information, on the ships in ST VI comes from the Star Trek Concordance by Bjo Trimble.

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

From the Concordance:

"Whorfin, NCC-1024: A deep space exploration ship seen on a mission assignment listing, it is on neutral zone patrol."

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"Let's get those missiles ready to destroy the universe!" - TMBG

Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :

Almost certainly a different class than.

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-->Identity Crisis<--

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Hm... Do we know that the Lakul and Robert Fox were meant to be transports? If the Whorfin-class is a deep-space ship, it's possible they happaened to be the closest ships to El-Auria (?) at the time of the evacuation. The Galaxy class is capable of evacuating people, but you wouldn't call it a transport.

I'm not saying I necessarily believe this. If Generations says the two ships were specifically transports, I'll go w/ that. I'm just trying to present an alternative...

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"I ran into Charlie Fogg.
He blacked my eye, and he kicked my dog.
My dog turned to me, and he said,
'Let's head back to Tennessee, Jed.'"
-The Grateful Dead, "Tennessee Jed"

Posted by Trinculo on :

I believe they are transports.

What is known-
the Whorfin Class ships are rated as Warp 4 capable ships
the Whorfin Class ships can carry up to 250 people
the Whorfin Class ships are registered as Ktarian ships (NFT)
Source: Star Trek: The Next Generation Companion

For me, the USS Whorfin is a Starfleet ship that is not a class ship

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Those ships couldn't have been near El-Auria, considering that the planet is quite a long way away from Federation space.

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"Gone savage for teenagers with automatic weapons and boundless love."
--
Soul Coughing

Posted by Trinculo on :

The ships were three light years away from the Sol System.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Well, if the ships never went near El-Auria, how did all the El-Aurians get onboard?

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"I ran into Charlie Fogg.
He blacked my eye, and he kicked my dog.
My dog turned to me, and he said,
'Let's head back to Tennessee, Jed.'"
-The Grateful Dead, "Tennessee Jed"

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Does the fact that the refugees were El-Aurian mean they had to have been coming from El-Auria? Considering the planet was assimilated by the Borg, and Guinan suggested that the only survivors were those who were off the planet at the time, I find that unlikely.

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"Gone savage for teenagers with automatic weapons and boundless love."
--
Soul Coughing

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Hm... Uh... Mm... Oh, shush. :-)

------------------
"I ran into Charlie Fogg.
He blacked my eye, and he kicked my dog.
My dog turned to me, and he said,
'Let's head back to Tennessee, Jed.'"
-The Grateful Dead, "Tennessee Jed"

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

Making the refugees El-Aurians was a major flaw of the film, and served obviously for the sole purpose to dedicate some scenes to Guinan, while Soran could have been any other race. Considering the El-Aurians were being assimilated at the time of the movie, they would have been far away from Federation territory, and it's quite unlikely that Federation ships, let alone transports, were near their planet. Maybe the refugees were picked up by Federation long-range explorers and later transferred to the transport ship. More probably they had an advanced starship themselves, but had to abandon it in Federation territory.

If the Whorfin NCC-1024 is a deep-space explorer, this makes it more probable it's not the Whorfin class ship, however, I wonder why they didn't list a class for this ship.

Posted by Trinculo on :

Bernd:
Bjo Trimble decided not to include class information for the ships she listed in the Concordance. The ships have names, registries, and a brief history.

Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :

I thought the El-Aurians were from the Delta Quadrant, since at the time the Borg were in the Delta Quadrant. Since we know how long it takes to get from the Delta Quadrant to the Alpha Quadrant this might mean that the El-Aurians have very advanced warp technology. Afterall, Guinan was on Earth in the 19th century from 1893 - ? Interestly enough, in "Booby Trap" (I think) Guinan mentions she likes bald men cause a bald man helped her when she was hurt. Captain Picard? "Times Arrow" seems to suggest that it was in fact Picard who helped her out...nice how that worked out 2 years later.

Back to the topic at hand. Guinan was on Earth then left only to head back during the events of Generations. I always thought she was on Earth because of the Borg, but if the Borg assimilated El-Auria after "Times Arrow" and she and other El-Aurians were coming to Earth because of the Borg in the 23rd century instead of 19th century, then why was she on Earth in the first place?

My guess is that during our 19th century and possibly eariler the El-Aurians were exploring space far before humans did. Using their advanced warp technology they could of been exploring most the Delta, Beta, and Alpha quadrants and nobody knew it. And that's why they might of been targeted by the Borg, for their advanced technology. The El-Aurian's might of even invented trans-warp which explains how they ventured so far into space, and how the Borg got trans-warp technology too. Since the Borg don't develop their own tech, they assimilate it from other races.

Hobbes
9906.13

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[This message was edited by Hobbes on June 13, 1999.]