------------------
Got Trek?
Federation Starship Datalink

Boris

------------------
"Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."

---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide

Jem'Hadar Spacecraft (pg. 221)

Battle cruiser: 136 mm
Attack ship: 10 mm

Klingon Spacecraft (pg. 246)

Negh'Var: 173 mm
Vor'cha: 130 mm
K't'inga: 58 mm
D7: 61 mm
B'Rel: 29 mm

Romulan Spacecraft (pg. 418)

Bird of Prey: 54 mm
Battle cruiser: 88 mm
Scout: 36 mm

Warbird Comparison (pg. 418)

Battle cruiser: 35 mm
D'Deridex: 186 mm

Big Ship Silhouettes (pg. 580)

Kazon: 35 mm
D'Deridex: 23 mm
Negh'Var (AGT version): 15 mm
Jem'Hadar battle cruiser: 13 mm

Ships of the Galaxy (pg. 581)

Vor'cha: 113 mm
D'Kora: 101 mm
Galor: 88 mm
Karemma ship: 86 mm
K't'inga: 83 mm
D7: 82 mm
Cardie freighter: 60 mm
Rom BoP: 47 mm
K'Vort: 37 mm
Bajoran assault vessel: 33 mm
Rom scout: 24 mm
Vulcan shuttle: 19 mm
Vulcan survey ship: 18 mm
Jem'Hadar attack ship: 16 mm

For completeness, here is also the...

Federation Starships (pg. 578-579)

Sovereign: 172 mm
Galaxy: 149 mm
Ambassador: 131 mm
Excelsior I: 119 m
Akira: 117 mm
Nebula: 102 mm
Intrepid: 92 mm
Norway: 83 mm
Constitution II: 80 mm
Steamrunner: 79 mm
Constitution I: 74 mm
Miranda III: 64 mm
Miranda I: 63 mm (?)
Olympic: 62 mm
Constellation: 60 mm
Saber: 43 mm
Defiant: 44 mm
Oberth: 34 mm
Daedalus: 27 mm
DY-100: 29 mm
Valiant: 24 mm
Saturn V: 27 mm
Phoenix: 7 mm

Whew... again, I may have gotten off by a millimeter on one or two of them, but I'm pretty sure that covers it all!

------------------
-=Ryan McReynolds=-

[This message has been edited by Ryan McReynolds (edited July 05, 1999).]
 

------------------
"The past, the present and the future, they exist as one, they breathe together." (Annorax, VOY: "The Year of Hell")
Ex Astris Scientia
 

B'Rel: 360' (110 m)
Vor'cha: 1581' (482 m)
D'Deridex: 4400' (1341 m)
Galor/Keldon: 1587' (484 m)
Terok Nor: 3600' (1097 m)
Son'a battle cruiser: 2320' (707 m)
Son'a flagship: 1160' (354 m)
Son'a science vessel: 5000' (1524 m)
D'Kora: 1200' (576 m)
Merchantman: 220' (67 m)

------------------
-=Ryan McReynolds=-

------------------
"Diplomacy is the art of Internationalising an issue to your advantage"

99% the figures in the DS9TM ship section were obtained from these exact charts. There is the 511m Excelsior when measured against the 642m Galaxy, the Akira was probably done in reference to the 170m Defiant. The alien ships were measured in reference to a 481.32m Vor'cha (Rick's design, the handiest length available) - unfortunately, the Vor'cha and the Galor together should be bigger compared to the rest. (The Galor is only what, 200-something meters long when compared to the rest?).

That's why we obtain such impossible figures for the B'Rel Bird-of-Prey and the Klingon Battlecruiser in the DS9TM, and I suspect all the Bajoran figures in that book are invalid as well. Try it, you'll get numbers within a meter of the DS9TM figures.

Boris

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited July 05, 1999).]
 

------------------
-=Ryan McReynolds=-

In the meantime, here's the second draft of the list. It's still weak conceptually in some parts; I really need to find out which ships to use for scaling in that awfully inconsistent chart at the end of the book.

Boris

------------------
"Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."

---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide

Then I discovered that the Vor'Cha and the Romulan scout are way off compared to the rest, so I left those out. Unfortunately, a 481.32m Vor'Cha is exactly what was used to scale the rest of the chart for the DS9TM; that's why you have such figures for the BoP and the K't'inga. I rather used the majority, and scaled the Bajoran Vessels and the Freighter again to what I hope are more reasonable sizes.

I feel very proud, since I've managed to accomplish this in only nine posts. However, it would still be great if you could read over the list, especially the comments, and provide some feedback. After we've cleared this part, then I'll continue and scale all the miscellaneous ships from the Fact Files on Bernd's site. Should be an interesting chart at the end.

Here it is: The Interactive Alien Ship List

Boris

------------------
"Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."

---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide

Boris: Sorry, I couldn't resist making the BoP 110m. Maybe I could do another version with 60m. I hope you understand my reason not to include the big Kazon ship

------------------
"The past, the present and the future, they exist as one, they breathe together." (Annorax, VOY: "The Year of Hell")
Ex Astris Scientia
 

As I said to Ryan, now is the time to have a look at it and see what doesn't feel right, then dig out conclusive VFX evidence to support it. Once we have the VFX, we compared it to deck spacing, and if it's not too ridiculous, we adopt the VFX. Otherwise we keep these lengths. That would be my suggestion of the procedure.

Boris

------------------
"Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."

---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide

1) "Today is a good day to die". Gowron turns off the screen, and for a moment we see the Negh'Var head-on with a couple of Vor'chas in the background. The width of the Vor'cha closest to the viewer (yet behind the Negh'Var) is slightly less than the width of the Negh'Var.

2) Just before Martok and Gowron begin their untranslated Klingon discussion, there is a not-as-conclusive Negh'Var+Vor'cha combination, which indicates that the width of the Vor'cha is close to that of the Negh'Var.

3) After the discussion is finished, there is a shot of the Negh'Var firing green torpedoes/disruptor bolts, with two Vor'chas in the background. The Negh'Var is clearly no more than twice as wide as the Vor'cha behind it.

Conclusion: Negh'Var has a definite upper limit of 977m in this episode, this based on the generous assumption that it is twice as wide as a Vor'cha. The actual figure is probably 3/4ths or 1/2 of this value. I don't expect anyone to take this too seriously, however, until we have vidcaps to measure (Frank?)

Boris

------------------
"Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."

---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide

Maybe they inserted the windows afterwards, though.

I think in WotW the VFX people didn't care much about starship sizes. I should have to watch it again and more closely, but I remember the ships were all about the same size (for instance K't'ingas and Vor'chas).
 

Are we talking about this point?

If so, then I also get a size of 1000m using 10' decks. The windows aren't visible on Doug Drexler's drawing, I don't know about the miniature. If you take a look at deck spacing in the DS9TM schematic, it appears as though only five rows were intended to be present in the top half of the marked area. The alternate universe Negh'Var might be a modification/VFX alteration of the existing model, or Doug Drexler's schematics are incorrect. I'm gonna take a look at the Olympic comparisons in AGT now.

Boris

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited July 07, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited July 07, 1999).]
 

This image from the Star Trek: 30 Years publication doesn't show any windows. I have the original size photo, and couldn't see any windows, either. http://www.users.csbsju.edu/~rsorense/modelcitizen/trekships/klingons/neghvarkeel.jpg

Look at the curvature at the hull-to-wing transition. Maybe there are some faint windows: http://www.users.csbsju.edu/~rsorense/modelcitizen/trekships/klingons/modvor1.jpg

This is an effect shot with lighted windows (real or computer generated?): http://www.users.csbsju.edu/~rsorense/modelcitizen/trekships/klingons/negh-var-bow.jpg

There are a few more pics on this page: http://www.users.csbsju.edu/~rsorense/modelcitizen/trekships/klingons/index.html

A few details in Doug Drexler's drawing look different than the model, and maybe he didn't draw windows because he didn't see any.

I would like to see screencaps from WotW. They seem to be the only reliable reference for "our" Negh'Var.
 

• The pre-conversation crowd


• The post-conversation Negh'Var+two Vor'chas

I also found two nice images from "All Good Things", which clearly suggest that this particular version of the Negh'Var is not *that* much bigger than an Olympic:

• Firing at Pasteur


• Another shot

The Pasteur averages at 244m (range: 220-269m) in my spreadsheet, when compared to the known sizes of Oberth, Intrepid, Const II, Miranda, Const I, Excelsior, Sovereign, Galaxy and Nebula. The second AGT picture seems to indicate that the Negh'Var is pretty close to twice the width of the Pasteur. That's an overall length of 336m. I would guess it could be higher than this given the perspective, but probably not 1,100m.

As for the windows, I think I can see some on the pics you posted, but it is very unlikely that the model contains 14 rows in the "Shattered Mirror" position. Judging by the concentration and the blurring, I would not be so sure that this can be natural lighting, but I could be wrong. There are some additional AGT Negh'Var pictures in the Negh'Var section of Pedro's ship-o-rama site, but nothing too conclusive with regard to the windows.

Boris

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited July 08, 1999).]
 

And, as for the Olympic, I don't think the encyclopedia is right about it. Assuming the deck height is somewhere between 12 and 13 feet, it is somewhere from 312 to 338m long. Your figure give a deck height of less than 10', which seems a bit low for a hospital ship like the Pasteur.

------------------
"Keep honking: I'm reloading."
-bumber sticker on a friend's truck
 

Boris

------------------
"Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."

---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide