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Interactive Alien Ship Size Chart (WARNING: HIGHLY VOLATILE MATERIAL)
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<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="95%" align="center"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"><td> <table border="0" width="100%" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"> <td colspan="2" align="left"> <font size="3" color="#FFFFFF" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>T O P I C ��� R E V I E W</b> </font></td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jim Phelps</b> <br /><small>Member # 102</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,6,4,6,40,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 04, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">06:40 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> This is just an attempt to finalize matters with regard to alien ship sizes, seeing that the Starfleet lists are pretty much in agreement already. What I'd need to do in order to complete this is measure the Klingon Ship Comparison Chart and the Jem'Hadar Ship Comparison Chart from the Encyc(II) (the ones in the specific entries, not the big ones at the end of the book). <P><BR>If somebody could scan these in, that would be great. If somebody else can do the big ones at the end, that would be absolutely wonderful. As I say on my page, those charts have historically been the closest to the intended sizes. Ok, enough talking, here's the page:<P><p align="center"><a href="http://ms.anet.cz/~ibctel/alienshipsize.htm">The Interactive Alien Ship Size List</a></p><P>Boris<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Boris (edited July 04, 1999).] <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Hobbes</b> <br /><small>Member # 138</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,6,4,12,58,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 04, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">12:58 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> What about the Kazon Predator ship? Shown in the enc. it is larger than the Romulan warbird.<P>Hobbes<BR>9907.4<BR><center><P>------------------<BR>Got Trek?<BR><A HREF="http://www.TheFSD.com" TARGET=_blank>Federation Starship Datalink</A><P><BR> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jim Phelps</b> <br /><small>Member # 102</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,6,4,14,0,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 04, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">02:00 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Don't have the Encyc(II) charts as I said, otherwise I'd have measured out and put in all the other aliens as well. It's gonna be a big list, especially once we include the freighters and the rest.<P>Boris<P>------------------<BR>"Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."<p>---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide<p> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Ryan McReynolds</b> <br /><small>Member # 28</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,6,5,3,50,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 05, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">03:50 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Rather than try to make estimates, I'm just gonna give you raw measurements in millimeters so that you can compare and contrast. I'm hesitant to scan my book, at the risk of deforming it beyond recognition in the process... here we go. Keep in mind each chart is at a different scale relative to the others. Also, if I'm off by a millimeter here or there, let me apologize in advance!<P><B>Jem'Hadar Spacecraft (pg. 221)</B><P>Battle cruiser: 136 mm<BR>Attack ship: 10 mm<P><B>Klingon Spacecraft (pg. 246)</B><P>Negh'Var: 173 mm<BR>Vor'cha: 130 mm<BR>K't'inga: 58 mm<BR>D7: 61 mm<BR>B'Rel: 29 mm<P><B>Romulan Spacecraft (pg. 418)</B><P>Bird of Prey: 54 mm<BR>Battle cruiser: 88 mm<BR>Scout: 36 mm<P><B>Warbird Comparison (pg. 418)</B><P>Battle cruiser: 35 mm<BR>D'Deridex: 186 mm<P><B>Big Ship Silhouettes (pg. 580)</B><P>Kazon: 35 mm<BR>D'Deridex: 23 mm<BR>Negh'Var (AGT version): 15 mm<BR>Jem'Hadar battle cruiser: 13 mm<P><B>Ships of the Galaxy (pg. 581)</B><P>Vor'cha: 113 mm<BR>D'Kora: 101 mm<BR>Galor: 88 mm<BR>Karemma ship: 86 mm<BR>K't'inga: 83 mm<BR>D7: 82 mm<BR>Cardie freighter: 60 mm<BR>Rom BoP: 47 mm<BR>K'Vort: 37 mm<BR>Bajoran assault vessel: 33 mm<BR>Rom scout: 24 mm<BR>Vulcan shuttle: 19 mm<BR>Vulcan survey ship: 18 mm<BR>Jem'Hadar attack ship: 16 mm<P>For completeness, here is also the...<P><B>Federation Starships (pg. 578-579)</B><P>Sovereign: 172 mm<BR>Galaxy: 149 mm<BR>Ambassador: 131 mm<BR>Excelsior I: 119 m<BR>Akira: 117 mm<BR>Nebula: 102 mm<BR>Intrepid: 92 mm<BR>Norway: 83 mm<BR>Constitution II: 80 mm<BR>Steamrunner: 79 mm<BR>Constitution I: 74 mm<BR>Miranda III: 64 mm<BR>Miranda I: 63 mm (?)<BR>Olympic: 62 mm<BR>Constellation: 60 mm<BR>Saber: 43 mm<BR>Defiant: 44 mm<BR>Oberth: 34 mm<BR>Daedalus: 27 mm<BR>DY-100: 29 mm<BR>Valiant: 24 mm<BR>Saturn V: 27 mm<BR>Phoenix: 7 mm<P>Whew... again, I may have gotten off by a millimeter on one or two of them, but I'm pretty sure that covers it all!<P>------------------<BR>-=Ryan McReynolds=-<P><p>[This message has been edited by Ryan McReynolds (edited July 05, 1999).] <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Bernd</b> <br /><small>Member # 6</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,6,5,5,16,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 05, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">05:16 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Nice work. I have currently a lot do, but an alien ship comparison chart based on your figures would be fine. I'll see what I can do.<P>------------------<BR>"The past, the present and the future, they exist as one, they breathe together." (Annorax, VOY: "The Year of Hell")<BR><A HREF="http://www.uni-siegen.de/~ihe/bs/startrek/" TARGET=_blank>Ex Astris Scientia</A> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Ryan McReynolds</b> <br /><small>Member # 28</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,6,5,6,11,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 05, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">06:11 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Just for the record, these are all of the confirmed alien design lengths I have...<P>B'Rel: 360' (110 m)<BR>Vor'cha: 1581' (482 m)<BR>D'Deridex: 4400' (1341 m)<BR>Galor/Keldon: 1587' (484 m)<BR>Terok Nor: 3600' (1097 m)<BR>Son'a battle cruiser: 2320' (707 m)<BR>Son'a flagship: 1160' (354 m)<BR>Son'a science vessel: 5000' (1524 m)<BR>D'Kora: 1200' (576 m)<BR>Merchantman: 220' (67 m)<P>------------------<BR>-=Ryan McReynolds=-<P> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Curry Monster</b> <br /><small>Member # 12</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,6,5,8,55,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 05, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">08:55 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I may try my hand @ building a similar chart from Ryans figures. All related info should (imho) be based on the assumption that the Galaxy is 642.5, and all ships scaled to that.<P><P>------------------<BR>"Diplomacy is the art of Internationalising an issue to your advantage"<P><BR> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jim Phelps</b> <br /><small>Member # 102</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,6,5,9,52,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 05, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:52 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Wow, Ryan, I hope you didn't sprain something doing all those measurements (I don't know what I'd do without that guy <IMG SRC="http://flare.solareclipse.net/wink.gif">. Thanks; the finalized lengths for the main races are coming up later in the day. So far I discovered one important thing:<P>99% the figures in the DS9TM ship section were obtained from these exact charts. There is the 511m Excelsior when measured against the 642m Galaxy, the Akira was probably done in reference to the 170m Defiant. The alien ships were measured in reference to a 481.32m Vor'cha (Rick's design, the handiest length available) - unfortunately, the Vor'cha and the Galor together should be bigger compared to the rest. (The Galor is only what, 200-something meters long when compared to the rest?).<P>That's why we obtain such impossible figures for the B'Rel Bird-of-Prey and the Klingon Battlecruiser in the DS9TM, and I suspect all the Bajoran figures in that book are invalid as well. Try it, you'll get numbers within a meter of the DS9TM figures.<P>Boris<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Boris (edited July 05, 1999).] <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Ryan McReynolds</b> <br /><small>Member # 28</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,6,5,15,1,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 05, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">03:01 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I think this is definitely a case where we stick with designer's intention for those that are known, and then work with external structures and visible "landmarks" to estimate the rest; windows, etc. One thing that I believe is incorrect is the scaling of the D7 larger than the K't'inga. Sure, it's possible, but I think it sorta goes against the intention that the K't'inga is to the D7 as the Constitution Mk II is to the Constitution Mk I. Then again, I haven't really looked too hard at them to compare features...<P>------------------<BR>-=Ryan McReynolds=-<P> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jim Phelps</b> <br /><small>Member # 102</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,6,5,16,49,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 05, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">04:49 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> The problem, however, is that most alien ships don't have windows or scaleable structures. The Battlecruiser looks like it has two visible rows on that front yellow surface, and the Negh'Var has a couple as well. We'll need sufficiently large scans to estimate those.<P>In the meantime, here's the <a href="http://ms.anet.cz/~ibctel/alienshipsize.htm">second draft</a> of the list. It's still weak conceptually in some parts; I really need to find out which ships to use for scaling in that awfully inconsistent chart at the end of the book.<P>Boris<P>------------------<BR>"Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."<p>---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide<p> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jim Phelps</b> <br /><small>Member # 102</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,6,6,12,26,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 06, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">12:26 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Ok, I've added all the major races, including the Borg. The list represents my best attempt at analyzing the Ships of the Galaxy chart in the Encyclopedia; what I did was, I made an Excel spreadsheet that would compare the size of the vessel in question to the 'safe' ships: Vor'Cha, D7, Klingon BoP, Romulan BOP, Romulan Scout, Vulcan Shuttle, list the resulting sizes, and find the average.<P>Then I discovered that the Vor'Cha and the Romulan scout are way off compared to the rest, so I left those out. Unfortunately, a 481.32m Vor'Cha is exactly what was used to scale the rest of the chart for the DS9TM; that's why you have such figures for the BoP and the K't'inga. I rather used the majority, and scaled the Bajoran Vessels and the Freighter again to what I hope are more reasonable sizes.<P>I feel very proud, since I've managed to accomplish this in only nine posts. However, it would still be great if you could read over the list, especially the comments, and provide some feedback. After we've cleared this part, then I'll continue and scale all the miscellaneous ships from the Fact Files on Bernd's site. Should be an interesting chart at the end.<P>Here it is: <a href="http://ms.anet.cz/~ibctel/alienshipsize.htm">The Interactive Alien Ship List</a><P>Boris<P>------------------<BR>"Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."<p>---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide<p> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Bernd</b> <br /><small>Member # 6</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,6,6,17,4,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 06, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">05:04 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Voil�: <A HREF="http://www.uni-siegen.de/~ihe/bs/startrek/fleet-charts.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.uni-siegen.de/~ihe/bs/startrek/fleet-charts.htm</A> <P>Boris: Sorry, I couldn't resist making the BoP 110m. Maybe I could do another version with 60m. I hope you understand my reason not to include the big Kazon ship <IMG SRC="http://flare.solareclipse.net/wink.gif"><P>------------------<BR>"The past, the present and the future, they exist as one, they breathe together." (Annorax, VOY: "The Year of Hell")<BR><A HREF="http://www.uni-siegen.de/~ihe/bs/startrek/" TARGET=_blank>Ex Astris Scientia</A> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jim Phelps</b> <br /><small>Member # 102</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,6,6,17,19,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 06, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">05:19 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Wonderful job, Bernd! I don't really care about the BoP, since these have been 110m long in the charts even before the Defiant was introduced, so you may well find 110m BoPs next to other ships.<P>As I said to Ryan, now is the time to have a look at it and see what doesn't feel right, then dig out conclusive VFX evidence to support it. Once we have the VFX, we compared it to deck spacing, and if it's not too ridiculous, we adopt the VFX. Otherwise we keep these lengths. That would be my suggestion of the procedure.<P>Boris<P>------------------<BR>"Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."<p>---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide<p> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Bernd</b> <br /><small>Member # 6</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,6,6,17,31,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 06, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">05:31 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> There is a close shot of the Negh'Var showing 10 rows of windows just in front of the point where the wings meet the hull. This would yield a length of >1000m. It's the huge parallel universe Negh'Var from "Shattered Mirror", however, I don't believe they changed the model for this episode. I'm looking for the pic... <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jim Phelps</b> <br /><small>Member # 102</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,6,7,5,39,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 07, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">05:39 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Interesting. I fired up "Way of the Warrior", and found three rather conclusive datapoints:<P>1) "Today is a good day to die". Gowron turns off the screen, and for a moment we see the Negh'Var head-on with a couple of Vor'chas in the background. The width of the Vor'cha closest to the viewer (yet behind the Negh'Var) is slightly less than the width of the Negh'Var.<P>2) Just before Martok and Gowron begin their untranslated Klingon discussion, there is a not-as-conclusive Negh'Var+Vor'cha combination, which indicates that the width of the Vor'cha is close to that of the Negh'Var.<P>3) After the discussion is finished, there is a shot of the Negh'Var firing green torpedoes/disruptor bolts, with two Vor'chas in the background. The Negh'Var is clearly no more than twice as wide as the Vor'cha behind it.<P>Conclusion: Negh'Var has a definite upper limit of 977m in this episode, this based on the generous assumption that it is twice as wide as a Vor'cha. The actual figure is probably 3/4ths or 1/2 of this value. I don't expect anyone to take this too seriously, however, until we have vidcaps to measure (Frank?)<P>Boris<BR><P>------------------<BR>"Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."<p>---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide<p> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Bernd</b> <br /><small>Member # 6</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,6,7,6,30,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 07, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">06:30 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Found it: <A HREF="http://www.uni-siegen.de/~ihe/bs/startrek/temp/giant-neghvar.jpg" TARGET=_blank>http://www.uni-siegen.de/~ihe/bs/startrek/temp/giant-neghvar.jpg</A> <P>Maybe they inserted the windows afterwards, though.<P>I think in WotW the VFX people didn't care much about starship sizes. I should have to watch it again and more closely, but I remember the ships were all about the same size (for instance K't'ingas and Vor'chas). <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Bernd</b> <br /><small>Member # 6</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,6,7,6,33,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 07, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">06:33 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Forgot to tell:<BR>with a deck height of 3.3m the ship is about 1100m long. Compared to the Defiant, it seems even longer, no matter if the latter is 170m or 68m. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jim Phelps</b> <br /><small>Member # 102</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,6,7,7,29,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 07, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">07:29 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Bernd,<P>Are we talking about this point?<P> <IMG SRC="http://trekcom.homepage.com/pic1.jpg"> <BR> <IMG SRC="http://trekcom.homepage.com/pic2.jpg"> <P>If so, then I also get a size of 1000m using 10' decks. The windows aren't visible on Doug Drexler's drawing, I don't know about the miniature. If you take a look at deck spacing in the DS9TM schematic, it appears as though only five rows were intended to be present in the top half of the marked area. The alternate universe Negh'Var might be a modification/VFX alteration of the existing model, or Doug Drexler's schematics are incorrect. I'm gonna take a look at the Olympic comparisons in AGT now. <P>Boris<P><BR>[This message has been edited by Boris (edited July 07, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by Boris (edited July 07, 1999).] <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Bernd</b> <br /><small>Member # 6</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,6,7,9,12,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 07, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:12 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> That's exactly my point. Since I don't think they actually changed the (hardware) model, they could have added the light rows to the completed model shots and just doubled them compared to the windows on the model (if there are any) or (if there are none) the *originally intended* number of decks.<P>This image from the Star Trek: 30 Years publication doesn't show any windows. I have the original size photo, and couldn't see any windows, either. <A HREF="http://www.users.csbsju.edu/~rsorense/modelcitizen/trekships/klingons/neghvarkeel.jpg" TARGET=_blank>http://www.users.csbsju.edu/~rsorense/modelcitizen/trekships/klingons/neghvarkeel.jpg</A> <P>Look at the curvature at the hull-to-wing transition. Maybe there are some faint windows: <A HREF="http://www.users.csbsju.edu/~rsorense/modelcitizen/trekships/klingons/modvor1.jpg" TARGET=_blank>http://www.users.csbsju.edu/~rsorense/modelcitizen/trekships/klingons/modvor1.jpg</A> <P>This is an effect shot with lighted windows (real or computer generated?): <A HREF="http://www.users.csbsju.edu/~rsorense/modelcitizen/trekships/klingons/negh-var-bow.jpg" TARGET=_blank>http://www.users.csbsju.edu/~rsorense/modelcitizen/trekships/klingons/negh-var-bow.jpg</A> <P>There are a few more pics on this page: <A HREF="http://www.users.csbsju.edu/~rsorense/modelcitizen/trekships/klingons/index.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.users.csbsju.edu/~rsorense/modelcitizen/trekships/klingons/index.html</A> <P>A few details in Doug Drexler's drawing look different than the model, and maybe he didn't draw windows because he didn't see any.<P>I would like to see screencaps from WotW. They seem to be the only reliable reference for "our" Negh'Var. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jim Phelps</b> <br /><small>Member # 102</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,6,8,15,4,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 08, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">03:04 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I found two of the ones I mentioned at Star Trek Sound and Vision:<P><ul><BR><LI><a href="http://web.ukonline.co.uk/stinsv/DSn/640ship/gowship.jpg">The pre-conversation crowd</a></li><BR><LI><a href="http://web.ukonline.co.uk/stinsv/DSn/640ship/gowship2.jpg">The post-conversation Negh'Var+two Vor'chas</a></li><BR></ul><P>I also found two nice images from "All Good Things", which clearly suggest that this particular version of the Negh'Var is not *that* much bigger than an Olympic:<P><ul><LI><a href="http://www.users.csbsju.edu/~rsorense/modelcitizen/trekships/klingons/vorattack.jpg">Firing at Pasteur</a></li><BR><LI><a href="http://www.shiporama.org/Images/Negh'Var/nvarpstr.jpg">Another shot</a></li><BR></ul><P>The Pasteur averages at 244m (range: 220-269m) in my spreadsheet, when compared to the known sizes of Oberth, Intrepid, Const II, Miranda, Const I, Excelsior, Sovereign, Galaxy and Nebula. The second AGT picture seems to indicate that the Negh'Var is pretty close to twice the width of the Pasteur. That's an overall length of 336m. I would guess it could be higher than this given the perspective, but probably not 1,100m.<P>As for the windows, I think I can see some on the pics you posted, but it is very unlikely that the model contains 14 rows in the "Shattered Mirror" position. Judging by the concentration and the blurring, I would not be so sure that this can be natural lighting, but I could be wrong. There are some additional AGT Negh'Var pictures in the <a href="http://www.shiporama.org/negh'var.htm">Negh'Var section</a> of Pedro's ship-o-rama site, but nothing too conclusive with regard to the windows.<P>Boris<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Boris (edited July 08, 1999).] <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>TSN</b> <br /><small>Member # 31</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,6,8,16,13,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 08, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">04:13 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Well, the AGT scene can probably be ignored, since it was all a Q illusion. He probably didn't bother getting the sizes right, since Piacrd probably wouldn't have known the difference anyway.<P>And, as for the <i>Olympic</i>, I don't think the encyclopedia is right about it. Assuming the deck height is somewhere between 12 and 13 feet, it is somewhere from 312 to 338m long. Your figure give a deck height of less than 10', which seems a bit low for a hospital ship like the <i>Pasteur</i>.<P>------------------<BR>"Keep honking: I'm reloading."<BR>-bumber sticker on a friend's truck <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jim Phelps</b> <br /><small>Member # 102</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,6,8,16,28,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 08, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">04:28 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Actually, the deck spacing could be 10' if we assume the upper limit of the Encyclopedia size. Unfortunately, we have no information as yet concerning the relationship between deck heights and ship types, save for the fact that certain smaller ships can have it in the 8-10' range, and that older ships appear to have lower deck heights (this based on a single example: the Constitution). I mean, once we have the 8 feet of walking space, anything is possible in-between.<P>Boris<P>------------------<BR>"Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."<p>---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide<p> <br /> </font> </td></tr> </table></td></tr></table> <br /> <br />
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