Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Warbird/Ent-D length comparison

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Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

Back in TNG 'The Neutral Zone' did Data say the Warbird was "nearly twice as long as the Enterprise" or "at least twice as long as the Enterprise". I haven't seen that episode for ages and can't remember.

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Posted by Mycon on :

That Warbird was really large, the E seemed like a small cargo tug beside it

I liked the shot when the ships can be seen "head to head". I suppose the Warbird was some kind of a flagship, because I can't remember such a large Warbird in any other episode (Haven't seen DS9 Season 7 yet).

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Mycon

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

The Warbird was the original length quagmire, back from the days when everyone thought the only Defiant was Constitution-class.

Probert himself has given the length at which he designed the ship, which is in the region of 1200m long. Indeed, in the head-to-head shot from "TNZ" suggests just that.

However, come "Contagion", the idea was to make the Warbird and Galaxy somewhat matched. Either oblivious to or intentionally ignoring the previous length, the VFX guys portrayed the Warbird as only slightly larger than the Galaxy. The same stock footage of the WB to the upper right and the E-D to the lower left with different backgrounds has been reused throughout TNG since then, and while a bit of distortion may come into play, the WB is clearly under a kilometer.

In "Tin Man" we see a Warbird very close to the E-D on two occasions... one firing on it from behind and passing over it, and the other getting tossed by Tin Man. It is without a doubt under 800 m here.

In "The Die is Cast" we see Warbirds and Keldons next to one another. Whatever about the length of the Cardie ships being inconsistent, the Warbirds are again not in the 1200m range.

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Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

There could also be two different classes of Warbirds. Picard did once mention something about a type B Warbird (The Defector, I think), which carries the connotation of a type A existing. And since he said that they were likely to encounter a type B (not sure about this), there might only be very few type A's, which are like the big one we saw in "Neutral Zone". It would also make sense, as the first Warbird encountered by the Federation was the big one, thus a type A designation would be appropriate until more information could be gathered by Starfleet.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Well, it was Worf who called it "type-B", but I was going to make the same point. It doesn't make sense for it to be designated "type-B", if there's only one kind. The question is, is the D'deridex the small type-B, or the big "type-A"?

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Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

In 'Yesterday's Enterprise' Captain Garrett tells Picard the Ent-C was attacked by four Warbirds (back in 2344). Could these have been of a earlier/different design then the D'deridex? Maybe they were the type-A Warbirds.

I hate to think that there is another ship (other then the BOP) that has different scales for the same model. It is illogical...

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I rather agree with Dax. Keep in mind that the type designations were assigned by Starfleet, most likely because everything known about Romulan vessels post Tomed was based on sketchy intelligence information.

At any rate, I remember reading that Probert's numbers were never really transmitted to the VFX people. So it's likely they never had a concrete number for it, at first anyway.

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Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

Yeah, I'm also a proud member of the "A-type Warbirds were from Yesterday's Enterprise" camp, too... *shows his button*

The reality behind the D'deridex is quite simple, really. It had to be tuned down just because it's so damn scary looking anyway. Push it up to twice as long as the Enterprise and you have a ship that looks like it could eat anything else with nacelles for lunch.

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

Oh, and Tim, Picard called it a "B-type Warbird" when doing a little tirade in front of Jarok in "The Defector", IIRC. D'deridex came up later in "Tin Man".

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

Im glad you guys agree with me, even so, no-one has answered my original question.

Oh, the DS9 Tech Manual gives a length of 1042m for the D'deridex-class - any comments on this? Should this be taken as "canon" if Probert intended 1200m?

Posted by Jim Phelps (Member # 102) on :

Probert's size is 4,400 feet or 1,341m, and was given to me over e-mail (I think Bernd recently pointed to his website for an image). The same number is evident in the three-ship AMT/Ertl set. Doug Drexler's charts seem to be based on the "nearly twice the size" comment in the Encyclopedia text, which is likely an estimate Mike Okuda received from someone (I'm not sure that the NZ dialogue had anything).

Rick Sternbach apparently measured the Encyclopedia II Ships of the Galaxy charts for the DS9TM figures; the Warbird size looks like it had been derived through comparisons with the 682m long Negh'Var in the tiny silhouettes at the bottom of the page. The normal Romulan Spacecraft charts have the usual 1200m, so this might be a scaling mistake.

Probert did tell me that the VFX people didn't agree on this one, I think I'll e-mail him again and ask for details. In the meantime, perhaps we should get some vidcaps of the aforementioned comparisons to determine some clear upper and lower limits.

Boris

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Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

No! A scaling discussion. Run for your lives!

My old argument: Don't scale if it's not absolutely necessary. If the authors continuously invent new ship types and classes, this is because they don't know better and not because they want to portray a larger or smaller ship.

BTW:; Welcome to the Forum, Dax.

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

*thinks* Okay, I guess I'm thinking of Worf as the one who called it "D'deridex". Nevermind. :-)

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Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

*there are many constants in the universe, but one that stands out is Tim's insanity*

Data called it a D'deridex, Tim.

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

***WHOOOOOOP! WHOOOOOOP!***
NON-CANON ALERT!

One of the ST:TNG Pocket Books ("The Romulan Strategem", I think) told of a D'Kazanak Class Warbird, which was said to dwarf the "Normal-Sized" D'Deridex Class warbird. It got zarked, though, as I recall.

Also, the new book "Vulcan's Heart" names the class of Warbird used at Narendra III. But I don't recall it at this time.

END NON-CANON ALERT
***WHOOOoooo...***

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"When we turn our back on our principles, we stop being human." -- Janeway, "Equinox"

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Having just read Vulcan's Heart, those ships are intended to be modern warbirds. I don't recall a name ever being given to them, though. (The picture on the front shows us a nice big D'deridex, though.) I don't happen to agree with the class being that old.

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Okay, so if Picard said "type-B", and Data said "D'deridex", then what the hell did Worf say?! *L*

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"I have a shotgun, a shovel, and five acres behind the house. Do not trifle with me."
-from Baloo's cousins' endless supplies of e-mail jokes

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

Odds are, he said "Wheapons"

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

I know this has nothing to do with ship lengths, but it has been bugging me for a while ever since i thought about it, probably just a misunderstanding. The Enterprise-C existed when starfleet uniforms where still red'n white, right, so that places it before 2350 at least, well I guess you have the correct dates of its service time. The thing is I saw a ("canon")painting of the Enterprise-C defending the klingon outpost as was destined by fate, but the romulans attacking it was D'dericex class!!!
They never came out of hiding until "Neutral Zone" so they couldn't have existed then!

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Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

Nimrod.. I know the picture you're referring to, but that things not canon...

Narendra III was 2344, IIRC.

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

Hmmm, seems I've opened a can of worms here. Thanks to everyone for the feedback - I've been away for a couple of days. Thanks Boris, for Probert's original length.

Alot of the DS9 Tech Manual figures seem dodgy. It is hard to accept them as canon even though they come from Sternbach and co.

Warbird lower and upper length limits? I would say between ~900m and (the previously mentioned) 1341m. It is rather difficult to compare ship sizes from watching VFX scenes. It is even more difficult when using vidcaps (the sense of perspective is easily lost in a stationary image).

I agree with Bernd. Every ship class/type/design should have one fixed scale/length. Even the annoying BOP.

I'm pretty sure the Warbirds mentioned in 'Yesterday's Enterprise' are of a different design than the ones that exist now. In 'The Neutral Zone' the D bridge crew were surprised by the menacing appearance of the Romulan ship (implying that they hadn't seen that design before then).

[This message has been edited by Dax (edited August 08, 1999).]

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Starfleet probably didn't know too much about the warbirds that attacked Narendra III either. I don't get the feeling that the Enterprise was given a chance to send any reports back.

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"We took a small flight, in the middle of the night, from one tiny place to another."
--
Ben Folds Five

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

But the didn't the klingons survive to thank Starfleet?

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If I had a drone for every person I've assimilated, I'd be a queen.
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Posted by Galen (Member # 72) on :

Somewhere I saw a different representation of the Narendra III battle and the artist came up with a different design for the Romulan ships. I wish I had it on my computer. I liked the design. I doubt the ships that attacked E-C were the class of warbirds we are familiar with since Tasha referred to "the warbirds of that era."

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Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

Yes, Galen, that line from Tasha certainly is a good piece of evidence supporting the theory. It is a shame that we never got to see the look of the earlier Warbirds. It is also a pity the Romulans don't use anything but D'deridex warships these days. After all, variety is the spice of life. At least the Klingons have different ships.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Regarding the Klingons, relations between them and the UFP weren't too warm at the time. (Better than before Praxis, but nowhere near TNG levels.) They might not have been willing to divulge such data. Especially if the two empires were still trading technology. Perhaps the ships that attacked Narendra III were derived from Klingon designs. Certainly not a very honorable occurance.

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"We took a small flight, in the middle of the night, from one tiny place to another."
--
Ben Folds Five

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Good enugh for me.

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Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

We will probably never be sure exactly what happened at Narendra III. It is also unlikely we will get to see what those old Warbirds were like.

Weren't the Romulans and Klingons already enemies before Narendra III?

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

The Romulans and the Klingons were never what you'd call friends. They did have an alliance for some unknown period starting during TOS and ending...well, sometime before TNG. But there was always some animosity in the relationship. As to the formal breakup of the alliance, I'd be willing to bet that economic links were maintained for a time after that. They are harder to break, after all.

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"We took a small flight, in the middle of the night, from one tiny place to another."
--
Ben Folds Five

Posted by warbird5 on :

Bringin back an old topic

Are both warbird sizes stronger than the Galaxy or the larger type A class.

Posted by Obese Penguin (Member # 271) on :

There are Two types of Warbirds the D'Deredix and the D'Kasanak both are larger then the galaxy but the d'derdix is the smaller one of the two and the D'K is about twice the size of the Galaxy .

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Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

And the D'deridex has (at least) 2 sub types, -A and -B. Which are probably not of the same size.

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Posted by warbird5 on :

you haven't answered my question. Is the smaller Warbird type stronger than a Galaxy?

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

I don't think that the Type-A is the D'K..... from The Romulan Prize - cause there was only one type and it had just been built - and this was AFTER The Neutral Zone and the Neutral Zone Warbird is about 1200m where as the book Warbird was about 2000m... I just think its either a one off or definately in that book alternate universe... not a bad book though...

I think That the E-D could take out a Type-B warbird - but they warbird from Tin Man did reduce the E-D's shields by 75% - although it was a suprise attack.

The Warbird in "The Face of the Enemy" - the one that Troi was on - they were "scared" of the E-D since it was a Galaxy class ship... maybe this was a Type C - reduced to menial cargo runs?

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Posted by Obese Penguin (Member # 271) on :

I dought that The Romulan Prize was in an Alternate Reality , wasent it an Episode? im not sure

Well in my Opinion The Galaxy can destroy any class of warbird well except for the D'K or that Type A because of its size and Tactical Superiouity but if the Captain is experianced and concidering it is a fair fight I guess anything is possible , but fair fights with Romulans are few and far between :-)

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

It would stand to reason that "Type A" and "Type B" are Starfleet names for Romulan ships, used because the real Romulan names at first were unknown. It would also seem logical that Type A would be the first type observed - and unless told otherwise, we'd have to assume that this was the ship in TNG "The Neutral Zone". A later, apparently smaller type would be dubbed Type B and later given the proper Romulan name D'Eridex.

It is of course possible that Romulan ships were spotted even before "TNZ", or that agents gave partial information on them. But why wasn't Picard told more of this? Or, if he *was* told in that secret conference at the beginning of the episode, why didn't he tell his crew more?

It is also possible that Type A was in fact an earlier Romulan design, perhaps the one that maimed Enterprise-C at Narendra III. Starfleet might not have gotten much info out of that, since the E-C was destroyed - thus the claim that there was no info on Romulans between the Tomed Incident and "TNZ" could still be true. But the Klingons might have given some sort of description of the Romulan ships, enough to justify a tentative designation of "Type A Warbird"...

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

I support the idea that the Type A Warbird is from Narendra III ("Yesterday's Enterprise") and is the forerunner to the Warbird of today. Of course the Type A was completely different in appearance to what we now know as a Warbird.

All the Warbirds from "TNZ" and onwards are the Type B D'deridex-class. We can simply thank the VFX people for apparent variations in its size.

It's nice to see that the first thread I ever created is still alive and well.

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

We get into tricky territory here, Dax - basically even if the effects guys stuffed it up - what we saw was what we got - Two distinctly different sizes of Romulan Warbirds - the huge-ass WB from TNZ and the smaller - more common Warbird from "Contagion", "Tin Man", "Face of the Enemy" and "The Pegasus" to name a few.

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Interestingly, the ships that have the worst scaling problems (Warbird, BoP, Defiant) all come equipped with a cloak. It would only be prudent to equip cloaking devices with a "cat in a corner" feature that increases or decreases the apparent size of the vessel as desired. The Romulans would certainly have used the feature in their first-ever encounter with the E-D, dropping it later when the Feds knew better and could no longer be fooled. Klingon BoPs would also most certainly use it in "The Defector", the episode with the largest BoPs to date, to intimidate the opponents.
And whenever the E-D met Gowron or Duras or K'Mpec in space, the size of their ships actually depended on the size of their ego...

And the Defiant might suffer from size discrepancies simply because the crew doesn't know how to use the Romulan cloak. Nog: "Sir, I've always wondered... what is this knob at the side of the cloaking device, with these strange x0.5, x1, x2, x5 and x10 markings?"
"It's the, er, crossnumerificator. Just turn it like this and these little lights change to a more pleasing pattern. And it sounds different, too." "But what does it DO, Sir?"

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

It is of course possible that Romulan ships were spotted even before "TNZ",

Does no-one remember "Angel One"? The Enterprise is ordered to the Neutral Zone in response to Starfleet's detection of Romulan warship movements on the opposite side of the Zone ...

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Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :

Jeff, he was talking about Romulan Battlecruisers. That could mean anything....=)

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Woah! This thread is nearly 2 years old!

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Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

Jeff likes living in the past.

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Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :

Timo:
The "Cat-in-the-Corner" technical theory is brilliant!
Naturally, if the cloak can bend light, this would be a relatively simple addition.

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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Today is tommorow's past.

Besides, what good are old threads if you don't drag 'em up for a kick around the block every now and then?

But the point of "Angel One" was that there had been some sort of contact between the two powers prior to "TNZ." Detecting Romulan ships is a contact ...

Posted by Starbuck (Member # 153) on :

It occurs to me that the early concept sketches of the Warbird show it as roughly the same length as the E-D, but much taller... then later on it gets bigger generally. Time to fish out the scanner I think...

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

To go back to whether a D'Deredex is stronger than a Galaxy, we have the following:

1/ The HUGE Warbird from TNZ that the Enterprise crew were scared of.

2/ The Warbird in Tin Man than badly knocked out the Enterprises shields in a few shots.

3/ Two Warbirds against one GCS and three birds-of-prey, apparently equal. ("Shall we die together?")

4/ The Warbird that was scared of the Enterprise in Face of the Enemy.

I'd like to regard both ships as pretty equal. The Enterprise crew seemed scared in TNZ because it was abrand new (and HUGE) ship. They had no idea of it's capabilites.

The warbird in Tin Man had was on a one-way course, having pumped all it's energy into "overdriving" it's engines. Perhaps it did the same thing to it's weapons?

It's possible that the reason the Romulans were worried in Face of the Enemy wasn't so much due to the fact that they were facing a Galaxy-class ship, but that they were faving the Enterprise, which, by that time, was surely at least slightly famous amoungst Romulan commanders.

Besides, in all one on one situations, the Romulan commanders did their normal "you will not escape us" bluster, but Picard was equally strong back. I think that it'd be a fight too close to call. Which is why two on one's would be easy to call.

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Posted by Grapeape6 on :

I agree with most of what everyone said above, but as usual I'd like to throw my 3 1/2 cents in

- it seems that the Romulans obviously "throw all of their eggs in one basket" when it comes to ships - as opposed to the 30+ classes Starfleet has for various functions, the Romulans have a few versatile ship types. So far, all we've seen are the Warbird (huge), and the Scout (small), and a shuttlecraft. They must have a few other types, but probably not many, since all of their ships seem multi-purpose. For all we know, the Scout ("Pi" class according to some)could easily double as a "escort" in fleet engagements (equivalent in size and function to a Klingon B'rel, Cardassian Hideki, Jem H'adar "bug", and Starfleet Peregrine (large version) ). Also, it seems logical that, like the Klingons, there are probably at least two sizes of the same general design of Warbird (huge flagship/battleship and smaller cruiser, maybe even a third small destroyer version)- this would also account to the real-world scaling mistakes the TNG creators made...

Posted by crobato on :

The 1042m size for the Warbirds was also repeated in the background information for the upcoming Dominion Wars game. While games are not canon, their creators probably have a lot more access to Paramount to check and verify information. If 1042m was the information passed to them, it's likely to that Paramount intended it to be 1042m.

It should be noted that either the Dominion Wars game or the game Star Trek Armada never depicted Warbirds or Bird of Preys with different scaled sizes. BOPs and Warbirds only come with one size and one size only. If there is a smaller or larger ship, that ship is a different class altogether.

As for the Warbird being the only Romulan ship I find that hard to believe. They do have scouts and science ships, and probably and most logically to have ships between the two size extremes. In the game Star Trek Armada, they have theorized (non canonically) a whole range of ships between the Warbird and the Romulan scout.

Posted by Eclipse (Member # 472) on :

The trouble with Armada is that the scaling in general is way off. Prime example: Sovereign / Cube. No way is that right. OTOH, the designers had to make some compromises, I guess. Still a great game, though.

[This message has been edited by Eclipse (edited April 26, 2001).]