Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Abscence of the Excelsior Class Refit

This is topic Abscence of the Excelsior Class Refit in forum Starships & Technology at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://flare.solareclipse.net/ultimatebb.php/topic/6/398.html

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

This has been tugging at my mind for a while now. Why haven't we seen any Excelsior Class Refits save for the Enterprise-B and the Lakota? A simple explanation would be that the ECS refit model wasn't around during TNG, but that doesn't explain the single appearance of the ECS refit on DS9. Does anyone want to try and explain this to me (and the other forumites who are wondering about this)?

------------------
All hands, brace for impact!
WHAM!!

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

Real-world answer: They never made it into a CGI model. I have no other explanation...

------------------
Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

I had a theory, a long time ago. Buggered if I can remember what it was, though. Anyone save threads from EnterForum-B or -C?

------------------
Phase 1: Steal Underpants
Phase 2: ?
Phase 3: Profit!

Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

Well, since I am doing the write-up for the Excelsior II for UP3, here's what I put in mine.

The Excelsior II was built as a varaint of the Excelsior Testbed, made to be the 'regular' Excelsior, and would be mass-produced. The first two ships of the class, USS Enterprise-B and USS Kongo, both suffered problems with their impulse engines and computers, so much that Starfleet decided to cancel the Excelsior II project, leaving the other unbuilt hulls to become regular Excelsiors, which was found to be more stable. Then, around 2330, Starfleet needed some medium-sized explorers that could be quickly built, so they quickly dug up the design for the Excelsior IIs, and built 5 more ships of this design, with the Lakota being in this group. These ships also were improved in that the safety problems of before were corrected.

Sound good?

------------------
"I am Sci-Fi"
-The 359

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

FWIW, the Lakota was described as undergoing a refit in "Homefront."

------------------
Frank's Home Page, which you've never seen before and want to visit right now

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

Yes, but it was in service prior to that refit.

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Right. But were the writers trying to imply that it was previously a standard Excelsior?

------------------
Frank's Home Page, which you've never seen before and want to visit right now

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Storywise, I'm pretty sure the Lakota's refit was just meant to include the upgraded weapons.

At any rate, here's my two cents regarding the Excelsior.

Assume for a minute that the Enterprise B had a mission similar to the rest of the Enterprises, deep space exploration. Perhaps the refit Excelsior was better suited for such missions. (More sensors, science labs, what have you.) If so, perhaps the Excelsior refit shared the same fate as other Explorer type vessels. These ships are assigned to the wild and wooly areas of space, and often suffer for it. Consider how many Constitutions were lost during TOS, or the fact that half of the initial production run of Galaxies were destroyed within a decade. It seems possible that most of the Excelsior refits were given dangerous missions, and that is why so few remain today.

What do you think, sirs?

------------------
"Just because you're floating doesn't mean you haven't drowned."
--
They Might Be Giants

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

I tend to think that all Excelsiors shown since the Excelsior ara are the SECOND refit of the original Excelsior. From what I can dig up in my memory, the original Utopia Planetia made mention of three versions of the Excelsior: the original, the Enterprise-B, and all others seen in the TNG/DS9 era. Same hull as the original Excelsior, but has the tidbits (and more) or the Ent-B.

------------------
I can resist anything.......
Except Temptation

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

It's all coming back to me now. . . I though that maybe the Enterprise-B version was created in response to certain failings of the original Excelsior version, which were subsequently corrected in a way that made the extensive changes of the refit unnecessary. Those extra impulse engines, for example - maybe the originals weren't providing enough power. Only a handful of the refits were created, and therefore we've seen very few of them. They didn't feel it necessary to revert the refist back to standard Excelsior configuration.

Oh, and the refit does exist as CGI - it was used in the Nexus sequence.

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

Tahna Los: Yes, there are three versions of the Excelsior-class, but the Ent-B is the third type (not the second). We have the 'ST:III' prototype, then the 'ST:VI' production version, and the 'Generations' Ent-B last.

BTW folks, I hate to sound like a nitpicker but, it is improper to call the Ent-B a refit. The ship was built to that spec all at the one time. What were they refitting? The B is an Excelsior-variant.

I can't see any real advantage to the Ent-B design over the normal Excelsior. Starfleet probably realised that the variation is a waste of extra materials and labor. Unfortunately, that doesn't explain why the relatively new Lakota was the variant.

------------------
"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, DS9 'Tears of the Prophets')

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

Really? I thought all the movies-era opticals were done with models for Generations and models in "Paradise Lost". Oops.

Then they probably just didn't want to pay ILM for the CGI models. They originally didn't for the new FC ships, didn't they?

------------------
Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")

Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

In my write-up the Excelsior (refit) which some dislike is refered to as the 'Improved Excelsior' or the 'Excelsior II'.

Anyway, you guys must have read my UP3 write-up, since according to it, the Excelsior II was an explorer variant of the Excelsior. It had more sensors and added impulse engines for redundancy, for when it would be out in deep deep deep space, without capability for rescue from other ships. But, according to my write-up, both the working prototypes, Enterprise-B and Kongo, were both destroyed before the turn of the century, mainly due to system problems. Another reason why Starfleet cut the project after the loss of these two was the fact that such a large explorer type ship wasn't needed, with work on the Ambassador class coming up. Starfleet just needed a large cruiser, which the original Excelsior design could do well. The Lakota was a 'new-era Excelsior II', using the same external arrangement, yet different internal arrangement, for a quick-build medium explorer to compliment to Ambassador.

------------------
"I am Sci-Fi"
-The 359

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

I'll say again, the Excelsiors used and seen in the TNG and DS9 eps are probably the newest versions of the Excelsior Class. New internal stuff and guts, same external hull.

------------------
I can resist anything.......
Except Temptation

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

I agree, but they do have the external appearance of the ILM (ST:VI) or recently Greg Jein's ("Flashback") Excelsior. Both miniatures represent the first production Excelsior.

Do we all agree that Starfleet don't build any more Excelsiors? So, obviously, they would refit the existing ships with the latest kit (where possible/feasible).

------------------
"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, DS9 'Tears of the Prophets')

Posted by Pedro on :

Hate to throw another wrench into the works, but several of the shots of the E-B in Generations were CGI. A model was built, so that's not really a valid explanation. Doh! Maybe ILM is just hoarding the model.

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

Er, yes, I already said that.

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

The model alone was used in "Paradise Lost". If anything, ILM would be hoarding the CGI. Even so, why couldn't the VFX guys create another CGI? They could simply modify the existing Excelsior CGI.

------------------
"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, DS9 'Tears of the Prophets')
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

Because they're lazy. The modifications were made to the studio model so it could be damaged in the way the script called for. . . and I'm not sure if they ever removed the additions, explaining why when they needed a model for "Paradise Lost" they used the altered one. Either that or they felt an ordinary Excelsior wouldn't look tough enough to fight the Defiant.

Have we ever seen the original Excelsior model again with the E-B extras removed? Mostly we've seen the CGI version since. . .

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

The Ent-B has a different paint colour and design (compare the paint design on deck 2). They also removed those fins near the impulse crystals. It wouldn't be worth converting the model back. Anyway, they now have the Greg Jein Excelsior miniature (from VOY "Flashback") to play with.

------------------
"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, DS9 'Tears of the Prophets')
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK

Posted by Pedro on :

Doh! I guess I though that was your sig, First One, and I never read sigs.

'Downgrading' the original model would be essentially impossible (good luck removing those bumps that go around the bridge section!), which is of course the reason the new model was built. From what I can tell, the CGI people only build new models if something specific is needed, so unless a script specifically calls for an Excelsior II (III?), we'll probably never see it again. Too bad, it's a fine looking ship...

Posted by Jim Phelps (Member # 102) on :

I guess that nowdays it's not really cost-effective to use the seven-footer when you have the five-footer in existence. The fact that it hasn't been CGI-d doesn't play a role, since as late as season 6, Gary Hutzel did mostly motion control, while David Stipes preferred CGI (they change every other episode). Didn't know that the producers allow such a difference in style...

Boris

------------------
"Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."

---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide