(which I must admit is not very surprising, Frank)

I suddenly felt the need to finally compile a comparative (and commented) list of the ship lengths given in our beloved official publications: http://www.uni-siegen.de/~ihe/bs/startrek/articles/size_table.htm

Criticism about the table content is welcome, but not about the table style. It took me the whole last night to convert the Excel table into a proper Frontpage HTML table. I reckon retyping would have been much faster. Boycott Microsoft products! (Not that I would suddenly support the Mac fraction, though ).

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"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way."
A somewhat different Janeway in VOY: "Living Witness"
Ex Astris Scientia
 

Show me a scene where the Defiant isn't 120m, or that the 170m length has ever been used by anyone on the show.

"Assuming a standard deck height of 3.4m as on most starships seen so far the Akira would be 440m. There is no reason to assume that the Akira is an exception, and further evidence points to about the same length."

Well, if the Akira is a warship, it might have smaller decks.

"In the lower left corner of the above image the Akira top view from this book is scaled to the Sovereign so that the two bridge modules are matched. The result is surprising, since the Akira would be only 272m long, much less than the minimum deck height allows, but about the same size that is allegedly used for VFX, according to David Stipes."

It wasn't that small when I compared the bridges. (http://frankg.dgne.com/sfsd/akiralength/sa-scale.jpg) But, we have no reason to think that either the escape pods or the bridges are similar (although realistically the Akira bridge should be about the same size as the Sovereign's, if not smaller).

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Frank's Home Page
"Okay, what's an MSD?" - Rick Sternbach

If the Defiant is less than about 200-300 meters in that scene, then the station must be less than about a mile, which means that the Excelsior is a real tiny ship.

Boris

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"Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."

---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide

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Frank's Home Page
"Okay, what's an MSD?" - Rick Sternbach

actually in the top left picture I reckon the Saber class might be the 'new mirandas'

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"Remove your hand or I will remove your arm!" - 7 of 9
 

1) Rick Sternbach quoted a 2108' figure three times on the web, which, taken together with the SciPubTech figure (642.5) and that in "Making of DS9" (642) leads me rather to suppose that M. Okuda made a mistake here converting the design size, as he did in the case of the Sovereign.

2) You should probably make mention somewhere of Alex Jaeger's comment about the size of Akira (someone needs to get the exact quote, but I'm pretty sure he compared the 'size' of the two saucers.

3) Why do you take the size of a Miranda for granted, but not that of a Nebula?

4) The size of the Oberth class was given as 395 feet in the ILM charts. Although not definitive, the number might be worth mentioning somewhere.

5) The size of the Vor'cha is 481 meters only to the extent that everyone puts it at ~3/4ths the size of a Galaxy. Rick Sternbach didn't explicitly confirm the usage of a Vor'cha to measure everything, but the numbers seem to work out in this manner (did you ask him?). I've played with the notion that he knew the size of the Negh'Var as well, since he designed it, but that one is far less likely.

6) The actual figure given by Probert is 1200 feet or 366 meters; however, this is close enough. It is worth mentioning that he couldn't convince the VFX people as to the scaling, and that an AMT kit (which otherwise uses the official 360' and 4400' figures for BoP and Warbird, respectively) quotes the size at 1600' or 487 meters.

7) In a separate post, Galor was quoted at "about 1200 feet" by David Stipes.

8) Which vessel do you mean by Vulcan Warp Shuttle? There is the TMP one, which the Encyclopedia, TMP blueprints, and Fact Files place at about 48-53 meters, and there is the lander, with about the same size range.

Nice job overall, might be useful to add a column such as "other sources", just in case we receive further information in the future.

Boris

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"Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."

---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide

Boris

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"Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."

---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide

"Well, if the Akira is a warship, it might have smaller decks."
I disagree. Firstly, we can't know if the Akira was really supposed to be a "warship", this would make the Defiant much less radical and also much less powerful than always stated. I think the Akira is a normal explorationcruiserthing with unusually strong armament. Even if the Akira is a warship, who tells us the decks have to be less than 3.5m? There has never been such a ship, and the 120m Defiant (warship) has even decks of 4m or so. I will include your argument to the page, though (I already wanted, but just forgot it).

"But, we have no reason to think that either the escape pods or the bridges are similar (although realistically the Akira bridge should be about the same size as the Sovereign's, if not smaller)."
The escape pods are an additional hint pointing to 440m, I wouldn't exclude they are actually of different sizes. I can imagine a larger bridge module was chosen for the Akira for aesthetical reasons. The ship has much more pronounced components than other designs, and the large bridge counterpoises the catamaran hulls.
 

Thanks for the additional info. I will change the following:
Take only those figures as granted that are confirmed by the designer, the structure of the ship itself and a reliable printed publication.
Add a column with "other sources" (e.g. D'Kora length, the rough design sizes such as "half the length of...")
Ask Rick Sternbach for the reference for the DS9TM (should have done this before).
 

Oh yeah, where does that 127m Oberth figure originate from?

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets)
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK

[This message has been edited by Dax (edited November 04, 1999).]
 

Aren't the Galaxy's decks something like 3m?

Why would the Akira have a bigger bridge than the Sovereign?

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Frank's Home Page
"Okay, what's an MSD?" - Rick Sternbach

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Frank's Home Page
"Okay, what's an MSD?" - Rick Sternbach

Boris

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"Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."

---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide

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Frank's Home Page
"Okay, what's an MSD?" - Rick Sternbach

Frank: You are probably right, I also have in mind that the average Galaxy decks are not quite 3.4m or 3.5m. If I get it right, the Galaxy, the ship with a kindergarten and elementary school, carpetry in engineering and a weapon console that looks like our former living room furniture is supposed to be a warship.

The Danube: The pic is from the scene I was talking of, but here the Deffy is only about five times the length of a Danny (which for most of us yields the desired length). Could there be another screencap where the runabout is closer to the Defiant and therefore appears smaller? I remember a factor of 7.

BTW, which episode is it? It's probably before the shuttlebay was installed.

Bridge: There is no definite reason why the bridge should be larger on the real ship.
*engages speculationjustificationconjecturedevice*
Maybe there is an additional hull armor around it?

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"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way."
A somewhat different Janeway in VOY: "Living Witness"
Ex Astris Scientia
 

The image is from "By Inferno's Light."

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Frank's Home Page
"Okay, what's an MSD?" - Rick Sternbach

While he does fudge the numbers from time to time in order to make a particular shot fit, the deviations we observe are far more likely, in my opinion, to be the work of other supervisors using different figures. I'm gonna be sending a regular letter to Gary Hutzel in a couple of days (now that we're in the same country), asking him about the Defiant and perhaps a few other issues.

The tractor emitter remained there a long time after the shuttlebay was shown. One of the clearest views is in fact provided during the Defiant's destruction.

Boris

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"Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."

---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited November 04, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited November 04, 1999).]
 

1. Your ** says that the ILM chart is from TWOK. The chart was for ST:III.

2. Shouldn't the length of the Sovereign-class be accepted as 685m? 2248ft is written twice in the TNG Sketchbook. 685m is also listed on the SciPubTech poster.

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets)
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK

[This message has been edited by Dax (edited November 04, 1999).]
 

1. When you calculate your decks, you have to leave additional room for Jefferies Tubes between decks.

2. Can't we just say that the Danube is about 1.5 decks thick (the main deck plus room for storage and crawl spaces above and below)? If the Defiant has five decks (I know the Tech Man says four, but Jadzia said "Hull breach on deck 5") and the Danube has 1.5 and they're close to the same height...you should be able to calculate the Defiant size.

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"Resolve and thou art free."
 

The fifth deck on the Defiant was mentioned in three episodes, "To the Death", "Rejoined", and "Way of the Warrior". Sure, we can arrive at a pretty good lower limit using the five-deck figure, but we also have to keep in mind the fact that the MSD shows four decks plus a little subdeck downbelow.

This means that Deck 5 is likely an accessway of some kind, which could be ceiling-less in some spots so as to allow people (Sisko) to walk on it. In order to emphasize the deck-function of the crawlspace, we should probably assume the greatest size possible for those four decks, which gives us perhaps 110-120 meters as the length.

The upper limit to the size is, of course, provided by the observed set spacing of Engineering levels 1 and 2. I'd really like to know what this works out to.

Boris

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"Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."

---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide

I measured the AMT Defiant model. The height from the bottom of the nacelles to the top of the circular area around the bridge (basically, the distance you'd get if you placed the model flat on a table and put a flat piece of wood across the top of the circle and measure the distance between the wood and the table) is 6 cm � .5 mm (I sure hope you guys can see that "+-" thing; if you just see some odd character, it's a "give-or-take" thingie). The length from rear to deflector was 41 cm, � 1 cm. Using these measurements, estimating a reasonable deck height, and agreeing that the Defiant has to have at least 4.5 decks, we should be able to come up with a reasonable range for a completely internally consistant size for the Defiant. Assuming, of course, that the AMT model has the same ratios as the official physical model and the CGI model. I think we'll all agree to that.

Let's start with the minimum size. If the Defiant only has four full decks and no subdecks (just for the sake of argument, and so we won't have to debate about the size of deck five), the length of the model is 40 cm, and a deck is two meters high including all space between (ala Jefferies tubes), we get 55 meters, � two for outer hull and armor.

Now for max size. Say deck five is actually a full deck (again, for the sake of argument), the length of the model is 42 cm, and a deck is three meters high, including all space between, we get 105 meters, � two for outer hull and armor.

So using those assumptions, and throwing in a reasonable margin of error, we get a length somewhere between 50 and 110 meters. The only real guesswork involves the height of a deck. Anyone have a dispute over that?

If not, I'd say that the average of the boundary lengths is as close to the real length as we're gonna get until new evidence emerges. That would put the Defiant around 80 meters. Internal consistancy only gaurenteed, of course.

As for comparisons to other ships, the only way this works is some odd subspace phenomenon. Then compairing to DS9 would be a problem, since no subspace field could be active when docked. So we could say it's a problem with the size of DS9, not the Defiant!

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Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons; for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
 

55m??? There is no way the Defiant could be that small. 2m high decks? I think not. Realistically, no full starship deck should be less than 3m tall. This gives a minimum length of 90m for our friend, the Defiant. I would be surprised if the ship was actually less than 110m long, though.

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets)
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK
 

So the AMT model has a different shape that the official model?

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Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons; for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
 

And you have to keep in mind that the bottom of the nacelles isn't the actual bottom of the Defiant. For reference, MSD Deck 3 is the bottom of the ship, while Deck 4 is the surrounding shell areas. The nacelles extend a little below the shell areas.

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"Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."

---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide

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Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons; for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
 

One question- why would Sisko take Weyoun and the Jemmy soldier to this deck 5 (turbolift ride in "To the Death")?

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets)
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK
 

Boris

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"Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."

---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide

All three get on together and then Sisko says "deck 5, section 1". The scene does imply that they are all going the same place. Emphasis on the word "imply"

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets)
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK
 

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Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons; for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.