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Posted by Striker on :

Why is it do you think, that we see so many Excelsior ships compared to Ambassador class ships? If the Ambassador was the next step in ship design, shouldn't we have seen more of them on the front line during the Dominon War? We see alot of Excelsior ships, but I personally have only seen the Ent-C in any Trek Episode....then again, I could have missed one

the RL reason could be because the Excelsior model is more avaliable or maybe someone at Paramount has an obsession with the Excelsior ships(I personally think the design is way cooler than the Ambassador)

However, I wonder what the ST reason is.
Just a thought

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-Striker
kob.diabloii.net

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

I believe the RL reason also includes a destroyed Amb. class model. Also, the Exc. design is more famous because of the movies, and the mentioning of the 'great Excelsior project' in one or more TOS episodes.

I don't really know the Star Trek reason. I too thought that the Amb. was made to replace the Exc.

BTW: (from the Star Trek Archive)

Ambassador Class (TNG Technical Manual)

USS Adelphi

NCC-26849
Captain Darson
ST Encyclopedia, TNG "Tin Man"

USS Ambassador

NX-10521
TNG Technical Manual (Not explicitly named in this reference)

USS Enterprise

NCC-1701-C (classified as cruiser in alternate timeline)
Captain Rachel Garrett
Lieutenant Richard Castillo
Destroyed in battle over Narendra III
ST Encyclopedia, TNG "Yesterday's Enterprise"

USS Excalibur

NCC-26517
ST Encyclopedia, TNG "Redemption II"
Commander William T. Riker (temporary)
ST Encyclopedia
Borg encounter; possibly destroyed
VOY "Survival Instinct"

USS Exeter

Alternate reality ship
ST Encyclopedia 2, VOY "Non Sequitur"
NCC-26531
ST Encyclopedia 2
(part of the 9th Fleet stationed at Deep Space Nine)
DS9 "You Are Cordially Invited"

USS Gandhi

NCC-26632
ST Encyclopedia, TNG "Second Chances"

USS Horatio

NCC-10532
ST Encyclopedia
Captain Walker Keel
Destroyed by possible saboteurs; debris found in Sector 63
TNG "Conspiracy"

USS Valdemar

NCC-26198
Omnipedia, DS9 "Tribunal"

USS Yamaguchi

NCC-26510
DS9 "Emissary"

USS Zhukov

NCC-62136
(registry is an error in labelling the model)
NCC-26136
ST Encyclopedia, TNG "Data's Day"
Captain Gleason
TNG "Hollow Pursuits"

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Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :

The last known appearance of the Ambassador Class starship was in DS9. The last time I saw it was in the DS9 episode "Emissary."

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Posted by Baloo (Member # 5) on :

I have a completely non-canon explanation: The Excelsior (and its derivitives, such as the Ent-B) was very heavily overdesigned because it was initially supposed to use the Transwarp drive which (I hypothesize) would have caused much greater hull stress than a standard warp drive. (Whew! Long sentence, I know. Trust me, I do talk that way!)

Anyhow, the Excelsior class ships were satisfactory (and perhaps well-liked due to their durability) but the Ambassador was designed to get a better cost/benefit ratio from the resources committed to each ship. The Ambassadors, however, wore out at the same rate as "normal" ships, while the Excelsior class hulls just soldiered along, requiring refits to remain current, but little in the way of hull maintenance.

As the Ambassador class ships reached their "high hull time" the Galaxy class was being introduced. A cost/benefit analysis showed it was more economical to retire the older Ambassadors when they reached the end of their service life than to refurbish them for a different mission. As front-line ships they had been subjected to hard service and the ones which weren't destroyed in the line of duty were definitely showing their age. Restoring one to "like new" condition would have required rebuilding it almost from scratch.

If there is a wide spread of Excelsior class hull registries, this might be due to some Ex-class ships being retired, with the hulls gutted for resources and put into mothballs. Later, the empty hull may have been pulled from storage, refurbished, and recommissioned as a new ship.

Of course, all the above is wild speculation, definitely non-canon, and probably wrong, but I like the idea.

--Baloo

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[This message has been edited by Baloo (edited November 05, 1999).]

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Regarding the real-life reason, I believe the story goes that someone dropped the model and a nacelle broke, and the model is now sitting in some exec's office, or something like that...

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Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

Indeed, I heard one of the Ambassador nacelles broke, too. They could have built a CGI model but they obviously can't be bothered. Can't say I really care, though.

It strikes me that the Excelsior-class is the most common in the fleet. (Just a pointless observation)

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Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

Didn't the unuseable model have something to do with an earthquake?

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Posted by Striker on :

heh, just as well. I personally think the Excelsior is way cooler than the Ambassador(If coolness has anything to do with starships

The design, IMO looks more modern than the Ambassdor class too.

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-Striker
kob.diabloii.net

Posted by Justin_Timberland (Member # 236) on :

And yet, eventually, the Excelsior Class starships must be retired. What then, we see a fleet of Galaxy Class starships? There must be a balance of ships out there. The Excelsior Class, and Miranda Class should be phased out of the fleet gradually though.

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Posted by Lt. Tom on :

Given the Galaxy propensity for blowing up/getting blown up/smacking into things, I doubt we'll be seeing a fleet of them.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Sounds more to me like you're describing the Nebula class... :-)

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Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

I like to think that the Sovereign-class will eventually replace the Excelsior-class. The two designs have some remarkable similarities.

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Posted by Striker on :

What is the excelsior's role in the fleet? More specifically, before the war started. I could see the Soverign class replacing it, but that would have been a huge gap between the replacements. I think the Miranda classes are being replaced by Nebula class, correct?
Just a guy trying to get caught up on some stuff...

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-Striker
kob.diabloii.net

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

It will take time for the Sovs to replace the Excels. It must take good time and effort to build a Sov. There are plenty of relatively recent Excels running around (4xxxx regos), so there's no rush.

I don't think the Nebula-class is suitable to replace the Mirandas. The Nebs are, if anything, alot bigger than the Mirandas. 3 times the crew complement. On the other hand, the Sov is only slightly bigger than the Excel (in terms of crew). The Steamrunner-class would make a nice Miranda replacement.

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

One might also note that the Ambassadors are way bigger than the Excelsiors. Obviously, the former did not replace the latter. So perhaps this is because the two filled a completely different niche? The Excelsiors would be fleet workhorses, the Ambassadors the handful of "elite" ships, and both were being built concurrently. If Starfleet suddenly needed a hundred more ships, it would pick Excelsior instead of Ambassador because the former would have all the necessary goods and not the expensive extras. And it certainly wouldn't begin to design all-new ship types to fill the gap.

Once this kind of logic is applied in a war or two, Starfleet will have large numbers of Excelsiors (or later Akiras) in its hands, while the number of Ambassadors (Nebulas/Galaxies) hasn't grown a bit. So when the time comes for peacetime downscaling, more modern construction projects are put to halt and the 'Fleet tries to make best possible use of the hordes of Excelsiors (Akiras) until the next war comes.

This is a perfect excuse to keep the numbers of Sovereign ships down as long as the TNG movies are going to run. If there is no war in that time, then there is no reason to build more of these ships even though they are better than what Starfleet already has. Newer and better starships only proliferate when there is a sudden need for great numbers of ships and these newer and better ships happen to be the most cost-effective designs available. I suspect that if we get to see hundreds of Sovereigns, it will be in an era where there is an even bigger and newer "elite" design in operation.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Striker on :

Ture, but wasn't the Ambassador supposed to be the stepping block between the Excelsior and Galaxy? I'm sure that was the original intention, but I agree with your analysis on the ships now, Timo. As for the Soverigns, wouldn't Starfleet want to get as many of these advanced ships out there as it could? The excelsior is due for retirement pretty soon, and since the main goal of Starfleet is exploration, it would make sense to want to most advanced explorers out there. Of course, we won't see that because they are exculsive to the movies, but oh well.

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kob.diabloii.net

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

I'd say the replacement for the Excelsior is obvious: the Nebula. Basically, in the past Starfleet probably went in for very generic designs, capable of all kinds of functions. But as the Federation has grown, so have the Fleet's responsibilities changed. Once the Excelsior was the backbone of the fleet, and in a sense it still is - they made so many they still have many functions to fulfil. But now where you'd see one in TNG, on DS9 you often see a Nebula.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

...Except in late DS9, where we usually see an Akira or a Steamrunner! And those are so much more numerous than Nebulas in the fleet action scenes that one is tempted to nominate either of them as the Excelsior successor.

I think it's agreed that the Excelsior was the successor to the Constitution as the "backbone" ship of Starfleet. The Ambassador may have been a failed next-generation "backbone", or then a successful next-generation "elite ship". But the following generation, which includes things like Nebula, Galaxy, New Orleans, Cheyenne, Akira, Freedom, Niagara, Rigel... Now that seems to portray both the Galaxies and the Nebulas as "elite" ships, with Excelsiors still the most popular cannon-fodder (if we exclude the much smaller Mirandas) but with Akiras running as a very good second. And the Akiras ARE a tad smaller and probably cheaper than the Nebula/Galaxy ships.

If we take the Excelsiors as the backbone from "Constitution generation" to "Galaxy generation" without assuming an "Ambassador generation" in between (which seems a good idea since there are no Ambassador-like ships besides the heavy cruiser herself)... Then we more or less have to divide the Galaxy generation into "backbone" and "elite" ships as well. If Galaxy/Nebula is elite, Akira backbone, then all we have to do is explain why we never saw the backbone before DS9. The registries of the Akiras place them before the Galaxies and contemporary to the Nebulas.

Any ideas for the Akira's absence from early TNG? (No, it's not a valid reason to say John Eaves hadn't designed her yet )

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

The Akira is actually a warship, and is only used in extreme situations...

That's the only one I can think of.

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Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

If that were the case, we would have seen it at Wolf 359, wouldn't you say?

I think that Starfleet has three primary grades of ship: backbone, science, and elite. My guess is that originally, Dadelaus was the backbone, Constitution was the elite, and Oberth was the science. Then Dadelaus was retired, making the Constitution both backbone and elite for a time. Then Miranda replaced Oberth, and Excelsior replaced Constitution as the elite. Then Constitution was retired, making Excelsior the backbone, and Ambasadors were built to be the elites. At some point, Nebula replaced Miranda as science. Since the Excelsior turned out to be so durable, the Ambasadors never became the backbone, and were replaced by the Galaxy as the elite force. Now the Excelsiors are being replaced with Soverigns, and the Nebulas are being replaced by Steamrunners (just a guess, as we've never actually had one play a part in the plot of a show). I'm not quite sure where Intrepid and Constellation fit into all that, but maybe there are other, less important and more specialized classifications, like long-range explorer, or escort vessel.

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Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Who says there weren't Akiras at 359?

Mirandas seem to be more for defense/combat functions.

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Posted by Striker on :

Maybe there were no Akiras who could have made it in time for the battle of Wolf 359. I believe Akiras were designed to increase Starfleets combat capabilities. I don't think that they were supposed to replace the Excelsior. I do think they are pretty cools ships though

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-Striker
kob.diabloii.net

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Of the ships present at Wolf 359, we have a positive ID on, what, thirtysomething? Before "Emissary", we never knew there was an Ambassador there; before the Encyclopedia 2.5, we had proof of one or at most two Nebulas, but now we have to add the Endeavour as well.

It is quite possible that three or more of the unseen ships were actually of Akira class, with some Steamrunners and Sabres and Yeagers thrown in as well. If three Nebulas made it to the battle, then surely a similar number of Akiras would have reached the battlefield as well - the types share registry ranges and thus probably construction dates, and DS9 seems to show the Akira to be the more numerous of the two roughly similar types. And it's unlikely that either Akiras or Nebulas would have been hanging around near Earth to create a bias in the numbers, given how the Enterprise always is the only starship anywhere near Earth... Most likely, the three Nebulas arrived from "deep space", and the Akiras could have done likewise.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

No, we don't know for sure the Endeavour was at Wolf 359. All we know is it faced the Borg. There was another thread about this a while back. . .
http://flare.solareclipse.net/Forum9/HTML/000421.html

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

But I thought the new addendum to the Encyclopedia *explicitly* said the Endeavour was present at Wolf 359? I can't really tell since the book isn't out yet where I live, but usually reliable Usenet sources leaked this bit of information...

That is, of course, just an "Okuda fact", not a canon fact... Personally, I don't like the idea of such a big ship fleeing the battle. A battered Oberth, perhaps, but for the Nebula to retreat honorably, it would have to have been missing the port nacelle and most of the starboard one, with a hole in the hull big enough to drive a Constitution through . And I doubt the ship would have remained in service if that were true!

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Wes (Member # 212) on :

I think I saw one of those good 'ol Ambassadors in 'The Emissary' durring a flashback of Wolf359. Was this the Excalibur? Or am I forcing the puzzle peice in to hard?

Just a thought...

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Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

That was the Yamaguchi, and it was an Ambassador.

Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :

Was the USS Yamaguchi named after the US Olypic gold skater Kristy Yamaguchi or someone else? If it was, does she know that her name is forever attached in Star Trek to a ship destroyed in a very nasty battle?

Did Greg Jein name the ship by any chance?

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Figure skating. Star Trek. Figure skating. Star Trek. Wait...wait...no, no, there goes the last of my sanity.

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Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :

Did you know that USS Fleming was named for 1968 Women's figure skating gold medalist Peggy Fleming? And that USS Denver was named for the actor playing the title character in Gilligan's Island?

Sorry. I'm on drugs.

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Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

And there was I thinking it was named for everyone's favourite kamikaze country singer.

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

I will have to check the E III for the Endeavour, but I see no reason why such an "Okuda-canon" fact should be made up.

As for the number of Ambassador class ships, I think that ships of the same class are generally built in batches of about 10 to 20, maybe smaller batches for Galaxy clas ships. They don't built too few ships at a time, for there are considerable cost savings if it is done in parallel. They can't build too many because of capacity limitations. Each new batch has at least slight modifications, after all the batches might be several years apart.

We know of at least two Ambassador versions, this points to two batches. Maybe Starfleet didn't need so many oversized ships at the time, and only some 20 or 30 ships were built altogether. In my opinion the Nebula is the Ambassador class successor. As soon as the Nebula was available, no further Ambassador class ships were built. The only problem is the Zhukov registry, but look at the model: the name is misspelled as well ("Zuhkov"), so why trust in the registry?

The Excelsior has to be replaced by a variety of other ships, owing to the large number of Excelsiors. I don't think Starfleet puts one of their classes into a real mass production (hundreds of ships) while there are so many different classes. Since there is a batch limitation, there is no reason to to build batch after batch of a single design, while other designs are available and perform well too. Still, one of the most suited replacements is the Akira in my opinion.

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