Again, from "The Voyager Conspiracy", Seven was analyzing the attack on the Caretaker's Array in "Caretaker". The computer claims the tricobalt explosives used were capable of "200,000 terracochranes"! What happened to isotons?! Are they saying that tricobalts actually create warp fields to destroy their targets or what?
Oh, and also, it now appears tricobalts are NOT standard weapons, and most starships do not carry them.
------------------ "The things hollow--it goes on forever--and--oh my God!--it's full of stars!" -David Bowman's last transmission back to Earth, 2001: A Space Odyssey
[This message has been edited by The359 (edited November 24, 1999).]
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
Actually, it was 20,000, IIRC. And we've been saying that tricobalts are specialty weapons all along.
------------------ Frank's Home Page "Anarchias de meizon ouk estin kakon." - Creon
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
You know, now that I think about it, they never did explain where that tractor beam came from, OR where that alien got his little tetrion generator...
------------------ Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons; for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
Well, I think we're supposed to believe it was someone looking to make a quick buck (or several million bucks) after all.
------------------ Frank's Home Page "Anarchias de meizon ouk estin kakon." - Creon
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Tricobalts' being nonstandard I don't have a problem with. However, as soon as Seven said the yield was 20000 teracochranes (which, of course, is the same as 20 petacochranes), my first thought was Great, now they've forgotten that cochranes measure distortion of subspace! Then, surprisingly enough, it turned out that they did not forget. Despite how aghast I was at this astounding continuity, my next thought was Uhh... I thought subspace weapons were banned by the second Khitomer Accords...
Perhaps the continuity wasn't all that great after all...
------------------ "General Hammond: Request permission to beat the crap out of this man." -Colonel O'Neill, Stargate: SG-1: "Bane"
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
How about that treaty that limits governments like the Federation and Cardassians to one quadrant? No wonder earth always seems undefended...they're not allowed to have any ships there half the time!
------------------ Frank's Home Page "Anarchias de meizon ouk estin kakon." - Creon
Posted by Justin_Timberland (Member # 236) on :
At least now they mention Kes after her departure. Now can anyone explain that tractor beam, the cloaked ship, and the Cardassians? Cloaking devices are not that common where the Kazon are. How come the Cardassian ship that was in the Delta Quad. vanish? And how come I think that the USS Equinox was the one who stole the extra tetryon generator since apparently that ship was there before Voyager?
------------------ He can't be unoriginal The way I feel is sexual The way I feel is sexual.
He can't be just intellectual The way I feel is sexual The way I feel is sexual When you're next to me.
Posted by Wes (Member # 212) on :
The Equinox did not have a cloak, they would of used it while hidding from Voyager. I think Section 31 has something to do with all this.
About the use of subspace weapons, if that's what the tricobalts are:
Perhaps those weapons were loaded on the Voyager specifically because she was supposed to be flying in the Badlands? The nature of space there might prevent the spreading of the space-ripping effect, while OTOH making conventional weapons less effective.
If this were true, one would think tricobalt weapons would have been in use during the DS9 war. Perhaps Worf's ship carried them when lost in the Badlands? We never really saw anybody with a Federation starship fight a space battle in that region, save for Sisko's and Eddington's little trick with runabout impulse exhaust...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by NeghVar (Member # 62) on :
Sounds like the Federation is just as guilty as the Son'a and their Isolytic torpedoes...
------------------ Spoken in Klingon, with a distinct Scottish accent: "If it's not Klingon...It's crap!"
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
While I have no real idea yet what the episode is about, I wonder what is the use of giving the explosive force of a (subspace) weapon in cochranes. Cochranes are supposed to be the measure for subspace stress, where the cochrane value equals the v/c rate. This is independent of the ship's size, meaning that a Galaxy and a Danube travelling at Warp 2 both have a field distortion of 8 cochrane and v/c=8. So the subspace weapon creates a certain (maximum) field distortion, but this doesn't tell us anything about the power or energy of the weapon. We would have to do a three-dimensional integration over the volume of subspace to determine the actual energy/power output, unless the subspace rupture has a certain profile and the maximum distortion is given, thereby also telling us the overall power. If a weapon with another profile were used, a comparison of the figures would not be possible in this case. I don't expect anyone to understand what I mean, I don't do it myself.
------------------ "Naomi Wildman, sub-unit of Ensign Samantha Wildman, state your intentions." (VOY: "Infinite Regress") Ex Astris Scientia
Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :
Actually, even the Kazon did have rudiementary cloaks that Voyager couldn't penetrate until "State of Flux".
------------------ Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Well, I've just realized that there is one possible explanation for tricobalts' being subspace weapons, yet still being used. Perhaps the second Khitomer Accords only came about in the years between "Caretaker" and Insurrection...
------------------ "General Hammond: Request permission to beat the crap out of this man." -Colonel O'Neill, Stargate: SG-1: "Bane"
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Damn! *I* should have thought of that! Of course! What do we know of the thing called "Khitomer Accords"? Well, duh, that Gowron denounced and then reinstated them in 2372-73, years after the Voyager sailed out! *Naturally* the treaty signed after "By Inferno's Light" would be called the "2nd Khitomer Accords"...
So are we supposed to think that subspace weapons were carried aboard Starfleet ships until 2373? Not impossible at all, although I can't think of references to them right now.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Alshrim Dax (Member # 258) on :
My problem with this is how did TUVOK of all people, miss the tractor beam in the initial sensor sweep during the initial investigation of the blast.
In the ep, they left the whole thing unresolved. It's like once they realized Seven had lost her marbles temperarily, they were no longer concerned about that tractor beam..
I'm thinking the whole thing never exsisted in the first place. Can it be that nothing was pushed into sub-space to begin with. All a product of Seven's imagination??? Or did they leave it the way they did for some future episode. I mean they have written a few episodes about people who either live or travel through subspace.
My bet. They will never mention this ep again!
------------------ Alshrim Dax
Posted by Captain Stark (Member # 70) on :
They way I understood (IIRC) is that Seven found evidence of the tractor beam from Nelix's sensor logs from his ship.
------------------ -=/\=- Captain Stark http://beam.to/readyroom
"The man on the top walks a lonely path. The chain of command is often a noose." Dr. Leonard McCoy --Obsession, Stardate: 3619.2
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
No, the tractor beam was visible on the Voyager sesor logs before she got Neelix' ship's records. Besides, the stuff from Neelix' ship would have been regarding the months before "Caretaker". At the time of the battle w/ the Kazon and the destruction of the array, Neelix' ship was in the shuttlebay, so it wouldn't have even had its sensors running.
Perhaps the "tractor beam" was simply a sensor glitch that ended up visibly looking like a tractor beam, but really wasn't.
------------------ "General Hammond: Request permission to beat the crap out of this man." -Colonel O'Neill, Stargate: SG-1: "Bane"
Posted by Individual 5748 on :
I agree with TSN on the tractor beam deal.
------------------ "Questions, comments, bring them to me. Problems, take them to Kinis."
Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
Well, remember, the computer never said it was a tractor beam, Seven merely assumed
------------------ "The things hollow--it goes on forever--and--oh my God!--it's full of stars!" -David Bowman's last transmission back to Earth, 2001: A Space Odyssey
Posted by Alshrim Dax (Member # 258) on :
That's what I'm thinkin' The359
------------------ Alshrim Dax
Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :
Uhm, about the Kithomer accords:
Some lt. on the Enterprise-C in 'Yesterday's Enterprise' said something about a second Kithomer accord. The first is probably the one in ST6, the second could be the one including the ban on subspace weapons. If that's true, that accord is about 25 years old at the time of 'Caretaker'....
Posted by Baloo (Member # 5) on :
Is it possible that the second Khitomer accords may have contained a clause permitting the use of subspace weapons under certain restricted circumstances? It is also possible that if the original agreement did not, such a clause might have been negotiated in the intervening 25 years.
--Baloo
------------------ "It is required of every man," the Ghost returned, "that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellowmen, and travel far and wide; and if that spirit goes not forth in life, it is condemned to do so after death. It is doomed to wander through the world -- oh, woe is me! -- and witness what it cannot share, but might have shared on earth, and turned to happiness!" -- Jacob Marley's Ghost (A Christmas Carol -- Charles Dickens) http://members.tripod.com/~Bob_Baloo/index.htm
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"The Second Accords of Khitomer, Amendment 1: Use of Subspace Weaponry"? I can live w/ that...
------------------ "Is he live or dead? Has he thoughts within his head?" -Black Sabbath, "Iron Man"
Posted by devinclancy on :
I believe the reference in "Yesterday's Ent" is "they were negotiating a peace treaty when we left."
They couldn't have been the Second Khitomer accords because the first ones hadn't been invented. Khitomer was first mentioned in 3rd season TNG in "Sins of the Father". That was 1989. Trek VI, in 1991 (during season 5 of TNG) used Khitomer as the location of the treaty conference as a reference to "Sins..." That was the first mention of Khitomer as anything other than Worf's home.
So there were at least two treaties prior to the 2340's, but not explicitly the second khitomer accords. I'm inclinded to believe that tri-cobalt devices were relatively new technology (a spin off of a static warp shell?) that were quickly outlawed during the talks to re-unite the Klingons and the Federation. (after Voyager left)
Janeway's just the type to carry them anyway, as long as they're not strictly illegal. She's done enough other questionable things...
-Devin Clancy
[This message has been edited by devinclancy (edited November 29, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by devinclancy (edited November 29, 1999).]
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Ah, but we're talking about fictional timelines here. We didn't learn about Picard's artificial heart until, uh, that one episode in which it first appeared. But that doesn't mean that he didn't have it in previous ones.
------------------ "It's just like the story of the grasshopper and the octopus. All year long, the grasshopper kept burying acorns for winter while the octopus mooched off his girlfriend and watched TV. But then the winter came and the grasshopper died and the octopus ate all his acorns, and then he got a racecar. Is any of this getting through to you?." -- Futurama
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Er, I think Devin is just saying that one can say for sure that there wasn't a reference to Second Khitomer Accords in "Yesterday's Enterprise", without needing to rewatch the episode. The real-world timeline takes care of that.
And if that much is true, then it becomes more likely that the 2nd Khitomer Accords could be the ones signed after "By Inferno's Light". It still remains a possibility that there could be a reference to them in some episode or movie that takes place before Voyager's departure. I don't remember such a reference now - anybody have any ideas?
If not, then one could say that tricobalts were introduced shortly before "Caretaker", found to be of dubious worth and unacceptable risk after that episode, and banned by Feds and Klingons alike in the treaty signed after "By Inferno's Light".
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
But the treaty reinstated on DS9 was just the original one between the UFP and the Klingon Empire. Why should the Son'a be constrained by a treaty that only involved two powers?
------------------ "It's just like the story of the grasshopper and the octopus. All year long, the grasshopper kept burying acorns for winter while the octopus mooched off his girlfriend and watched TV. But then the winter came and the grasshopper died and the octopus ate all his acorns, and then he got a racecar. Is any of this getting through to you?." -- Futurama
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Well, why would the Son'a be constrained by any treaty? Of all the powers I can think of who might have signed something called the "Second Khitomer Accords", they wouldn't be one.
------------------ "Is he live or dead? Has he thoughts within his head?" -Black Sabbath, "Iron Man"
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Then why even bother to mention that such weapons are banned? I mean, when the Borg showed up, nobody said "Hey, isn't kidnapping and assimilation into a monsterous hivemind illegal under the Treaty of Antimony?"
A bit of hyperbole, yes. What I'm getting at is, in order for the Second Khitomer Accords to carry the sort of weight they seemed to, they should apply to more governments than just the UFP and the Klingons. That is, a treaty signed by fifty states carries more...popular opinion, you could say; then a treaty signed by two or three. Beyond that, if I recall correctly, Gowron merely resigned the original treaty, and while that might have included something about subspace weapons, why say the second accords when its just the same as the first?
Then again, I'm probably just making too much out of this.
------------------ "It's just like the story of the grasshopper and the octopus. All year long, the grasshopper kept burying acorns for winter while the octopus mooched off his girlfriend and watched TV. But then the winter came and the grasshopper died and the octopus ate all his acorns, and then he got a racecar. Is any of this getting through to you?." -- Futurama
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Well, my point was that the line in Insurrection was a really stupid thing for them to say, like your example about the Borg.
And I think I like the idea that the subspace weapon thing is a recent amendment to the SKA ("Second Khitomer Accords", of course). It makes the most sense, all things considered.
------------------ "Is he live or dead? Has he thoughts within his head?" -Black Sabbath, "Iron Man"
Posted by Laz1701 on :
I don't know if anyone's aware of it, but tricobalts were first mentioned in the TOS episode "A Taste of Armageddon". When the Enterprise entered orbit of Eminiar VII, it was classified destroyed by a tricobalt device.
That used to be one of the main selling points for the "tricobalts ain't nothing special" argument. But it seems highly unlikely that Vendikar had subspace weapons.
------------------ "I wish that everything went just as I wish everything would go." -- John Linnell
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
Yes. According to the Star Trek Compendium, Anan 7 tells Kirk that the Enterpise has been "destroyed" by a tricobalt satellite explosion in the computer war between Vendikar and Eminiar VII. Although the name "tricobalt" may have originated in this episode, whether such a weapon actually existed at that time is debatable.
------------------ When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
They could be two different weapons. Perhaps the TOS tricobalts were simple explosives. The later ones are based on the same technology (hence the name), but have had some sort of subspace thing added. This change of technology w/ retention of name is not unheard of today. A modern neutron bomb produces a much different effect than the first fission bombs, but they are both "nuclear weapons".
------------------ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach him to use the 'net, and he won't bother you for weeks.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
It's also possible that the subspace reaction might somehow be created by the use of this tricobalt stuff. Sort of like how you can use nuclear bombs to propel spacecraft.
What I mean is, the tricobalt explosion might power whatever creates the subspace effect.
------------------ "I wish that everything went just as I wish everything would go." -- John Linnell
Posted by Black Knight (Member # 134) on :
I believe that Riker was appaled that the Feds would be involved with a species that would use subspace weapons. The fact that they were banned by the 2nd Kitohmer Accords would just mean that they were illegal for the Feds and Klingons, but would sort of say that if you use subspace weapons, then the Federation will be alot less likely to open relations with you. It doesn't mean that everybody in the Alpha Quadrant can't use them, it just means that the Feds won't like it if you do, but really can't do much about it. Someone can lodge a protest of someone using them, then the Feds will probably try to negotiate some sort of treaty to prevent the usage of subspace weapons with that race.
------------------ Quark-"Stop. Or I'll disintigrate this hostage."
20th Century General-"With Your Finger?"
Quark-"With my death ray."
20th Century General-"Looks alot like a finger to me."
