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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

In the TNG episode "Cause and Effect", we learn of the starship Bozeman, a Soyuz class ship that has been decommissioned for at least 80 years. Since they traveled into the future, the Bozeman is now in our time. In Generations and First Contact, we hear of the Bozeman again. FC confirms that she is still in service and that Capt. Bateson is still in command. My question is this:

At the end of Generations, one of the ships to evacuate the Ent D crew is a Miranda class ship. Is it possible that the Bozeman (which was close by at the time of the movie) was refit to a Miranda class to correct whatever design flaw the Souyz class had which caused it to be decommissioned? And is it further possible that this Miranda class in Generations was in fact the Bozeman?

Does the Encyclopedia give a name for this ship? If not, what do you think?

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"Resolve and thou art free."

Posted by Justin_Timberland (Member # 236) on :

I doubt that the USS Bozeman was returned into a Miranda Class configuration. It can be useful it the Soyuz setup, but it would just need some internal hardware and software upgrades.

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He can't be unoriginal
The way I feel is sexual
The way I feel is sexual.

He can't be just intellectual
The way I feel is sexual
The way I feel is sexual
When you're next to me.

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Yes, but the Soyuz was retired from service for some reason. It only served a very short short time before being taken out of service. It's never really made since that Starfleet would keep a ship in service whose class was retired just because it jumped through time. They must've done something to fix whatever was wrong with it, a design flaw or whatever.

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"Resolve and thou art free."

Posted by Baloo (Member # 5) on :

Remember that the time period you are referring to is a time when the Federation needs all the ships it can get, with the recent (or perhaps still ongoing) Dominion war and other troubles. It's probable that the Bozeman was decommissioned along with the rest of the Soyuz class ships, then reactivated. I would imagine that Bateman (as well as much of the rest of his crew) were assigned to the Bozeman (and probable others of the Soyuz class) when it was recommissioned, due to his familiarity with the type.

I'm sure the members of the Bozeman's engineering crew were highly sought by other Soyuz class vessels due to their familiarity with a somewhat obsolete design.

--Baloo

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Posted by Epoch (Member # 136) on :

The Soyuz class could also have been decomissioned because they were warships. The Soyuz does have the big gun on the back of it. They may have made the Soyuz to fight threats like the klingons but when that was over they just got rid of them.

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quite a disputed defintion.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

I believe that "big gun" was supposed to be a sensor assembly of some sort.

And I would have to guess that the other Soyuzes probably weren't even around anymore. Doesn't the DS9TM say that DS9's phasers or something like that came off of Soyuz-class ships? Probably, the ships were disassembled after decommission and the parts went into storage to be used when needed. If the class really was decommissioned soon after introduction due to some design flaw, it makes sense that they wouldn't just toss them in a scrap heap and never touch them again. The parts were all still relatively new, not worn-out like most decommissioned ships.

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-C. Montgomery Burns, The Simpsons

Posted by bear (Member # 124) on :

I agree with TSN, the tech manual clearly states that there was a large need for extra hardware on stations, specifically DS9, and that phaser components from the Soyuz class were used to shore up defenses on installations. Starfleet is worse than my parent; they never throw anything away.

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Posted by Baloo (Member # 5) on :

Unless there was a serious design flaw in the Soyuz class vessels, they still would have mothballed the hulls after gutting them of any immediately needed parts. After all, it takes less time to install new equipment in an existing hull than it does to build a new hull and then install new equipment in that.

--Baloo

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

It seems odd, though, that Starfleet would decommission all the Soyuzes in the 2280s, and mothball them so permanently that nobody in "Cause and Effect" thought that the Bozeman could be a reactivated ship with a legitimate 2360s mission and crew - yet would at some point equip the mothballed ships with *type 9 strip phasers* just so that they could later be scavenged for DS9!

The entire chapter on phasers in the DS9 TM has to be viewed with suspicion anyway. Apparently, Rick changed his mind about the types of phasers aboard the station more than once, and failed to edit out all the earlier ideas. So some lines say "type 9", some say "type 10"
and some "type 11" when referring essentially to the same type of phaser. Does the station have all three types, or just two - and which two?

As for refitting the Bozeman into a Miranda... Too extensive a refit IMHO. The bridge module could be changed, and the sensor pods removed; but sawing off the extended hull and remounting the impulse engines would seem unnecessary and too time-consuming. Why not refit the Bozeman into an Akira class ship, then?

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Justin_Timberland (Member # 236) on :

Hmm, I guess you can turn the Bozeman into an Akira Class starship after you stretch the spaceframe or something. That or melt the entire ship and make the molten metal into an Akira spaceframe.

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He can't be unoriginal
The way I feel is sexual
The way I feel is sexual.

He can't be just intellectual
The way I feel is sexual
The way I feel is sexual
When you're next to me.

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Of course the "real" reason that it seems so odd too us that a class so similar to the Miranda class would have been so decommed after so short a time is rather simple: The Soyuz class was supposed to be an emtirely new model. It wasn't supposed to look anything like the Miranda Class. But due to time and budget restrictions, TPTB decided to modify an existing model. It was a pretty silly mistake IMHO.

But back to reality, I agree that there are probably no more Soyuzes in service right now. All the frames would have been gutted long ago and I doubt Starfleet would put the time and resources into refurbishing an old, defective design when it could just as easily be sprucing up newer, proven ships. When the war started, there had to have been hundreds of construction contracts (my nod to NCC) available to finish. Why divide personel to go dig up an 80 year old design, fix it's problems and send it out?

But you're right, I doubt that the shuttle bay was the problem with the class, so even if the ship was refit, it was probably not done in a manner that would make it look like the Miranda we saw in Generations.

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"Resolve and thou art free."

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Why was the ship retired in the first place (the real-world motivations for the episode writers notwithstanding)? Because she was conceptually flawed to begin with? Because she featured flawed equipment? Outdated equipment? Because her mission had become outdated?

The first seems unlikely. Sure, this is one of the very few ships that utterly lacks torpedoes, but the designers must have done that deliberately. And the other components of the ship seemed to perform just dandy (and weren't all that different from regular Miranda or Constitution components).

Flawed or outdated equipment could have been changed in a refit, unless it was very bulky or tightly integrated. I doubt the big shuttlebay could ever be considered outdated, but it may have had a structural weakness that could not be fixed. The "sensor pods" may have become outdated, but replacement would seem easy.

Most likely, the mission (Sigint? Shuttlecarrier? Special weapons platform, despite the claims that those big spires were sensors?) of this very special ship *had* become outdated. But why could a new mission not be adopted?

Probably the retirement was a combination of factors: outdated equipment and outdated mission, combined with a tight budget that did not allow extensive adaptation to a new mission. The ships were retired in the middle of the "Klingon crisis", so military budgets probably soared - but perhaps Starfleet did not want to spend a single credit in upgrading its sigint capabilities when all the dough was needed for producing actual fighting ships?

If this is true, then the TNG Starfleet could easily afford to refit the ship anyway. But if she was built from keel up as a sigint platform, then she must be *grossly* outdated in a hundred years (sigint gets outdated on time scales of *months*), so Starfleet could not use her in that role without essentially building her again from keel up. And it might be economically more sound to build a new ship on the credits a refit into a fighting vessel would cost in the TNG era.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by bear (Member # 124) on :

Is it possible that the Soyuz was viewed as a spy ship by the Klingons, and that as an olive branch the entire class was retired, so actually their design wasn't out dated they just were considered inappropriate for use by the federation. The sensor technology was probably incorporated into all starships.

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Given the tremendous structural similarity to the Miranda class, I really can't think of any reason why these ships should have been retired except integrated equipment problems. Perhaps they used new nacelles or were designed with a new warp core that proved to be flawed. LaForge said the ships were retired, not scrapped. Perhaps the faulty equipment was removed and the structures were modified accordingly to turn the Soyuz class into another Miranda variant we haven't seen or some other class of ship, then recommissioned as that class.

This lack of reason for retirement is why I say the design of the ship was silly mistake. I would rather have seen an older looking Constitution variant (some kind of quick kitbash even) than have the Soyuz look almost exactly like the Miranda. Dems da breaks, I guess.

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"Resolve and thou art free."

Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :

I agree Aban- a crappy looking kitbash would've been much better than a Miranda in a not so clever disguise.

Now for my theory: The Soyuz class was actually very old. A contemporary of the original Constitutions. Like the Constitutions, the vessels still in service by the early 2270's were given refits. This refit type was never put into production as a new starship however. R & D had already came up with a similar design (that apparently had enough non-visible differences to warrant a new class name) to fill the duties of the old Soyuz. Thus when the Soyuz's were retired in the 2280's due to old age, the Miranda class took over in its place.

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[This message has been edited by Obi Juan (edited December 10, 1999).]

Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

Well, I agree that the Soyuzes may be older then we think. Take the Galaxy/Nebula problem. One would think, from appearance, that the Nebula derived from the Galaxy, when in fact, the Nebulas came first. It is possible that the Soyuzs came first, and the Mirandas were based off the Soyuz and formed a new class.

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"The things hollow--it goes on forever--and--oh my God!--it's full of stars!" -David Bowman's last transmission back to Earth, 2001: A Space Odyssey

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

But keep in mind that the Bozeman rego NCC-1941 implies that it was built/commissioned after the Reliant NCC-1864 and other early Miranda-class ships.

It is reasonable to assume that the Bozeman we here of in Generations and First Contact is Bateman's. We just can't be sure that it is the Miranda vessel(s) we actually get to see.

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Dax's Ships of STAR TREK

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Well, registries aren't necessarily chronological, especially the ones from that era.

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Posted by Lt. Tom on :

Dax: I initially thought the same thing you did. However, it would be possible for the regos to be chronological, especially if we say that the Bozeman was one of the last Soyuz-class ships to be commissioned/built. Nothing says that Starfleet had to stop making Soyuzes once the Mirandas went into production.

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

I think this whole problem stems from the fact that they were going to build an entirely new class of ship from the TOS era... but they ran out of funding for the episode... Thus the line in CandE was left in about its decommissioning date... and then further references i.e. the tech manual references were made because of its similarity to the Miranda - when it should have looked like a TOS ship.

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"Its a CLOCK!" - Sisko, "Dramatis Personae" DS9.

Posted by Striker on :

in some of the opening scenes of DS:9, the panoramic view of the space station often shows a miranda-looking vessel orbiting near by. Thing is, it has one of those big guns on it. Any one else seen this? IMO, it's a Soyuz class vessel because they were taken out of mothballs for the war.

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-Striker
kob.diabloii.net

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

Yes, Striker, I remember seeing that Miranda-ish vessel orbiting the far side (from the camera) of DS9. For some reason I never bothered to take a good look at it. I should have though because it always struck me as looking a bit unusual. Do you remember what ep(s) you saw it in?

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets)
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK

Posted by Striker on :

Sorry, can't remember. I'm sure I've seen them in one of the Season 7 episodes, but it's been in alot of opening scenes.

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-Striker
kob.diabloii.net

Posted by Brown_supahero (Member # 83) on :

Personally I would not mothball a ship 5 Months out of spacedock, perserved by a temporal anomoly, and reasilly refited by 2370's technology

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

Although I haven't had a good look, I suppose the DS9 ship might be the Bozeman. Even so, I have to wonder what sort of condition the Bozeman would be in after facing a Borg cube (in FC).

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets)
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK

Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

Well, in the comm chatter in FC, they told the Defiant and Bozeman to fall back to Mobile Position 1 or something, which means they were sort of on the outskirts of the battle, and less likely to take damage.

Of course, the way Defiant looked, Bozeman might have taken one helluva pounding...

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"The things hollow--it goes on forever--and--oh my God!--it's full of stars!" -David Bowman's last transmission back to Earth, 2001: A Space Odyssey

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Mobile Position 1 sounds quite a bit more dangerous than, say, Mobile Position 47 - let alone Static Position 1, which would mean the distance between the ship and the Cube grows at warp 9.8 or so!

In any case, the Defiant and the Bozeman seemed to have some sort of special status in the fleet if they warranted such a special order. Perhaps both ships were Defiant class vessels, or at least heavy-duty Borg-fighters? Or perhaps both had an uppity renegade as captain, and were slipping from their designated positions for a better view of the battle?

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

I like Obi Juan's idea that the Soyuz's were refit same as the Constitutions when the new nacelles came out but that the Miranda's were built from scratch with the new technology. In fact, it's possible that some of the tech from the refit Soyuz' was transferred to the brand spanking new Mirandas.

Of course the creator's budget blunder is the real reason, but I'm afraid I just can't accept that...

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"Resolve and thou art free."

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

Here is what I think of the whole Bozeman/Soyuz issue:

-I go with Timo's suggestion that the Soyuz has been retired because they fulfilled a very special purpose and were suddenly not needed any longer. They might have been rebuilt to Mirandas. Otherwise it would make no sense to take a relatively new ship NCC-1941 out of service. Design flaws can always be corrected.

-I think the Miranda is the original ship and the Soyuz is a special version, rather than the Soyuz being some kind of Miranda prototype. It is unlikely that the ship is stripped of the additional pods and hull extensions and suddenly has better performance. The registries are another reason why the Soyuz is probably newer. There were almost definitely much fewer Soyuzes than Mirandas.

-The producers are obviously very fond of the small towns of Bozeman and Billings and the insignificant state of Montana. No offense to those who might live there. This is probably the reason why a Bozeman *had to be* in both Generations and FC. The Encyclopedia gives us the seemingly obvious explanation that it was the good old Bozeman NCC-1941 and Capt. Bateman.
Objection: Temporal Prime Directive. The ship has to be sent back to where (better: when) it belongs. I'm pretty sure that such an order should exist.

-The DS9 phaser banks. Carelessness. Rick or whoever wrote it was looking for an old ship type from which the parts could have been taken. He made the worst possible choice. Neither were there suited ship*s* available, nor would they have had suited phaser emitters. I read the text several times, and it didn't make any sense. I don't want to go with complicated explanations of refitted mothballed ships.

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

I do sorta like the idea that several Soyuzes were made for a specific assignment or set of assignments and were then pulled from service, possibly to be refit somehow into more general vehicles. Either way, the Soyuz class would've been decommissioned. LaForge never really gave any circumstances surrounding the decommissioning. In fact he may not even know for sure what happened (kinda like us...)

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"Resolve and thou art free."

Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

Another possible reason for the retirement of the Soyuz. Around 2280, Starfleet was having a major "groth spurt" with ships. Now, it's possible that the Soyuzs require refit around 2280. But, since Starfleet didn't need them all that much anymore, instead of wasting the materials required to refit them, the materials could be used for newer ships, and the Soyuzs would merely be retired.

An example of this is that recent Los Angeles (688i) Class Submarines are being decommissioned only 5 or 10 years after launch. The Navy's reason for this is simply that the massive number of LAs are no longer required, especially with the new Seawolf and Virginia classes coming in. Therefore refiting these ships would be futile, so they just scrap them.

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"The things hollow--it goes on forever--and--oh my God!--it's full of stars!" -David Bowman's last transmission back to Earth, 2001: A Space Odyssey

[This message has been edited by The359 (edited December 15, 1999).]

Posted by Lt. Tom on :

Bernd: I disagree that the Bozeman would have been sent back, since she would have been recorded as missing. Sending her back would contaminate the timeline.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Interestingly enough, the registry of the Bozeman actually reads NCC-1841 on the lower hull, falling smack in the middle of the pool of early Mirandas.

And for those familiar with fanfic registries, there is a nice gap between, was it 1832 and 1843? All we have there are very old Mirandas - the transport-converted Lantree and a couple of "SF Academy" game ships. NCC-1941 in turn would conflict with some fanfic registries I'd hate to lose - Knox class I think. For those with good stop-motion VCRs, both 1841 and 1941 get equal screen time...

My favorite theory wrt the fanfic ships of "Ships of Star Fleet" has the 1850-range Suryas accompanied by ten 1830-range Mirandas back in the 2240s. The former get refitted to Avengers as stated, while the slightly inferior Mirandas become roll-bar-less ships or are partially modified into sigint Soyuzes. The modifications wreak havoc on the structural integrity of the ships - the added boxlike aft hulls and the relocation of the impulse engines create so much stress that the ships are all bent and twisted by the 2280s. They cannot be modified back into Avengers because of this, and are retired before they'd be torn apart.

Thus, the sigint mission seals the fate of the ships only indirectly - Starfleet still needs sigint ships in the mid-2280s in the cold war against the Klingons, but the Soyuzes are shipwrecks that just haven't quite sunken yet. The regular Avengers succumb to old age only decades later, and are replaced by those 31000-range variants that are all called Mirandas in an effort of simplification and streamlining (in my version, USS Miranda predates USS Surya by a few weeks and thus gets to give her name to the whole superclass).

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Where is the 1841 visible? I have the episode on tape and I've never seen it.

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"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

"NCC-1941 in turn would conflict with some fanfic registries I'd hate to lose..."

Well, that's what happens when someone tries to fill up practically every possible registry, expecting TPTB to work around them...

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

What's a "sigint" ship?

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Posted by Lt. Tom on :

SIGnal INTelligence.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Yup, signals intelligence is one form of electronic warfare that fortunately does not have the anachronistic word "electronic" in it. It would be awkward to speak of "duotronic warfare" or "optronic warfare"...

And 1841 is visible when the Bozeman hits the nacelle of the E-D. Not very clearly, perhaps, but I happen to have a good recording of that episode. Seems like a very odd mistake for the modelers to make, especially since 1941 was an in-joke made by Jein himself. Perhaps an underling was given the task of scraping away the old lettering (which might still have been that of the old Saratoga from STIV, since the Lantree and the Br*ttain were only filmed from above), and only removed and repainted the last two? It would be interesting to see what the nacelle registries say: are they still 1867 for the Saratoga, or perhaps 1864 for the Reliant?

OTOH, the model would have been photographed with the ventral side up for those scenes, so the incorrect registry would have been easy for Jein to see if he took part in the shooting. Perhaps it was too late at that stage. Strange in any case.

Timo Saloniemi