I'm designing a ship for myself (I really can't draw on a computer so unless I scan it you'll probably never see it) and I've been asking myself about what's in those damn engines, plasma injectors in particular. The TNG manual stated that there was a pair of injectors for each warp coil segment but in TNG "Eye of the Beholder" I believe, they only show a single pair at the front of the nacelle. In addition, the Sci-Pub poster of the Ent-nil show a single set of plasma injectors for each nacelle. I know that the show takes precedence, but is there anything I've forgotten? What should I do?
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-If you ask me, I think continuity is highly overrated...
*Brannon Braga*
-Where were you when the brains were handed out?
*Sonic the Hedgehog*
Anyway, that's an interesting question. "Eye of the Beholder" does seem to suggest that there's just a single injection system in the front of each nacelle. However, we really can't see much of what's going on back in the rest of the nacelle. It's possible that there are injectors set between each set of segments, and they were just hidden from view.
I think this is one of those cases where it's impossible to say definitively what's going on. If you want to believe the TM, go ahead. If you want to believe that "Eye of the Beholder" refutes the TM, that's fine, too. No-one can really prove anything one way or the other.
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"...more people buy Harry Potter novels than the works of Alexander Pope, but that's no measure of their quality."
-Tom Aylward-Nally, December 29, 1999
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USS Allegiance LCARS Database
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"...more people buy Harry Potter novels than the works of Alexander Pope, but that's no measure of their quality."
-Tom Aylward-Nally, December 29, 1999
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-If you ask me, I think continuity is highly overrated...
*Brannon Braga*
-Where were you when the brains were handed out?
*Sonic the Hedgehog*
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USS Allegiance LCARS Database
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-If you ask me, I think continuity is highly overrated...
*Brannon Braga*
-Where were you when the brains were handed out?
*Sonic the Hedgehog*
there is only one plasma injector per naccele he also has a pic to back it up .
Also i believe that the tech manuals arnt canon so im going with what ive seen on the show.
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"I am First Omet'iklan, and I am dead. As of this moment, we are all dead. We go into battle to reclaim our lives. This we do gladly, for we are Jem'Hadar. Remember, victory is life."
-- Omet'iklan Ds9:"To the Death"
http://www.geocities.com/travlyn2/index.htm
[This message has been edited by Dhunter (edited January 02, 2000).]
Originally, I always assumed the warp field was created by the plasma injectors of each coil segment opening one after the other along the axis of the nacelle. The converging plasma stream would collide in the exact middle of each coil and SOMEHOW it would energize the coils. This would then create a peristaltic(?) force along the warp field. Well, that's how I used to understand it.
If we accept the picture, it means there's a single pair of injector per nacelle. Since we lack any canon info on this, we have to theorize. I propose that each injector pair is continusly open; it is the plasma pulse from the warp core which, while passing between the coils along the nacelle, somehow energize them.
I read 2 years ago an interesting theory dealing with the creation of a "Tensor string" with the plasma or something within the nacelle but I don't remember any of the details. Has anyone read it too?
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-If you ask me, I think continuity is highly overrated...
*Brannon Braga*
-Where were you when the brains were handed out?
*Sonic the Hedgehog*
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USS Allegiance LCARS Database
Ok, let's summarize! Canon says there's one pair in each, the Tech Manual says there's one pair per coil segment. Since the Tech Manual was the first Trek book I ever got and I always considered it better than some of the Tech shown on screen (especially in VOY), I'll go with it. Case closed (for me at least)!
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-If you ask me, I think continuity is highly overrated...
*Brannon Braga*
-Where were you when the brains were handed out?
*Sonic the Hedgehog*
The diagram shows a cutaway of a Galaxy Class Naccle , in this Diagram you can see the pair of Plasma Injectors in the rear of the Naccele .
I know you said thge case was closed but i thought i could just shine a little bit more light on the subject.
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"Marge .. Do you have other men in this House ? .. Radioactive men?"
~Homer "The Simpsons"
http://www.geocities.com/travlyn2
! Just kidding...However, now there's something I don't understand. We now that the plasma stream is responsible for the creation of a warp field. But why is the stream heading toward the FRONT of the ship? I don't really know how to say this, but for the ship to move foward, the coils must be energized by the plasma from front to rear to create a peristaltic motion, not the other way around. And what's that big conduit on the bottom of the nacelle? Anyone care to theorize on the subject?
By the way, that picture and the fact that the injectors are in the rear contradicts the Galaxy MSD seen on screen. In it, the plasma conduits from the warp core end up in the front of the pylon and are connected to some kind of big "plasma distribution system" or something. I know MSDs aren't supposed to represent the ship exactly but I consider them canon unless proven otherwise (which in this case it has been).
Plus, how do they send plasma from both the lower and upper injector ? If both are synchronised, there are two possibilities:
-The plasma conduit, once under the nacelle, climbs inside the wall of the engine and upon reaching the middle of the height, it splits in two, one going up to the upper injector and one going down to the lower one. Quite complicated.
Like this:
.................____________
................I.....................I
................I.......__..........I
................I......I....^..Injector
................I..+<...............I..<--..Nacelle Hull
................I..I...I__v..Injector
................I..I____...........I
................I____...I...____I
...........................I
Warp core ______I..<--..Plasma Conduit
-Under the nacelle, the plasma conduit splits in two. One stream goes to the top of the nacelle to the upper injector while the other one's plasma is somehow delayed for a short while (to insure synchronisation with the upper injector) before going straight to the lower injector.
Like this:
.................____________
................I...____...........I
................I..I.......I..........I
................I..I.......^..Injector
................I..I..................I..<--..Nacelle Hull
................I..I.......v..Injector
................I..I____I..........I
................I____...I...____I
...........................I
Warp core ______I..<--..Plasme Conduit
Does it make any sense?
Tell me what you think!
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-If you ask me, I think continuity is highly overrated...
*Brannon Braga*
-Where were you when the brains were handed out?
*Sonic the Hedgehog*
[This message has been edited by TerraZ (edited January 04, 2000).] - Sorry for the crappy ASCII TSN, it looks much better in DOS but I made them a little easier to understand. It just shows I much I love you 
!
(That's a joke just in case you take it the wrong way...)
[This message has been edited by TerraZ (edited January 04, 2000).]
Anyway, I don't think that cutaway of the nacelle is right. Everything seems to suggest that the plasma injectors (if there is just the one set) are in the front of the nacelle. It doesn't make any sense, otherwise.
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"...more people buy Harry Potter novels than the works of Alexander Pope, but that's no measure of their quality."
-Tom Aylward-Nally, December 29, 1999
I was also puzzled by that schematic , i also thought that the Injectors were at the front of the Naccele.
But in my Surfing I found another pic (yes yet another pic to further confuse *LOL*)
This Picture supports the Schematic's accuracy so now im even more confused , arg! Why do I do this to myself? :-)
My thoery is that the injectors are in the back of naccele and they use some kind forcefield to manipulate the flow of the plamsa in the naccele .
The website i found this pic on is pretty cool buts mostly about cloaks
http://members.aol.com/jgrinter/cloaking.html
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"Marge .. Do you have other men in this House ? .. Radioactive men?"
~Homer "The Simpsons"
http://www.geocities.com/travlyn2
[This message has been edited by Dhunter (edited January 04, 2000).]
BTW, I think the cutaway is from the "fact files"; the guys how composed that picture probably watched "Eye of the Beholder" and took a close look at the Dhunter's pic.. and I still don't think that one proves that there are only 2 injectors. I believe the Technical Manual.
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USS Allegiance LCARS Database
Otherwise, I don't see why, coming from the bottom one, it would suddenly separate in mid-air, one stream going foward and another one going up through the upper injector (which would no longer BE an injector) and end up nowhere.
Perhaps the colliding plasma stream are part of the warp field creation. Didn't Diana say that the warp field present when the guy jumped in the plasma was responsible for having his thoughts imprinted in the bulkhead even the though they weren't travelling at warp? By the way, I don't remember seeing that pic on screen. Do you think it's from the model?
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-If you ask me, I think continuity is highly overrated...
*Brannon Braga*
-Where were you when the brains were handed out?
*Sonic the Hedgehog*
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"...more people buy Harry Potter novels than the works of Alexander Pope, but that's no measure of their quality."
-Tom Aylward-Nally, December 29, 1999
I am quite sure that I saw this pic on screen.
TSN, I don't see why we should doubt that the control room is in the back (this is given by the TechManual).
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USS Allegiance LCARS Database
And as for the blue grills, the edges of the warp coils end up just beside the blue grills. So even it it gets bigger, we wouldn't be able to see it because them. I suppose with all the evidences we have, the location of the control room is now a matter of choice unless someone can get some picture from the show to resolve the issue.
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-If you ask me, I think continuity is highly overrated...
*Brannon Braga*
-Where were you when the brains were handed out?
*Sonic the Hedgehog*
Anyway, I don't think the control room can be in the front. In EOTB, they get into the nacelle through a Jeffries tube which ends just behind the control room's door. If this tube runs through the nacelle's pylon, it can't end in the front of the nacelle (it' a vertical tube).
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USS Allegiance LCARS Database
Presumably, the Jeffries tube runs vertically up the pylon, then turns horizontal (either fore or aft, but I prefer fore), then goes back to vertical when it comes even w/ the control room.
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"...more people buy Harry Potter novels than the works of Alexander Pope, but that's no measure of their quality."
-Tom Aylward-Nally, December 29, 1999
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USS Allegiance LCARS Database
The Tech Manual shows injectors on every coil, but IIRC, they are not between the coils - they are UNDERNEATH them! Or then inside the coil ring. They only become visible because parts of the coils are cut out in the picture.
Perhaps in drive mode these eighteen individual injectors fire from "below", "into" the coils, energizing them from "outside", and the one injector we see in the episode when the engine is on idle is just a sort of a "negative pole" that generates the nonpulsating inside plasma stream. The individual injectors take care of the pulsating effect that creates a proper propulsive field.
I can't understand what Mike and Rick were thinking when drawing the injectors "below" the nacelles - except if they are intended to fire "into" the nacelles. Or am I remembering the drawing incorrectly?
Timo Saloniemi
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"The Earl of Sandwich invented the sandwich. Samuel Morse invented the Morse Code. Plato invented the plate."
-Holly, Red Dwarf: "Parallel Universe"
It's pretty obvious that the engine doesn't work by constantly creating new plasma and pumping it through the nacelles like so much water or gasoline - if that were true, then the ship would be venting used plasma all the time. Instead, the warp core apparently just excites an existing plasma loop so that waves of energy travel along it to the nacelles. Of course, some residual plasma is created in incomplete annihilation and parasitic fusion reactions, and some is vented or used as impulse propellant. Mostly, though, it's the same plasma suspended in one place or perhaps being circulated.
The individual injectors firing on the undersides of the coil segments simply fire the energy - they do not constantly pump out volumes of plasma. Or perhaps the plasma somehow flows along the outer surface of the coil from bottom to top, to "plasma drains" we haven't seen yet? (It can't go inside the coil since a segment isn't hollow...)
As a ship reaches warp one, a huge white flash is created. I think this flash is the mark of an active subspace field (as is the red glow of the photon torpedoes). The blue glow that is also present on idle isn't the color of a warp field IMHO, but just plasma glow seen through a grille that lets "subspace radiation" and incidentally also blue visible light pass through. "Idle" subspace fields that keep Einstein sedated are probably more or less invisible to the naked eye.
Timo Saloniemi
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new siggy coming soon.
I thought that the blue glow was supposed to be an indication that the coils were "active" (generating a subspace field).
Also, I was under the impression that the subspace field was a direct result of the contact between the plasma and the verterium cortenide (sp?) in the coils. Therefore, the stream shooting down the middle wouldn't have much contact w/ the coils, and thus wouldn't produce much of a field. However, the individual injectors at each segment would be shooting plasma right onto the coils, making a much more potent field. As for what happens to the plasma, it probably cools back down into a gas and either recycled or, if the plasma/coil interaction somehow makes it unusable, vented invisibly out of the nacelles. The few times we have actually seen plasma being vented, it could either be the fact that it is plasma, thus hot, thus glowing, making it visible, or it might be that it would normally be invisible, but they show it to us on TV so we get a better effect (kinds like sound in space; we know it isn't there, but we accept it as something added in for effect).
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"The Earl of Sandwich invented the sandwich. Samuel Morse invented the Morse Code. Plato invented the plate."
-Holly, Red Dwarf: "Parallel Universe"
The only cases where we see the grilles of TNG-era ships black are when the ship is completely shut down, crippled, or changing its dilithium crystals as in the beginning of "Skin of Evil" (although a "hot swap" later becomes a possibility). Even quayside ships (like the E-D at DS9) usually keep their grilles lit. The Defiant seems to be turned off when docked, though.
I'd assume that the blue glow is directly related to presence of plasma in the nacelles but not to other status of the nacelles (idle, sublight, warp). When powered down, the ship purges the plasma loops completely so the grilles go black. When on idle, plasma is present in the loop but not firing at the coils, just flowing through the nacelle horizontally - enough to cause the blue glow. When active, plasma begins to fire at the coils, too. Ultimately, the warp flash results.
Timo Saloniemi
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USS Allegiance LCARS Database
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"The Earl of Sandwich invented the sandwich. Samuel Morse invented the Morse Code. Plato invented the plate."
-Holly, Red Dwarf: "Parallel Universe"
Agree on all counts exdcept recycling.
1) When the vessel is producing a lot of plasma (which as I understand it is a gas which has been so thermally-excited that electrons are stripped from their nuclei - thus ionizing it), the vessel is travelling at multiples of c. Thus, the amount of used-exhaust plasma being vented at any particular POV in space would be infinitesimal - but would in fact exist.
2) Vessels travelling at warp leave an ion trail which can be detected and tracked later. This could be the residual plasma, which although cooled back down to ambient temperature (2-3 degrees Kelvin?), would still be ionized, as the stripped electrons would not always re-affix to all nuclei. Could it be this ion trail which, repeated by vessel after vessel, causes the degradation of the subspace continuum mentioned in various episodes? And that said problem has been counteracted/alleviated by better de-ionizing or less transatating of plasma in newer vessels such as the Sovereign and Intrepid classes?
3) As I recall from phaser discussions, over-stimulated matter "dematerializes" - which is to say it 'transtates' from normal space into subspace (it does not convert to energy, or everytime a red-shirt was dematerialized, there would be an earth-shattering kaboom). It might be reasonable to postulate that, in the extreme conditions involved in the creation of a subspace field in the nacelles, some or most of the plasma is transtated into subspace as well.
4 I doubt that the leftover plasma could be recycled. Although it is ionized deuterium (highly-energized bonded proton pairs with one or no electrons), handling same prior to cooling would be almost as hazardous a task as handling antimatter plasma. [Although, since it is ionized, a magnetic field could manipulate it). It is much more likely that the used plasma is somehow made to proceed laterally to the glowing blue grids, and passes through them into space. This might be facilitated by the gap between the upper and lower coil halves.
(possible spoiler for VGR "The Void")
$
$
$
$
$
When Voyager's warp engines were completely off line, after trying to escape the void, the core powered down, the nacelle grilles were still lit. It's clear as day that the core is defunct. No swirling blue patterns. But for some reason, the nacelles still had power.
Is this a continuity error?
On a side note: How in the world did we end up with this thread again? This thing is over a year old...
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