I would be interesting in getting your votes. Niagara/three-nacelled ship or Excelsior study model? Isn't there a possibility to include a poll box into the Forum?

We discussed a few more things and I also got suggestions from other people. This is the preliminary result: http://www.uni-siegen.de/~ihe/bs/startrek/articles/wolf359.htm

I hope we will be able to identify the rest of the ships too.

BTW, I borrowed some shots that are probably from your site, Frank. I still have to find out which ones.

If someone has more or more clear screen shots, I would be glad to use them (credit granted, of course).

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"A few more calculations"

 

Actually, I can send you different versions of these for you to use. If you check Sternbach's group, you'll notice that there was a bit of a problem with people not realising that those images were from my page...

Either way, I'm pretty sure that what looks like a nacelle is actually part of the secondary hull, but looks that way due to the shadows of the nacelle pylons. What looks like the bussard collectors is probably that back part of the saucer. It is an interesting case, though.

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Frank's Home Page
"We're going to take a five minute break...we'll be back in twenty minutes." - John Linnell

 

Actually, I have received most of the images by e-mail. I have put them on a preliminary page for internal use, until I was able to complete the page and check the origin of the images.

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"A few more calculations"

 

As for the 4 nacelled ship, in Unification II, I think that's actually any Oberth with the saucer ripped off. The back of the nacelles is black, which looks like the grating on the Oberth's nacelles. It also looks like the front of the saucer has been ripped off, but most of the saucer can still be seen intact. Below the right nacelles you can barely make out the Oberth's slim engineering hull.

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"The things hollow--it goes on forever--and--oh my God!--it's full of stars!" -David Bowman's last transmission back to Earth, 2001: A Space Odyssey
 

Also, here's an interesting image from the Qualor 2 scenes...in the upper right we have a T'Pau-type ship (which I consider to be the Apollo), and in the upper left is...an Excelsior? Study model? Dunno.

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Frank's Home Page
"We're going to take a five minute break...we'll be back in twenty minutes." - John Linnell

 

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Sometimes I run
Sometimes I hide
Sometimes I'm scared of you
But all I really want is to hold you tight
Treat you right, be with you day and night
Baby all I need is time

-Britney Spears
 

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"Reality is a condition that occurs because of a lack of alcohol."
- Albert Einstein

(-=\V/=-)
 

But of interest is that the center nacelle seems to only barely obscure the nearly cylindrar secondary hull, suggesting the latter indeed is based on the Constitution model kit secondary hull, the only such narrow component available without customizing. Perhaps what we are seeing is the real Rigel? The third nacelle would be in the wrong place: this ship cannot be upside down unless the saucer is "centered" on the Constitution hull (which I think would look too silly) instead of "resting atop" the hull (which would make it the only Starfleet ship to have such a configuration). But perhaps the reports on nacelle placement were wrong?

In the end, I'm all for calling the "badly damaged Galaxy saucer in flames" a Rigel, as people have generally done so far. Instead of tiny nacelles, I see "de-nacelled" pylons there. This ship is my leading candidate for the origins of FF "Niagara", even though the FF got all the details wrong.

I was extremely intrigued to learn Ed Miarecki takes credit for USS Chekov. Apparently, all the known BoBW ship classes did exist in model form after all!

BTW, Bernd, have you asked Miarecki or Okuda directly to comment on your page? In an old conversation, Okuda once asked me if I'd learned anything new about the origins of the FF "Niagara", and I thought this would be a good time to reply. So I pointed him to your page...

Timo Saloniemi
 

BTW, Miarecki has an email address...has anyone emailed him about the models? If not, we should have someone send a short message (emphasis on short) asking him if he remembers anything about them.

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Frank's Home Page
"We're going to take a five minute break...we'll be back in twenty minutes." - John Linnell

 

I have a sequence of the scene which doesn't show so much change: http://www.uni-siegen.de/~ihe/bs/startrek/articles/wolf359/niagara-chris.jpg
I might ask Chris if he can also capture the very beginning and very end when the vertical ship is visible.

BTW, is it only my impression or is what I think is the Bussard collector more off the center than on Frank's screencap?

BTW, I just noticed that these two ships could be the same: http://w1.314.telia.com/~u31412332/bilder/qualor2a.jpg http://w1.314.telia.com/~u31412332/new/newground.jpg

(from Thomas's website)

The second image is the soliton wave rider.

Timo: Chris was in contact with Miarecki and Okuda, and he got some answers, but I can't exactly tell who said what. Perhaps I may get exact quotes for the next update.

The most interesting thing would be to learn how the Springfield looks. Miarecki should know.

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"A few more calculations"

 

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"The Starships of the Federation are the physical, tangible manifestations of Humanity�s stubborn insistence that life does indeed mean something."
Spock to Leonard McCoy in "Final Frontier"

 

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7 alarm clock: "Do not touch me."
Dilbert: "Then how do I turn you off?"
7: "Believe me, I am plenty turned off."

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Frank's Home Page
"We're going to take a five minute break...we'll be back in twenty minutes." - John Linnell

 

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Frank's Home Page
"We're going to take a five minute break...we'll be back in twenty minutes." - John Linnell

 

And, regarding the Challenger on Bernd's page... In a decision between the Chal. and the ESM2, I would definitely have to go w/ the Chal. The nacelles are way too close together for it to be the ESM. Of course, itcould be something completely different, too. But I do think that the evidence is strong enough to make it the Challenger.

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Lisa: "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
Bart: "Not if you called them 'stench blossoms'..."
-The Simpsons
 

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"The Starships of the Federation are the physical, tangible manifestations of Humanity�s stubborn insistence that life does indeed mean something."
Spock to Leonard McCoy in "Final Frontier"

 

1.Nebula/Melbourne: Just as commonly described, except that Miarecki built two near-identical study models, of which one was damaged for the shots and one was used as tabletop decoration in later episodes. So the original might have been nothing but splinters in the episode, instead of barely charred as I thought.
2.Springfield/Chekov: "A scaled-down Galaxy-shaped saucer, and two warp nacelles, one above and the other below the engineering hull". Koenig wanted to have the model as a memento, but it disappeared when on loan for a VFX test shot. Okuda says he thinks he built this one himself.
3.New Orleans/Kyushu: As commonly described
4.Cheyenne/Ahwahnee: As commonly described

Rigel probably wasn't in the show after all, although Freedom might have been.

Also, Okuda says the other four-naceller is one of perhaps three or four Excelsior study models made by Bill George. It's apparently related to the flat two-naceller but is still a separate model.

And in addition to the McQuarrie Phase II ships, the Phase II shuttlecraft maquette was also prepared for photography for "BoBW". It's not known if the shuttle was really shot, though.

Timo Saloniemi

 

Okuda said that the goal of the kitbashing was specifically to create "sister ships" for the Galaxy class, so one would think that as few as possible "out-of-era" designs were created. This casts doubt over the common description of Challenger class. Perhaps the "Challenger" in the pictures is actually a Constellation? Or at the very least, the ship in the pictures is not supposed to be Challenger class USS Buran and does not have a 50000-range registry.

Also, Okuda wasn't quite sure about the specifics of the Chekov, but I certainly wouldn't rule out the two-nacelle configuration. Both Okuda and Miarecki seem to take credit for this ship, but of course the ships must have been joint projects to a great degree. The vertical three-naceller probably isn't the Chekov after all, then. So it might be either the elusive Niagara or the Rigel, or even the Challenger, all of which are left without a matching model in Okuda's commentary.

Bernd: The soliton rider and the ship at Qualor II apparently are reuses of the Mars Perimeter Defence
ships. One can see the "beavertail" central hull very much resembles a Typhoon class SSBN hull, while the nacelles come from Los Angeles class... The craft are recycled "Hunt for the Red October" material! Perhaps this is some sort of a "corvette" design common to an earlier era, now mainly flown automated?

Oh, and BTW, Okuda sends his regards to the intrepid creators of the Wolf 359 page, and tells he liked the page a lot.

That covers all of Okuda's post now, except for a story about Stewart coming to Okuda's room in full Locutus costume to xerox some script pages, just as Okuda was cutting the Melbourne to pieces for shooting. Of course Okuda went "Now look what you have done!"

Timo Saloniemi

 

Timo: It's obviously getting complicated again, just after I thought it was all pretty clear. First of all, Miarecki said he didn't remember the ships he built; we are still waiting for another reply about the specific suggestions I made on my site, but maybe he's a bit tired of our e-mail bombardment.

If Miarecki built two Nebulae, the ship we have commonly identified as Rigel could be the damaged one. Provided that the undamaged Nebula is supposed to be the Melbourne and is in the scene too (off-screen?).

The most important thing to do will be looking for a ship with a vertical nacelle configuration. The Chekov disappeared after BoBW, didn't it?

Interesting that the Soliton Wave Rider could be composed of three submarines. Never thought of that.

I'm glad that Okuda liked the site, it would be even better with some certain slides...

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"A few more calculations"

 

It was also unclear whether both of the Nebula study models were used for filming, or just the damaged one.

I think the ambiguity over Challenger especially is a positive thing, since now we don't have to believe in TNG-registered but TOS-shaped ships any more. And I do agree that the burning saucer taken for Rigel might in fact be a Nebula study model. It could also be any of the other ships, now that we have a reason to believe that Galaxy parts were predominantly used in all of them.

Timo Saloniemi
 

Perhaps the ship identified as Challenger actually is not a Challenger, nor a Constellation - perhaps this is our Chekov?

In the analyses so far, it has been assumed that the ship is being seen from directly above or below. However, if the ship was actually slightly tilted, then a dorsal/ventral nacelle pair would appear as two side-by-side nacelles as seen, with the engineering hull in between. Furthermore, the oval Galaxy saucer would appear round. In the Challenger analysis, we see the upper left part of the saucer less damaged than the rest, and it appears there is a phaser strip there (a feature not part of the Constellation or Constitution saucers, even though Constellation does have a narrower striplike thing on the outer rim).

Problems with this interpretation include the overtly long nacelles (but perhaps a stretched pair was created, as for New Orleans?) and possible other viewing angles that might disprove the "tilt theory". On a plus side, a tilted ship would explain why one nacelle is so much darker than the other. Of course, there is no real continuity in light angles in the debris field, so nothing definite can be said of shadows.

Timo Saloniemi
 

Apparently, none of these study models that were built for the graveyard scenes are anywhere to be found, nor were they ever very detailed in the first place. From the designs I've seen put forth (the ones that use parts from other ship models) I don't like very many of them. They seem sort of clunky and half thought out.

So, since we've never seen any of them up close or in any detail, couldn't we redraw some of them so that the parts they use simply RESEMBLE parts of other ships? Changing some of the lines, layers and other details would certain fit within my level of comfort for sticking to what has appeared on screen. It would also free us from trying to ID specific parts on screen.

Of course, we still have to match the class with the design. But that's a problem I don't know enough about to get involved with...

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Aban's Illustration www.thespeakeasy.com/alanfore

I doubt the ship we've identified as a Rigel is in fact a Nebula...the body is too small, for one. Again, Okuda has said several different things about these ships in the past, so those slides would be helpful, if he still has them somewhere.

Aban: I think we're more interested in determining what the ships really look like than redrawing them, at least right now.

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Frank's Home Page
"We're going to take a five minute break...we'll be back in twenty minutes." - John Linnell

[This message has been edited by The Shadow (edited February 10, 2000).]
 

BTW, happy to hear there might not be Constitution parts used. The guy who wrote the original description of the ships from the slide-show probably guessed half of it.

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-If you ask me, I think continuity is highly overrated...
*Brannon Braga*

-Let the Fates land where they may!
*Megatron - Beast Machines*

 

I have been blowing up some of my pictures of Wolf 359 and Qualor II, and I agree that the quadnacelled ship is DEFINATELY not a Cheyenne - I have found a Cheyenne though - I'll have to post my blown up picture... and what appears to be the underside of the ship - ok I'm thinking here now that 'scaled down galaxy saucers' are the Cheyenne's the Freedom's and the Niagra's - and if we look at the side views from the Fact files there is that wedged block shaped ??deflector?? coming from the bottom of the saucer section - well I think - from speculation, the 'scaled down saucers' the 'Fact Files' and a blown up picture - that the Cheyenne has that block thing on the underneath of the Saucer - everyone just assumes that it is a symmetrical ship, that top equals bottom - I'm guessing it doesn't...and PLEASE PLEASE can someone ask Okuda or Sternbach or who ever to go and fish out the Cheyenne model and look and describe the underneath - I've been obsessing over these little details about the hidden side of the Cheyenne for nearly a week now (oh and not counting the other years)

We've only ever seen the top of the model from the trading card picture.

Andrew

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"...it might be easier to study
ancient societies from distant orbit than it might be to sit next to the
Guardian of Forever with a tricorder." - Baloo, January 2000
 

In fact, I would very much like a ship built like that. It would make for a nice stablemate for the Constellations and Mirandas which did serve on during TNG and even DS9. I just hope this ship is not associated with high registry numbers, like the Challenger class is in the Encyclopedia. There should have been plenty of older ships at Wolf 359 if there were older ships in the DS9 and ST:FC battles.

Now, at least the mysterious three-naceller and the burning saucers look contemporary to the Galaxies, and their registries probably reflect that fact. We know Nebula, Springfield, New Orleans and Freedom were specifically built and registered to be Galaxy stablemates (although we don't yet exactly know what Springfield looked like). And we know that plenty of models were built with "Galaxy features" for the episode, so we can assign the remaining ship names with Galaxy era registries to these models when (if) we see better pictures of them. If we are lucky, the number of free-floating names will match the number of free-floating Galaxy-like designs.

Then we can start playing with what's left over. We can be pretty sure that the following classes were never built as models: Apollo, Wambundu, Surak, Korolev, Merced, Renaissance, Chimera... So we can assign these names to the "leftover" Wolf 359 models once we have all the Galaxy-style models accounted for. The Excelsior study models and the possible "Challenger" ship do deserve actual class names; with the remaining wrecks, like the McQuarrie ships, we could do what Aban suggested and redraw them slightly, to account for some truly obscure class names we are not going to encounter ever again (all except Apollo and Renaissance above are good candidates for this treatment...).

Timo Saloniemi

Oh, oh also, in this picture above - could this be the Chekov? maybe the nacelle to the left of the picture is just free floating junk? and that its a scan effect that makes it look like there is a dark pylon connecting it - the next nacelle to the right could be the single top nacelle - and it would be presumably be matched by the nacelle on the bottom?

Is that an excelsior saucer?

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"...it might be easier to study
ancient societies from distant orbit than it might be to sit next to the
Guardian of Forever with a tricorder." - Baloo, January 2000
 

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Frank's Home Page
"We're going to take a five minute break...we'll be back in twenty minutes." - John Linnell

 

As for the "Niagara" being the "Challenger", when looking at that picture, it would be nearly impossible for that attached nacelle and a free-floating nacelle to be so perfectly lined up. Also, I believe the left nacelle is smaller then the right nacelle, suggesting it is lower on the hull. Also notice those impulse engines on either side of the central nacelle.

Explanation for "Niagara" Fact-Files picture. The model was painted upside down. Now, this reminds me of the Valkyrie incident, where the ship was accidentally labeled on the wrong side. Now, we assume none of the BoBW models remain, therefore, when the artist drew the design for the Fact Files, he was merely going by hear-say or pictures. Therefore, that may explain the large bulge on the bottom of the Niagara picture as being mistake for what appears to be the bridge on this vertical ship. There may be another bulge on the otherside for the bridge. Now, as for the nacelles, the person merely screwed up. He got 2 on top and 1 on bottom, when it should be 1 on top and 2 on bottom.

Also, the Challenger may not be "assigned to a model", because it might have been one of the now 4 Excelsior Study Models.

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"The things hollow--it goes on forever--and--oh my God!--it's full of stars!" -David Bowman's last transmission back to Earth, 2001: A Space Odyssey

[This message has been edited by The359 (edited February 10, 2000).]
 

A mystery ship-the USS Cousteau. There is a mention of this ship being at the battle of Wolf 359 in Star Trek Communicator. However, there is no way to prove or disprove the existence of this ship. I merely accept for myself that this ship existed in the Star Trek universe and fought in the battle.

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takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory
 

1) Vertical Ship has no right nacelle. The scene before commercial, the second that scene starts, you can see the right side of the Vertical Ship. The starfield is clearly visible on the right side. No pylon and no nacelle.

2) The Vertical Ship's left nacelle is not connected to the ship. Same scene. Starfield is visible in the space between the left nacelle and the center nacelle/engineering hull. Possibly from bad computer manipulation.

3) New ship, possibly the real Chekov OR the Nebula. In the first scene, as viewed through the viewscreen, where we can see the Rigel to the left and Kyushu in the middle, just before the scene cuts out, in the lower right-hand corner, there is a ship with a DEFINATE Galaxy-style saucer. But here is where it gets tricker. There is an obvious add-on to the back of the saucer, almost similar to a Miranda-style. There is something black located above this. At first, it looked like a nacelle, but the glowing flames around it almost make it look like a pod, like the Nebula has. Nothing is visible below the ship, unfortunatly.

4) The Challenger/Chekov in the final scene. The saucer is definatly a perfect circle, but there is a problem. A small, diamond shape at the back of the saucer is visibly connected to the rest of the body. The diamond shape and the nacelles/engineering hull are extremly bright, brighter then the rest of the saucer. No clue why just a small section of the saucer would be brighter then the rest. Also, the apparant centerline of the engineering hull does not match up with the saucer. This ship appears to be a jumbled mess.

5) Another possible Challenger. Again, final scene (when the Constitution Engineering hull has been removed). Between the left edge of the Enterprise-D's saucer and the apparant wreck of the Rigel Class is a dark ship, hard to see. She has a saucer similar to the Excelsior, and two nacelles positioned above the saucer. It's impossible to make out where the nacelle pylons connect, to an engineering hull or the saucer.

6) Rigel engineering hull may be Galaxy, not Constitution. From looking at the ship as the scene moved (not freeze-frame), the sacuer's curvature at the back seems way too drastic to be a Constitution Engineering hull. It is possible that the saucer may be from the large Enterprise-D kit, and the engineering-hull from the small Enterprise-D kit. Also, the engineering hull would be positioned far forward.

7) Rigel's nacelles are connected to the pylons at the back of the nacelle. Again, this really makes this ship even uglier. The small things on the back of the ship DO appear to be nacelles, not just pieces of pylons.

8) Shelby's calling-off of ship names. "Tolstoy, Kyushu, Melbourne." Tolstoy, the nacelle in the upper left of the screen that moves away after a second. Shelby probably hesitated in stating the ship's name. Kyushu, obvious. Melbourne. Just before the camera goes back to Shelby's face, there is a small cloud of debris comign up in the bottom right corner. Now, this time, Shelby did not hesitate. The time between the scene ending and Shelby saying "Melbourne", there would be enough time for a large chunk of a ship to appear on the viewscreen immediatly behind the oncoming cloud of wreckage. Fortunatly, there is no way in the world that we can tell if the ship behind the cloud is Nebula or Excelsior.

Also, I thought I may have sighted another ship that could be seen through the hole in the neck of the Constitution Class engineering hull in the final scene (pre-commercial), but later turned out to be the Rigel (post-commercial).

Screen-caps of the new ship, anyone?

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"The things hollow--it goes on forever--and--oh my God!--it's full of stars!" -David Bowman's last transmission back to Earth, 2001: A Space Odyssey
 

So can't that make the 'vertical' ship the ship with one nacelle top and bottom? Was that the Chekov?

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"...it might be easier to study
ancient societies from distant orbit than it might be to sit next to the
Guardian of Forever with a tricorder." - Baloo, January 2000
 

Now comes the cute part: originally, the scene where Shelby names the wrecks floating past was supposed to go "Melbourne, Kyushu, Chekov". But Chekov sounded too cutesy, so the line was altered in post-production to read "Melborune, Kyushu, Tolstoy"! I asked Okuda if the names were originally intended to correspond to the models visible on the viewscreen at all, but we'll have to wait for an answer. If the answer is yes, then Chekov in fact is on screen right there!

So where does this leave Tolstoy/Rigel? Most probably in the category of "names without corresponding models" (as Okuda indicated in his first post already). And thus we would be best off if we then assigned this name to one of the "models without corresponding names" - e.g. one of the Excelsior study models on the background in that shot.

The matter is still a bit unclear, though. Does the scene feature an identifiable Nebula (if we discount the partially visible ship in the upper right corner, since it more or less has to be the "three-naceller with two nacelles" we see vertically in the exterior pictures)? It would have to, if the original intent was to have Melbourne+Kyushu+Chekov on screen in that scene.

Also, Okuda says there's a four-nacelled albeit slightly damaged Excelsior study model patrolling the airspace of the art department, and he's going to get a picture of it ASAP. So that's probably one mystery finally solved.

Timo Saloniemi

*The "Rigel" wreckage can be seen in "Unification" when the USS Enterprise enters the Qualor 2 salvage yards. The "Rigel" is to the left of the planet, at the top of the screen. (And for those who like obscure ships, the bow of the Orion raider can be seen in the same episode. It is seen with a Miranda, Variant 1.)
*ST: TNG Companion says that there were specially built models for the Challenger, Cheyenne, Freedom, Nebula, New Orleans, Niagara, Rigel, and Springfield Classes. There is also confirmation that the name USS Chekov was changed to USS Tolstoy.
*Some thoughts-if all the new models were built using Galaxy Class parts, then the Freedom would have a Galaxy Class saucer, a Galaxy Class neck, and a Galaxy Class nacelle. This, in my imagination, is a better designed ship. It is unfortunate that the neck is not more visible. And as for the Niagara, maybe the design from the Fact Files should be ignored.
*For those who have a direct line of communications with Mr. Okuda, can you ask him why there is reluctance to have these ship's designs be more public? For many years, the official word has been that there is no design for these ships. However, this whole thread shows that there is a design-however basic-for each of the named ships.
*A question, did the majority of the ship wreckage at Wolf 359 get "transported" to Qualor 2? If so, there may exist a chance to get a better view of the ships.
*One last note-I remember reading the ships at Wolf 359 (the new models) were made into a diorama that was placed in one of the producers offices. The photo of the USS Kyushu hung from the ceiling may have come from this producers' office.

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takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory
 

Okuda says there was no general "set photo" session on the ships that he'd know of. Instead, the individual modelmakers may have taken pictures (so bombarding Ed Miarecki or perhaps Greg Jein is our last, best hope here). Okuda himself only took the photos for his slide show, and he said he'd try to see if they still remain. He took the Cheyenne one, and *might* have more than one on her...

Larry Nemecek got the TNG Companion ship list directly from Okuda, and probably mistakenly believed that all the ships there had either been built as models or the names assigned to existing models. As far as Okuda remembers, there was no Challenger or Rigel model (and considering the Chekov/Tolstoy story, it's virtually certain that no separate Rigel model was ever really built).

I'm now 99.975% certain that the former "Rigel" is a Nebula study model, similar to this one. Do we see this ship in the scene where Shelby mentions the Melbourne? Or is it from a significantly earlier or later scene?

Hmm. What I'd need is a "stop-motion movie" where the screencaps from "BoBW" are arranged chronologically,
since I don't have the tape available. Perhaps this should be a feature of the Ex Astris Wolf 359 page?

Timo Saloniemi
 

Brief summary here of ships at Wolf 359, version 1.701-F (NCC either that of the given ship or just typical for variant in question, Model means model built specifically to portray that class)

Class.........NCC.......Model...Status

Constitution..?????.....ST3.....seen well (BoBW)
Apollo........11000.....no?.....(Emissary)
Ambassador....26000.....Jein....seen well (Emissary)
Miranda 3.....31000.....?.......seen well (Emissary)
Springfield...53000.....Miar....pending evaluation (BoBW)
Challenger....57000.....Miar?...??????? (BoBW)
Niagara.......58000.....no?.....(BoBW)
Rigel.........62000.....no......seen only by Shelby (BoBW)
Nebula 2......62000.....Jein....seen well (Emissary)
Nebula 1......64000?....Miar....seen (BoBW)
Excelsior 1...64000.....George..seen (Emissary)
New Orleans...65000.....Miar....seen well (BoBW)
Freedom.......68000.....Jein....seen (BoBW)
Cheyenne......71000.....Miar....not seen? (BoBW)

Models w/o definite names:

Excelsior study 1.....almost-Excelsior, not seen
Excelsior study 2.....flat'n wide, seen (BoBW)
Excelsior study 3.....4-naceller, seen (BoBW)
McQuarrie 1...........longer, not seen
McQuarrie 2...........shorter, seen (BoBW)

(The close-up on a Constitution secondary hull was done on a smallish model used in ST3 in the destruction of the E-nil, according to Okuda)

Feel free to disagree!

Timo Saloniemi

[This message has been edited by Timo (edited February 11, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Timo (edited February 14, 2000).]
 

Timo Saloniemi
 

The dialogue was "The Tolstoy, the Kyushu, the Melbourne". The glowing Galaxy saucer (Melbourne) was in the scene. It would prefectly match the dialogue if the Tolstoy is the vertical ship, the Kyushu is clear, the Melbourne is the burning saucer.

Chris prepared a page with part of the screencaps: http://www.zahni.com/copernicus/copernicus.htm

BTW, the last picture shows that the Freedom apparently has no Galaxy neck. Maybe it's actually a thin Constitution neck, but I bet it is heavily modified so that we would get a consistent design again.

As for the ship whose top view can be seen in the center of the above scene, it's now the third completely different assumption within three days. Honestly, I have no idea what to believe. I'm currently likely to drop the assumption that it's a Challenger (if the Challenger looks like a Constitution at all). The saucer is convex and not concave as it should be and not flat either. I can also see what seems to be a phaser strip which neither the Excy nor the Constitution should have.

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"A few more calculations"

 

Or then we can say the ship really is the Tolstoy, in which case some other model there must be assigned the name Chekov and the class name Springfield, against the original intentions of Miarecki and Okuda.

If Miarecki has no recollection, and Okuda doesn't come up with anything new, then it's up to us to choose from the two above alternatives.

* * *

On the Freedom neck: There's the familiar kink as the angled leading edge turns vertical to meet the torp deck; and the torp deck shape is also visible. I'm not sure if the neck needs any major modification to create a consistent Galaxy-era ship - if it has Galaxy-style portholes like in the FF pic, then it's okay to me.

On the "ex-Challenger": the only way to find out anything definite would be for Okuda to locate his slide show pictures and show that there really was a ship with Constitution/Constellation properties in the mix. It's doubtful that any better pictures of the strange "Chekov/Tolsty three-naceller" or "Chekov 1+1-naceller" exist anywhere, so those can't be used to rule out alternatives for the "ex-Challenger". But since the slide show Challenger rumor started somewhere, we might get a better pic of USS Buran and go on from there...

Timo Saloniemi
 

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"The Starships of the Federation are the physical, tangible manifestations of Humanity�s stubborn insistence that life does indeed mean something."
Spock to Leonard McCoy in "Final Frontier"

 

Regarding Matt's new ship, I have an image of it somewhere, but it's pretty blurry. I'll see if I can get a better one later.

If Okuda gets us an image of the quad-nacelled ship, I will never say anything bad about him ever again and I will send him a birthday card every year until the end of the century.

The Rigel/potential Nebula is from the first scene, before Shelby reads off the ship names.

The image that pIn'a' Sov posted might be the Apollo saucer, according to some people, but the Making of DS9 book suggests that it's supposed to be the Melbourne's wrecked saucer.

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Frank's Home Page
"We're going to take a five minute break...we'll be back in twenty minutes." - John Linnell

 

This thread sure is an interesting read.

Class        NCC    Model  Status
Constitution ????   ST3    seen well (BoBW)
Apollo       11000  no?    (Emissary)
Ambassador   26000  Jein   seen well (Emissary)
Miranda 3    31000  ?      seen well (Emissary)
Springfield  53000  Miar.  pending evaluation (BoBW)
Challenger   57000  Miar?  ??????? (BoBW)
Niagara      58000  no?    (BoBW)
Rigel        62000  no     still seen by Shelby  (BoBW)
Nebula 2     62000  Jein   seen well (Emissary)
Nebula 1     64000? Miar.  seen (BoBW)
Excelsior 1  64000  George seen (Emissary)
New Orleans  65000  Miar.  seen well (BoBW)
Freedom      68000  Jein   seen (BoBW)
Cheyenne     71000  Miar.  not seen? (BoBW)

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-->Identity Crisis<--

Canon or FF?
Right to assume Nebula Class

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For all you Fighting needs
http://www.fighters.net

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-->Identity Crisis<--

New Orleans - clear

The 'vertical ship' is the ship at the top right - which may or may not have 3 nacelles - cause the nacelle on the left (our left) you can see stars between the nacelle and the ship.

The burning galaxy-esque nacelle is the Melbourne - the picture from Mirakei's site? with the little nacelles on top.

Oh also - the Freedom neck - it is a Connie refit neck isn't it - with the 'torp-launcher' bulge... and they have supposedly put galaxy-esque windows in it? Is that what makes it look TOS connie in the FF diagram?

Oh, also - this is a very side topic - but do we know if there are any 'usual' ships at Wolf 359? ok we saw an Oberth a Miranda Refit and an Excelsior in "Emissary" - but how come we don't see any 'normal' ships in BOBW? by normal I mean the common models at the time unchanged Miranda, Constellation, Excelsior Galaxy, Oberth and Ambassador - I mean the Ambassador was already battle damaged...

Andrew

[This message has been edited by AndrewR (edited February 11, 2000).]
 

The pylons are marked in the first image. The study model, included for comparison, is at a bit of an angle, so the match isn't perfect, but the only thing I'm really concerned about is the length of the secondary hull (which is still shortened in the model picture because it's tilted).

I'm beginning to suspect that the "Rigel" is indeed the Melbourne. Notice that the Nebula study model has an elongated secondary hull.

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Frank's Home Page
"We're going to take a five minute break...we'll be back in twenty minutes." - John Linnell

[This message has been edited by The Shadow (edited February 11, 2000).]
 

Anyway, I refuse to believe the ship that pIn'a' Sov posted is the Melbourne. I just don't see how that ship could have floated from below and to the left of the Saratoga all the way to being above and to the right of the Saratoga. And the Saratoga was in the same place because it had been tractored by the Borg.

------------------
7 alarm clock: "Do not touch me."
Dilbert: "Then how do I turn you off?"
7: "Believe me, I am plenty turned off."

I think I can describe the shape of the ship. A Galaxy-style saucer is obviously apparant. In the middle of the "explosion" is long, cylindrical style engineering hull, maybe a Galaxy engineering hull partially covered by the explosion. There appears to be a large pylon aboe the engineering hull, and a Constitution nacelle stuck on backwards. Unfortunatly, I cannot see a bottom nacelle.

Now, lets regroup this.

Ship classes in Aftermath scene:
Challenger - as of now, unidentified
Springfield - assumed to be old "Challenger", or this new ship
Rigel - as of now, unidentified
Niagara - assumed to be vertical ship
Cheyenne - Confirmed
New Orleans - Confirmed

Excelsior variant I - as of now, unidentified
Excelsior variant II - assumed to be the Niagara
Excelsior variant III and IV - as of now, unidentified (I think)
Enterprise II model - Confirmed, but not assigned name

As far as I know, this is where we all stand as of right now with all the evidence presented.

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"The things hollow--it goes on forever--and--oh my God!--it's full of stars!" -David Bowman's last transmission back to Earth, 2001: A Space Odyssey

[This message has been edited by The359 (edited February 11, 2000).]
 

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Frank's Home Page
"We're going to take a five minute break...we'll be back in twenty minutes." - John Linnell

 

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Attempting to solve the mysteries of starships.

[This message has been edited by Delta Vega (edited February 11, 2000).]
 

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Frank's Home Page
"We're going to take a five minute break...we'll be back in twenty minutes." - John Linnell

 

------------------
Ross: "Inter arma, enim silent leges."
Bashir: "'In the time of war the law falls silent.' Cicero. Have we become a 24th-century Rome, driven by the fact that Caesar can do no wrong?!"
-Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges
 

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Attempting to solve the mysteries of starships.

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Frank's Home Page
"We're going to take a five minute break...we'll be back in twenty minutes." - John Linnell

 

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Its a show people!-William Shatner
I know but its a show I like, Mr. Shatner! -Me

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Frank's Home Page
"We're going to take a five minute break...we'll be back in twenty minutes." - John Linnell

 

And this from Miarecki:

Hello,

I have received many emails on this subject...I have NO photos of these models...And I have very little recollection what they looked like. I did this little job almost 10 years ago...and the only reason I have the names of the ships on my site, is because the ST Art Dept. at Paramount gave them to me...when I built the study models, they did not have names. I really don't know one ship from the other...except for the "Nebula".

I'm extremely busy at this time...and I really don't have time to reasearch this matter, not to mention answering redundant email requests, FROM WHICH I WILL GAIN NOTHING!
Please foward this email to the rest of your group, because I will ignore any further emails about this matter.

ED

Oops. I guess we won't be "bombarding" him, will we?

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Lisa: "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
Bart: "Not if you called them 'stench blossoms'..."
-The Simpsons
 

Rewatched "Emissary" now, and nothing really new. A few small thigns though

1) The Bonestell apparantly was heading AWAY from the Saratoga when hit. The split second before the explosion, you can see that the engineering hull is longer on the side facing the ship then the side facing away from the ship. It appears the Saratoga was still moving (though still tractored)

2) Some more proof that Admiral Hanson's ship was the Excelsior-class Melbourne. In BoBW, Riker gets word that the fleet has engaged the Borg at Wolf 359. Riker arrives at the bridge, and Hanson's ship looses contact within seconds. Now, in "Emissary", we see the fleet engage the Borg (Locutus on the Saratoga's viewscreen). Now, immediatly after they engage the Borg, the Excelsior class Melbourne's saucer is obliterated. This explains the lost contact with Hanson.

Also, found the dedication plaque of the Saratoga. It's at the very back of the ship, in the middle of a console. No close-up though

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"The things hollow--it goes on forever--and--oh my God!--it's full of stars!" -David Bowman's last transmission back to Earth, 2001: A Space Odyssey
 

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Frank's Home Page
"We're going to take a five minute break...we'll be back in twenty minutes." - John Linnell

 

I think Miarecki's problem was that he did all this stuff a decade ago, and he probably didn't really think of it as anything big (i.e. worthy of committing to memory) at the time. Now, he suddenly has a bunch of people asking him about something he hardly remembers, at a time when he's apparently busy w/ other stuff. He did seem a little rude in his response, but I can understand where he's coming from, so I wouldn't hold it against him.

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Lisa: "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
Bart: "Not if you called them 'stench blossoms'..."
-The Simpsons
 

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takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory
 

As for the other stuff... Miarecki doesn't want to be bothered because he doesn't know anything, and he's busy. Okuda, on the other hand, seems perfectly willing to help us out. And apparently there is still information out there. As was mentioned, there is apprently an Ex. study model still in the Trek art dept. that Okuda will try to get a picture of.

So, basically, this is not a futile attempt here.

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Lisa: "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
Bart: "Not if you called them 'stench blossoms'..."
-The Simpsons
 

OK, first of all, I think we resolved that the 31xxx reg for the Excelsior Melbourne was poppycock some time ago. The number is pretty damn obscured by the tractor beam, but the more we enlarged and upgraded the image, IIRC, it looked more like a 6, which is what TPTB have been saying all along.

Anyway, a few points of my own, from the Copernicus images...

http://www.zahni.com/copernicus/images/w359_3_3.jpg
To the left, below the space between the Freedom and the the flaming wreckage, midway down... Cheyenne from overhead? The pylon curve and lack of a secondary hull kinda suggests this.

http://www.zahni.com/copernicus/images/uni_2_1.jpg
Two Mirandas from the rear, a freighter, and the four-nacelled quagmire...yes/no?

And I'm still skeptical that the horizontal ship in the viewscreen is the same as the vertical one in the next shot.

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The above post was mulled-over, composed, and posted during time Tom would have better spent on his plethora of homework and homework-related exercises. Now don't you feel special?

 

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Lisa: "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
Bart: "Not if you called them 'stench blossoms'..."
-The Simpsons
 

have a look at my thread wolf 359/unification - and see my blown up/saturation up pic of that cheyenne - its the same scene but just a different frame...

Andrew

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"...it might be easier to study
ancient societies from distant orbit than it might be to sit next to the
Guardian of Forever with a tricorder." - Baloo, January 2000
 

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"The Starships of the Federation are the physical, tangible manifestations of Humanity�s stubborn insistence that life does indeed mean something."
Spock to Leonard McCoy in "Final Frontier"

 

The second image shows the back of the non-Cheyenne quad-nacelled ship.

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Frank's Home Page
"We're going to take a five minute break...we'll be back in twenty minutes." - John Linnell

 

And that quad-nacelled ship to me is not a Cheyenne. The top and bottom pairs of nacelles are to close to each other, more like the Prometheus Class.

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"Reality is a condition that occurs because of a lack of alcohol."
- Albert Einstein

(-=\V/=-)
 

------------------
Ross: "Inter arma, enim silent leges."
Bashir: "'In the time of war the law falls silent.' Cicero. Have we become a 24th-century Rome, driven by the fact that Caesar can do no wrong?!"
-Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges
 

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"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.

 

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The above post was mulled-over, composed, and posted during time Tom would have better spent on his plethora of homework and homework-related exercises. Now don't you feel special?

 

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The above post was mulled-over, composed, and posted during time Tom would have better spent on his plethora of homework and homework-related exercises. Now don't you feel special?

 

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Frank's Home Page
"We're going to take a five minute break...we'll be back in twenty minutes." - John Linnell

 

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"The things hollow--it goes on forever--and--oh my God!--it's full of stars!" -David Bowman's last transmission back to Earth, 2001: A Space Odyssey
 

I found the impulse drive of the USS Firebrand. At the rear of the saucer, there is a small black area.
So the design of this ship is-
a eliptical disc with a large chevron bulge at the center of the upper portion which contains the bridge. in a straight line aft of the bulge, there are the impulse engines.
a narrow neck contects the disc to a single warp nacelle.

a question, does this class have separation capability?

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takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory
 

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Its a show people!-William Shatner
I know but its a show I like, Mr. Shatner! -Me

Fine.. I rechecked damage. They're both the Kyushu all right...

*nods approvingly at the better scans he's seen since proposing the Cheyenne idea*

I've been a victim of bad scans! Honest!

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The above post was mulled-over, composed, and posted during time Tom would have better spent on his plethora of homework and homework-related exercises. Now don't you feel special?

 

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Klingons never do anything small, eh Worf? -Commander Riker, Star Trek: Insurrection

 

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"The things hollow--it goes on forever--and--oh my God!--it's full of stars!" -David Bowman's last transmission back to Earth, 2001: A Space Odyssey

The 359 Webpage

 

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We did it on the floor,
We did it by the door,
We did it all night,
We did it under a light,
So how about for tonight we do it some more...
 

it is definately a Cheyenne - from behind.

I've always wondered if there is a shuttle bay at the rear middle of the saucersection/necksection... since there are already impulse engines on the saucer...

Andrew

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"...it might be easier to study
ancient societies from distant orbit than it might be to sit next to the
Guardian of Forever with a tricorder." - Baloo, January 2000
 

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Klingons never do anything small, eh Worf? -Commander Riker,
Star Trek: Insurrection

www.huntel.net/massa/StarTrek/index.htm

Grapeape, think before you type this stuff. A proof read too It's just a jumble to me.

Also, why did the Saratoga explode? All the other ships we know have jut be "cut", with large sections missing. But, the Saratoga took two hits and exploded!

Also, noticed a little problem with "Emissary". When the Saratoga lower sensor pod gets hit just after being tractored, the ship is rocked pretty hard. Then when the Bolian is calling off the damage report, he says "Direct hit, Decks 1 through 4". Unless Deck 4 is on the very bottom of the saucer, I think he just toally screwed up

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"The things hollow--it goes on forever--and--oh my God!--it's full of stars!" -David Bowman's last transmission back to Earth, 2001: A Space Odyssey

The 359 Webpage

 

And The Valkyrie was seen in Redemption pt. 2 as one of the ships in Picard's task force.

------------------
7 alarm clock: "Do not touch me."
Dilbert: "Then how do I turn you off?"
7: "Believe me, I am plenty turned off."

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Frank's Home Page
"We're going to take a five minute break...we'll be back in twenty minutes." - John Linnell

 

Andrew

P.S. I would have liked to have seen a Dominion War battle take place through out an entire star system - not ALWAYS bunched up like they were... I reckon 3-4 starships head to head playing hide and seek with in a Starsystem - would be quite enjoyable - somewhat like the Mutara Sector battle between the Enterprise and the Reliant.

Andrew

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"...it might be easier to study
ancient societies from distant orbit than it might be to sit next to the
Guardian of Forever with a tricorder." - Baloo, January 2000
 

Breakthrough: he has found photos. He's not releasing them, hinting at a possible future publication project, but he's giving descriptions. The dorsal/ventral nacelle ship gets accurate now: she's USS Buran of Challenger class after all, with Galaxy nacelles mounted on pylons made of submarine conning towers (apparently, Mike and Rick bought sub kits among other stuff to help the modelmakers create enough ships, and Rick did the Mars Defence Perimeter ships out of those while Okuda modified Miarecki's model).

So the Challenger does exist. I guess this means that the "middle ship" that once was "Challenger" but also a possible "Chekov" or "Excelsior study model 2" turns out to have been the Challenger all the time - but looking nothing like the initial descriptions of that class. While Okuda hasn't explicitly said (and probably couldn't vow) that there wasn't a Constellation-lookalike kitbash, he has now established that

1) the aim of the kitbashing was to create sister designs for Galaxy and
2) the Buran was not a Constellation sister.

The Princeton class Chekov exists, too, but she sounds like a more conventional config. There's not much to go by yet, but the Galaxy-saucered ship has just two nacelles made of marker pens (perhaps similar to the Cheyenne ones?). Waiting for the next message to hear more on Chekov.

So the vertical three-naceller begins to look more and more like Niagara. And the Tolstoy/Rigel is very probably a non-ship - Okuda says he labeled all the kitbashes with full names and registries, and didn't do a Tolstoy (since that name only became necessary with the postproduction line change).

I'm forwarding Okuda's messages to TSN from now on, if people want to read actual transcripts. IMHO, it would be best to wait for "v.3.41+" of each reply instead of commenting on "v.1.0", given how the replies get so much better with age...

And despite some pessimism (shame on you, targetemployee! ), it begins to look as if the project can be finished after all. We only need to get the three-nacellers straight now (and wait for the possible book by Okuda).

Timo Saloniemi
 

and both sides of the cheyenne

THANKYOU MIKE! If he does plan a book - he's got at least 3 buyers in Australia right now

Andrew

PS - I wonder what happened to all those Ferengi models they built - they didn't even use one Marauder in DS9... wasn't there like three models?

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"...it might be easier to study
ancient societies from distant orbit than it might be to sit next to the
Guardian of Forever with a tricorder." - Baloo, January 2000
 

No, Okuda didn't say in the latest message whether he had taken pics of the four-naceller. I think he will, ASAP (it's in his office, after all), but it's also likely that he won't send them over if he's serious about that book project. Also, he hasn't told yet which of the "BoBW" photos he has found beyond the Buran and Chekov ones. I'm hoping for a new Cheyenne picture, too.

I would have liked to see a big Ferengi ship in DS9, too. Voyager isn't likely to show any, and the models probably aren't good enough for movie projects. Should we write to Paramount to have them make the fifth spinoff a Ferengi-centered show?

Timo Saloniemi
 

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"A few more calculations"

 

I'm glad that finally the Challenger gets the design she deserves. Yes, Jonah!

As for the Chekov, shouldn't this ship be on screen, since it's in the first version of the dialogue?

"The Melbourne, the Kyushu, the Chekov". From left to riight, this would mean the supposed Niagara could be the Chekov.

Anyway, I'm looking forward what else Okuda has to say.

Timo: Could you ask him if he provided the information (his slides) on the Freedom and Niagara for the Fact Files?

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"A few more calculations"

 

Either way, could you post the messages here, so we can see exactly what he says? We wouldn't want anything to be lost in the translation.

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Frank's Home Page
"We're going to take a five minute break...we'll be back in twenty minutes." - John Linnell

 

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Lisa: "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
Bart: "Not if you called them 'stench blossoms'..."
-The Simpsons

[This message has been edited by TSN (edited February 16, 2000).]
 

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"The things hollow--it goes on forever--and--oh my God!--it's full of stars!" -David Bowman's last transmission back to Earth, 2001: A Space Odyssey

The 359 Webpage

 

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"The things hollow--it goes on forever--and--oh my God!--it's full of stars!" -David Bowman's last transmission back to Earth, 2001: A Space Odyssey

The 359 Webpage

 

------------------
Lisa: "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
Bart: "Not if you called them 'stench blossoms'..."
-The Simpsons
 

And I am now sure that I must work in Hollywood, soul-sucking destroyer of all things or not. Locutus wandering around the office trying to make copies? You just don't get that sort of thing around here.

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"You are stupid and evil and do not know you are stupid and evil."
--
Gene Ray, Cubic
 

1) Okuda doesn't think there was any special control over getting the VFX people to film Melbourne, Chekov and Kyushu specifically for the scene where Shelby names the ships. So while the Kyushu clearly is in the scene, the other two need not be.

2) The Excelsior study models weren't named or registered. Although Bill George had written "Alka-selsior" on one ship, I think we can agree to consider all these models unnamed . So we can then name them as we please: the four-naceller could be the Rigel class Tolstoy since it is rather clearly seen in the "Shelby scene" (even if the Excelsior design and the 68000 registry don't exactly match). The three-naceller on the right probably isn't any of the three/four ships Shelby names - it certainly doesn't match the Chekov description, which is kinda vague as of now but definitely has two marker pen nacelles.

3) Okuda thinks Greg Jein built both the single-nacelle Freedom and a three-nacelled ship. He didn't tell yet if there were more than one of these three-nacellers, but it seems unlikely.

Nothing definite on which photos Okuda found and what kind of book he's going to do, if any - but I asked about those things directly, so the answer might be coming soon.

And all Okuda ever gave Nemecek for doing the Fact Files ships was the list of ships present (names and registries), and he doesn't know how the FF got their design info.

Timo Saloniemi
 

Oh, I think it is also a sign that all those people that Mike mentioned are doing and have done a great job over the years that nearly all those names most Trek fans would know... For a crew of a television show - that is a rare thing - could anyone tell me who did the make up on... LA Law? for instance or who built models for the effects in Earth 2?

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"...it might be easier to study
ancient societies from distant orbit than it might be to sit next to the
Guardian of Forever with a tricorder." - Baloo, January 2000
 

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Frank's Home Page
"We're going to take a five minute break...we'll be back in twenty minutes." - John Linnell

 

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Kiff! I have bedded a woman. Inform the crew.
- Zap Brannigan

 

If Greg Jein probably built the three-nacelled ship (Niagara?), this would match the previous statement that he built the freedom and the Rigel when the latter was supposed to have three nacelles.

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"A few more calculations"

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Lisa: "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
Bart: "Not if you called them 'stench blossoms'..."
-The Simpsons

[This message has been edited by TSN (edited February 16, 2000).]
 

---

In a message dated 2/13/00 1:54:20 PM, [email protected] writes:

>>"A scaled-down Galaxy-shaped saucer, and two warp nacelles, one above and the other below the engineering hull".

>I was wrong above. The above description is the Buran. The Chekov is the small Ertl Galaxy saucer with four marker-pen nacelles. I've since given more info to Timo.

I think, now he confuses the Awanhee/Cheyenne with the Chekov/Sprinfield

>The three-nacelled ship was made by Greg Jein. I don't recall what the designation was for that ship. I'll try to remember to ask Greg if he remembers.

YES! I think we got it! I sent him the picture of our possible Princeton/Niagara (the vertical ship). This IS the tree-nacelled ship (and yes there are three nacelles) build by Greg Jein (not the Rigel!) So it has to be the Princeton/Niagara.

>I seem to recall that the only time I noticed the Melbourne in BOBW2 was from a fairly head-on angle, and it was rather small in the frame. Bear in mind that while I was one of the people who helped with the models, I did NOT shoot the models, nor was I there when they were composited, so I could easily have missed something there.

The only remaining ship seen from head-on is the second view of the Tolstoy/Rigel. But this must now be the Melbourne/Nebula - there is really no Tolstoy/Rigel!

>Hope this helps a little.
>
>-Mike

BOAH YES!!! THIS HELPS MORE THAN A LITTLE

-Chris

---

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"A few more calculations"

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Frank's Home Page
"This song is dedicated to everyone in the audience tonight...WITH ONE EYE!" - John Linnell
 

The answer appears to be no in both cases. The USS Challenger NCC-2032 and USS Springfield NCC-1963 are ships of the 2270's and 2280's in design and capability. The newer USS Challenger and USS Springfield appear to be ships of the 2330's to 2340's in design and capability based on their sister ships the USS Buran and the USS Chekov.

I have a few questions.
First, I am unclear as to the number of nacelles for the Springfield Class. I read in one posting two nacelles and in the other four nacelles. Can someone clarify this issue?
Second, can the image of the vertical ship's saucer be "cleaned" up. I believe that it may be possible to read some of the registry. The last part of the registry can be read as a 4 or something else. Confirmation of this reading would be helpful.
Third, Mr. Okuda spoke of being restricted in his ability to release photos. Does one of you understand the legalities of releasing photos and other material and can you explain to the others the legalities?

Thank you.

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takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory
 

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Lisa: "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
Bart: "Not if you called them 'stench blossoms'..."
-The Simpsons
 

------------------
7 alarm clock: "Do not touch me."
Dilbert: "Then how do I turn you off?"
7: "Believe me, I am plenty turned off."
 

I feel really dirty for jumping the gun and forwarding the emails before Okuda made clear how they should be reprinted.

Here in any case is my version 1.701-G-and-counting of which ship is which. Consider it an attempt to clear up my thoughts on this, and feel free to disagree.

Chekov/Springfield: not yet spotted, but likely to be vaguely Enterprise-like with two nacelles (just taking the median for two replies saying two nacelles and one saying four). Could be of any size. Probably this is the ship there exists the least information about, barring another serendipitous photo discovery.

Buran/Challenger: most likely to be the one in the middle of the debris field, labeled "Challenger in BoBW?" in the Wolf 359 page. Possibly represents a rather large ship at a distance, with nacelles of Galaxy size but with a much smaller saucer. Might also be a Freedom-sized ship with downscaled nacelles. Probably a cruiser of some sort.

Firebrand/Freedom: the positively identified single-naceller, probably rather small with a smaller-than-Galaxy nacelle. Perhaps a destroyer a la Saladin class?

Princeton/Niagara: very likely to be the three-naceller seen both in the "Shelby scene" viewscreen and as the "vertical ship" in the exterior pics. It appears Jein built *a* three-naceller, not several, and this is it. The ship might well have full Galaxy nacelles, but again the saucer is significantly smaller - so the ship doesn't really dwarf the Galaxy. She's probably just another heavy cruiser instead of a superheavy explorer-dreadnought.

Tolstoy/Rigel: name invented in place of Chekov for dramatic needs, so no model designed or labeled as such. But there are plenty of unnamed models to choose from, e.g. the four-nacelled Excelsior study model. The 68000 registry is a problem, though. It might be better to say that Rigel is the flaming saucer on the left of the first viewscreen shots - even if this hulk is not quite on screen when Shelby says "Tolstoy", she could simply be voicing the name of the ship she first recognized a while ago and then move on to ships actually visible on the screen.

Melbourne/Nebula: probably the "head-on" ship formerly thought of as Rigel, possibly also the flaming ship seen from above in the exterior pictures. I'd like to ignore the name Melbourne, as well as the registry, because it's now obvious they cannot be seen even with the help of a future image-enhancing supermachine. The name and registry should be reserved for the Excelsior seen relatively well in "Emissary".

Ahwahnee/Cheyenne: just as described. The model is unlikely to have any aft detail, since the mounting pole for photography is attached there. But I'd like to imagine the missing shuttlebay is in this location. Could be a light cruiser or a frigate - in any case, seems to be among the smallest ships in the battle after Freedom.

Kyushu/New Orleans: I'd be interested to hear what makes Starfleet consider this one a frigate. Perhaps all frigates have those external weapons pods (making Miranda a frigate as well, just as fanfic has always said)? Conversely, a pod doesn't a frigate make, as seen with Nebula.

Timo Saloniemi
 

I'm adding an edited summary of Timo's and Mike's communication to my website.

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"A few more calculations"

About the former Rigel being the Melbourne...if that is indeed the case, its nacelles and pylons would have to have been completely removed, and the secondary hull would be really, really long,

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Frank's Home Page
"This song is dedicated to everyone in the audience tonight...WITH ONE EYE!" - John Linnell
 

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7 alarm clock: "Do not touch me."
Dilbert: "Then how do I turn you off?"
7: "Believe me, I am plenty turned off."
 

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Ross: "Inter arma, enim silent leges."
Bashir: "'In the time of war the law falls silent.' Cicero. Have we become a 24th-century Rome, driven by the fact that Caesar can do no wrong?!"
-Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges

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Ross: "Inter arma, enim silent leges."
Bashir: "'In the time of war the law falls silent.' Cicero. Have we become a 24th-century Rome, driven by the fact that Caesar can do no wrong?!"
-Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges

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7 alarm clock: "Do not touch me."
Dilbert: "Then how do I turn you off?"
7: "Believe me, I am plenty turned off."
 

go here as not to clutter up this thread:
http://flare.solareclipse.net/Forum9/HTML/000636.html

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"What a wonderful and amazing scheme have we here of the magnificent vastness of the Universe! So many Suns, so many Earths...!" - Christian Huygens, New Conjectures Concerning the Planetary Worlds, Their Inhabitants and Productions (ca 1670)

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"The things hollow--it goes on forever--and--oh my God!--it's full of stars!" -David Bowman's last transmission back to Earth, 2001: A Space Odyssey

The 359 Webpage

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7 alarm clock: "Do not touch me."
Dilbert: "Then how do I turn you off?"
7: "Believe me, I am plenty turned off."
 

Could be right about the saucer, but what are the extra cut out bits?

Frank Bernd : Finally made it.
 

What is odd is the angle of the superstructure below the bridge. It doesn't seem to be aligned with centerline at all - it's not along the center nacelle, nor exactly between the obvious impulse engines, but offset to port from its aft end.

Perhaps this is just an illusion created by lighting: I seem to see two fully lit ovals below the bridge, but perhaps what I take for the starboard edge of the upper oval is just a centerline ridge of some sort, and what I take for the starboard edge of the lower oval is in fact that of the upper oval. Uhh.. Does anybody understand what I'm trying to say? I guess I'm not making it easy...

The oval shapes do not convince me of Galaxy shuttlebay shapes. In fact, they are quite unlike any starship model components I've seen.

Timo Saloniemi
 

BTW: I just got sort of a final confirmation that the Galaxy saucer with the small nacelles is actually the Melbourne. Ed Miarecki showed his models to Markus Nee (who builds those famous kitbashes that don't look like kitbashes). Markus told me that the Nebula w/ small nacelles w/o pod was among them, apparently having the same damage as on the screencap. He is 95% sure about it.

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"A few more calculations"

Timo Saloniemi
 

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Frank's Home Page
"This song is dedicated to everyone in the audience tonight...WITH ONE EYE!" - John Linnell
 

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Jay Leno: "In the story of 'Jack and the Beanstalk', what did the goose lay?"
"Bosco": "Everybody."
-The Tonight Show, "Jaywalking"

[This message has been edited by TSN (edited February 19, 2000).]
 

Just curious - blur spotting again what is that 'ship' just near the top rim of the saucer section

to the top left?

Also, try fixing the Gamma correction - you might get more detail...

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"What a wonderful and amazing scheme have we here of the magnificent vastness of the Universe! So many Suns, so many Earths...!" - Christian Huygens, New Conjectures Concerning the Planetary Worlds, Their Inhabitants and Productions (ca 1670)

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takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory

[This message has been edited by targetemployee (edited February 19, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by targetemployee (edited February 19, 2000).]
 

The ship may in reality look much better than in the pictures. It might still be that the seemingly twisted saucer is in fact mounted quite straight, and the bridge superstructure simply is wider astern, shaped like a pear or something (the starboard parts would simply be in too deep a shadow to be seen). Can we contact Greg Jein to see if he has any photos or further info? It now seems well established that he's the one responsible for this beast.

Timo Saloniemi
 

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takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory
 

targetemployee: How can you know the secondary hull is Daedalus-like? All I could tell about it is that it's rather narrow and we don't know its length.

Note the bulge on the center nacelle? This looks very similar to the AGT Enterprise and the WoTW Galaxy-class.

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"A few more calculations"

He played a little with the unknown saucer from "Emissary", and found that a Constitution saucer would match the debris best.

I wonder if the dark part of the saucer is actually blown away (could it be the Melbourne?) or just shaded.

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"A few more calculations"

And is there even any need to compare it to the Sovvy and Akira, seeing how the models of those were non-existant at the time? :-)

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Jay Leno: "In the story of 'Jack and the Beanstalk', what did the goose lay?"
"Bosco": "Everybody."
-The Tonight Show, "Jaywalking"
 

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"What a wonderful and amazing scheme have we here of the magnificent vastness of the Universe! So many Suns, so many Earths...!" - Christian Huygens, New Conjectures Concerning the Planetary Worlds, Their Inhabitants and Productions (ca 1670)

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Frank's Home Page
"This song is dedicated to everyone in the audience tonight...WITH ONE EYE!" - John Linnell
 

------------------
Jay Leno: "In the story of 'Jack and the Beanstalk', what did the goose lay?"
"Bosco": "Everybody."
-The Tonight Show, "Jaywalking"
 

------------------
"What a wonderful and amazing scheme have we here of the magnificent vastness of the Universe! So many Suns, so many Earths...!" - Christian Huygens, New Conjectures Concerning the Planetary Worlds, Their Inhabitants and Productions (ca 1670)

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"The Starships of the Federation are the physical, tangible manifestations of Humanity�s stubborn insistence that life does indeed mean something."
Spock to Leonard McCoy in "Final Frontier"

 

Then again I havn't got a model kit to look at and I don't know if there would be any Escape pods or windows visible.
 

Sorry!
 

If we do assume two Galaxy saucer aft halves, then the saucer would be symmetric again and not off kilt wrt the rest of the ship. It is just the bridge superstructure that is at an odd angle (or in too deep shadows on the starboard side for its shape to be correctly determined).

And the secondary hull could well be a big Constitution hull, just camouflaged a bit.

Timo Saloniemi
 

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"What a wonderful and amazing scheme have we here of the magnificent vastness of the Universe! So many Suns, so many Earths...!" - Christian Huygens, New Conjectures Concerning the Planetary Worlds, Their Inhabitants and Productions (ca 1670)

[This message has been edited by AndrewR (edited February 23, 2000).]
 

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Frank's Home Page
"We were leaving New York this morning and we were checking in at the gate at the airport and the attendant said, 'You must be musicians,' and I said, 'Yes,' and she asked, 'What's the name of your band?,' and I said, 'We're called the Statesmen,' and she said, 'Oh, I've heard of you!'. I think if we'd said, you know, 'We're the Green Egg,' or something, she would have said the same thing." - John Linnell
 

Thanks

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-=/\=-
Captain Stark
http://beam.to/readyroom

"The man on the top walks a lonely path. The chain of command is often a noose." Dr. Leonard McCoy --Obsession, Stardate: 3619.2

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"You are stupid and evil and do not know you are stupid and evil."
--
Gene Ray, Cubic
 

------------------
7 alarm clock: "Do not touch me."
Dilbert: "Then how do I turn you off?"
7: "Believe me, I am plenty turned off."
 

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I do what the voices in my head tell me to do
 

Plus, it's not even a good design logically, because the Apollo's are all in the NCC-1xxxx range.

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"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."
-Mark Twain
 

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"Who wouldn't be the one you love
Who wouldn't stand inside your love." - Stand Inside Your Love, The Smashing Pumpkins
 

Enter at: http://www.FleetYard.com

-Chris
 

OK - and I like that front page... can you loose the 'spacedock' it sorta looks out of place - but that is just my opinion...

I LURVE your 'logo' though...

Andrew

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"Who wouldn't be the one you love
Who wouldn't stand inside your love." - Stand Inside Your Love, The Smashing Pumpkins
 

Just wanted to ask, do you think the Niagara screencap really is a bottom view, or was that a typo? Plus, the picture seems to show more clearly than before what is shadow and what is charring on that ship, and it does look as if the bridge superstructure is off kilt wrt the rest of the ship. Seems really weird. How could such damage (to the model, let alone the supposed ship) take place?

Timo Saloniemi
 

We know there was no real Tolstoy built for the episode. We also know the Rigels are supposed to have NCCs in the 62000 range. And we "know" that USS Melbourne was actually an Excelsior class ship. So why not use this clearly Nebula-related and thus justifiably 62000-registered, yet still externally quite distinct ship model as our Rigel, and forget all about it being named the Melbourne?

The name is probably utterly unreadable, considering the severe damage to the primary hull. And what little might remain of the registry would match both the Tolstoy and the Melbourne - both have NCC-620XX, and even the XX=43 and XX=95 look extremely similar from a distance!

Timo Saloniemi
 

Great job on your website!

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"A few more calculations"

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Homer: "I can see what's happening. They did it to Jesus, and now they're doing it to me."
Marge: "Are you comparing yourself to our lord?!"
Homer: "Well, in bowling ability..."
-The Simpsons
 

BTW: You're right the Niagara screencap is a top view (was just a little typo).

-Chris
 

1) She sees her just off screen from us, or peeking from behind a doreground ship, thanks to the 3D nature of the main screen (as you suggest, and I think this is the best answer). Shelby should have a better view than we do on the upper edge of the screen, and possibly also beyond the big saucer wreckage on the left foreground.

2) She sees the remains of the unidentifiable saucer on the foreground (never mind that they were Constitution in origin - in their current state, they could just as well be coming from an Excelsior, or from Battlestar Galactica!), and somehow realizes this was the Melbourne.

3) One of the ships in the distance is in fact an Excelsior, and Shelby has better eyesight than we do.

4) Shelby makes a mistake, and identifies a ship not of Excelsior class as the Melbourne.

In any case, now that we know how impossible it is to prove that the Nebula study model was the original Melbourne (because that model is so badly wrecked), every effort should be made to support the Excelsior alternative.

Timo Saloniemi
 

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"The Starships of the Federation are the physical, tangible manifestations of Humanity�s stubborn insistence that life does indeed mean something."
Spock to Leonard McCoy in "Final Frontier"

 

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"A few more calculations"
 

Rigel-At the slide shows Mike said that the Rigel looked like a Galaxy class saucer with 3 warp nacelles
and a Enterprise Refit secondary hull.I think that in his lateist interview he forgot about this because he did say that "I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm not remembering correctly. I don't have my notes here at the moment".However I hope he right about it not being on screen because that design would create some timeline problems.

Challenger-At the shows I think Mike was talking about the ship from ST6 not from BoBW2 and the ship in BoBW2 was in fact a modifided Galaxy with vertical warp nacelles.

Freedom-Same as one in FF

Apollo-Same as T-pau

Niagra-Same as one in FF

Springfield-Galaxy class saucer section with nacelles below hull

Cheyenne-No lower hull

Melbourne-same design as one in ready room

New Orleans-Nothing to add

Saucer warp engine ship from Embasary-Constellation saucer and 2 small warp nacelles.

Others in battle
3 execlsor variants
1 Enterprise variant
1 enterprise refit rear hull

Where can I get the TNG Companion ship list?

What's the name and registry of this 4-nacelled Nebula-model?

Last year I was on the Star Trek World Tour in Vienna. There I saw a plaque, which gives some ships of the battle:

U.S.S. Roosevelt
U.S.S. Klondike
U.S.S. Esteban
U.S.S. Watley
U.S.S. Volga
U.S.S. Tokyo
U.S.S. Everest
U.S.S. Maxwell
U.S.S. Gauss
U.S.S. Neptune
U.S.S. Vega
U.S.S. Pioneer
U.S.S. Nepal
U.S.S. Popovich
U.S.S. Falcon
U.S.S. Gemini
U.S.S. Vandenberg
U.S.S. Pueblo
U.S.S. Zetar
U.S.S. Peking
U.S.S. Beagle
U.S.S. Brahms
U.S.S. Rixx
U.S.S. Solaris
U.S.S. Khumbu
U.S.S. Shimoda
U.S.S. Marco Polo

Unfortunately no registry or class was given. Has anybody further information?

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"No matter where you go, there you are."

[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited March 17, 2000).]
 

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"Yes. I have seventeen brains! And eleven legs. And a pecan."
-Frank Gerratana, March 3, 2000

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"Yes. I have seventeen brains! And eleven legs. And a pecan."
-Frank Gerratana, March 3, 2000

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"No matter where you go, there you are."

[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited March 17, 2000).]
 

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"Yes. I have seventeen brains! And eleven legs. And a pecan."
-Frank Gerratana, March 3, 2000

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"No matter where you go, there you are."
 

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"Yes. I have seventeen brains! And eleven legs. And a pecan."
-Frank Gerratana, March 3, 2000

USS Esteban? USS Rixx? USS Maxwell? These are all Starfleet Captains. Two of which were still alive when the battle took place.

Brahms? Watley? More people who already existed.

Everest and Nepal both (Mt. Everest is in Nepal)

Vega, Zetar, Solaris, and Gemini, stars/constellations

It should be pretty obvious, but just in case, I am going to say it. These guys totally pulled these out of nowhere, but added some Trek Tidbits.

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"The things hollow--it goes on forever--and--oh my God!--it's full of stars!" -David Bowman's last transmission back to Earth, 2001: A Space Odyssey

The 359 Webpage

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"To make the merry-go-round go faster, so that everyone needs to hang on tighter, just to keep from being thrown to the wolves."
-They Might Be Giants, "They Might Be Giants"
 

I discount the USS Endeavor NCC-71805 for there is no evidence from "Scorpion, Part 1" that the ship fought the Borg at Wolf 359.
According to "The Drumhead", there were 39 ships lost in the battle. One or two ships survived the battle and picked up survivors.

------------------

takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory
 

------------------
"To make the merry-go-round go faster, so that everyone needs to hang on tighter, just to keep from being thrown to the wolves."
-They Might Be Giants, "They Might Be Giants"
 

------------------
"No matter where you go, there you are."
 

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Frank's Home Page
"This spontaneous stuff takes a little bit of planning." - John Flansburgh

 

Conclusion: the information from this Game are cannon??

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"No matter where you go, there you are."

[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited March 18, 2000).]
 

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"The Starships of the Federation are the physical, tangible manifestations of Humanity�s stubborn insistence that life does indeed mean something."
Spock to Leonard McCoy in "Final Frontier"

 

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"No matter where you go, there you are."
 

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Frank's Home Page
"This spontaneous stuff takes a little bit of planning." - John Flansburgh

 

------------------
"The Starships of the Federation are the physical, tangible manifestations of Humanity�s stubborn insistence that life does indeed mean something."
Spock to Leonard McCoy in "Final Frontier"

 

------------------
"What did it mean to fly? A tremor in your soul. To resist the dull insistance of gravity."
--
Camper Van Beethoven

 

------------------
"To make the merry-go-round go faster, so that everyone needs to hang on tighter, just to keep from being thrown to the wolves."
-They Might Be Giants, "They Might Be Giants"
 

As for your list, I see many are names from the Trek encyclopedia. And the Volga? That was/is a runabout assigned to DS9. The Roosevelt may have been also from the encyclopedia.

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"Life's a bitch, then you die"
-USS Vanderbilt, Vanderbuilt Class starship

 

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"To make the merry-go-round go faster, so that everyone needs to hang on tighter, just to keep from being thrown to the wolves."
-They Might Be Giants, "They Might Be Giants"
 

U.S.S. Roosevelt - The WT was after the epsiode "Unity" was aired, so the canon ship made it to the list.
U.S.S. Klondike
U.S.S. Volga - two rivers: Danube class?
U.S.S. Watley - Isn't that Bashir's great-grandmother?
U.S.S. Maxwell - This could be rather the famous scientist than the captain.
U.S.S. Gauss - another scientist - Oberth class?
U.S.S. Peking - I don't like it, but since the whole world speaks English, SF is likely to use the more common and easier spelling. Just like USS Danube which should habe been named either "Donau" or "Dunav" or "Dunava" in indigenous languages.
U.S.S. Shimoda - Jim Shimoda played the assistant to the chief engineer in "The Naked Now".

Summarizing, the names would make sense, if they were canon, but they are not.

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"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
Ex Astris Scientia
 

Can anyone tell me, what the plaque of this four-nacelled Nebula says?

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"No matter where you go, there you are."

[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited March 20, 2000).]
 

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"Treason, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder!" -Garak

Classes seen:

New Orleans, no doubt

Cheyenne, no doubt

*NO* Rigel Class, there was never a model made for this one

Challenger Class, probably the 'Niagara':

quote:

---

Description from Okuda:
"A scaled-down Galaxy-shaped saucer, and two warp nacelles, one above and the other below the engineering hull". - "The Buran was the above-and-below model that I had thought was the Chekov. I don't recall what Ed's original version of the Buran was, but I added the submarine parts and glued on the engines, although it looks like Ed assembled the engines. I thought it was a clever idea, but it ended up looking like a lollipop. Maybe Ed's version was a single nacelle, and I added the second." [note: O says he doesn't remember if Ed's model was a single-nac'er. I think Ed's Challenger was a two-naceller, O attached the *third* nacelle (the Galaxy one, so the two markerpen-nac's are original]

---

Excelsior Study 1

Excelsior Study 2

Excelsior Study 3, the four naceller from a few posts back. If you want pics please mention it

Nebula Study 2

Freedom Class, no doubt

Enterprise Study 1, no doubt

Note: Some starship models, including the Mars Defense ships and the Soliton Wave Rider (wich are the same) are built with a Revell Typhoon Class Russian submarine. Mail me for the schematics!

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"When You're Up to Your Ass in Alligators, Today Is the First Day of the Rest of Your Life."
-- Management slogan, Ridcully-style (Terry Pratchett, The Last Continent, Discworld)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prakesh's Star Trek Site

Remember how wide Galaxy's ass is. It looks more what it would look like with its nacels moved than it does like any of the Excelsior models, even if you do allow for blurring.

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Kiff! I have bedded a woman. Inform the crew.
- Zap Brannigan

 

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"We set sail on this new sea because their is new knowledge to be gained and new rights to be won" John F Kennedy

members.aol.com/mfwan/index.htm

[This message has been edited by nx001a (edited April 12, 2000).]
 

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"Compared to you, every male on this ship is an expert on women!"
-Geordi LaForge to Wesley Crusher, TNG: "Sarek"
 

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"The Starships of the Federation are the physical, tangible manifestations of Humanity�s stubborn insistence that life does indeed mean something."
Spock to Leonard McCoy in "Final Frontier"

 

------------------
"We set sail on this new sea because their is new knowledge to be gained and new rights to be won" John F Kennedy

members.aol.com/mfwan/index.htm

Besides, I always took it that the 39 ships lost were Federation vessels, without including Klingon losses.

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Devil: Oh look at the time! I'm late for services.
Stone: Services?
Devil: A group of young teenagers that have been celebrating the Black Sabbath are planning on deep-sixing their gym teacher tonight. I'm gonna go and give them a little encouragement.

Brimstone. May it rest in syndication.

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"There is only one thing in war, and that is victory" - Farragut
 

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"What did it mean to fly? A tremor in your soul. To resist the dull insistance of gravity."
--
Camper Van Beethoven

 

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"There is only one thing in war, and that is victory" - Farragut

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"What did it mean to fly? A tremor in your soul. To resist the dull insistance of gravity."
--
Camper Van Beethoven

 

Perhaps the Klingons intercepted the putative second cube that was carrying assimilees from the Wolf 359 massacre towards Delta quadrant and an eventual stranding on the "Unity planet"?

Timo Saloniemi
 

Has there been an official explanation for the stranded Borg in 'Unity'?

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"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."
-Mark Twain
 

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"What did it mean to fly? A tremor in your soul. To resist the dull insistance of gravity."
--
Camper Van Beethoven

 

Finally, i think a second borg came along and picked up the people assimilated at Worf 359.

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"We set sail on this new sea because their is new knowledge to be gained and new rights to be won" John F Kennedy

members.aol.com/mfwan/index.htm

1. We have never seen or heard of this new Cube, and
2. Herself on the 'Unity' planet mentions that the Klingons didn't get along with the Cardassians, and two other races whom I've never heard of before couldn't get along either. Thay all couldn't have been at Wolf 359.

UNLESS
the new aliens were already assimilated by the Collective before they tried to attack Earth.
I mean, we've seen a Borg-ified Cardassian in 'First Contact', which means he must have been assimilated by the Borg in an encounter other than Wolf 359, which in any case, the Cardassians weren't even invented by then.(I think! ), because if what Timo porposed happened, then he (the Cardie) couldn't have been present in FC.

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Devil: Oh look at the time! I'm late for services.
Stone: Services?
Devil: A group of young teenagers that have been celebrating the Black Sabbath are planning on deep-sixing their gym teacher tonight. I'm gonna go and give them a little encouragement.

Brimstone. May it rest in syndication.

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Cluck cluck jibber jibber, my old man's a mushroom etc.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

2) It would be easy to explain the Romulan, since the Borg supposedly cross Romulan territory before they reach the Federation. I have a lot more problems to explain the frequent occurence of Alpha Borg in Voyager, for instance in "Infinite Regress".

3) Reverend, are you the Reverend I suppose you are? Anyway, welcome to the forum.

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"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
Ex Astris Scientia
 

------------------
"We set sail on this new sea because their is new knowledge to be gained and new rights to be won" John F Kennedy

members.aol.com/mfwan/index.htm

------------------
"Compared to you, every male on this ship is an expert on women!"
-Geordi LaForge to Wesley Crusher, TNG: "Sarek"
 

------------------
-At least I can get it up without biomechanical pumps.
-Try falling into a pit of lava, Moffy. Then see how horny you feel.

 

------------------
"We set sail on this new sea because their is new knowledge to be gained and new rights to be won" John F Kennedy

members.aol.com/mfwan/index.htm

------------------
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."
-Mark Twain
 

It's My Opinion that it's from the USS Saratoga or USS Bellerophen. Note the Galaxy Escape Pod in the Center with what looks like a Small Hazard Marker near it. this would have been on the Saucer and near the Edge of a Ship that exploded. It's possably from a Ship we know notrhing about
there are 15 ships named as we all know out of the 40 ships that were there

I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on that

Defiant

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"Whos the More Foolosh?. the Fool or the Fool who follows him"

 

Hmm...on page two (in February!), I said the following:

"If Okuda gets us an image of the quad-nacelled ship, I will never say anything bad about him ever again and I will send him a birthday card every year until the end of the century."

Uh...um...does anyone know when Okuda's birthday is?

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Frank's Home Page
"Tetris is, and this is fact people, confirmed by the Rand Corporation; fifteen thousand times more addictive than crack. I spent three years in a Tetris-induced haze, barely eating, wandering the streets panhandling for Gameboy batteries." - Simon Sizer
 

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7 alarm clock: "Do not touch me."
Dilbert: "Then how do I turn you off?"
7: "Believe me, I am plenty turned off."

 

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"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
Ex Astris Scientia
 

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Frank's Home Page
"Tetris is, and this is fact people, confirmed by the Rand Corporation; fifteen thousand times more addictive than crack. I spent three years in a Tetris-induced haze, barely eating, wandering the streets panhandling for Gameboy batteries." - Simon Sizer
 

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http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/9268/index.html

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Captain Tenille: "Oh, Simpson, you're like the son I never had."
Homer: "And you're like the father I never visit."

 

------------------
7 alarm clock: "Do not touch me."
Dilbert: "Then how do I turn you off?"
7: "Believe me, I am plenty turned off."

 

------------------
Frank's Home Page
"Tetris is, and this is fact people, confirmed by the Rand Corporation; fifteen thousand times more addictive than crack. I spent three years in a Tetris-induced haze, barely eating, wandering the streets panhandling for Gameboy batteries." - Simon Sizer
 

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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

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"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
Ex Astris Scientia
 

Possibly why we haven't seen the Saratoga's, Bellerphon's and Bonestall's is because this fight was fought in a long distance. With the fleet chasing the cube down and cube just destroys each one like swatting a fly. In a effect leaving a trail-like wreckage in Wolf 359. What we saw in the Emmissary is probably the first attack on the Borg cube. What we saw in BoBW was probably towards the middle of the battle.

Now if Starfleet used a 'flying wall' tactic or kamakazi tactic we would not see Picard anymore.

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It is better to walk the path of the devil than to be in the path of the devil. Though it still might not be the right path.

 

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But the dead only quickly decay. They don't go about being born and reborn and rising and falling like souffle. The dead only quickly decay.
--
Gothic Archies
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! For the love of God, Montressor!

 

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It doesn't matter if you don't know what you're doing as long as you look good doing it.

One thing that has been puzzling me about the effort of identifying BoBW shipwrecks:

Did we ever conclusively see the old Ralph McQuarrie ship (Enterprise study model for the abortive pre-TMP, pre-Phase II movie project) at Wolf 359? Or are we just assuming it must have been there since it was so clearly seen in Unification, among all those other reuses of BoBW wreckage footage? I've been unable to spot the ship in any of the BoBW screencaps, but I don't have a good-quality BoBW tape so I can't vouch that there isn't a scene that would feature it.

I'd be far happier if the ship was only present at Qualor II. Everything in it reeks of TOS or pre-TOS: the nacelle shapes, the saucer shapes, surface color, decaling... An antiquity from the good old days of pre-TOS would credibly be present at the Qualor junkyard, but not so credibly bolstering Earth's final line of defence in 2367.

Timo Saloniemi
 

Maybe the ose TOS ships might be flying bombs relaunched from the mothball fleet or something.

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It is better to walk the path of the devil than to be in the path of the devil. Though it still might not be the right path.

 

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I am not good with English but excuses me. I hate you whom think bad of the gods of the thunder known under the name of ""Metallica"". Good tape of ""Metallica"" is ""Load"", that you like it or not. A much better tape of Metallica ""Load"" than overrated the tape known under the name of ""Iron Maiden"" ""Powerslave"". You all are penis for the bad one of thought about ""Lars"". ""Lars"" can take a cucumber in bottom of his throat without reflex of muzzle. Lars can too take cucumber in bottom with no stretching of bottom hole sphincter muscle. Thanks for reading.
--
an anonymous fan
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Because I'm saving all my love for you.

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"The Starships of the Federation are the physical, tangible manifestations of Humanity�s stubborn insistence that life does indeed mean something."
Spock to Leonard McCoy in "Final Frontier"

 

In addition to the two McQuarrie ships, at least the Phase II shuttlecraft and the more Excelsiorlike of the two "Art of ST" study models may have been omitted altogether, despite being reported as having been available. At least they can't be proven to have been in the battle at all. If so, I sure don't want to cling to the idea that Starfleet employed the McQuarrie designs at Wolf 359, unless I absolutely have to.

Timo Saloniemi
 

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"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
Ex Astris Scientia
 

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"Huh. An intelligent guard. I never would have guessed."
-Preed, Titan A.E.

[This message has been edited by Fabrux (edited July 21, 2000).]
 

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"The Starships of the Federation are the physical, tangible manifestations of Humanity�s stubborn insistence that life does indeed mean something."
Spock to Leonard McCoy in "Final Frontier"

 

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"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
Ex Astris Scientia
 

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Advertisement in the United Federation NewsPADD, SD 53675:

"Now for sale at your local dealer: Antares class vessels, as good as new! They can shapeshift! Everybody in the galaxy has one! Now for only $800!"

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"Fragile. Do not drop"
--posted on a Boeing 757
 

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Frank's Home Page
"However, trying to convince your friends to learn a language is about as easy to do as getting a date with the pickup line 'Have you been to Weight Watchers?'" - How To Invent A Real Language

 

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"Fragile. Do not drop"
--posted on a Boeing 757
 

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Frank's Home Page
"Gandalf DIES in the mines of Moria, but will later be RESURRECTED in GLORIFIED form having triumphed over EVIL, an obvious literary ALLUSION to that movie where the guy comes back as a DOG." - The Fellowship of the Ring
 

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Advertisement in the United Federation NewsPADD, SD 53675:

"Now for sale at your local dealer: Antares class vessels, as good as new! They can shapeshift! Everybody in the galaxy has one! Now for only $800!"

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"Fragile. Do not drop"
--posted on a Boeing 757
 

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"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
Ex Astris Scientia
 

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"Neil says hi by the way" - Tear In Your Hand, Tori Amos

I'd think that as few "alien" models as possible would have been used in filming the Wolf 359 scenes, since the script called for a *Starfleet* armada to be massacred. The Talarian design doesn't strike me as something the VFX people would accept as Starfleet-looking. Then again, nor do the Mars Defence Perimeter craft... But those at least had identifiable nacelles.

Timo Saloniemi
 

"2) Some more proof that Admiral Hanson's ship was the Excelsior-class Melbourne. In BoBW, Riker gets word that the fleet has engaged the Borg at Wolf 359. Riker arrives at the bridge, and Hanson's ship looses contact within seconds. Now, in "Emissary", we see the fleet engage the Borg (Locutus on the Saratoga's viewscreen). Now, immediatly after they engage the Borg, the Excelsior class Melbourne's saucer is obliterated. This explains the lost contact with Hanson."

One thing that bugs me is why a lot of people base the Nebula theory on the USS Melbourne model in Riker's desk in Future Imperfect. Note that the episode is set AFTER the battle of Wolf 359 and it was in an imaginery future. We could even assume that a new Nebula class Melbourne was built after the battle. Even though the writers initially wanted the Melbourne to be the Nebula, maybe they realized that they made a mistake because Hanson was in an Excelsior class ship as seen in BOBW part 1 so they changed it when they filmed The Emmisary. The old style bridge seen while he was communicating with the Enterprise(with the red alert screen similar to the constitution class Enterprise seen in the movies) seem to indicate that he was in an older 23rd century style ship. The Melbourne was offered to Riker because it has no captain. In the meantime, Admiral Hanson uses it as his ship while it is captainless and since he had to engage in battle, it is his flagship(the flagship doesn't have to be the biggest or most powerful ship in the fleet since in DS9, the little Defiant was practically the command ship in Sacrifice of the Angels and Tears of the Prophets). I watched and analyzed the Shelby in the bridge scene again and again and when she said Melbourne, the camera wasn't really showing her point at any specific ship in the wreckage. Riker's facial expression was in grief when she said that partly because it was suppose to be his ship but also probably because of his reaction to the destruction of the ship where Admiral Hanson has died(this after being promoted by him and showing confidence to Picard's resistance).
 

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ALPHA CENTAURI

Human Class - Starfleet registry NCC-75715
Launched stardate 8311.23 - Parental Biology Yards
United Federation of Planets

"A dedication motto? What about it?" - Alpha Centauri

 

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"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
Ex Astris Scientia
 

This sort of ventral hull could house a navigational deflector in front, thus making for one less TNG-era ship that would lack the ah so vital deflector. And this relatively shallow ventral hull would be consistent with the other Springfield image, and would in fact help explain the slight nose-up attitude of the ship in that image.

If (if!) the Springfield really has this sort of a ventral hull, then there's the very real possibility that the Cheyenne, a starship by the same manufacturer, would also have a similarly small ventral addition, complete with a nav deflector...

Timo Saloniemi
 

quote:

---

...the other Springfield image,...

---

How come so many people know this picture, and I don't

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"Human race in tha house!" KoRn & Kittie, This Town
---
Titan Fleet Yards - Harry Doddema's Star Trek Site

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"It's like the Star of David or something. But without the whole Judaism thing."
-Frank Gerratana, 17-Aug-2000
 

I think I see what Timo's talking about....it's a slight bump, barely distiguishable, but it couls also be because of the poor grayscaled photnegativity of the image.

Although I MUST admit, the "bloated gondola" hull concept is a WICKED idea....

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"What if, the next time someone tried to pull up a dandelion, it pulled back? What if the dandelion ducked under the blades of the lawnmower?" --Del
 

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"It's like the Star of David or something. But without the whole Judaism thing."
-Frank Gerratana, 17-Aug-2000
 

I thought I'd maybe add my 2c worth, incase anyone wasn't seeing what I was seeing!?!

Andrew

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"I threw bitter tears at the ocean
But all that came back was the tide..." 'I Will Not Forget You' Sarah McLachlan

 

The Encyclopedia (I think. Some reputable source, at least) says that the reason the model was changed was because the Excelsior model was far more detailed, and thus better suited to a close-up.

The registry number of USS Melbourne is smack in the middle of a bunch of Nebula Class ships, and far higher than any other Excelsior Class seen. Regardless of which numbering system you think Starfleet uses, this would seem to suggest that they stopped making Excelsiors long before the Melbourne was built.

For these reasons, I have decided that the Encyclopedia is wrong, and that DS9 "Emissary" has an on-screen error, and that the Melbourne was a Nebula Class vessel.

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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

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"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
Ex Astris Scientia
 

Okay, everybody, place your picture of the Nebula study model from "BoBW" on your screen (you know, the one where the ship is in the middle of the E-D viewscreen). Now place the picture of the mystery ship next to the exploding USS Saratoga in "Emissary" there, too. Flip the latter 90 degrees clockwise. Kick yourself savagely on appropriate body parts for not seeing this before Dukhat did.

At least I am totally convinced Dukhat is right here. The damage patterns seem identical. The only discrepancy is that I can't see the main port nacelle in the "Emissary" picture, even though it is in place in the "BoBW" pics. There's only this small white blob instead of an entire nacelle in the "Emissary" view. Or is there more if you are watching with better equipment than mine?

Timo Saloniemi
 

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
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"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Forum Member Who Shall Be Nameless. 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001

Boris
 

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Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram
 

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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant
Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them

"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV

"Well, that's it then. Attack pattern...hmmm...ALPHA! That'll have them confused."

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram
 

@#@$%&*@!!!

(just kidding )

Although...the one year anniversary of the start of this thread is tomorrow...
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Star Trek: Legacy

[This message has been edited by Dukhat (edited February 07, 2001).]
 

It can't be:
Enterprise (Like, duh)
Odyssey
Yamato
Venture
Galaxy
Challanger (If we want to assume, from its registry, that it was part of the original set.)

That's six ships. But there is one other. The Trinculo. I can't seem to remember where it's from. That is, I know it appeared on Okuda's infamous convention tour (or think I know), but what episode was it supposedly from?

Anyway, again if we want to preserve the tech manual notion, it seems that there are not any Galaxies to spare. However, we do have the six partially constructed ships, also from the manual. It is possible one of these was put together as a replacement for the Yamato, which would give us one unnamed vessel free for Hanson to get blown up in.

Of course, we could just as easily say that one or more of the known ships are not original build Galaxies at all. Or we could just toss out the whole six ship paradigm completely.

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I will shout until they know what I mean.
--
Neutral Milk Hotel
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Then, go insane!

Enterprise-D is obvious, she was too far away.

Odyssey is obvious too, as far as I know, no ships escaped Wolf 359, so if she'd been there, she'd be dead (and we need her alive to die at the "hands" of the Jem'Hadar four years later)

Challenger is obvious too, for her appearance in the VOY ep and the reasons listed above.

The Yamato's already gone to that great Starship Junkyard in the Sky.

But ... we've no info on the Galaxy ('cept that she was the proto-type) or the Venture (which I don't recall being mentioned at all). Why couldn't it have been one of these two?

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Forum Member Who Shall Be Nameless. 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001

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"Lately I've noticed that everyone seems to trust me. It's really quite unnerving. I'm still trying to get used to it."
- Garak, "Empok Nor"
 

And, I got the impression that Hanson was on the bridge of a ship -- I assumed the Melbourne. I take it this was not in fact the case?

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Forum Member Who Shall Be Nameless. 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited February 07, 2001).]
 

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"No, 3 & 6 are mandatory, so you only have to do them if you want"

Alex, fellow classmate, trying to explain an assignment (2/2/01)
 

So, what evidence is there that a Galaxy-Class was even AT Wolf 359? I mean, come to think of it, even if Hanson had been on one, do you think he woulda been on the saucer section's ready room? Presumably, the ship would have a large civilian population aboard, so the saucer should have been seperated (unless Keogh, jr. was aboard) -- so Hanson, if anything, should have been on a Stardrive Section Ready Room.

But I digress.

I'd agree that he was probably on the Melbourne during the crisis, which would explain the older style bridge design -- the Excelsior-Class is predominantly movie.

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Forum Member Who Shall Be Nameless. 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001

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[Bart's looking for his dog.]
Groundskeeper Willy: Yeah, I bought your mutt - and I 'ate 'im! [Bart gasps.] I 'ate 'is little face, I 'ate 'is guts, and I 'ate the way 'e's always barkin'! So I gave 'im to the church.
Bart: Ohhh, I see... you HATE him, so you gave him to the church.
Groundskeeper Willy: Aye. I also 'ate the mess he left on me rug. [Bart stares.] Ya heard me!

 

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram
 

Yamato: "Where Silence Has Lease" (fake ship created by an alien), "Contagion" (real ship, destroyed in the episode - Captain Varley, Science Officer Ramsay, IIRC).

The other three Galaxies mentioned by name outside TNG were the late Odyssey (DS9 "Jem'Hadar"), Venture (DS9 "Way of the Warrior") and Challenger (VOY "Timeless") - and IIRC the Galaxy was spotted in the battle of Chin'toka in "Tears of the Prophets". The rest of the Galaxies seen didn't probably even have names and registries on their hulls.

Timo Saloniemi
 

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Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

[This message has been edited by Nimrod (edited February 08, 2001).]
 

The Melbourne could have had a refit twenty-years earlier and still been performing up to specs. The Ent-C graphics weren't that much different so that idea might work, yes?
 

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I will shout until they know what I mean.
--
Neutral Milk Hotel
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Then, go insane!

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"We set sail on this new sea because their is new knowledge to be gained and new rights to be won" John F Kennedy

members.aol.com/mfwan/index.htm

I don't think Excelsior-Classes have a high refit rate. I'd imagine every few decades for a major upgrade, maybe less. If you can imagine the Melbourne as at the end of a refit cycle (and due for another), then it doesn't take too much to believe that the ship had her last major refit thirty or forty years later, thus accounting for the aged appearance of her bridge stations ...

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
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"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Forum Member Who Shall Be Nameless. 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001

I will always stand by the Nebula-Melbourne. She was in both "BoBW" and "Emissary", the registry fits, and she was in Riker's ready room in "Future Imperfect" (which *was* 3rd season, thank you!). All the Excelsior-Melbourne has going for it is seeing the registry semi-clearly, which as we all know counts for naught in Trek. ;-)

While I'm thinking of Excelsiors, any theories as to what the second Excelsiorin Spacedock in ST IV was? Could have been the Repulse, or the Roosevelt -- I personally like Yorktown, the ship Tuvok's parents were serving on at the time of ST VI. True, that last is not referenced as an Excelsior in any way, but it makes sense when considering the circumstantial evidence of 1) the official Paramount party-line that the E-A is the Connie-Yorktown renamed, and 2) the general trend of Starfleet toward the Excelsior class at about that time.

Are we all settled now on the indentifications of the Princeton, Freedom, Ahwahnee, Kyushu, and the unnamed (retired E-A?) movie-Constitution in the graveyard?

I still haven't spotted the Chekov or the Buran, but I haven't stopped squinting. I'm happy with the pics and extrapolations of the former. The Buran, however, doesn't work for me in its existing configuration. Ask Bernd and several others on here who know me -- I much prefer a configuration with straight-horizontally-opposing nacelles, rather than straight-vertical. If anyone's positive of a shot and location in which the Buran can be seen, let me know. Until then, I'll maintain my happy little dreamworld that the orientation of the Buran's engines is a result of either bad resolution or battle damage. :-D

I personally like the better of the two McQuarrie Enterprises to carry the Apollo label, and have spent some time with pencil and eraser trying to make it look more Trek-ish. I think I have succeeded, but to continue (in AutoCAD) I need measurements of the Excelsior primary hull, and the bridge superstructure of the Ambassador. Help appreciated.

And to finish, while I'm thinking of AutoCAD, how badly do you all think I'd get stoned for drafting up some revised TOS Enterprise deckplans that take into account what Matt Jeffries intended and what we saw onscreen -- both of which would end up badly contradicting the FJ deckplans?

I think I'm through for the moment...

--Jonah

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"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH
 

The Melbourne was Excelsior, which is pretty dammed clear if you saw the first teaser and few acts of BoBW, in which the Enterprise Galaxy-Class and Melbourne Excelsior-Class are orbiting the Borg-attacked world and Hanson is identified to have arrived aboard the Melbourne.

I'm sorry, did you say there was another Excelsior in Star Trek III? Where?
 

(in Picard's ready room)
Picard: "One's available?"
Hansen: "The Melbourne. It's his if he wants it."

...and...

(again in Picard's ready room)
Picard: "You've been offered the Melbourne."

At no point is there a connection between this mystery Melbourne and the ship Hansen arrived in, but you and the "Emissary" VFX producers and quite a few others are happy to forge one anyway. I can see the rationalization, but I don't subscribe to it.

And the second Excelsior is in ST IV, not III. You need the widescreen edition to spot it, and a good eye for camera angles. Basically, in one shot the Excelsior is pointed directly at the space doors, and in another she's broadside to the doors. This isn't the sort of goof ILM makes, so we assume it's intentional.

And something I forgot earlier... All the discussion about lack of secondary hulls/deflectors is almost painful to me. Every ship that has a Galaxy-type saucer probably also has the saucer-mounted deflectors. And I'd be happy to extend that to the other contemporary ships out there (the Freedom class for instance). As for the Miranda not having one... Anyone else here remember when the big dish was the main sensor? And the deflectors were the greeblies flanking it? The Miranda has those greeblies mounted on the hull and torpedo pod. Just no real long-range sensor capability -- as evidenced by the Reliant's inability to find the Enterprise when the Enterprise could track the Reliant just fine (when they were playing tag around Regulus). What did fandom call them again? "Space-Energy/Matter Field Attraction Sensors" or some shite...

<\rant>

--Jonah

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"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH
 

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takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory
 

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.27 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with four eps posted)
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"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Forum Member Who Shall Be Nameless. 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001

One could say that this Excelsior did at least go from Jouret to the battle of Wolf 359, since it would make little sense for Hanson to change ships en route if he was in a hurry. And apparently, the "ferry Excelsior" didn't stay and linger anywhere near Jouret, since soon after Hanson's departure, the nearest Starfleet assets are 6 days away - shouldn't that ship be counted as an asset if she's still around, even if she's a little bit older, slower and weaker than the E-D?

Timo Saloniemi
 

Hanson arrives on the Melbourne at Jouret.

Hanson leaves on the Melbourne, and commands the Battle for Wolf 359 from the Melbourne. He is aboard the Melbourne when he communicates to the Enterprise-D

This is why there is such emotion when the Enterprise arrives at Wolf 359. Shelby is identifying the ships ... "the Tolstoi, the Tripoli ... the Melbourne..." (I'm making some of these names up, BTW)

Riker and Shelby both become downcast, because they know that Hanson was aboard the Melbourne. And it makes no sense for Hanson to switch from an Excelsior- to a Nebula- class. Also, the background of the communication scene backs up that Hanson was on an older class of starship.

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.27 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with four eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Forum Member Who Shall Be Nameless. 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001

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You know, you really should keep a personal log. Why bore others needlessly?
The Gigantic Collection of Star Trek Minutiae
 

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.27 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with four eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Forum Member Who Shall Be Nameless. 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram
 

quote:

---

Yeah, "Emissary" establishes that the Excelsior-Class is the Melbourne, doesn't it? Hah! Proof positive

---

The Nebula with the additional warp nacelles in Emissary was labeled with Melbourne too.

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"Second star to the right, and then straight on till morning."

Other points I might as well get out on the table now, so as to concentrate any outrage into a single place:

I also believe the Crazy Horse and Pegasus are properly Cheyenne-class. The forms they appeared in was a result of lack of foresight.

The Yamato's registry is NCC-71807, not NCC-1305-E.

And it's Brattain, dammit.

Now then. Yes, the Melbourne was also mentioned in "11001001". No, we didn't see it. What I meant in my above post was that those were the only other times the name Melbourne was mentioned in "BoBW".

And just because we saw it onscreen doesn't mean it's correct (*cough* Defiant *cough*).

--Jonah

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"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH

 

Crazy Horse was an Excelsior...

Pegasus was an Oberth...

Regardless of what TPTB "planned" them to be, it doesn't change the fact that they are what we saw.

And the same goes for the Melbourne. It's an Excelsior, it's the only one we saw with the actual name and number on it. Hell, we didn't even see the Nebula one until we figured out it WASN'T the Rigel class in the wreckage!

I don't see why people want to believe the LESS logical of the two sides, and then come up with far-fetched reasons for why they are right...

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"No, 3 & 6 are mandatory, so you only have to do them if you want"

Alex, fellow classmate, trying to explain an assignment (2/2/01)
 

I didn't say ignore what's onscreen. Just take what onscreen with several solar masses of Sodium Chloride. As nice as it would be to just accept things as they ended up onscreen, the laziness inherent in the system has created many little flaws, mistakes, and contradictions that a completist canNOT just sweep off into a dark little corner and ignore. Mike Okuda intended the Crazy Horse and Pegasus to be Cheyennes. VFX budget couldn't allow that. I wouldn't have had as much of a problem with it if they'd then simply used different names and registries for the ships we eventually saw onscreen, but they didn't. It's worse in the case of the Pegasus, thanks to the clearly visible displays in engineering that show four long nacelles.

As for the Melbourne? Go read Bernd's Wolf 359 research page, for one. Take a gander at the two pics of the Melbourne miniature. As soon as I saw those, I went back and re-watched "BoBW". What I'd first taken for a smudge is the registry. If it weren't for the resolution limits of TV and video tape, it would be legible -- for the record, the clearest and largest one in that episode. Same holds for "Emissary", even though I almost passed out from holding myself upside down to see it better.

The ship in "Night Terrors" is Brattain, not Brittain. There is someone very specific it was named after, rationalizations be damned.

One cannot cling to the "TPTB can do no wrong" position. They can, they have, they will. Maybe if I can convince Mike to float the idea of a Special Edition treatment for the last three series to fix some of those mistakes... and maybe toss in some neat new stuff, too. I for one would love to see the other three ships in "Conspiracy" and a properly-choreographed battle in DS9.

Also, why is everyone so quick to dismiss the list from the exhibit that Fitz told us about? I see nothing wrong with it except potentially the "Peking" spelling. Granted, it brings our total to 42 ships, but I've always believed the unarmed Oberths were there to evauate the lifeboats, and thus the Bonestell isn't counted in the "40 starships" figure. Additional circumstantial evidence being in Star Trek IV, "two starships and three smaller vessels" were disabled by the Probe -- the two starships being the Saratoga and Yorktown, and one of the others being the Oberth-class Shepard. So the Bonestell wouldn't count as a starship anyway.

--Jonah

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"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH

 

I would like to point out though, that the Enterprise didn't *track* the Reliant in the Nebula, she just made some damn lucky guesses and turns. Which just so happened to bring her to the right place at the right time. Remember the effects of the nebula were supposed to make the sensors and shields inoperable. Both ships were blind and defenseless. "The odds are even," Spock said.
 

--Jonah

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"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH

 

1) Where has it ever been said that Oberths are unarmed? In fact, when have we even seen them in a fight?

2) How do you know the Shepard is an Oberth?

3) The last digit of the registry on the Nebula-Melbourne is unreadible (which is why I created a topic giving the idea that TPTB may have put the model in to represent the wreckage of the Bellerephon, who's registry has the same first 4 digits as the Melbourne).

4) It is utterly IMPOSSIBLE to read ANYTHING off the Nebula-Melbourne in either episodes, no matter how great your TV or VCR is...

5) Since when does the Pegasus and Crazy Horse HAVE to be a Cheyenne Class? Just because the Pegasus had a graphic with 4 nacelles, it simply MUST be a Cheyenne? We discussed this, and an idea popped up that the representation may be for a new form of nacelle OR for halves of the nacelles. And the Crazy Horse could be whatever class TPTB wanted it to be, yet they used Excelsior, so the Crazy Horse IS an Excelsior.

6) Of course they don't put seperate registries and names on all the models, because they weren't going to do anything except sit there and look destroyed! They weren't meant to be read! I mean, seriously, do you want us to put U.S.S. Alka-Selsior on our starship lists just because they didn't want to put a REAL name on there?

7) The plaque from the World Tour not only has a lot of mistakes, but it also isn't created by anyone we know who actually weighs any influence on the Trek universe. If you add the plaque to the Trek Universe, you might as well add every single Trek-related publication known to exist.

8) From an earlier post, you said "ILM can do no wrong". Trust me, anyone can do no wrong. There is only 1 Excelsior in Spacedock in Star Trek IV, the good ol' NX-2000.

9) The Reliant's sensors may have been damaged worse then Enterprises. Khan probably didn't want to put power to sensors, so he concetrated on what he would need to kill Kirk.

10) God no.....it's done......

------------------
"No, 3 & 6 are mandatory, so you only have to do them if you want"

Alex, fellow classmate, trying to explain an assignment (2/2/01)
 

2) Behind-the-scenes info for ST IV.

3) Even though the small nacelles are visible on the Melbourne wreck, and the Bellerophon had a blatant wedge?

4) I didn't say I could. I just said that now that I knew what I was looking for, I could spot it easily. And, that were we dealing with film stock instead of the resolution limitations of both the videotape the footage was filmed on, AND later recorded on, as well as the limitations of conventional television resolution... it WOULD be legible.

5) *wank wank wank* As if TPTB actually made a well-researched decision in either of those cases. If they had, they would have almost CERTAINLY used different names for the ships in question. In both cases, it was determined that the VFX budget couldn't handle building a proper filming miniature of a Cheyenne-class ship, but not before the groundwork was laid in the episode. In the case of the Crazy Horse, they just went with the stock "random-Excelsior-rendezvousing-with-the-Enterprise" footage, and in the case of the Pegasus, the Ambassador miniature had been mislaid, and the most convenient one at hand was the venerable Oberth (this from conversations on the subject with Mike). And in the end, it wasn't deemed important enough to go back and fix the stuff in the principle photography footage that used the Cheyenne-class-derived references. Not even with overdubbing in the case of the relatively-easy-to-fudge Crazy Horse. Like the Constitution-to-Constellation fix in "The Battle". So we end up with an Excelsior with a registry far higher than Mike intended Excelsiors to have. Rather than say "we made a VFX decision that contradicted what I said earlier", he just quietly changed the entries and listings for the Crazy Horse from Cheyenne-class (Encyclopedia Vol. 1) to Excelsior-class (everything since) without changing the never-actually-seen registry. *grump*

6) They put names and registries on all the models they actually BUILT for the scene (Buran, Chekov, Melbourne, Kyushu, Ahwahnee, Princeton, Firebrand). They just didn't do anything to modify the various study models they tossed in to pad the background.

7) How does it have a lot of mistakes? If you add those ships to the ones we already knew, we end up with 42 total, which fits amazingly well. I also don't know WHO created the plaque for the World Tour. But I'll make a point to ask Mike the next time I talk to him if he knows, unless one of you guys can tell me.

8) Maybe yes, maybe no. It's irrelevent to this thread, and impossible to resolve without actually talking to the VFX crew.

9) Good point, but we have no real way of knowing either way. But considering neither the bridge sensor dome nor the main sensor array on the bottom of the saucer were actually hit, I doubt it.

10) Zuh...?

--Jonah

------------------
"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH

 

Bernd sent me a few months ago this picture of the Nebula-Melbourne.
And after zooming the pic of the model on his site you can read a "3".

------------------
"Second star to the right, and then straight on till morning."

[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited February 12, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited February 12, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited February 12, 2001).]
 

Sure, we saw a ship broadside to the spacedoors, and sure, the ship was at such an angle that we couldn't easily read the NX-2000 on her hull. And I agree there's no reason to specifically claim that Starfleet didn't have two or three Excelsiors in its arsenal at that time.

But wouldn't the spacedock have several doors? At least four of them, probably, or if the exterior views do not support this, then three or two. That would easily account for the observed orientation of the supposedly powerless ship.

As for the Melbournes, either we have to accept two identically registered and named ships (since the two models both were thus labeled), or then ignore one set of registries. If we choose the latter option, the Nebula registry is easier to twist into something else because a) that's what the Encyclopedia wants us to do and b) that registry was NEVER seen completely intact on screen, while the Excelsior registry was seen for a brief moment.

So switching the last number of the Nebula into an 8 should be easy (the ventral side was never onscreen and even the actual model number could be reinterpreted because of all the damage). Switching the name would require more effort, though, since it was relatively undamaged - happily, it could not be resolved in the episode, and I very, very much doubt even a DVD would show it more clearly. So USS Wellhorne (NCC-62048) it is.

Timo Saloniemi
 

------------------
"No, 3 & 6 are mandatory, so you only have to do them if you want"

Alex, fellow classmate, trying to explain an assignment (2/2/01)
 

I just watched BoBW pt. 1.

The Excelsior is not specificly said to be the Excelsior. Shit. Now the Melbourne is an Excelsior theory looks more plausable to me, except for one thing (Hanson on the older-style bridge, presumably the Excelsior, which is then sorta-identified to be the Melbourne, by the pause given...)

ARGH!!!

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.27 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with four eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Forum Member Who Shall Be Nameless. 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001

Oh. Jeff? We've only had one reference to a ship named Excelsior in current era, and that was on Deep Space Nine. If you want to get technical, that footage was of the Enterprise rendezvousing with the Hood, which was originally filmed for "Encounter at Farpoint" and used for every "Enterprise rendezvousing with a ship (always an Excelsior-class for some reason)" shot since. Point is, it wasn't referred to AT ALL in either episode. Nor was the Melbourne referred to as Hanson's flagship during the battle. Nothing wrong with him commanding things from the bridge of his Excelsior -- whatever she was named. And after "Emissary", we went back and read all sorts of new meaning into pre-existing reaction shots of Shelby and Riker to the carnage. At the time, the only reason for the pause before Shelby said "the Melbourne" and Riker's following downcast gaze was because both of them knew that was supposed to be Riker's ship and there may be a good chance that if he'd accepted command, he'd be out there dead along with his ship. Revisionist history makes me ill.

--Jonah

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"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH

 

Because, ultimately, their intention was to create a good hour of TV, and not to please the three obsessive fanboys in the world who actually give a fuck about numbers on a model.

Television production is hectic. You spend your time on things that matter.

------------------
"...screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" - Omega.

Irony ensues.

Free Jeff K

 

Legato: "Hi Mike, we're gonna redo the Wolf 359 fight, you know, the Borg one - do you remember what ships you used back in 'BoBW'?"

Okuda: "Sure, here's the list of names. I'll dig up model details when I have time."

Legato goes to do his storyboards, and phones Okuda again.

Legato: "This is gonna be big. Here we cut up this USS Melbourne in a close-up, so that people finally see what happened to the ship Riker turned down."

Okuda: "Cool. Here are the models, stored ever since TNG."

Legato: "What? The Melbourne is a dinky kitbash? We can't film THAT!"

Okuda: "Okay, no prob, use one of the bigger models for that Melbourne close-up - it's easy enough to change the name of this little Nebula class thing to, uh, USS Bellerephon, and the rego can be changed easily, too. I'll just swap the last digit or something. Yeah, she's gonna be NCC-62408 now. I like to keep these things nice and orderly, you know."

So Legato goes to film a scene where a Melbourne of Excelsior class is cut up, but his notes now also read "USS Bellerophon, Nebula class, NCC-62048 - present in battle", and the photographer goes "Nebula class, what was that... Oh, yeah, THIS box! Hmm, it's big all right. Currently named the Sutherland. Greg! Paint this over and rig it up for shots, willya?"

Another version:

Legato: "Mike, I need a list of ships present at Wolf 359. Joe, round up the models used in 'BoBW'. Hmm, Melbourne... I'll use that one in a close-up."

Legato: "Thanks, Joe. Oops, the Melbourne model isn't good enough for us - I say we use this big Excelsior model in the close-up instead. Dig that model up, Bob."

And the team goes to film the part of the storyboard that still says "USS Melbourne (NCC-62403) gets cut up in a close-up", and starts by asking the modelmaker to repaint the name of the Excelsior ship... Even though Legato no longer really wanted the close-up ship to be the Melbourne, he forgot to say he DIDN'T want it to be.

There are plenty of other likely scenarios that would similarly involve Paramount employees who are also Trek fans and somewhat obsessive about details, yet still manage to get it all wrong. And then there are the even more likely scenarios where not everybody involved is a fanatical Trekkie...

Timo Saloniemi
 

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Star Trek: Legacy

First, the Hood is identified by name in both "Encounter at Farpoint" and "Tin-Man" and seen both times to be an Excelsior.

In DS9, the Lakota is clearly also an Excelsior.

How many Excelsiors does Starfleet have, anyway?

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.27 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with four eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Forum Member Who Shall Be Nameless. 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001

Shouldn't this thread be locked and succeded? "The next, next round"?

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram
 

To be fair, there were a couple of times where the Enterprise was seen flying along with an Ambassador. One of the Barclay episodes, I think.

Although TNG does seem to show that Starfleet as about 5 billion Excelsiors.

There's no good reason to say that Starfleet didn't have a couple of Excelsiors by STIV? Or that Starfleet was leaning towards Excelsior's at the time? Buh? STIV was about 3 months after STIII. In STIII, the Excelsior was quite clearly a prototype. Not just a new-class, like the Galaxy was, but a "great experiment". I'd say that Starfleet would have waited to see if it was successful before building any others.

And to whoever said that Future Imperfect "WAS season 3, thank you!". It's season 4.

------------------
"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles
 

Do we have any experienced 3d modelers in the group? Most of the vessel types involved in the Battle of Wolf 359 appear to be established types - with a few "kitbashes" included in the mix. So...

After downloading the official ones, and 3d cut-&-pasting a few more (which would allow a role for the nit-pickers who know what model pieces were utilized), it would it be possible to reconstruct the junkyard, using as many different parallax-views as possible. By rotating the POV, the 3d modeller could make sure that the layout does not conflict with the known screenshots. Then, by placing/rotating the 3d models, we could slowly eliminate the unknowns - or at least identify same AS unknowns.

This project (once cleaned-up and rendered) would probably be of value to Mr. Okuda (who might use it in his book) - and it would be a fan-generated piece of research which could serve as a pay-back for his many contributions and patience. For an insight into the rabid fanaticism of techo-fans, he could include the text of this 9 page discussion.

It would also allow fans to see the junkyard from several POV's - the only way to actually visualize a 3d space properly (although I would certainly love to have the finished 3d file for viewing).

Given proper assistance (X/Y/Z coordinates, Pitch/Rool/Yaw values, scale, etc), this could be done fairly easily.

And an animated rotating movie file of same would be so fine!

I'd love to help out.
 

If only you knew how much I hate hate hate hate HATE being wrong... Yes, "Future Imperfect" is season 4. For whatever reason, I had remembered it as being a couple episodes after "The Survivors". Still, that Nebula-Melbourne is seen even more clearly than the wreck in "BoBW".

But yes, we have more canon and semi-canon Excelsiors than any other ship class. I can put up a list of what we have so far -- including the problematic ones.

As for the timing. The Hathaway was launched in 2285, with a registry of NCC-2593. Even allowing for lengthier construction time, the Repulse (NCC-2544) and Roosevelt (NCC-2573) should be complete or nearly so by the time of the events of Star Trek IV. I also believe that an Excelsior-class Yorktown was being prepared for the crew of the old Constitution-class Yorktown that was shortly to be renamed Enterprise -- and that this is the Yorktown Tuvok refers to his parents serving on at the time of the events in ST VI.

--Jonah

------------------
"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH

 

possible Excelsiors
U.S.S. Roosevelt NCC-2573
U.S.S. Okinawa 13958
U.S.S. Lexington NCC-14427
U.S.S. Tecumseh NCC-14934
U.S.S. Livingston NCC-34099
U.S.S. Intrepid NCC-38907
U.S.S. Crockett NCC-38955
U.S.S. Grissom NCC-42857
U.S.S. Al-Batani NCC-42995
U.S.S. Farragut

bold = no onscreen-evidence AFAIK

BTW: I've read the theory that the Flashback-Yorktown is an Excelsior-class vessel on other websites too. Is this just an assumption or was there anything in the script, etc.?

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"Second star to the right, and then straight on till morning."

[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited February 15, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited February 15, 2001).]
 

But why did you bold some of those names and registries?

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"No, 3 & 6 are mandatory, so you only have to do them if you want"

Alex, fellow classmate, trying to explain an assignment (2/2/01)
 

JDW
 

That 3D debris field would be a nice thing, except that of course the various shots of it in "BoBW2" do not quite match each other. Or then the supposedly dead ships moved around a lot between shots. Still, certainly a worthwhile project. Any takers?

The Yorktown is such a venerable name that it would make sense to give it to a relatively prominent vessel. If not an Excelsior, then possibly a Constellation.

By "Frame of Mind", it seems there's a new Yorktown in service (or at least Riker fantasized that name out of *somewhere*). But her high registry leaves plenty of room for a Constellation Yorktown, an Excelsior Yorktown and finally an Ambassador Yorktown in between...

Did we really see a Galaxy saucer in "BoBW"? There was a Nebula wreck, but with the other components attached. And in "Emissary", we saw two Nebulas - one intact ship, as you say, and one wreck recycled from "BoBW2". Neither of those could be mistaken for a Galaxy, though.

And there was a separate saucer in "BoBW2", but not of Galaxy type as far as we could tell. Apparently it was a Constitution saucer thrashed for ST3 originally.

Timo Saloniemi
 

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram
 

1) I do tend to work on more than one project at a time (It hurts! It hurts!)

2) Although I do possess a 3d program, I was hoping to entire someone with greater skills (Black Knight?) to assist/take over the helm on this one. Also, we would need listings from everybody else, as well as sketches showing the battle scene from 3 axis (Show POV, X-axis, Z-axis). The idea was for a collaborative effort - not a one man show.

Sirius-ly (sic)

The boldfaced stuff in Fitz' rundown were things we didn't actually see onscreen, information that was supplied by Encyclopediae and the like. I've also seen a different registry for the Potemkin -- NCC-8253. Actually, my list reads:

Excelsior NCC-2000
Repulse NCC-2544
Roosevelt NCC-2573
Enterprise NCC-1701-B
[Potemkin NCC-8253]
Okinawa NCC-13958
Berlin NCC-14232
Lexington NCC-14427
Fearless NCC-14598
Tecumseh NCC-14934
[Potemkin NCC-18253]
Livingston NCC-34099
Intrepid NCC-38907
Crockett NCC-38955
Malinche NCC-38997
Gorkon NCC-40512
Frederickson NCC-42111
Cairo NCC-42136
Kongo NCC-42173
Charleston NCC-42285
Hood NCC-42296
Lakota NCC-42768
Grissom NCC-42857
Al-Batani NCC-42995
Valley Forge NCC-43305

Plus the problematic Crazy Horse and Melbourne -- which I disbelieve. :-)

As for the Yorktown, Gene and Paramount stand by the E-A being the Constitution-class Yorktown renamed, but four years later Tuvok's parents were serving on a ship named Yorktown. I don't think it would be anything less than a Constellation or an Excelsior, and I find the Excelsior a more likely candidate for the Yorktown name.

--Jonah

------------------
"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH

 

------------------
"No, 3 & 6 are mandatory, so you only have to do them if you want"

Alex, fellow classmate, trying to explain an assignment (2/2/01)
 

------------------
Star Trek: Legacy

So assuming that th Yorktown was a Constitution (refit) and then renamed Enterprise because another Yorktown was being built, then it makes sense.
------------------
Predict the unpredictable, but how do you unpredict the unpredictable?

[This message has been edited by Matrix (edited February 16, 2001).]
 

I would like to know the source of the information for the USS Shepard as an Oberth Class Scout and the USS Kongo NCC-42173.

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takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory
 

I always liked the idea that the Ent-B was only the second Excelsior-class one. After the Excelsior, they did a "variation", and waited to see which was the most successful, efficient, whatever. Then they deceided to build the rest of them.

Of course, the Lakota buggers that up.

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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles
 

Hmmm. Does anyone think Starfleet still produces new Excelsior-Class vessels anymore?

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.27 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with four eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Forum Member Who Shall Be Nameless. 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001

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Faster than light - no left or right.
 

There are parallels in wet-navies. After a class of ship has been in production/service for a period of time, an engineering team will make modifications (as recommended by the vessel's shakedown crew, manufacturer, etc.) to one of them during a scheduled refit/drydock. If the modifications are seen to be advantageous during subsequent trials, others in this class will be so modified - but the class will maintain its original class name. However, if the modifications are drastic enough, the first modified vessel will be named as the lead vessel of a new class, and any vessels so-modified thereafter will be transferred to that new class name.
_____________________________________________________

"...Does anyone think Starfleet still produces new Excelsior-Class vessels anymore?"

Unlikely. The CAPABILITIES of that class have been paralleled or exceeded by several new classes - Intrepid for one. In wet-navies, once another class can do the same job (capability), the original class is phased out/retired as they age.

This is why classes of vessels are grouped according to type (eg: the original Enterprise was a member of the Constitution-class, of the Heavy Cruiser type. After you have enough classes within a type, you only spend your construction time on the more capable ones. Of course, given the losses Starfleet saw in the Dominion War, I think a lot of the surviving Excelsior-class vessels have been pretty-thoroughly refitted. In wartime, it is a lot cheaper and faster to refit an older vessel to current weapons standards than to construct an entirely new vessel.

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Faster than light - no left or right.
 

Besides the actual Excelsior and the Ent-B, have we seen any other Excelsior bridges?

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Star Trek: Legacy

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"Second star to the right, and then straight on till morning."

[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited February 19, 2001).]
 

We've seen two Excelsior bridges in the flicks alone ... the original bridge from ST-III and the MUCH better bridge in VI.

If Hanson WAS aboard an Excelsior-Class starship during BoBW, then that's another to tack up there.

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.27 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with four eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
****
"The candidate who slimed John McCain in the primaries and smeared Al Gore in the general election is now the president who pledges to elevate the nation's tone and bring civility to our discorse. Kind of like Michael Corleone brought peace to the mob by killing the heads of the other four families."
--Paul Begala, Is Our Children Learning?

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Disclaimer:
"All references to vices and of the supernatural contained in this game are for entertainment purposes only. _Over_The_Edge_ does not promote satanisim, belief in magic, drug use, violence, sexual deviation, body piercing, cynical attitudes toward the government, freedom of expression, or any other action or belief not condoned by the authorities."
- `OverTheEdge'
 

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.27 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with four eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
****
"The candidate who slimed John McCain in the primaries and smeared Al Gore in the general election is now the president who pledges to elevate the nation's tone and bring civility to our discorse. Kind of like Michael Corleone brought peace to the mob by killing the heads of the other four families."
--Paul Begala, Is Our Children Learning?

Andrew

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"This is cooling, faster than I can..." Tori Amos "Cooling"
 

There was a question by the Wolf 359 group as to whether those drawings were derived from my sketches. They were not, and they may represent a more accurate view than my own.

Ben

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Bureaucracy destroys initiative. There is little that bureaucrats hate more than innovation, especially innovation that produces better results than the old routines. Improvements always make those at the top of the heap look inept. Who enjoys appearing inept?
-A Guide to Trial and Error in Government, Bene Gesserit Archives.
 

Mark

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Star Trek: Legacy

I figure, after being around for the instigation of this thread, I might as well start contributing.

Do you know the sketches I'm referring to? I could post them with upload system here if you want.

Ben

------------------
Bureaucracy destroys initiative. There is little that bureaucrats hate more than innovation, especially innovation that produces better results than the old routines. Improvements always make those at the top of the heap look inept. Who enjoys appearing inept?
-A Guide to Trial and Error in Government, Bene Gesserit Archives.
 

------------------
Lisa: "Don't you remember the story of Oedipus?"
Homer: "Maybe five dollars will refresh my memory."
Lisa (angrily): "Oedipus was the story of a man who kills his father and marries his mother!"
Homer: "Uggh! Who pays for that wedding?"

Shabren's Final Prophecy: Star Trek: Legacy

Ben

------------------
Bureaucracy destroys initiative. There is little that bureaucrats hate more than innovation, especially innovation that produces better results than the old routines. Improvements always make those at the top of the heap look inept. Who enjoys appearing inept?
-A Guide to Trial and Error in Government, Bene Gesserit Archives.
 

Here is the latest update of Wolf 359 with the secret pic by the certain guy in the Art Department: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/wolf359.htm

I think the Springfield has a pod that is separate from the secondary hull.

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"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
Ex Astris Scientia

 

"...and there was much rejoicing." "Yaaayyy...!"

You're probably right about the Springfield pod--at least, I hope you are. That would be a "podalicious" design. But...knowing how they are, I doubt it's podded at all.

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"Gee, the public whipping didn't quite convey their fascist culture, I need something more straightforward. Ah, leather hats!" --Nimrod, on National Socialism fashion design.
 

------------------
"No, 3 & 6 are mandatory, so you only have to do them if you want"

Alex, fellow classmate, trying to explain an assignment (2/2/01)

[Edit: This is of course, if I am indeed King of the Turnips, and incorrectly deduced that a pod structure, if one exists, would be located on the dorsal of the ship. Please continue on.]

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"I WANT A POST VOY SERIES STAR TREK ORIGINAL MESSAGE WAS LOOKING FORWARD NOT LOOKING BACK."

-Darkstar

[This message has been edited by Ultra Magnus (edited March 07, 2001).]
 

------------------
Lisa: "Don't you remember the story of Oedipus?"
Homer: "Maybe five dollars will refresh my memory."
Lisa (angrily): "Oedipus was the story of a man who kills his father and marries his mother!"
Homer: "Uggh! Who pays for that wedding?"

Shabren's Final Prophecy: Star Trek: Legacy

------------------
"Am I not destroying my enemies when I make them my friends?" - Abraham Lincoln

"America is a large, friendly dog in a very small room. Every time it wags its tail it knocks over a chair." - Arnold Toynbee

"Fighting for peace is like f***ing for virginity." - Anonymous

"Our bombs are smarter than [George W. Bush]. At least they can find Kuwait." - A. Whitney Brown

 

------------------
"No, 3 & 6 are mandatory, so you only have to do them if you want"

Alex, fellow classmate, trying to explain an assignment (2/2/01)

Ben

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Ripley: When we throw the switches, how long before the ship blows?
Parker: Ten minutes.
Ripley: No bullshit?
Parker: If we ain't outta here in ten minutes, we won't need no rocket to fly through space.

Alien (1979)
 

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It doesn't matter if you don't know what you're doing as long as you look good doing it.
 

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"Gee, the public whipping didn't quite convey their fascist culture, I need something more straightforward. Ah, leather hats!" --Nimrod, on National Socialism fashion design.
 

359: it *could* be that what is to the lower left of the crossing point of the two lines is not part of the pod, but instead part of the pylon. The color of this little triangle at least appears to be the darker blue of the pylon, not the lighter one of the pod. The "pod" would then still rest flush with the secondary hull, but would not really extend below it.

However, if the pylon in fact is a Galaxy class pylon mounted to a Galaxy class secondary hull, as seems likely, then this little "trailing edge extension" in the horizontal part of the pylon would have to be a customized addition... I'm not sure if Miarecki would have had a reason to make one. The color issue could be just due to lighting and shadows. And I do think the "pod" extends below the pylon level.

If we get to see a better side view of the Challenger, it might indeed turn out that the Challenger aft hull is the same piece as this Springfield dorsal "pod". It would make good sense for some sort of a pre-existing part to be used in both applications.

Timo Saloniemi

 

I should draw a new schematic, but I'm too busy with other things.

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"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
Ex Astris Scientia

 

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"Yar, a lesbian? That girl had a sex drive! First, Data in Naked Now, then, in
Hide and Q, she hits on Picard! "Oh, if only you weren't the captain..." God! If
Denise Crosby hadn't left the series, she'd've slept with the entire senior staff by
now!" Jeff Kardde - March 7, 2001
 

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"...I know this board in secret, intimate ways which are beyond your comprehension.... Let's just say that people should *not* be telling me what to do; it should always be the other way around."
-"Red Quacker", conspiracy theorist and contemporary lunatic
 

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"Yar, a lesbian? That girl had a sex drive! First, Data in Naked Now, then, in
Hide and Q, she hits on Picard! "Oh, if only you weren't the captain..." God! If
Denise Crosby hadn't left the series, she'd've slept with the entire senior staff by
now!" Jeff Kardde - March 7, 2001
 

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Predict the unpredictable, but how do you unpredict the unpredictable?

http://www.fleetyard.com/construction/spring/chekov-paul.jpg

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It doesn't matter if you don't know what you're doing as long as you look good doing it.
 

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"Lately I've noticed that everyone seems to trust me. It's really quite unnerving. I'm still trying to get used to it."
- Garak, "Empok Nor"

 

That definatly does not look like tape, and is meant to be a pod. That sort of throws everything out of whack. The wedge on top is definatly attached, you can tell that, and there is also some structure below the saucer (not the pod) that you can see. Those pylons for the pod are weird too. I liked the ship before we found this lower pod.

BTW, it would have been even better if I had gotten Post #359...

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"No, 3 & 6 are mandatory, so you only have to do them if you want"

Alex, fellow classmate, trying to explain an assignment (2/2/01)

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"Let's make sure history never forgets the name... Enterprise"
- Alternate Picard, "Yesterday's Enterprise"

[This message has been edited by Fabrux (edited March 11, 2001).]
 

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"...I know this board in secret, intimate ways which are beyond your comprehension.... Let's just say that people should *not* be telling me what to do; it should always be the other way around."
-"Red Quacker", conspiracy theorist and contemporary lunatic
 

------------------
"Let's make sure history never forgets the name... Enterprise"
- Alternate Picard, "Yesterday's Enterprise"

 

P.S. I was just lucky with post #359.

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It doesn't matter if you don't know what you're doing as long as you look good doing it.
 

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Don't kill me, I'm charming!

 

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"...I know this board in secret, intimate ways which are beyond your comprehension.... Let's just say that people should *not* be telling me what to do; it should always be the other way around."
-"Red Quacker", conspiracy theorist and contemporary lunatic
 

I too think its a stand... but it has that deflector dish look at the front of that 'pod'

If Walter Koening has the model... why doesn't someone ask him for a few snap shots...

------------------
"Yar, a lesbian? That girl had a sex drive! First, Data in Naked Now, then, in
Hide and Q, she hits on Picard! "Oh, if only you weren't the captain..." God! If
Denise Crosby hadn't left the series, she'd've slept with the entire senior staff by
now!" Jeff Kardde - March 7, 2001
 

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I will shout until they know what I mean.
--
Neutral Milk Hotel
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Then, go insane!

Okuda in turn hasn't commented on this new picture yet, but given time, he might remember something new.

The screengrabs from "BoBW" would seem to show a Chekov complete with the dorsal angular pod, in the top middle of the viewscreen scene (right above the burning Nebula). The saucer seems to be darkened or cut in half so that the starboard side is not visible - if the saucer was cut, then the photo proves the ventral pod was also missing, but if it's just darkened, then the ventral pod could be hidden behind the saucer rim. In either case, it seems that the photo showing the Chekov and the Ahwahnee is a "before" photo, after which some damage was inflicted on the Chekov model for actual episode filming.

Timo Saloniemi
 

Miarecki confirmed that he added the strange looking ventral pod to the Springfield, although I still don't think it is visible in the Cheyenne-Springfield image.

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"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
Ex Astris Scientia

 

Not that I'm complaining!

------------------
I will shout until they know what I mean.
--
Neutral Milk Hotel
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Then, go insane!

------------------
"...I know this board in secret, intimate ways which are beyond your comprehension.... Let's just say that people should *not* be telling me what to do; it should always be the other way around."
-"Red Quacker", conspiracy theorist and contemporary lunatic

[This message has been edited by TSN (edited March 12, 2001).]
 

And the Springfield AND the Challenger? God, I always thought they were just someone's BS excuse for some of the ships, but they're actual models!

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At that point, McDonald fired his gun three times in the air to emphasize his point. The crowd, estimated at 350,000, loudly cheered the new candidate.

"Let me make this clear: I am the law! I am your ruler! And you will have fries with that, motherf*cker!"

I jus' luuuuv that message!
And I also hate pagefolds... Well, who doesn't?

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Don't kill me, I'm charming!

 

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Don't kill me, I'm charming!

 

Personally, I'm happy with the current arrangement. What better pastime than memorizing what is already in the Gallery and then scrolling through all the great pagefuls of cool pictures to spot the additions? In fact, Bernd could remove the "updated" banners from the sub-categories to make this even more challenging...

Anything new on the higher-quality original of the Challenger photo?

Timo Saloniemi
 

(well, they where mentioned awhile ago, but I don�t remember what was said, so I thought I might ask again)

What are these ships? The first one doesn�t even look starfleetish...

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"The Starships of the Federation are the physical, tangible manifestations of Humanity�s stubborn insistence that life does indeed mean something."
Spock to Leonard McCoy in "Final Frontier"

It seems likely that some models were filmed multiple times for the episode. These badly damaged ships could be reused shots with added flame effects, or then custom shots from already-used models, with either just the added flame effects or then with extra physical damage incurred on the models themselves.

We know that one of the ships definitely survived the battle more intact than those pics - the Chekov could not have been on its way to Koenig's bookshelf if it was in that condition! We can also be sure that no Ambassador or later scale models were harmed in the production of the episode, since they did not exist at the time, and the full-scale photographic Ambassador, Galaxy, Miranda and Excelsior or old Oberth models definitely weren't harmed for this. Everything else is free game, though.

Okay, some speculation on the pics:

The first ship seems to be viewed from aft - the bright linear structure atop must be a nacelle, and so far there have been no ships where the nacelles ride in front of the hull. The pylon mount seems to be in mid-pylon, and triangular or at least angled. The nacelle seems to be above the saucer (if that's what is on the right), while another nacelle is burning on the foreground. A very wide secondary hull is visible below the nacelle - or then there are extra nacelles down there.

My first guess would be a flipped Niagara with flame effects (the starboard nacelle is the one that is seen to upper port here). The saucer seems to have a terraced superstructure that might fit the Niagara saucertop. It's not a very good fit, though - the ventral nacelle should protrude aft and be visible here.

My second guess is that this is a proto-Nebula (either the destroyed one or the intact one with flame effects), and the "wide secondary hull" looks so wide because we are seeing extra nacelles. The ship might be upside down so that the bright nacelle is the starboard lower one - the glowing thing immediately below it would be the secondary hull - and the dark "pylon" shadow is just cast across the secondary hull even though the pylon itself goes behind this hull. However, the nacelle looks way too long (especially if it is the damaged nacelle of the destroyed model) and the secondary hull too short. And the saucer detail would not match.

This doesn't seem like any of the known other ships, though. If the thing to the right really is a saucer, and the long linear thing a nacelle, then a relatively short and broad configuration is suggested, with an extra-wide secondary hull. Most of the Excelsior variants have very narrow aft hulls, and most of the other ships have radically different configurations.

The second ship no longer exists. May she rest in that heap of pieces.

Timo Saloniemi
 

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"The Starships of the Federation are the physical, tangible manifestations of Humanity�s stubborn insistence that life does indeed mean something."
Spock to Leonard McCoy in "Final Frontier"

There aren't clear indications of the dorsal torpedo pods here, but there mightn't necessarily be even if the pods were there. And perhaps the pods of the NO model weren't used in every shot?

Also within possibility is that this is the Excelsior study model with Oberthlike nacelles but otherwise almost-final hull shape. The top linear glare would then consist partially of the rather short nacelle, partially of saucer rim glare. That doesn't seem as attractive as the New Orleans interpretation, though. There aren't that many frames of this ship to go by, so it's difficult to say for sure whether the light reflections depict true hull contours or coincidentally and confusingly blend together.

Timo Saloniemi
 

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"Oh for fuck's sake, stop your moaning,
If you fancy a threesome at this time of night, you can't get start getting choosey about which particular three!
-Queer As Folk, UK
 

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"The Starships of the Federation are the physical, tangible manifestations of Humanity�s stubborn insistence that life does indeed mean something."
Spock to Leonard McCoy in "Final Frontier"

Thanks,

Andrew

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"Yar, a lesbian? That girl had a sex drive! First, Data in Naked Now, then, in
Hide and Q, she hits on Picard! "Oh, if only you weren't the captain..." God! If
Denise Crosby hadn't left the series, she'd've slept with the entire senior staff by
now!" Jeff Kardde - March 7, 2001
 

quote:

---

Just out of curiosity, where the heck has that image been hiding all these years? I mean, we spend 11 pages talking about this and then, oh, by the way, we've got a pretty good shot of one of the models that no one has seen before, if you're interested.

---

I think that it was simply a lack of people with a large enough interest in the topic, and very little good information & pics to go on. It wasn't until the research started, first with us five guys, then everyone here, and finally outside info from people like Okuda, Miarecki, Masaki Taniko, and Gary Perry, that good reliable info started coming in.

Also, for the longest time, the former descriptions and fallacies were pretty much taken as undisputed fact: a)The fandom descriptions of the Rigel, Freedom, and Challenger class models, b)The acceptance that either no models were built for the Niagara and Springfield classes (or even the Challenger), or that they were represented by the Excelsior study models, and c)That Rick Sternbach built all the models himself, by shoddily "kit-bashing" parts from Galaxy and Constitution class model parts. The fact that he really didn't build any of them, or just modified a few, attested to the fact that he never had any information regarding the models when asked at conventions, newsgroups, etc.

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Lisa: "Don't you remember the story of Oedipus?"
Homer: "Maybe five dollars will refresh my memory."
Lisa (angrily): "Oedipus was the story of a man who kills his father and marries his mother!"
Homer: "Uggh! Who pays for that wedding?"

Shabren's Final Prophecy: Star Trek: Legacy

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"Instructed by history and reflection, Julian was persuaded that, if the diseases of the body may sometimes be cured by salutary violence, neither steel nor fire can eradicate the erroneous opinions of the mind."

-Edward Gibbons, The Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire.

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"...I know this board in secret, intimate ways which are beyond your comprehension.... Let's just say that people should *not* be telling me what to do; it should always be the other way around."
-"Red Quacker", conspiracy theorist and contemporary lunatic
 

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Signature for sale! For a mere price of $20 per letter you get this wonderful little space to say your own things. Get it now while there's still space!

-All you base belong to infinity. -infinity11

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Lisa: "Don't you remember the story of Oedipus?"
Homer: "Maybe five dollars will refresh my memory."
Lisa (angrily): "Oedipus was the story of a man who kills his father and marries his mother!"
Homer: "Uggh! Who pays for that wedding?"

Shabren's Final Prophecy: Star Trek: Legacy