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Posted by Grapeape on :

Hi all, just curious if anyone knows anything about the Apollo class. Since it's mentioned in the Encyclopedia that one ship was lost at Wolf 359 (USS Gage, NCC-11672) some kind of model MUST have existed in one form or another. Based on it's registry, it definately has no Galaxy-era components, so it probably wasn't built by the BoBW2 modelmakers. The only possibilities in BoBW2 would be one of the old Excelsior study models seen far in the background (but it has been mentioned that these weren't named) OR the wrecked Constitution-type saucer seen up-close at the very beginning of the scene that is drifting to the left. Or, if it didn't appear until the first ep of DS9, then it is probably the Excelsior-variant (?) that is in the upper right of the screen when the Saratoga explodes. To me, either an Excelsior or Constitution variant would support the 11672 registry, but I'm no expert

- anybody have any ideas?

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Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Well, if we believe the Encyclopedia, the Apollo is like those Vulcan ships from "Unification" (TNG).

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Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

The Gage was mentioned after DS9: "Emissary". I have thought for some time it might be the floating saucer seen just when the Saratoga explodes (See Wolf 359 thread, entry 141). This is the only unnamed ship in the episode. However, when the Ency II came out, suddenly the T'Pau was an Apollo-class ship, but this was obviously an error. Maybe there is no Apollo design at all.

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Hasn't the T'Pau been an Apollo all along? I believe the debate is over whether or not the T'Pau was among the ships seen at the end of "Unification II".

As for the Gage... There wasn't necessarily a model. The registry may have been on an Okudagram somewhere. I don't think they would have invented a regsitry for the encyclopedia, but, then, this isn't a certainty.

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Posted by Brown_supahero (Member # 83) on :

Damn all who believe that all fed. ships are designed in house. why can't they register a vulcan design

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Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Why can't the T'Pau be an Apollo?

Also, regarding the saucer.

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Does the O-gram in "Unification I" explicitly say that the T'Pau is an Apollo?

And was the mystery saucer in the actual explosion scene? Because that's what that paragraph seems to refer to, exclusively, since it doesn't mention the Yamaguchi, Bonestell, etc.

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Jay Leno: "In the story of 'Jack and the Beanstalk', what did the goose lay?"
"Bosco": "Everybody."
-The Tonight Show, "Jaywalking"

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

The scene being referring to in the paragraph is the scene with the Saratoga exploding, which is also the scene with the saucer.

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Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

There is no evidence that the T'Pau is an Apollo, except for an entry in the Ency II that was not in the Ency I and could easily be erroneous.

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"A few more calculations"

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Well, anything in the Encyclopedia could be erroneous, but we shouldn't assume everything is.

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Perhaps we should recap the arguments on the T'Pau/Apollo issue?

T'Pau is not an Apollo:

-The Romulans wanted to steal T'Pau's components to create an ersatz Vulcan ship. A ship of a generic starship class in Starfleet service (with names like Agamemnon and Ajax) would not be sufficiently identifiable as Vulcan.
-Apollos have been drafted to fight the Borg, in "Descent". A Vulcan freighter simply would not cut it.
-Encyclopedia makes mistakes, yadda yadda.

T'Pau may be an Apollo despite the above:

-Perhaps T'Pau was a special Apollo, the only one with a Vulcan-built navigational deflector or other such identifiably Vulcan components?
-Perhaps the Romulans had some other motivation in stealing the ship bit by bit. They may simply have been hunting for old Vulcan codes and passwords still stored in the computers of that ship, and didn't know exactly where to look.
-All of Encyclopedia shouldn't be damned for the known mistakes, yadda yadda.

T'Pau must be, if not an Apollo, then at least of the same class as the Vulcan freighters we saw:

-There is a ship looking like one of those Vulcan freighters at Qualor II. Even though we know the T'Pau was NOT at Qualor any more, the presence of one such ship makes likely the presence of several.
-Would the parts stolen from the T'Pau fit any other ship class?

In any case, the episodes do not unambiguously support the Encyclopedia theory that one of the ships at the end was the T'Pau. It's one of the many possibilities. And all references to an Apollo class are noncanon so far.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

I really don't see anything that excludes the T'Pau from being an Apollo...the Vulcan ships could have been broadcasting identification, there was even an Oberth at Wolf 359, etc.

Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :

Um, I thought the general concensus was that the Oberth class starship was trying to run away from the battle. Or did I imagine that?

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

It's been suggested, but only on the basis that an Oberth couldn't do much to a Borg cube. The fact remains that there was an Oberth at W359. A Vulcan transport could easily have been there under similar circumstances.

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Jay Leno: "In the story of 'Jack and the Beanstalk', what did the goose lay?"
"Bosco": "Everybody."
-The Tonight Show, "Jaywalking"

Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :

And I think the Bonestall was there because Starfleet needed a fleet there and all they could muster up were those 40 ships with the Bonestall included. It may not do much damage, but it's better to have it there and do a little damage than not be there to do it's share of damage. See what I mean?

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

In case of the Bonestell, she either was there to fire her puny weapons (does an Oberth have any weapons at all?), or to provide torpedo reloads for the rest of the ships (Oberths are known as supply ships, after all), or to operate some sort of experimental jamming gear or other special weapon being tested aboard the ship (like the Pegasus tested the phase-cloak).

Similar logic could apply to the Apollo class Gage in that battle if need be.

But in case of the Agamemnon, the Apollo class ship in "Descent", I seriously doubt any of the above would apply. There was plenty of time in that episode to summon non-puny ships. Also, it seems unlikely that a supply ship would be one of the only three ships comprising Tast Force Three in that episode, if the other two were an Excelsior and a Galaxy - logically, any supply ships would come in addition to the mere three fighting vessels, and the ships explicitly mentioned would be the significant combat platforms in the Task Force. And special weapons apparently weren't an issue in "Descent", since there was absolutely no dialogue on them, no preparations aboard the E-D.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I think it's also possible that the Bonestell just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Studying Wolf 359 itself or something, when the call came up for any available ship.

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Posted by Akula (Member # 319) on :

They guys who said that the apollo was a transport. Looking at the Fact Files schematic it appears to have 3 forward torpedo tubes and at least 3 forward phaser arrays. I think this ship was design at the vulcan ship yards as a light cruiser or destroyer.

Posted by Starship Freak (Member # 293) on :

Which fact files issue is that? Do you have the pics of it?

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

As for why it would be a freighter...

In DS9 "For the Cause", we see a Vulcan freighter operated by the Maquis. It is very similar to the ships seen in "Unification", with just some extra structures added to the stern (the model served as the Tosk ship in between, in "Captive Pursuit", and these modifications seem to date from back then).

Of course, a light cruiser could look similar to a freighter. I just don't think that is a very good idea. Ships ought to have distinct appearances related to their mission. Unfortunately, that isn't always true of Trek.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Akula (Member # 319) on :

For a picture go to http://www.shipschematics.net/startrek/federation.html and shearch for apollo.

Posted by Delta Vega (Member # 283) on :

I think the Bonestell was at the battle as an observer, recording battle data for further review since the Feds didn't know much about them besides the Raven expedition.

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