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Posted by Starship Freak (Member # 293) on :

Only one pic, as far as I know, exists of this starship, http://w1.314.telia.com/~u31412332/scifi/ssent.jpg
and no reliable info as to what part it played in the ST universe. However, I recently found a reference to this book: "Star Trek Space Flight Chronology" by Stan & Fred Goldstein, Pocket Books, New York, NY 1980.
Is this considered canon enough?
In this book there are facts about this ship, it�s listed as a Declaration- class. It was the first stellar spaceliner, a civilian ship.
Any thoughts?

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"The Starships of the Federation are the physical, tangible manifestations of Humanity�s stubborn insistence that life does indeed mean something."
Spock to Leonard McCoy in "Final Frontier"

Posted by Montgomery (Member # 23) on :

Not a bad idea, and nicely slots into continuity.
The design is based on an initial concept for the Enterprise by Matt Jeffries back pre-TOS.

A recent issue of the Star Trek mag (which I was lucky enough to obtain through Borders) included several "new" (to me) sketches of this intriguing design.
They're pretty good, and could certainly inform someone enough to create a 3D mesh.

I'm afraid I forget the issue number (either 8 or 10 I THINK), but I'm sure some hi-tech American poster will be able to scan some and stick them up here for us. (Hint, Hint )

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"No way man!
I've served my time in hell, and I ain't going back...
Not without a fight!"

[This message has been edited by Montgomery (edited February 23, 2000).]

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

There's a slight problem with fitting the ship to the Trek universe - obviously, it's supposed to have centrifugal gravity. Nobody in the Trek universe uses centrifugal gravity. The magical "let's put some conduits under the deck plates" gravity has been invented even by the most primitive of the spacefaring races. If Earth's spaceflight had become advanced enough to allow for passenger liners, as the SFC suggests, surely Earthlings would also have magical gravity available to them.

Of course, it's a "canon" ship anyway, having been spotted in ST:TMP. Perhaps the rotating sections were built for the exotic value of their "primitiveness", like some of today's luxury cruisers have semi-fake sails or even semi-fake paddlewheels? Or perhaps they do not rotate after all (the mounting of the central spire seems odd if rotation is really implied)?

Or perhaps the ship designer just wanted everybody to be able to enjoy the view from the rotating restaurant deck?

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Starship Freak (Member # 293) on :

Well, I don�t think they are meant to rotate. I agree that the structure seems to contradict that. I also think it�s good to finally see a passenger-liner. I think that has been missing in the st universe. We hear of people taking vacations, but never see the ships which takes them there.
Anyone got a screencap from st:tmp where one can see this ship?
Does anyone have the book? Any pics of ships in that?

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

Well, they usually use shuttles for their vacations, and at Warp 2 they have enough time to enjoy it. ;-)

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"A few more calculations"

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

From 'Ships named Enterprise':

There was a picture of an earlier space ship named Enterprise in Star Trek: TMP. There was no information about this ship in the movie, but the Star Trek Space Flight Chronology lists what is apparently this same ship, as a Declaration class, 2123-2165 AD, While this ship's connection to "canon" is tenuous at best, the statistics are reproduced here:

Length - 300m
Diameter - 210m
Living section width - 28.7m
Mass - 52.7 million kg
Ship's Compliment:
- Crew and Service Personnel - 100
- Passenger Capacity - 850
- Total ship's compliment - 950

Performance:
Range - Standard = 350 light years Maximum= 1,200 light years
Cruising Speed - Warp 3.2 (32.8c)
Voyage duration - Standard 3 months Maximum 2.5 years

Systems:
Navigation - Celestial Warp Reader
Communication - Subspace Radio
Recreation - Null-grav gymnasium 5 dining rooms 3 theaters 3 nightclubs Forward and Rear stellar observatories
Life support: Gravity - .2 -1.2 g Atmosphere - 20% Oxygen, 11% humidity
Sustenance duration - Up to 40 years if outfitted for long-duration exploration

Engineering:
Advanced 2nd Generation Warp Drive
Fuel: 10:1 matter to antimatter [comments by Altair: WHAT?? no 1:1 ??]
Separated engine and living sections for improved efficiency

Improvements and innovations:
First class of ship equipped with sub-space radio
Most popular passenger carrier of its time

This original Enterprise was the first stellar spaceliner built specifically for the major Federation space lanes (such as Earth - Alpha Centauri). The travel demand that blossomed in the 22nd century resulted in 957 of these Declaration class ships being commissioned.

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"I'm captain Kenny Redshirt of the Miranda Class USS Killedalot, NCC-1313."
"I know it is an old ship, but..."
KABOOOOMM!!
"Oh my God! They killed Kenny! You bastards!"

(-=\V/=-)

[This message has been edited by Altair (edited February 23, 2000).]

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Personally, I like to think that this ship was Cochrane's second warpship, built w/ help from the Vulcans. The rings would be an annular warp engine, like on the Apollo class (or, for you who don't believe, "the ships at the end of 'Unification II'"). It was named "Enterprise" by Cochrane and Sloane for reasons no-one was ever able to determine (except the ones who watched First Contact). :-)

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Jay Leno: "In the story of 'Jack and the Beanstalk', what did the goose lay?"
"Bosco": "Everybody."
-The Tonight Show, "Jaywalking"

Posted by Baloo (Member # 5) on :

Paul Cargile, at his excellent Conceptual Designs website, has a section devoted to the S.S. Enterprise, and how it is unlikely that, at the stated length, it could possibly be a starliner. His arguments in favor of something (anything) else are persuasive.

--Baloo

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"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
-- William Pitt
Come Hither and Yawn...

Posted by Captain Stark (Member # 70) on :

The Space Flight Chronology (where we first see the SS Enterprise in book form) was produced by Rick Sternbach. I believe from this book he decided on several standards. It was the first book to list the upgraded USS Enterprise still as a Constitution Class (IMHO it should have been a new class based upon Decker's line that the new Enterprise wasn't even a 10th of the old Enterprise).

This dosen't make the book Cannon but it does show us from where Rick may have started from. Didn't he work on TMP and the Enterprise Flight Manual?

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-=/\=-
Captain Stark
http://beam.to/readyroom

"The man on the top walks a lonely path. The chain of command is often a noose." Dr. Leonard McCoy --Obsession, Stardate: 3619.2

Posted by Montgomery (Member # 23) on :

Wow, guess I have pics even the Americans don't have!

The original Jeffries sketches each show slight differences in the design of the forward "pod".
I don't think the pic in the enyclopaedia should be given too much weight. Recall the pic of the first warp ship in Okuda's original Chronology?

The round constructs do not look like they rotate to me. They may be some kind of dissipation units, or perhaps a huge solar panel, or even one big warp coil.

I'm afraid I still can't scan these pics myself, but they are much more enlightening than the tiny encyclopedia pic.

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"No way man!
I've served my time in hell, and I ain't going back...
Not without a fight!"

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Instead of just the rings, the entire ship could rotate. But then the cylindrar thingamabobs at the end of the boom would also wobble around the central axis, which would probably be a bad thing regardless of whether they are engine nozzles or shuttlebays...

As for that Okuda "early warp ship", it's a canon design (having been seen in "In the Hands of the Prophets" as a tabletop model), so we'd better try and explain it away. It's obvious the Phoenix can't land in one piece. Perhaps just the forward pod landed in "First Contact", while the rest of the ship stayed in orbit? Afterwards, Cochrane would have gotten fame and fortune, and would have built a bigger pod that was then launched to dock with the warp engine. An erosion shield would also be added to the design in lieu of navigational deflectors. And voila, we have the "early warp ship", with which Cochrane would conduct further experiments. The differences in the drive section are minor, and would be due to later experimentation and expansion.

And since the ship is "in the Smithsonian" in the TNG era, it was probably eventually brought down to Earth (instead of the museum being moved to orbit). Naturally, it would have been brought down in its later, big-pod, erosion-shield configuration. Perhaps it was conserved in that configuration, explaining why it is always portrayed like that in model form?

It could, of course, be just a later sister ship to the Phoenix. But somehow the above explanation sounds more elegant...

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Personally - here are my thoughts on this ship

After several nights - looking at Matt Jefferies designs in the Star Trek - Sketch Book - I do believe the circular sections rotate.

over at sci.space.tech - they mentioned that any ship to Mars with a rotating section would need a second rotating section moving in the opposite direction to balance the first ring/section

If you look at sketches of the DY-100 the aft 'engine' section looks SORTA like - the aft 'engines' on the SSE

Also - the weird 'head piece' of the SSE - looks remotely like the DY-100 and the Mariposa's front sections... (see Matt Jeffries' designs not the Encyc II picture, that was linked above - it takes some liberties - especially the front section) - the front section in the linked picture - found in the Encyc II - has been altered and looks like it has some sort of 'communications' or 'deflector' dishes at the very forward part.

OK - Chochrane didn't have gravity nets.

I don't believe that the SSE did either - the 'spoke' that connects the wheels, 1. Doesn't have to be from the relatively featureless designs we have - make it certain that the rings are firmly attached - maybe the top of the 'spoke' has a 'braket' that holds the two rings to the rest of the ship - but still allowing the rings - in the zero G environment - to rotate.

I believe that you would somehow hop down - proably on to increasingly slower minirings (that are in the body of the main ones to some how get to the zero G - ladder/lift/ of the 'spoke' which would take you down to the zero G 'tunnel' of the 'engine/head' section.

If it is a liner - it probably only ran with in the solar system at impulse or between nearby to Sol - stars - at low warp... - we don't necessarily have to see warp NACELLES - since the could be encorporated into the 'engine' section at the back.

Also - I think that there were several upgraded versions of Cochrane's warp ship - that preceeded his design - one of them being the Valiant... from WNMHGB/Encyc Chronology

I think that the liner was either a modification of older pre Phoenix ships, or a radical new design for larger numbers of 'passengers' or 'crew'.

The SS probably means that it predates the founding of the Federation.

I like to go by the MJ sketches rather than the 'altered' Encyc II pics.

Andrew

Also remember the Mars discussion we had a while back - Mars and even other solar systems could have had settlers even before WWIII.

They just had to get there without Warp.

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"What a wonderful and amazing scheme have we here of the magnificent vastness of the Universe! So many Suns, so many Earths...!" - Christian Huygens, New Conjectures Concerning the Planetary Worlds, Their Inhabitants and Productions (ca 1670)

[This message has been edited by AndrewR (edited February 24, 2000).]

Posted by Starship Freak (Member # 293) on :

Timo: Speaking of the okuda early-warpship, is it this ship you mean? http://w1.314.telia.com/~u31412332/scifi/earlywarpearth.jpg

If so, it has been seen in a ST:VOY episode as well: http://w1.314.telia.com/~u31412332/startrek/malonmodelship.jpg

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Uh... I guess that makes continuity maintenance a bit difficult in this specific case...

Let's try it anyway. Hmm. The Malon was some sort of a psychic and had seen a vivid dream of an Earth design? Keiko put the model in a trash bin which was then stolen by Maquis operatives in order to gain info on Starfleet activities, and the Maquis ship was captured by Caretaker while in badlands and then intercepted by the Malon? The model actually has miniature working warp engines and went out of control on her maiden flight, fell into a wormhole and was picked up by a Malon ship? Cochrane's original full-scale ship actually went across the galaxy in 47 seconds flat and visited the Malon homeworld, but Section 31 time-traveled to suppress the techology as "too advanced"?

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Starship Freak (Member # 293) on :

Timo: wouldn�t happen to know where to find screencaps from "in the hands of the prophets" would you? I mean, the model could be slightly "of", couldn�t it?

Could the malon have "stolen" the model from some starfleet officer? I mean what with the equinox running all around the deltaquadrant and all, it isn�t so farfetched.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Sorry, I don't know of any site that would have those screencaps, nor do I ave the equipment to do them myself. I don't even have the tape of "Prophets" at the moment. In fact, I could be hallucinating the entire presence of the model in that episode!

You will have to look elsewhere to expand your excellent collection...

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Can I just ask, in what context was the model used in that Malon episode?

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Jay Leno: "In the story of 'Jack and the Beanstalk', what did the goose lay?"
"Bosco": "Everybody."
-The Tonight Show, "Jaywalking"

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

One of the crew of a Malon freighter made a model for his son in his spare time.

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"I'm captain Kenny Redshirt of the Miranda Class USS Killedalot, NCC-1313."
"I know it is an old ship, but..."
KABOOOOMM!!
"Oh my God! They killed Kenny! You bastards!"

(-=\V/=-)

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

This is completely off-topic, but Altair:
Kenny's last name is McCormick!

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"Si vis pacem, para bellum." (If you want peace, prepare for war)
- Vegetius
Prakesh's Star Trek Site

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

I know that

It is just an alias.

A small explaination:
- Kenny (in Pouth Park) gets killed almost all the time.
- Redshirts (in Star Trek) are usualy the first to get killed.
- Miranda Class ships are, most probably, trashed the most out of all Federation ships.

I hope you can see where I'm going at...

Now back to the SS Enterprise thread:

Paul Cargile is trying to explain the length of the ship on his homepage. From what I can make out is that they create gravity by rotation. To me that means that the living space is in the circular part of the ship (think: Babylon 5), not in the forward pod.

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E-mail Dot at: [email protected]

(-=\V/=-)

Posted by Dane Simri (Member # 272) on :

*Crosses his arms and holds his breath*

I adamantly refuse to "think Babylon 5!"

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Dane

"Let mental culture go on advancing, let the natural sciences progress in even greater extent and depth, and the human mind widen itself as much as it desires: beyond the elevation and moral culture of Christianity, as it shines forth in the Gospels, it will not go."
Goethe

Posted by Montgomery (Member # 23) on :

Then damn you all the way ta hell!

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"No way man!
I've served my time in hell, and I ain't going back...
Not without a fight!"

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

smilie in SS Enterprise:

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"Si vis pacem, para bellum." (If you want peace, prepare for war)
- Vegetius
Prakesh's Star Trek Site

[This message has been edited by Prakesh (edited February 29, 2000).]