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Posted by nx001a (Member # 291) on :

In ST:II Spock says that the Reliant could outrun and outgun the Enterprise. After looking at the Constitution Class in general It seems that the tactical systems are a bit lacking compared to her modern counterparts. The enterprise does not seem to have many weapons on the sides or at the rear such as phasers on the engineering section or an aft torpedo launcher?

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Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :

The Enterprise had 18 phasers. 3 banks of two on the saucer dorsal surface and 3 banks of two on the saucer ventral surface. Plus two individual mounts at the very aft-dorsal of the secondary hull, and four indvidual banks forward-ventral on the secondary hull (two which could fire port and two which could fire forward). This gives very good all round phaser coverage. (a few small blind spots in the aft-dorsal port and starboard regions caused by the nacelles.)
Torps are limited to the two forward firing tubes, but as ST VI demonstrated a torp can manoeuvre after launch.

To see a Constitution refit witha ft torp tubes look at the USS America in Ships of th Starfleet, Volume 1.

The Reliant had 12 or 14 'normal' phasers mounts (depending on whether the two below the impulse engine were present or not, some Mirandas seem to have them and some don't.) It also had the four large phasers on the rollbar. And the two forward and two aft torp tubes in the pod.

So the Reliant did out gun the Enterprise. As for out running it, that's interesting. Did Spock make that statemenrt before or after the Reliant had damaged the Enterprise in the first attack?

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-->Identity Crisis<--

Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :

I think Spock said this as the Enterprise was making a bee-line for the Mutara Nebula. Of course, by this time the Enterprise had been hit severely. I think the case of the Reliant outrunning the Enterprise had to do more with battle damage than design.

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693 consecutive rejections by women since January 1993.

Posted by Dane Simri (Member # 272) on :

Coincidentally, my wife and I just watched ST2 last night. I believe Spock makes this comment immediately after Kirk and company return to Enterprise from the Genesis cave. At the time, the ship had only aux. power available. I have a hard time imagining that Reliant could outrun Enterprise with both ships operating at full power. I'm not a bean-counter, but I also have a hard time imagining that she could outgun Enterprise.

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Dane

"Mathematicians have long held that a million monkeys banging on a million keyboards would eventually reproduce the collected wisdom of the human race. Now, thanks to the internet, we know this is not true." -- Robert Silensky

Posted by Enterprise (Member # 48) on :

Dane,

The Big E had partial main power (Spock's words).

I would agree with others here that the only reason the Reliant could outrun and outgun the Enterprise is because they were "cought with their britches down" and most of everything wasn't working up to standards...

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Brandon "Enterprise" Grasmick
Commanding Officer, USS Sovereign (NCC-74222)

"Captain, the Sona crew are willing to negotiate a cease fire. It may have something to do with the fact that we have 3 minutes of air left."
-- Worf

Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges
-- In time of war the law falls silent.

Posted by Dane Simri (Member # 272) on :

Yes, Brandon, "partial main power" is exactly what Spock said. Thanks for keeping me straight.

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Dane

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

The fact that the Enterprise had "partial main power" while the Reliant had "restored auxiliary power" is also a nice way to set up the final events of the movie. Just before Kirk triumphs and cripples Khan's ship, Scotty says "I have to shut down the mains... The radi.. ation...". So the Enterprise gets just as crippled during her moment of triumph. Now Spock has to save the day - and the good thing is that the system Spock is supposed to repair happens to be the same that propels the warp drive, so the ship is saved from the Genesis effect.

Had the Enterprise had her auxiliary power repaired instead of partial main power, the Spock's sacrifice would have been in vain since he would not have restored warp drive, only impulse. In that scenario, it would have been implausible for Spock to repair both the system Khan damaged in the final battle, AND the warp drive the entire engineering crew did not manage to put back together during Kirk's stay down in the caves of Regula!

Spock was something of a strategic genius in deciding not to repair auxiliary power at all during Kirk's absence, but to go for the more difficult task of restoring main power. Khan thought he had the upper hand when his ship possessed full auxiliary power and Kirk's ship had none, relying on the still-damaged main power alone. But Kirk's ship was now only small steps away from restoring her warp capacity, and in the end, this proved more significant.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Dane Simri (Member # 272) on :

Someone ought to offer Timo a position teaching in the Starfleet Academy Department of Tactics

. Well put, old bean!

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Dane

Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :

Yes! I suspect his true species is Zakdorn.

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When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum

Posted by nx001a (Member # 291) on :

Also another reason why the enterprise won the fight is that khan thinks in 2 dimensions not 3 dimensions. This is the reason why the the enterprise change its orbital plane and then when dowm 2000 metres and came behind the reliant.

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"We set sail on this new sea because their is new knowledge to be gained and new rights to be won" John F Kennedy

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Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :

Well, Kirk and Spock thought in 2.5 dimensions at best. It would have made more sense for them to have altered the 'pitch' of the Enterprise to approach the Reliant from directly below , i.e. with the Enterprise's forward elevation approaching the Reliant's ventral elevation. That way the Enterprise would have been presenting her smallest aspect whilst having the Reliant's largest aspect to shoot at. And it would have brought the Reliant into the firing arcs of more weapons for a longer period of time. Instead the Enterprise goes up and down like an elevator - clearly more inspired by a submarine than by an aircraft, let alone a spacecraft.

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-->Identity Crisis<--

[This message has been edited by Identity Crisis (edited March 24, 2000).]

Posted by nx001a (Member # 291) on :

Just a small change in subject. the latest fact files state the enterprise was removed from active service in 2277 and assigned to starfleet academy. I was wondering what do other people think about this.

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"We set sail on this new sea because their is new knowledge to be gained and new rights to be won" John F Kennedy

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Well, such an early retirement would help reinforce the image that the design itself was quickly outdated - the conversion from a TOS style ship to the TMP configuration would in this interpretation be compromise-ridden and nonoptimal. Thus, it would be easy to understand why the E-A was retired so fast after ST6 and prior to ST:G, and why Constitution-refits are so prominently absent from TNG.

Then again, the Enterprise-nil herself could have been at the end of her structural life, refit or no refit, while the design as such was sound. That would allow for the 2277 relegation of that specific ship to lesser duties, but would not explain the early retirement of the E-A (unless we assume the E-A was also a refitted high-fatigue ship).

I have no problem with a 2277 reassignment date, although as late as 2284 would also work fine. Or as early as 2272, if the refit really was somewhat unsuccessful due to its experimental nature. Then again, ST:TMP could take place as late as 2277 as well if need be...

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by nx001a (Member # 291) on :

I find it hard to believe that starfleey would spen 2 years refitting the enterprise and then in 5 years time decommission her from active service. Unless the enterprise was a testbed in developing new technologies. However if the constitution class was deemed old then why refit the rest of the fleet?

Seemed liked a waste of time and resources

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"We set sail on this new sea because their is new knowledge to be gained and new rights to be won" John F Kennedy

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I'd imagine that several factors came into play.

For one thing, we don't know that they did upgrade the rest of the fleet. We assume so, considering ships like the USS Grissom looked modern but were from decidedly earlier times. But there's nothing to suggest that the whole fleet went through the same process. (And if the whole fleet did, that would seem to support the Constitution's retirement. The refit was nothing special compared to the rest of the fleet.)

Personally, I think the reason is twofold. One, there probably weren't too many Constitutions left by the time the Enterprise finished her five year mission under Kirk. Certainly, out of the ones we saw in TOS, the rate of attrition seemed pretty high. Which isn't surprising, considering their duties. So a decision to refit the Constitution class might not have been a very large one to make. Especially if it was made partially for PR reasons. The Enterprise was a status symbol now, after all, and it isn't hard to imagine some political pressure to keep her in service.

Two, the Constitution class was plain unlucky. Her original role as a frontline do-anything starship was unmatched during TOS, but by the time of the movies we have the Miranda class to handle her patrol duties, and the upcoming Excelsior class to takeover the role of Starfleet's main presence in the galaxy. So while the Mirandas were able to find a niche and fill it quite well for nearly a century, the Constitutions found all their old jobs taken up by a bunch of upcoming youngsters.

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"What did it mean to fly? A tremor in your soul. To resist the dull insistance of gravity."
--
Camper Van Beethoven

Posted by nx001a (Member # 291) on :

Again your comments sound right however I would add a few nore points to what has already been mentioned.

pre-2270 Constitution Class -main work horse of the fleet

However as SOL has already mentioned the roles it used to perform were being taken by other ships after 2270. There is also the constellation class and that was designed as a deep space and long range exploration vessel. The stargazer was assigned a 22 year deep space mission (seemed quite a long time). It was more heavily armed and basically a better replacement for the constitution class.

By the start of the century the ships therefore were Excelsior Class ships which were the workhorse, miranda and her variants for patrol, science and transport and finally constellation for deep space exploration. The Oberth Class would also remain in use due to excellent performances as a science vessel.

Although by 2370 there is the constitution class variant and the intrepid-constitution class variant in service (if you believe in the designs in the DS9 tech manual).

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"We set sail on this new sea because their is new knowledge to be gained and new rights to be won" John F Kennedy

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