Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Could it be that...

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Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :

... the Dyson Sphere from "Relics", the alien relay network from "Message in a Bottle", and the floating ocean reactor from "30 days" are all fabrications of the same advanced civilisation? (Perhaps the Iconians, or some other long-extinct race)

Why is it, BTW, that all the extremely advanced cultures always seem to "disappear"? ("Relics", "30 days", "Time's orphan", etc)

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Posted by Starship Freak (Member # 293) on :

Well, instead of the answer being; they became extinct, why not look to the organians for answers. Meaning that these species that you mention simply evolved so far beyond the need for mechanical devices that they left the corporeal universe and left these devices to be discovered and used by lesser advanced species.

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Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

The reley network was made by the Hirogen, seen in several episodes after 'Message in a Bottle'.

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Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

The Hirogen CLAIMED the network, (or at least, part of it) but I don't believe it is likely that they built it.

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Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

I didn't know that...

I believe it is time for me to do a Hirogen episode marathon.

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Plus, the Dyson sphere was a fiasco, so whoever built it maybe didn't want to take responsibility for it, nor be reminded of it.
Logic suggests they changed their genetic code so that their offspring got less intelligent, making it impossible for them to repeat the mistake. It resulted in shrunken brains, and this newly-altered species could no longer be recognized by any outsiders because they were now two feet taller, with fangs and wrinkled foreheads.

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

I don't know if the relay station originated with the Hirogen or not. I know they said it was really old. One of the things the show never really played up though was just how important the relay station was to the Hirogen. It was basically the only thing that linked their widespread society. That also explains why the Hirogen had such a bad taste for the Voyager crew.

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

As for why the advanced species tend to have disappeared... To be that advanced, they would have to have been around longer, meaning that they've had more time to die out. I mean, just look at Earth. All the really huge empires (Roman, Mongol, British, etc.) are gone.

Of course, there's also the evolution into high beings thing, but that can't apply to all of them. We know that some of them (Iconians, T'Kon) were destroyed, rather than evolving.

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Posted by Starship Freak (Member # 293) on :

Here�s another angle for you, what if someone like the Q continuum made some races extinct. After all, Q did threaten to make the human race disappear from the timeline. What if the Q continuum somewhere along their own evolution could make races extinct, but not make them disappear alltogether? That could account for a few of the races.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Mass extinctions are a nice explanation (especially since they are sort of canon, if we accept TAS "The Sof... er, Slaver weapon"

The analogy to big empires disappearing from Earth isn't all that valid, though - here multiple relatively strong small players have begun to emerge simultaneously since ideas, resources and weapons tech move more widely nowadays. They have begun competing from limited resources, destroying the hopes of old empires to maintain their advantages and hold on to their vast conquests.

In Trek, the current small-scale players are ignorant kids who did not fight their predecessors to extinction - in most cases, they haven't even realized they HAD predecessors until after they perform lots of space exploration. They are on an equal footing when fighting each other, but they wouldn't have had a chance against the old players.

It could be that a strong empire grows gradually and subjugates lots of smaller ones (let's say the Feds do so in "our" timeframe). Eventually it rules much of the galaxy, and controls the lives of all its subjects. It also observes new native races achieving sentience, and some of their member races dying out because of accidents or "weariness". They probably terraform as much of the local galaxy as they can to fit their own biology. They probably transplant a lot of species, including primitive ones, either out of Fed-style "nobility" or because of a need to get rid of these primitives so that a planet can be exploited.

Then the empire dies, for some reason (major civil war, perhaps, or massive transition to noncorporeal existence - or a bug in their cybernet or telepathic link). What happens is that suddenly, a very large part of the galaxy is "empty". There are no "middleweight" players there, because the old empire would not have tolerated such competition. There are only primitives, and pre-primitives, plus the remains of the advanced members of the old empire. Thus, if we can invent a reason why these advanced remains disappear, too, the cycle can begin anew. Primitives grow up in the readily terraformed, benign galaxy. They fight with each other until there emerges a ruling class of identical-strength empires. They slug it out until fewer and fewer of bigger and bigger empires remain, and ultimately a big advanced galactic empire again forms.

But where do the "advanced remains" go? It's easy to see why there are no races *slightly* more advanced than the Fed/Klingon/Dominion level, and why the *really* advanced ones wish to remain unseen or have departed to greener pastures. But what about the heirs to the departed ones? Why do ALL of them have a standoffish mentality in the Metron or Organian style? Why isn't ANY of them actively meddling with the affairs of the newcomers, or trying to rebuild the old empire? Why do only the newcomers build new empires,
without competition other than each other?

I guess we do have to assume that somebody like the Q always declares "enough is enough" and forbids the survivors from trying to rebuild the old empire.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Well, I can see what you're saying, but I think the comparison to Earth empires could be valid. Think about it this way: The Roman Empire was weakened by attacks from the Huns, Goths, Avars, what-have-you. Eventually they collapsed. Those groups that attacked them didn't take over and become huge empirse in the Romans' place, though. The same thing could have happened in Trek. Huge empires from the past were brought down by other groups, but those groups weren't strong enough to last into the present, so it merely seems as though the large empires died off.

I know there were other, and even larger, factors contributing to the fall of the Roman Empire, but, of course, that can be applied to the Trek stuff, too.

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Posted by Captain Richard Miloshkin on :

About the Hirogen...

I dunno where I read it, but it said that they were originally an enlightened race...with incredible, all-powerful technology 'n such...but they got bored. So, abandoning enlightenment and science they became a race of hunters.

So who knows? They more than likely built that relay. How long ago? We'll never know...but long enough to know that the Hirogen are losing touch with their technology, and that someday they'll not be able to maintain it because of their great hunts.

*steps off of soap box again*

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Posted by nx001a (Member # 291) on :

These ancient devices could have been built by the tkon empire since they were suppose to be a large and very advance empire before it collapsed.

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Posted by Alpha Centauri (Member # 338) on :

In my opinion, it is very possible that the Hirogen built the relay network. It was said in one of the Hirogen episodes that it was some 100,000 years old. That's a great deal of time, and at least enough to extend it half over the galaxy.

The technology itself is probably not that advanced that only a 'super-race' (Iconian, Tkon, or whatever) could built the communications stations. What I'm essentially saying is that the Hirogen got plenty of time to scatter all those stations over such a great distance. And their way of living requires it anyway.

I also see an analogy with the Federation, building starbases and outposts. The greater explored space becomes, the more bases are established.
In the TOS-era, the number of starbases was only in the dozens. Now, in the 24th century, starships had become significantly faster, extending the frontier of explored space, and new stations and bases have been built accordingly. In the 24th century, the number of starbases in in the hundreds.

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I'm not sure where the impression that the Hirogen built the array comes from, or that they once had an extremely advanced civilization, but I can't seem to remember any of it. As I recall, it was rather strongly implied that they simply claimed it as their own.

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Posted by Captain Richard Miloshkin on :

I probably gleaned it from the countless sources I review all the time...if it's not canon, and if you are right...call it my hypothesis.

We'll never know for sure anyways.

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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon. --- Susan Ertz