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Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

To get right to business: is the Constitution Class still in service?
Many people just assume that they're not around anymore, but this has never be confirmed or denied by any episode.

There is only one dialogue in wich Picard says that there is a Constitution in Museum (or was it a training ship, I forgot). I think he meant that either a non-refit Const. or a Const with old computers 'n' stuff (no TNG-LCARS, that is).

Further more, there are two sightings of the Constitution Refit in TNG & DS9:
The first one was the secondary hull spinning around in one version of "Best of Both Worlds, Part II". Recently, Okuda more or less confirmed that the prominent piece of wreckage in the lower left corner of the viewscreen (in the same ep) was the Enterprise saucer after the destruction in Star Trek III: TSFP.
The second sighting of the class was in "The Sound of Her Voice". In this episode, a starship has crashed on a planet and we are showed the wreckage. Now, this is just IMO, these pieces of wreckage look a lot like the destroyed STIII Enterprise:
1) The saucer looks remarkably like the one in BoBW, desribed above
2) We get to see a structure that looks like a Constitution refit nacelle sticking out of the ground.

WIth all this evidence, I believe the Constitution is still in active service, just like (but not so abundant) as the Miranda. Another question: what was the mission of the SoHV ship?

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

I believe it was out on a long, deep-space exploration mission.

As for the Constitutions, Picard's line in "Relics" was that he recognized the holodeck bridge because there's one (a Constitution) in a museum somewhere. The way he said it was very, very suggestive that that was the only one still around.

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"I just measured him. He's about 21"."
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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Yes, the Olympia from "The Sound of Her Voice" was on a long term deep space exploratory mission. Assuming the Connie Class is still in service, the Olympia would not have been one of them. I've seen screen caps of that sequence and I can't really make heads nor tails out of it.

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Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

The existence of Constitution bits and pieces in the TNG era certainly wouldn't indicate the class itself is still in active service. We've already seen the Miranda and Constellation, both of which have components that very closely resemble or are identical to the Constitution refit. There could be a half-dozen other classes in service that similarly share parts with the Constitution refit and all we might have seen have been those.

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"Truth about Santa Claus debunks Santa God. God evolves from Santa."
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Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

Remember that the bridge seen in Relics is the of old Constitution not the refit version.

Also, wasn't the Republic, mentioned in 'Valiant' supposed to be a Constitution Class?

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"I think I speak for everyone here when I say, 'Huh?'."
- Buffy

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

No, that's just an idea put forth by people who want the Constitutions to still be around.

As for the fact that the "Relics" bridge was TOS-style, Picard didn't make that specification. He simply referred to it as "Constitution-class" before saying that there was one in the museum.

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"I just measured him. He's about 21"."
-Chris Martin, 14-Jul-2000

Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :

I think he meant the orginal design of the Constitution class. Why would you meantion something like that without meaning what he is actually looking at. It would be like saying that the 200 model of the Mustang were your favorite. Then say that there is a design of the 1967 Mustang is on display.

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

I seem to recall that the dialogue went something like this:

Picard: "This is the bridge of a Constitution-class ship, isn't?"
Scotty: "You're familiar w/ them?"
Picard: "There's one in the fleet museum..."

Okay, so that's not exactly how it went. But I'm pretty sure that it sounded as though Picard didn't know much about any differences in design.

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"I just measured him. He's about 21"."
-Chris Martin, 14-Jul-2000

Posted by spyone on :

1) The episode author for "Valiant" is quoted in the encyclopedia as saying that the USS Republic training vessel mentioned therein was intended to be the same one Kirk served aboard, HOWEVER, I am none too sure this ship was a Constitution Class to begin with. Anyone out there got that ToS ep on tape?

2) The uss Stargazer was to be a Constitution Class ship until they got the budget to build a new model, so it was in their minds that there could have been Constitution Class ships in service until 2355 or so.

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Was in their minds. But I hardly think we can say that every idea floated for an episode is worthy of our consideration.

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Posted by spyone on :

okay, it was more than in their minds. In fact, the Stargazer was made a Constellation Class vessel because the word "Constellation" is easy to dub over "Constitution" (as your mouth makes the same shapes) and they had already shot scenes where Geordi, in particular, referred to it as Constitution Class.

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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

Posted by Alpha Centauri (Member # 338) on :

Well, I like the idea of the Constitution still being around (although some 130 years by now). I am also tempted to believe that there was a Connie at Wolf 359. Although not rated for Borg combat, it might have been thrown in as a flying bomb. But I don't believe that the Olympia might have been a Connie. Why send a Constitution on a long-term exploration mission.
But I like the idea of the Republic being a training vessel for Academy cadets very much. However a Connie's systems are too ancient for the cadets to make them really learn something about operating a starship, it could still be used for piloting excercises.
And if Mirandas and Oberths are still around, why not the Constitution?

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Because they are still buidling new Mirandas and Oberths.

I suppose they could still be building new Connie's as well, but it doesn't seem all that likely. Otherwise, i think they would've shown us one by now.

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Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

The reason why we haven't seen any Constitutions on screen is because all those viewers who aren't followers of the whole scheme would think it's the Enterprise

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Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :

The Mirandas and Oberths if we don't use the idea that the Miranda class was refitted like the Constitution class would be newer than the Constitution class. The Constitution would be 50 years old at the time the Enterprise-A was decommissioned. The Miranda class might be 30-40 years old at that time. Maybe the Miranda class was so successful in design that Starfleet decided to use it for future designs.

I love the Constitution class old and new design. However the Constitution at the time in 2390's was being replaced by the Excelsior as a exploratory cruiser.

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It is better to walk the path of the devil than to be in the path of the devil. Though it still might not be the right path.

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

Fabrux is correct with the real world reason, unfortunately...

I mean, take the first time when you saw DS9's Tribble episode. What did you think when you saw the Constitution outline (before the registry was readable)? Was it 'That's a Constitution Class' or 'That's the Enterprise'?

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Well, in that case, everyone knew it was the Enterprise. How about the first time we saw a non-E-D Galaxy in DS9 (I believe that would be the Odyssey)? You didn't think that was the E-D, did you?

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"I just measured him. He's about 21"."
-Chris Martin, 14-Jul-2000

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

Yeah, well..they talked a couple times about when the Odyssey was due to arrive, so the inference was there.

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Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

The idea of a Constitution at Wolf 359 being a flying bomb has its ups and downs: On one hand, it would make the hypothesis that the Excelsior class Melbourne was also a flying bomb more feasible. However, since Picard stated that the Constitution class was museum material, I seriously doubt someone would want to use one in this way, Borg or no Borg. Just because Okuda used the Star Trek 3 Enterprise model for the graveyard scene doesn't necessarily preclude that a Connie was at Wolf 359. We only see a portion of the engineering hull in one shot, and an extremely damaged saucer in another. These could be parts of a totally different type of ship, if you wanted to use your imagination.

As far as the class identity of the Olympia goes, maybe something will be written about it in the upcoming DS9 Companion. I can see the front of a Constitution type nacelle sticking out of the ground, but a Constellation class has similar nacelles, and would have been a more logical choice of ship for a deep space mission.

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

You know, I did do a big list of the reasons I think the Constitution is no longer around. Not that anyone read it.

Posted by Cammodude on :

About the Constitution class part seen floating around in BoBw, they might of been ships like the federation destroyer or the federation dreadnought from Starfleet Command. It's just a thought.

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Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :

Maybe, but the Saladin/Hermes classes don't have secondary hulls like the Connie. And the Federation class isn't completely canonical. The name Entente may have been heard in ST:TMP, but the ship was never seen nor any other design like the Federation class. The Entente could have belong to some other class for all we know.

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Posted by Cammodude on :

Well then how about the federation battleship from Starfleet command. It had a saucer section like the connies saucer and it had two stardrive sections.

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Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :

I've never heard of or seen any ship like, canon or non-canon, so most likely this ship would not be at Wolf 359 either.

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Yosemite Sam: "Well, I speak loudly and I carry a bigger stick...and I use it too!"

Posted by Cammodude on :

You will see the federation starships a discribed on a computer game CALLED Star Trek: STARFLEET COMMAND. It was realesed last year. The distroyers and the dreadnoughts from this game are NOT the same ones from the Starfleet Acadamy handbook, or whatever that was called. You will also find the federation battleship I discribed in the game as well. All the ships in Starfleet Command WERE designed BY Paramount. I suggest you try out Star Trek: Starfleet Command. It's a very cool game!

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--Aurther
The Journeyman Project 3

Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :

Most likely, there were not designed by Paramount. Paramount may have approved the game, but that still doesn't make it canon. Usually what's considered canon is what's been aired on television and in the movies. Reference books by the producers and background info provided by them is supplemental and is semi-canon. The animated series is considered by many to be apocryphal and non-canon. All other books, especially the novels, are non-canon. All computer games are non-canon. Reference software is semi-canon along with the reference books. The possible ships you have described are not going to be considered to be part of the official Trek and not at Wolf 359.

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Teddy Roosevelt: "Speak softly and carry a big stick."
Yosemite Sam: "Well, I speak loudly and I carry a bigger stick...and I use it too!"

Posted by Alpha Centauri (Member # 338) on :

First of all, I want to say that everyone must decide for themselves what's canon or not. You simply cannot dictate to others what is part of the Trek-universe or not. Everyone has his/her own view of it. Star Trek is just TV, so that must be possible (unlike real-life history, which cannot be denied, and everyone must follow the same set of rules). According to my definition of canon, TAS is canon (although apocryphal at some points, I concur), the TNG and DS9 manuals are canon, Jeri Taylor's Voyager novels, etc. As long as it's authored by someone who plays a significant role in the production of Trek. (no commentaries please, it's just a statement)

Back to the Paramount-approval/canon discussion...
If we would consider everything Paramount approved as canon, that would also include Franz Joseph's Star Fleet Technical Manual, virtually all games, FASA, etc. But that's where I draw the line.

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[This message has been edited by Alpha Centauri (edited July 20, 2000).]

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

FASA... *shudder*

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"Huh. An intelligent guard. I never would have guessed."
-Preed, Titan A.E.

Posted by Cammodude on :

PopMaze, The ships in Star Trek: Starfleet Command WERE designed by Paramount artists. I read so myself in Star Trek Magazine. Unfoutuneatly I can't remember witch issue.

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--Aurther
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Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

*hauls out issue 5 of The Mag*

It doesn't say anything about the ships being designed by Paramount in this article. It says the game is based heavily on Starfleet Battles. So, unless Starfleet Battles's ships were designed by Paramount...

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"Huh. An intelligent guard. I never would have guessed."
-Preed, Titan A.E.

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

"...Battles" wasn't approved by Paramount, let alone designed by it.

The ships are non-canon. Period.

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"Truth about Santa Claus debunks Santa God. God evolves from Santa."
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Posted by Cammodude on :

Are you sure about that????? Oh, hell.....my old memory fails me again, and I'm only 15! Sorry about that.

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[This message has been edited by Cammodude (edited July 21, 2000).]