When several starships were converted from the physical models to CGI ones, the Nebula-Class obviously was heavily modified with Galaxy parts. The saucer was "upgraded" with more windows and two impulse engines (though not as obvious as the Galaxy-Class's) while losing the Starfleet insignia and aft phaser arrays. The deflector changed in shape to be more eliptical like the Galaxy-Class and lost the roundness to it.

Though it is obvious the reason to this is poor attention to detail when converting the Nebula-Class into the digital world, I have created a quite plausable theory on why the differences have occured taking on account that we know Starfleet refits their vessels, Nebula-Class ships were put in service during the Cardassian War (and thus the design is a little older), and the DS9 manual, even with its mistakesm hints at "uprated" Nebula-Class ships with more power, etc...Anyway, I would like other people's opinion on my explanation.

"...Many parts of the Nebula are shared with the Galaxy class such as the warp nacelles, and the warp core, along with a few of the computer systems. However, there are many more differences. In the Nebula's long service with Starfleet, it has gone through at least two generations of design.

The first generation Nebula had some subtle differences with the Galaxy. For instance, the saucer section on a first generation Nebula cannot separate and had fewer windows. As a result, the first generation Nebula had only one main impulse engine and was not equipped with saucer mounted engines like the Galaxy. The location on the saucer where the impulse engines would have been on the Galaxy were fitted with a short phaser array. The USS Sutherland is one such example.

A first generation Nebula also had fewer windows on its saucer. There is a theory that the Nebula was designed and put into service before the Galaxy. If so, it is possible that the saucer was not fitted to its full extent with crew quarters and other facilities such as a Galaxy's saucer.

One other feature was also unique to a first generation Nebula: her deflector dish. The deflector dish on such a vessel was of different shape than the Galaxy's. It is possible the design and shape of the first generation Nebula deflector was under influence of the Ambassador-Class. This would explain the dish's more roundish shape.

Somewhere along the line, the Nebula recieved an upgrade. This was the birth of the second generation Nebula. These ships were more powerful and versitile than their predecessor. One of the most noticeable upgrades was the addition of two saucer mounted impulse drives. This could suggest that the second generation Nebula can seperate and/or has more maneuverability with these additions.

Along with these new engines, the saucer also recieved more windows like the Galaxy. This suggests that the saucer has been fitted with more crew quarters and other facilities not present on a first generation Nebula.

The second generation also replaced the rounder shaped deflector dish with a more elliptical one like the Galaxy..."

Anyway, this is part of what I wrote for a class article for my website, the Nebula-Class Starship Database (NCSD).

Any thoughts?

------------------
Ace

------------------
"Neil says hi by the way" - Tear In Your Hand, Tori Amos

------------------
"If Picard was set loose on a Monopoly board, he'd try and establish peaceable diplomatic relations with Marvin Gardens and give St. James Place wide berth so that its culture could develop without interference."
--
L. Fitzgerald Sjoberg
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Because I'm the passenger, and I ride and I ride.

 

My website is at http://nebulaclass.homestead.com

The site has been going through a revamp, but only the Gallery section hasn't been fully updated to the new interface...just visit it!

Anyway...

"Didn't the CGI version of the Nebula actually remove the tiny vents we like to think of as impulse engines?"

Actually, these pics of the USS Honshu, NCC-60205, show otherwise, unless those are not impulse engines...

Opinions?

------------------
Ace

[This message has been edited by Ace (edited July 27, 2000).]
 

------------------
"Fragile. Do not drop"
--posted on a Boeing 757
 

Somehow, these covered-up engine ports do not strike me as impulse-engine-like at all, any more than the complete lack of nozzlelike features in the physical model.

Perhaps Starfleet had gradually abandoned Nebula construction when Galaxies became available and affordable, and had been producing a number of Galaxy saucers in advance. When the war began to eat away at the fleet, it became evident that all the projected Galaxies could not be finished, whereas Nebulas could be constructed instead at a lower cost. Or then some Nebulas suffered severe saucer damage but had relatively intact stardrive sections. Either way, Starfleet simply took a couple fo Galaxy saucers off the Galaxy production line and hastily converted them into Nebula saucers.

Some of the Galaxy features could be put to use aboard the ships, including the new windows. But even a modern Nebula didn't need / couldn't accommodate saucer impulse engines, so the already existing berths for them in the saucer were hastily faired over. These cavities also meant no aft phasers could be installed.

The differently shaped secondary hull bow and nav deflector would have to be interpreted as an upgrade / improved production batch, just as suggested by Ace. But the saucer details could be "downgrades" dictated by the circumstances.

Timo Saloniemi
 

------------------
Pickhard: "What is our progress, Beta?"
Beta: "Excellent, captain. I require only one more Thunderstone to evolve my Pikachu to level 47."
-from the Sev Trek movie trailer
 

------------------
Teddy Roosevelt: "Speak softly and carry a big stick."
Yosemite Sam: "Well, I speak loudly and I carry a bigger stick...and I use it too!"
 

I still have to check your Nebula class theory and your website in detail. Anyway, it looks nice.

Two things I noticed: The ship's width should be 467m, and the Honshu should be rather a first-generation Nebula, considering its registry.

------------------
"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
Ex Astris Scientia
 

"Actually, that looks like someone just filled up the standard Galaxy impulse engines..."

I know, but I just found something strange...if you go to the starshipmodeler.com website and check out the DS9 Reference Pics- Nebula-Class, the USS Leeds, NCC-70352, has these semi-engines...What are these doing on the physical model? I'm assuming the model hasn't been touched up since Generations.

"Somehow, these covered-up engine ports do not strike me as impulse-engine-like at all...Starfleet simply took a couple fo Galaxy saucers off the Galaxy production line and hastily converted them into Nebula saucers."

That could be right, but then where are the impulse engines on the current Nebulae? Could this be some sort of advanced impulse engine system like a shuttle's engine which don't have the traditional grill look? I'm not sure really why you would go the extra step of removing the engines if they are already there...

"Hi Ace. Welcome to the forum."

Thanks.

"Two things I noticed: The ship's width should be 467m, and the Honshu should be rather a first-generation Nebula, considering its registry."

Ships width: I'm sure you have some source as to this number.

USS Honshu: Well, my thinking is this second generation was an upgrade and not a whole new type like the Excelsior Type I and Type II. Sure, at NCC-60205, it's the lowest registry we know, but using a system based on registry alone would make the USS Sutherland a second generation vessel. She may very well be now, but not when we last saw her. I'd bet that this transition from the first batch to the second batch would be similar to the Galaxy-Class upgrades we see (added phasers on warp nacelles and neck).

Thoughts?

------------------
Ace

------------------
"I think I speak for everyone here when I say, 'Huh?'."
- Buffy
 

Oh, yes, and welcome, Ace! Forgot in the first reply

Of course, this raises a couple of questions:

1) Why the heck did the modelmakers create these not-quite-impulse-engines for the Leeds? Did they want to address the lack of such engines in the previous models, but found out it would have been too difficult to cut actual holes in the model for Galaxy-style engines?

2) Why were the aft phaser strips removed? Why not for example relocated? Was there any logic or other systematic thinking or method-in-the-madness involved? Or did the modelmakers just say "Let's change things a bit"?

3) If these details match the GCI ship, then perhaps the Leeds also had those extra windows on the saucer. Are there any top views anywhere? The side shots at starshipmodeler are too fuzzy. Then again, the nav deflector on the Leeds looks like it always used to be, at least to me - so the Leeds differs from the CGI ships at least slightly.

4) Looking closely at the aft view, doesn't it look as if the weapons pod now sports SIX aft torpedo tubes instead of the two on the Sutherland/Farragut model (look at the black dots)? Has the number of forward tubes been increased from two as well?

As for speculation, I now think the Nebulas might always have had a non-glowing impulse engine that is located neither behind these odd cowlings, nor in the tiny grilles that used to lie under the saucer lip. Instead, the long horizontal rectangles with tiny squares at the ends could be the actual impulse engines - they are AFAIK present in all the models and renderings. This might be some sort of an impulse signature masking system, experimented on here in a modern warship design but not installed on the Galaxies due to their less warlike nature - the status of the Galaxies as the UFP showcase ships would not require nor really accommodate signature-masking systems of this kind.

And in any case, the experiment was an apparent failure - the only other ship with non-glowing impulse engines seems to be the Prometheus, while the modern Sabres and Sovereigns and are back to prominently glowing engines.

Timo Saloniemi

[This message has been edited by Timo (edited July 28, 2000).]
 

With increased firepower in the battle pod, it would only be logical for the aft phasers to be removed - they are blocked by the pod anyway.

Timo Saloniemi

[This message has been edited by Timo (edited July 28, 2000).]
 

Here's a partial shot of the USS Bogue under attack in "Message in a Bottle".

Notice that along with the "hidden" impulse engines, the aft arrays are not present.

I still believe the arrays are important, esp. when the pod is not attached.

Thoughts?

------------------
Ace

I didn't had the time yet to check out the DS9 Reference Pics at starshipmodeler.com, but is the USS Leeds canon?

------------------
Advertisement in the United Federation NewsPADD, SD 53675:

"Now for sale at your local dealer: Antares class vessels, as good as new! They can shapeshift! Everybody in the galaxy has one! Now for only $800!"

If those squares are torp tubes, then the Akira is not the only ship with angled tubes...

------------------
"Fragile. Do not drop"
--posted on a Boeing 757
 

------------------
"We set sail on this new sea because their is new knowledge to be gained and new rights to be won" John F Kennedy

members.aol.com/mfwan/index.htm

------------------
"Homer, you're dumb as a mule and twice as ugly,
if a strange man offers you a ride, I say take it"-Abe S.

------------------

takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory
 

Also, the aft torpedo tubes need not be angled - the muzzles simply are cut into tilted parts of the hull surface, for whatever mysterious reason. At least the two tubes at the centerline can't be angled the way their muzzles are, or they would intersect each other just inside the module outer hull.

Timo Saloniemi
 

Also, I assume that the impulse engines being behind a 'grey panel' is something the Defiant uses as well - seeing as though the impulse engines are supposed to be at the very aft of the ship.

Andrew

------------------
"Neil says hi by the way" - Tear In Your Hand, Tori Amos

Interestingly, the Akiras also seem to have these "covered" impulse engines on the saucer - except the covers are brightly colored (purple in the prints, but a light color in the real CGI model as well), and the rim has a clearly visible grille that glows in flight.

Timo Saloniemi
 

Andrew

------------------
"Neil says hi by the way" - Tear In Your Hand, Tori Amos

This wouldn't be the first time impulse engines were overlooked in the design of a starship. Someone tell me where the impulse engines are on the Stargazer. Directly aft of the warp deflection crystal on both sides? Nope! In no scene is there any evidence of impulse engines.

How about the mammoth Romulan Warbird? I don't remember any impulse engines there, either. Here's a question: How do starships reverse? Surely something more powerful than thrusters are needed to stop a ship traveling at impulse speeds.

Then there is the Enterprise B. Two HUGE impulse engines exhaust almost directly against the front of the warp engines. Who thought this was a good idea? Some people try to make these into hangar bays in an attempt to ignore such a ridiculous design flaw.
 

Did you say there were dark, filled-in areas in the Farragut as well, similar to those in the Leeds and the CGI model?

The Stargazer impulse engines probably ARE right aft of the crystals - they simply do not glow when on idle. Note that the crystals themselves do not have the usual blue glow, neither are the torpedo tubes painted or lit the usual way. This could be because the two Constellations we observed up close, the Stargazer and the Hathaway, were both derelicts and some of their systems were inactive. Of course, there's a supposedly active Constellation seen from aft in "Redemption" that also lacks the impulse and crystal glow...

Also note that the impulse engines of Kirk's old Enterprise did not glow before the refit - not even when the dialogue stated that the ship was struggling at full impulse against an alien force, and we got a close-up from behind. So it is well established that the glow is somewhat superfluous to the operation of the drive.

Romulans are big on stealth. If non-glowing impulse engines are possible at all, Romulans would be the ones to utilize them. The bright glow of the Galaxy engines could be comparable to the fact that Galaxies do not have cloaks.

No comment on the odd E-B.

All in all, I would say that impulse engines need not glow - BUT it would be nice to have some sort of grillwork or identifiable nozzles on every ship to indicate that at least the modelmakers realized the ship should HAVE impulse engines.

Timo Saloniemi