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Posted by [email protected] on :

Has anybody ever figured out how many photon torpedoes the ENTERPRISE-A had aboard for last mission?
I found an oversized photo on the internet of the photon torpedo inventory screen as seen in Star Trek 6 and counted 96 torpedoes!? I did 4 counts just to be sure!

JDW

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Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :

96 doesn't seem like an unusual number. Voyager started with 32 torps and the E-D had 200+.

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[Bart's looking for his dog.]
Groundskeeper Willy: Yeah, I bought your mutt - and I 'ate 'im! [Bart gasps.] I 'ate 'is little face, I 'ate 'is guts, and I 'ate the way 'e's always barkin'! So I gave 'im to the church.
Bart: Ohhh, I see... you HATE him, so you gave him to the church.
Groundskeeper Willy: Aye. I also 'ate the mess he left on me rug. [Bart stares.] Ya heard me!

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

The main problem would be where the casings are stored. A hundred torps sounds perfectly okay for a Constitution class ship, even if Kirk used them surprisingly sparingly - but the casings have to go somewhere. Traditional cutouts of the ship do not show large magazines. But probably a major chunk of the connecting fin would have to be dedicated to torpedo storage if 100 of them were available.

It seems unlikely the torps could be anywhere else but the connecting fin. The casings came from above in ST2, after all. Of course, the ST2 ship might have been a special case, a ship configured differently from other Constitutions because a) she was a prototype conversion and b) she was a training ship. The E-A could have been a series-production ship with a drastically different (and larger and better) torp system, as hinted at by the different interiors of deck 13 (or what little we saw of them).

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

So the Quantum torpedo, although larger in size, takes up less storage-room than the photon?

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Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

The torpedoes came from above on the E-Nil. What was the main thing that blew up when it self-dectructed? The saucer. Might these two facts be connected somehow?

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Luke Ford: "What's it like having a dick in your ass?"

Zoe: "Imagine taking your bottom lip and pulling it over the top of your head. You get used to it but it does hurt."

Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

Yes, well, the front section of the saucer was what blew off. Nothing behind the bridge was really destroyed, and I really doubt any form of torpedo magazine would be stored way up there, especially sicne most deck plans we have seen for the Connies and refit Connies have crew quarters filling up the large sum of the saucer section.

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Me: "Why don't you live in Hong Kong?"
Rachel Roberts: "Hong Kong? Nah. Oh, but we can live in China! Yeah, China has great Chinese food!"

(discussion with fellow classmate, 9/5/00)

Mustang Class Starship Development Project

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

So what blew up then? Crewmen's smelly socks? Whatever. Must have made for a hell of an orientation lecture: "Here's your bunk. Mind you don't stub your toe on the scuttling charge underneath it."

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Luke Ford: "What's it like having a dick in your ass?"

Zoe: "Imagine taking your bottom lip and pulling it over the top of your head. You get used to it but it does hurt."

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

If any of you have Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise, it has an amazingly good explanation of why the primary hull detonated and not the secondary hull.

It stated there were two self destruct codes. One was to be initiated in free space far from any planetary bodies. This would override the safety protocols and open the magnetic interlocks (or whatever they're called) on the antimatter storage bottles, blowing the whole ship up like a giant antimatter bomb. The resulting explosion would hopefully take any ship near it as well, (this sort of explains why Kirk wanted to get away from the Reliant before the Genesis device went off and detonated the antimatter containers).

Another was to be initiated when the ship was close to a planet or other celestial object. It would overrride the main breakers and arm ordnance packages throughout the primary and secondary hull. The resulting explosion from the ordnace packages and electrical overload, while not as spectacular, would render the ship a lifeless hulk useless to enemy captors. If the ship was in luck, its orbit would destabilize and it would fall into the atmosphere of the neighboring planet or aforementioned celestial object. The antimatter bottles would be ejected along a preselected route chosen by the computer in the last minute before detonation. This is what we saw in ST-III. Everything except the antimatter bottles.

Wow! I typed that all from memory too!
Hm, that's actually kind of sad.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

"this sort of explains why Kirk wanted to get away from the Reliant before the Genesis device went off and detonated the antimatter containers"

I rather suspect it was to avoid becoming a nice Enterprise-sized patch of soil on the newly forming planet.

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20th century, go to sleep.
--
R.E.M.
****
Read chapters one and two of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Show no patience, tolerance, or restraint.

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

::Laughs:: Same idea.

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

I've actually never asked; What is the official reason the Genesis-torpedo didn't need a planetary host to form a planet this time?
Was the billions of kilos of matter compressed in energy inside it?

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

I was about to ask about what happened to the antimatter bottles if the saucer-destruct option was enabled. . . Hmm. It sort of makes sense, I guess. Might even explain why the ship was nudged out of orbit - equal and opposite reaction to the ejection force!

My Dynamics lecturer would probably turn in his grave. . .

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Luke Ford: "What's it like having a dick in your ass?"

Zoe: "Imagine taking your bottom lip and pulling it over the top of your head. You get used to it but it does hurt."

Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :

I've always wondered about how the Genesis device was able to form a planet when it wasn't introduced on a planet. The closest I've been able to figure is that when the Genesis detonated, it somehow began using the matter from the Reliant and the Mutara nebula to form a planetary body. This could be an additional explanation as to why the Genesis planet was so unstable (of course, using a protomatter matrix is still the big #1 reason).

Some support of this theory can be scene in the Reliant explosion scene in Star Trek II. The Reliant explodes, filling the screen with white light. When the light dims, the nebula has disappeared.

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694 consecutive rejections by women since January 1993.

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

That's what I've always assumed.

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Luke Ford: "What's it like having a dick in your ass?"

Zoe: "Imagine taking your bottom lip and pulling it over the top of your head. You get used to it but it does hurt."

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

Not to jump on the bandwagon, but me too. It makes sense that the matter in the nebula was used to create the planet. That's how all planets, (presumably) start out. Perhaps the Genesis device caused a major gravity well in the local vincinity, pulling the nebular(?) dust in toward the initial explosion? At warp speed, this wouldn't have effected the Enterprise.

However, there are problems with this. What was the original structure of the Regulus system? Did it have a sun? Or was that formed when the Genesis device went off? If there was a sun there, (presumably there was), how did the Genesis planet form at the perfect distance to support a class-M habitat?

Hmmm. An intriguing problem, my dear Watson.

Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :

The Regula system was as it was when if was formed billions of years ago. Genesis did nothing new except create that jungle in the asteroid/planet. If Genesis created Regula, people would be wondering how it got there so quickly. And the crew of Enterprise would have known something about it before arriving.

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

The Regula system was presumably lifeless, maybe from its proximity to the Mutara Nebula.

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Luke Ford: "What's it like having a dick in your ass?"

Zoe: "Imagine taking your bottom lip and pulling it over the top of your head. You get used to it but it does hurt."

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Which makes one wonder. Presumably, the asteroid was there from the beginning, and apparently, it was orbiting a star which illuminated the scene. The two ships, traveling at impulse speed, then managed to reach a nebula. Later, a life-bearing planet was discovered circling a star, somewhere within the range of the Genesis blast from the nebula.

Now, the simplest setup to me would be one where there was a single star with at least two pre-existing solid bodies, the asteroid and the planet, and a pre-existing nebula that extended practically into this system. Since the Regula scenes looked darker than the Genesis-planet ones, I'd say Regula was farther out from the star - and from the light angles, I would say Mutara was outer still.

What are the max/min distances we could consider here? Kirk and Khan could have traversed something like a couple of light-hours at impulse from Regula to Mutara - there was major snippage in that chase scene anyway, so why not something like 5-10 hours? Or then there was very little snippage and the nebula was within a lighthour, practically enveloping the star system.

Then Khan would trigger Genesis, and Kirk would go to warp. A rear view (but not necessarily an exact 180--degrees-from-forward one) would show the Genesis effect enveloping the nearby star system at lightspeed or faster, and transforming the pre-existing planet there, while leaving the pre-existing star unaltered.

Kirk would later return to the system, not to the exact site of Khan's demise, and would find this life-bearing planet there where originally only a lifeless one had existed. The Regula asteroid would also bear life at this point, most probably - unless it had shattered under the blast.

This sounds to me more acceptable than the idea that the Genesis wave created the planet at a suitable distance from a pre-existing star, or even created the star as well. The effects shots of the planet "forming" could just as easily be interpreted as a pre-existing planet "reforming".

Of course, the easiest solution of them all is to say that the Regula asteroid *was* the Genesis planet. It was spherical to begin with, and had plenty of gravity (to keep the ships and the station in orbit and the waterfall falling, even if the people walked with the help of grav-plates under the dirt floor).

And one would think the Genesis torp would have been preprogrammed by the Marcuses to do what it did - it's not appealing to think that it created a planet through *malfunction*! Surely the Marcuses would have used Regula once more for their experiment, this time shooting for the surface instead for the caves, unless there was something to prevent this. And we weren't told of any such hindrance. So presumably the Genesis torp was crosshaired to the 'roid all the time.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

But then why were they searching for a lifeless planet, i.e. Ceti Alpha Whatever?

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Luke Ford: "What's it like having a dick in your ass?"

Zoe: "Imagine taking your bottom lip and pulling it over the top of your head. You get used to it but it does hurt."

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Good point. Okay, so the device *wasn't* crosshaired to Regula. Probably it wasn't crosshaired to the pre-existing planet in the Regula system, either. Perhaps that planet originally had too much life on it?

If a pre-existing planet was needed for Stage Three, then it seems unlikely the device would be programmed to generate a planet out of nebulaic gas. It is slightly more plausible that a misfire would convert any planet encountered, not just the one in the crosshairs. It would of course be the most plausible if the device worked as programmed, and converted only its intended target, but that doesn't seem to be an option here.

If David Marcus originally wanted to convert a Ceti Alpha planet from desert to jungle, and his machine ended up converting a nebula into a planet instead, one would think he and Saavik would be less surprised to see things go badly wrong on the planet. "The planet isn't what you expected, is it?" wouldn't be a very observant observation from Saavik if David had expected to convert a preexisting planet and had accidentally converted a nebula instead. If, OTOH, the plan had proceeded almost as intended and the planet *still* was behaving oddly, the statement would make more sense.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Moreso, why did they need a sterile planet? "Not so much as a microbe" that Esteban-pussy said.
Don't you think Chekov and the other fellow spread a couple of thousand microbes when they exhaled in the (then unknown) Botany Bay?

Besides, there were plenty of life and meat aboard the Reliant, although not much of it was singing anymore, and the planet still came out fairly well...

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Had another idea, related to the original topic. Since the new quantum-torps are stored battle-ready, unlike the photons, wouldn't they make a formidable self-destruct tool?
If a Sovereign would detonate all their magazines simultaneously, I think it'd be a nice last stab at the foes.

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

"Moreso, why did they need a sterile planet?"

Probably something to do with that wacky "don't exterminate other species" policy.

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20th century, go to sleep.
--
R.E.M.
****
Read chapters one and two of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Show no patience, tolerance, or restraint.

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

No, because we saw what happened to foreign microbes introduced into the Genesis effect - the ones on Spock's torpedo. In the words of one of those Asshole Admirals which Starfleet seems to have no shortage of, it would introduce an uncertain element into an unstable situation. And as for what it did to the very large gift-wrapped pointy-eared microbe. . .

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Luke Ford: "What's it like having a dick in your ass?"

Zoe: "Imagine taking your bottom lip and pulling it over the top of your head. You get used to it but it does hurt."

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Sol: I'm talking about plants, algae and moss! That famous animation everybody watched shows how it completely burns the surface.

Besides, you didn't comment on my argument.

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Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Well, probably the Marcuses wanted to demonstrate that their nifty device could produce life out of absolute lifelessness - it might have been a claim they made to their funders or something. If they just fired at an already life-bearing planet, the financiers would come and say "Oh, your machine does nothing but diversify existing life. We wanted one that makes agricultural planets out of sterile deserts. How can we be sure it works if those bacteria and algae and sand eels you had at your test planet aren't there to begin with?"

Or then the Marcuses wanted to do a small-scale experiment at Stage Three - not create an entire biosphere at "full yield" but just transform enough of the surface to create a layer of microbes out of silica dirt. They couldn't rely on their post-blast analysis if there had been pre-blast organisms.

As for Nimrod's idea, yup, blowing up the torps sounds like a good way to cripple the ship. Unless it is one of those with podded launchers. A Galaxy would be nicely severed in half, and Main Engineering probably ruptured as well, if her neck and tail and saucer aft rim blew - but a Miranda might just get some charring at the upper aft hull. Depends on how powerful one of those prearmed q-torps really is, and how many are available. They haven't been all that impressive in the engagements we have seen them used in.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Davok (Member # 143) on :

I don't think it would be wise to rely on q-torps as self-destruct system. This would mean that SD would only work if you still had a certain number of torpedos left - which is not the likeliest thing in a battle situation.
So it would still require the standard antimatter-containment-failure and backup system - which would render the "q-torp autodestruct mode" absolutely useless.

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USS Allegiance LCARS Database

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Yes, I didn't mean it to be the sole destruct-system, just a tactical addition for captains in need of crippling a battlegroup, if they couldn't let anyone past that point in space maybe. I think the torps could be programmed to go off through a timer, syncronizing themselves through radiowaves.

If two bombs are placed next to eachother and the second bomb detonates 1/1000sec (or shorter?) after the other, wouldn't the first shockwave travel at double the speed when hit in the back by the second shockwave? I didn't read ballistics or pyro-thermic physics in school, but it sounds plausible to my little ears.

(IMO, the end-scene in "Warhead" was a real diamond-in-the-rough, FX-wise...)

Therefore, a Sovvie-magazine (containing 150+ torps) would severely damage at least twenty 500m-cruisers close-by, as the stupid enemies in Trek usually likes to stand next to the ship when firing the decisive salvo, like in "Yesterday's Enterprise" or Kruge's dumbass-move.

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Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :

If you look at it differently not only the stupid eneimes of Star Trek do it so do the good guys. Starfleet often flies in the "flying wall" tactic. If you create a decent explosion in the middle it would severely damage or destroy the nearby ships. Then the destroyed ships will create another explosion and damage or destroy their nearby ships.

Of course there is probably a good explanation for this.

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Predict the unpredictable, but how do you unpredict the unpredictable?

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Um...buh? You asked why the planet had to be lifeless. This was well covered in the film itself.

"You think we're intelligent enough to...suppose...what if this thing were used where life already exists?"

"It would destroy such life in favor of its new matrix."

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20th century, go to sleep.
--
R.E.M.
****
Read chapters one and two of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Show no patience, tolerance, or restraint.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

But who would *care* if "as much as a single microbe" was destroyed in favor of the new matrix? We saw no indication that Carol or David Marcus would have been interested in protecting the lives of innocent microbes. Sure, there are people protective of lower lifeforms today, but their numbers do not seem to have increased by the 24th century. Our heroes still enjoy killing fish, our heroic doctors do their best to murder microbial lifeforms, our starship captains get commendations for blowing up space amoebas...

As regards the torp self-destruct, I would set the timers and triggers so that most of the torps would be left armed but intact. A couple of them might blow some holes to the ship, but most would bide their time until the foolish enemy tried to board the vessel...

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Erm...the indication was in Dr. Marcus' instructions. What, are we supposed to think she's lying to the Reliant for kicks?

Besides, there's rather a large gap between keeping a body free of dangerous microorganisms and wiping out entire species that represent no threat to yourself. That example is downright silly.

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20th century, go to sleep.
--
R.E.M.
****
Read chapters one and two of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Show no patience, tolerance, or restraint.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

I thought the mission of Chekov and Terrell was to go down there and kill whatever they found...

Then again, perhaps the Marcuses did care for the critters. How did the dialogue go? Somebody said "Maybe it is something we can transplant..." and somebody exclaimed "Transplant!" What was all that about? Did the first speaker want to save the life at any cost, while the second one just wanted to get rid of it? Who said what?

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

I think the idea with the "transplanting" was to preserve anything that might possibly give rise to new life. I think there was a line where Chekov said, "perhaps its some preanimate matter caught in the matrix." If preanimate matter is something akin to primordial soup, I wouldn't want to be the one possibly destroying the beginnings of a planetary ecosystem. (I know there's an entry in the ST Encyclopedia, I'm just too lazy to go check it).

Also remember, the goal of the Genesis Device was to create "life from lifelessness." If there was anything at all living on the test planet, there's a strong possibility that it might alter the results of the experiment, which is a very bad thing, from a scientist's point of view.

By the way, if Chekov and Terrell went down to the planet, they are carrying millions upon billions of microbes on the exterior of the suits that would contaminate a supposedly sterile planet. (Unless, of course, the biofilters on the transporter got rid of all of those. Which is possible.)

And, with this quantum torpedo thingy, isn't it relatively pointless to destroy the torpedo magazine? I mean, wouldn't that only cause a localized explosion within the hull? It might trigger the explosion of the entire ship, but using ordnace packages for that would be much simpler and more efficient, would it not? Hmmm, an interesting gedanken, as Einstein might call it.

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

P.S. That whole scene was something like this:

Terrell: Maybe it's something we can transplant.
Carol: Wait a minute, something you can transplant?
Terrell: But it might just be a particle of preanimate matter.
Carol: Then again, it may not. Look, you boys have to be clear on this. There can't be so much as a microbe or the show's off. Well, why don't you take a look, but if there's . . .
Terrell: No problem doctor, we'll take care of it, (or something to that effect)

Terrell's motivation for transplanting the supposed particle of preanimate matter is so that he can finally end the mission. Note that he seems tired and demoralized aboard the Reliant. Carol's sole concern is the sterility of the planet to insure accuracy of her experimental results. Remember, they only built one Genesis Device. (I'm referring to the lines,

David: I don't think there's another piece of information we could cram into the databank.
Carol: Then next time it'll just have to be a bigger one. (or something to that effect)
David: Who'd want to build it?

Posted by [email protected] on :

Getting back to the "ORIGINAL TOPIC", does anybody know where Spock and Scotty were when the news about the new leader of the Klingon Empire was made public?
Everybody knows that Spock and Scotty went to visually inspect each and every torpedo!

JDW

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Uh...doesn't that answer your question, then?

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20th century, go to sleep.
--
R.E.M.
****
Read chapters one and two of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Show no patience, tolerance, or restraint.