Flare Sci-Fi Forums: The USS Odyssey Tragedy

This is topic The USS Odyssey Tragedy in forum Starships & Technology at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://flare.solareclipse.net/ultimatebb.php/topic/6/999.html

Posted by Evolved (Member # 389) on :

Hello.

I was having a discussion with a friend one day about the Dominion War and eventually, the USS Odyssey. He had never seen the episode where the ship was destroyed so I told him the basic facts of how the ship got destroyed. The main issue was that Captain Keogh, finding shields ineffective against the Jem Ha'dar fighters, transferred power from the shields to the phasers. However, as the Odyssey retreats, a lone fighter makes a run for the giant ship and rams right into it.

After some thinking my friend brought up this question: Shouldn't the Captain have kept the shields on to prevent the fighter from running into the hull?

At first, I thought there would be some way to put this off, but now that I think about it, I don't know. Had Captain Keogh kept the sheilds up, would the fighter just bounce off, or at least not lead to such a devastating collision? It is after all, metal (or something like that) and not a type of energy weapon.

Thoughts?

------------------
Ace

"Trackball users of the world...UNITE!"

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

I've thought about this before too. The complete destruction of the Odyssey seemed reasonable considering that it would have had its shields lowered.

But later in "Tears of the Prophets" we see the Jemmie attack ships ramming the Klingon vessels and its pretty obvious that the Klingons would've had shields raised. I would've thought that shields would make a difference but in those cases it didn't.

Yet, earlier in "Call to Arms" we see a Cardassian Hideki-class vessel run into the shields of the station and the small vessel is completed obliterated, with no obvious damage to the station. In the episode it appears that the Hideki lost shields prior to the collision.

------------------
"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets)
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK

Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :

In TotP, the klingon vessels shields were probably weakened by Jem Hadar fire before that point. A kamakazi attack should be enough to at least take out shields that haven't been damaged. Shields operating at a lower capacity might not be able to absorb enough of the explsion to save the ship.

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

What about the Tragedy of the Yamato! 1000's of people... dead!

Also, if the Jem'Hadar could counter the Fed shields with their weapons - then i'd say that they could get through with their ships... also look at the Jem'Hadar on DS9 - it walked straight through the containment field.

Andrew

------------------
"This is cooling, faster than I can..." Tori Amos "Cooling"

Posted by Nemesis (Member # 255) on :

I think that a Keogh made the mistake of not diverting energy to shields, with the klingons however i think the Jem'Hadar have som kind of countermeasure.

The USS Odyssey was not a total loss, most of the non-essential personal was evecuated to DS9...

------------------
Seventhworld, the new SciFi-Project

Soon to be featured StarTrek Nemesis

Visit Rogue Fleet! The new StarTrek Internet RPG.
[URL=http://www.pbem-portal.com/trek/roguefleet/rogue_fleet.htm]RogueFleet
Applications are still running!

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

No, Dax suggested that Keogh offload the families. He, of course, in his arrogance decided to decline the suggestion.

------------------
"You just push off....and the falling sort of happens on its own." ---Dave Titus

Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

Really? IIRC, Dax smugly asked him if he was planning on offloading the families, and Keogh's equally smug response was something to the effect of "Of course."

------------------
Star Trek: Legacy -
Timeline of Pertinent Events

Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :

That's always been a bit nebulous. The actual dialogue in that scene goes something like this:

Dax: "...That'll give you enough time to offload all your nonessential personel. You *were* thinking of doing that, right?"

Keogh: "Lieutenant, have you ever considered serving aboard a starship?"

Dax: "I'm happy where I am."

Keogh: "Good."

It really didn't confirm or deny the offloading thing. But I'm sure that Keogh did so anyway.

Mark

------------------
"Why build one, when you can build two at twice the price?"

- Carl Sagan, "Contact"

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Why not just seperate the dammed saucer? Sheesh. They should've gone for the "headless" look in that ep, IMHO.

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Forum Member Who Shall Be Nameless. 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001

Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :

Aw, but THAT wouldn've meant that they'd have to use the 6-foot E-D model, which was likely over at ILM at the time being spruced up and digitized for "Generations". If anything, the DS9 production crew was stuck with the four-foot model (which was likely in real demand at the time, since it got changed into the Dreadnought-edition of the E-D for "All Good Things..." at about the same time.

Anyway, I'm glad they kept the saucer on, if only for that really neat effect of the exploded saucer spinning away from the rest of the ship when it went boom.

Mark

------------------
"Why build one, when you can build two at twice the price?"

- Carl Sagan, "Contact"

Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :

Does anyone have screencaps of the explosion?

------------------
"Oh for fuck's sake, stop your moaning,
If you fancy a threesome at this time of night, you can't get start getting choosey about which particular three!
-Queer As Folk, UK

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

I'm rather sure Keogh evacuated all the nonessentials. Dax and Keogh clearly had some kind of a personal history of distrust. Perhaps Dax really believed Keogh would waste lives if not reminded of the alternatives. But later, in the battle, we hear Dax suggest shield rotation to Keogh, and he replies that OF COURSE he has already done that. Perhaps Dax simply was in the habit of always pointing out the obvious to Keogh to annoy him, instead of actually thinking that Keogh would needlessly risk the lives of the "nonessentials".

As for ramming shielded targets... We saw in "The Hunted" that some solid objects will bounce off the shields, but the "object" there was a minuscule escape pod. Riker and Worf have both considered ramming a Borg cube with their starships, but then again the Borg have weird shields that sometimes let shuttlecraft pass while deflecting weapons fire. DS9 may have withstood the ramming hit of a Hideki, but the station did have mightly shielding and in some battles shrugged off weapons fire that would probably have shredded a Galaxy class ship. And the station in "The Maquis" did weather the proximity explosion of the Bok'Nor right next to one of the pylons, well inside the outer shield perimeter, and in a situation where shields weren't raised beforehand.

So we don't have good yardsticks here. The Klingon ships that were rammed could have been shielded, shieldless, or partially shielded, depending on Klingon arrogance or preceding battle damage. Even the Odyssey might have survived the ramming if not for the piece of debris that hit the nacelle - one of the shortcomings of using models for VFX is that it's difficult to show damage, and the initial hit to the engineering hull fails to show believable damage if you go through the scene frame by frame...

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

I think the point about the shuttlecraft flying through the Borg's shields was that they were only set to stop energy fire, and didn't anticipate anything else - because they were going by Picard's opinion of what Starfleet in general, and Riker in particluar, would do.

------------------
"Businesses used to be like Christianity; if you were faithful and obedient, you could obtain bliss in the afterlife of retirement. Now it's more of a reincarnation model. If the worker learns enough in his current job, he can progress to a higher level of employment elsewhere."

- Dogbert

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Smaller objects can probably bounce off the shields if they are at the right angle. The Hidecki that blew up on DS9's shields was flying straight into them.

------------------
"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Aban's Illustration www.alanfore.com

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

The reason the Odyssey exploded was because the Jemmie ship had destroyed the main Deflector and some of the Antimater pods-thus leading to a major warp core breach!! As for the Klingon ships:- The reason they expolded is that their sheilds were probally at 10% due to sustained Jemmie ship weapons fire and the Jemmie ships did ram them at the end of the ships where the warp cores are so each ship had a warp core breach. Sheilds at above 70% would probally have deflected the jemmie ships but would have considerably weakened the sheilds

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

One thing I forgot to mention: Perhaps one can ram ships that do not have bubble shields? It seems that shield bubbles all but disappeared for the duration of the Dominion war. Perhaps this was because they could not be modified to withstand Jem'Hadar phased-polaron weapons, yet conformal shields or "skinfields" could.

So Klingons would sail into battle expecting weapons fire and thus erecting their skinfields only. Yet the Jem'Hadar would strike by ramming, and no matter how powerful the shields, they would not have the "cushioning" ability of a bubble shield.

Then again, the Hideki rammed DS9 when the station did not have bubble fields. But the station's skinfields could have been orders of magnitude stronger than those of any starship, the Hideki might have been moving slowly (instead of just being shown in slow motion), or the ship might have exploded just before actual contact.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

*applauds* Well done, Darkie, you're getting the hang of it! As for those Klingon ships, have we ever seen them with bubble shields anyway?

- Dogbert

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

A couple of times in TNG, I think. The BoPs certainly had bubbles, and I think we might have seen a bubble on a Vor'Cha in at least "Redemption I".

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Yes, also "Generations".

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

Thanks for the compliment!

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

You only have to thank him once, you know

Posted by Brown_supahero (Member # 83) on :

Why didn't he seperate the saucer

why did the Yamato Seperate the saucer too

Damn these captains who don't know the ability of their ships

Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :

Ah, the old "bubble vs. skin" shield argument...

These so-called skin-shields obviously aren't very effective at stopping weapons fire:

"Way of the Warrior" shows us unshielded (?!) Klingon ships being ripped apart by incoming torpedoes and phaser hits, whereas in "Yesterday's Enterprise" or "Redemption" the B'rels/K'vorts/Vorcha's clearly were equipped with "green bubble" shields.

In "Call to Arms" DS9 seems to have only a rather limited "inner shielding" that is of the bubble type. These stopped the Hideki cold, yet failed to block incoming fire in "Way of the Warrior" because the station's shield projectors are destroyed rather easily... it seemed like the outer sections of the station had no shielding what-so-ever, we see huge explosions occuring on the outer docking ring where DS9 is hit (yet, oddly enough, no real remaining physical damage); I can't really swallow this.

Forward to "Sacrifice of Angels", neither the Dominion/Cardassian ships seemed to have shields (recall the Galor class that was given a pounding by the Galaxies, the phaser shots weren't blocked), as many Fed ships are simply cut right open (quite literally).

Then there is "Tears of the Prophets", we see the Klingon ships being rammed and blown to pieces a-la U.S.S. Odyssee. One might argue that their shields had already been weakened, but this is unlikely as the battle had only just begun and the ships were still in mint condition. Now, maybe the Klingons are arrogant enough to go into battle unshielded when the odds are good enough, but in a massive engagement like that, it would have been suicide. So, what happened to those good old-fashioned bubble shields? Were there in fact skin type shields in place? If so, then why do we see the Romulan Warbird sustain massive damage from plasma torpedoes (presumingly, the Romulans had this new skin too), and the Galaxy take a beating to its engineering hull when a row of torpedoes hits it?

It is odd that in a time when SFX are relatively easy to produce, some effects are simply left them out (to show the audience big booms&bangs, I reckon). Skin-type shielding doesn't exist, it was "invented" to explain certain irregularities.

As for the Odyssee: the fact that weapons can penetrate its shields, doesn't necessarily mean an entire ship can (even if it is making a run at full impulse, which it wasn't). Of course, the question wether Cpt. Keogg made a tactical error by diverting shield power to the phasers is hardly relevant, as no-one would have considered the possibily that the JH would actually ram the ship. And it WAS rammed in a vital section, the ship might have survived that blow if the matter/antimatter containment pods had not been located there. A containment loss was what most likely caused the ship's destruction, not that piece of debris hitting the nacelle or the collision itself.

------------------
"Cry havoc and let's slip the dogs of Evil"

[This message has been edited by The_Evil_Lord (edited January 22, 2001).]

Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :

All this talk of deflector dishes brings back something Picard said in First Contact to Lt. Hawk about using weapons on the deflector: It would blow the Enterprise-E in half! And the Odyssey did blow up in half...

As for the shields, anyone remember "Fury" when Kes tried to ram her ship into Voyager? It just bounced off.

And last, I doubt that a saucer separation manuver would have been an option for either the Oddyssey or the Yamato. The Odyssey may had power failure or not enough to successfully execute the manuver. The Yamato had that Iconian computer virus that may have disrupted all emergency procedures including warp core ejection protocols and saucer separation manuvers.

------------------
"Oh for fuck's sake, stop your moaning,
If you fancy a threesome at this time of night, you can't get start getting choosey about which particular three!
-Queer As Folk, UK

[This message has been edited by Michael_T (edited January 22, 2001).]

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

Hey, people can thank me all they want. Working where I do, I'm starved for gratitude.

- Dogbert

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

If Keogh was going to seperate the saucer, he should have done it BEFORE the Odyssey entered the wormhole.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

More importantly, why should they Odyssey have bothered with leaving the saucer behind at all? Saucer seperation has always been presented as a way to get all your "nonessential crew" out of a battle should the need arise. But the secondary hull doesn't appear to gain any tactical advantage just by being seperate. In fact, it's arguable that it loses out on the extra power and manuverability provided by the saucer. So, in the Odyssey's case, where there was a nice large space station standing by to accept those extra people, keeping the saucer was a good idea.

------------------
20th century, go to sleep.
--
R.E.M.
****
Read chapters one and two of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Show no patience, tolerance, or restraint.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Well, I think the original question was asked in this tone:

Why didn't Keogh evacuate to the saucer if the Jem'Hadar were going to ram them?

Well, the Odyssey got the tar kicked out of it pretty much from the get-go. BTW: did anyone notice that Keogh's XO's seat was to the captain's LEFT and not RIGHT (like on TNG?) Anyway, Keogh probably didn't think the ship was in that much trouble, and there probably wasn't that much warning that that J'H Bug Ship was going to ram the Odyssey ...

One of the Runabout crews (Bashir and Kira?) said, "they're making a run on the Odyssey!" and pursued, but I don't think any of them anticipated the collision course. Even O'Brien seemed surprised, and Sisko said that "they're willing to show us how far they'll go."

Oh, but anyway ... the Odyssey didn't last very long once the J'H smashed into 'em. A few seconds and then KABOOM! The ship was space-dust. I doubt Keogh had time to do much more than shit his pants before he became a couple billion tiny particles.

Frankly, Keogh being the arrogant bastard he seemed to be (old warhorse?), I think the real tragedy here was that Keogh didn't die sooner ...

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

It's strange that not one of the bugs was shot down. Fed-shields were incompatible with polaron beams at first, but the phasers should've worked. The Odyssey should've been able to take a bug out with two volleys. Of course, back then the bugs were mightier...

What exactly happened to the Yamato? I didn't see that ep.
Or did someone refer to the japanese battleship?

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

The Yamato was infected by a rather advanced computer virus, which resulted in a whole host of wacky hijinks. Then the warp core breached. Someone always has to take it too far...

------------------
20th century, go to sleep.
--
R.E.M.
****
Read chapters one and two of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Show no patience, tolerance, or restraint.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

I do wonder why some people are so negative about Keogh. To me, it looked as if he behaved exactly like Picard would have in the situation, and I don't see people persecuting Picard all that often...

What we see is Keogh arriving on a space station with the commander missing, and giving his best "We'll handle it" speech to the panicking underlings. One of the said underlings has some sort of a grudge with Keogh, but he gracefully lets it pass, making just one snide remark to put the bastard in her place in a civilized manner. He doesn't boss around the DS9 crew, he listens to their suggestions, and he respects their desire to accompany the Odyssey, even though he knows the runabouts won't be much of a tactical advantage (to the contrary, actually and the DS9 crew lack space battle experience.

The only thing I could have interpreted as not "likeable" was the belittling of the crew's success against the Maquis - but what he said was absolutely true and a fair warning he HAD to give to protect the lives of the DS9 heroes from dangers they did not need to face and couldn't handle.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Another obvious strategy with regards to the Odyessey's fighting style would have been to separate the ship once they got there and add another vessel to the attack. There are problems with that though. They would have to reconnect before they left. The saucer isn't a very formidable vessel by itself. Worf even called it the entire vessels "bulk" in the first season.

The stardrive section was presented as the real meat of the ship in the first season.

------------------
"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Aban's Illustration www.alanfore.com

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Then again, the Galaxies were new back then. Perhaps the belief in the virtues of separation was an early misconception, corrected later when user feedback began pouring in?

Also, separation might have been more demanding than initially expected. Perhaps a Galaxy couldn't take more than two or three separation maneuvers before requiring major spacedock time?

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Evolved (Member # 389) on :

Hello.

Lots of responses!

Anyway, my personal consideration of the whole incident.

If I was in command of the Odyssey, or any ship for that matter, I wouldn't have dropped shields. Even if the phased-polaron weapons of the "bugs" managed to go through the shields, this was a "first contact" mission, and seeing how so many other races have a torpedo type weapon of choice, shields would have made a difference. On the good ol' NCC-1701-D, we've seen how they've managed to get more power to the phasers/weapons (by diverting power from other areas, even life-support) without dropping the shields.

Also, I agree Keogh wasn't that bad as a captain. BTW, does anyone have screencaps of the Odyssey's bridge?

A Galaxy-Class starship is still a formidable opponent, so why weren't other options tried? Tractor beams? Firing phasers and torpedoes? Did anyone else think that was strange? Also, what was wrong with the port warp nacelle? Did that affect the Odyssey's combat performance in any manner?

It's just a shame to see such a nice ship go up in flames...

Thoughts?

------------------
Ace

"Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things!"

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Is it even confirmed she dropped shields, or is this an assumption-game?

The torpedo-launchers were unusable as the Odyssey stood still in space and couldn't pursue the enemy to get a lock. Maybe if they'd gone to 3/4 impulse, but the bugs would've flew circles around her anyway. Besides, the plot was meant to develop that way.

For the record, I think it was one of the most tragic scenes since 359.

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by Evolved (Member # 389) on :

Yes, Keogh ordered the shield power transferred to phaser power to see if the phasers would have any effect on the bugs.

On torpedo usage, I don't believe it is stated that a starship has to be moving in order to fire its torpedoes.

However, I do agree that Keogh should have had his helmsman at least circle around instead of just sitting there taking the hits. For the record, the Odyssey managed to get off a few shots but, as said before, to no effect.

------------------
Ace

"Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things!"

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

The destruction of the Odyssey was VERY powerful! The Jem'Hadar was a GREAT episode... but what made it better for me was, that the first time it was shown in Australia was at a convention... the whole main room was FULL and we all sat down to watch "The Jem'Hadar" that scene... the whole audience just... GASPED! about. AMAZING stuff.

The best places to always watch episodes was at a convention - especially that convention!

Andrew

------------------
"This is cooling, faster than I can..." Tori Amos "Cooling"

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Speaking of which ...

How good a captain could Keogh have been if he didn't even order his helmsman to engage in evasive manuevers? You'd think that would be Tactics 101 at the Academy:

"It's harder for the enemy to hit you if you're moving in unpredictable patterns!"

Not that zig-zagging did the Indianapolis any good ...

Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :

We can all crank out theories on why the Odyssey didn't do this or why the captain did that, but the point of the destruction of the ship from the producers of DS9 was to show how powerful the Jem Ha'dar were. But at least they could have showed that the Odyssey put up more of a fight.

As for the torpedo launchers, maybe they were disabled with the first few shots that the bugs gave out, along with impulse. When the ship did finally get impulse back to head for the wormhole, the launchers may have still been offline.

------------------
"Oh for fuck's sake, stop your moaning,
If you fancy a threesome at this time of night, you can't get start getting choosey about which particular three!
-Queer As Folk, UK

Posted by Quatre Winner (Member # 464) on :

I thought the Jem'Hadar's main beam weapon had some kind of "Polaron thingy" that went thru standard Fed. shields and caused most of the damage in the first place before the Jem'Hadar ship kamakazied her.

------------------
"Omae o korusu..." - Heero Yuy

Posted by colin (Member # 217) on :

I see arguments that state the new USS Defiant's registry is NX-74205. This is for the reason that we can see the registry.

The incident with the USS Odyssey illustrates the fallacy of this idea. As the Jem'Hadar warship rams and breaks apart on the Federation starship, the registry can be seen. The registry is "NCC-1701-D". Do I argue that the USS Odyssey is a twin sister of the USS Enterprise who is given the same registry for unknown and spurious reasons? No. I say that the registry is wrong.

And I say the same for the new USS Defiant. I can count the number of instances where a starship is given the wrong registry. I don't believe there is a reason in the fictional universe. I put the responsibility of these mistakes on the production teams and say the reason lays with them.

------------------

takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

But then, you could extend that to its logical conclusion and say that Riker was correct all along when he said the Yamato was NCC-1305-E. . .

- Dogbert

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

*So I didn't read all the posts*

Someone asked why the Oddysey did not raise shields before going boom. I'd say that the shield generators were badly damaged during the fight or that the ship lost Primary power.

Someone asked why didn't the Oddysey did not detach the Saucer. Could this be because of the unique Phaser arrays located on the Saucer?

As for the ep itself, I never saw it. My brother said that he saw this preview for a DS9 ep, saw the destruction of the Odyssey, and said that the Enterprise-D went Boom. And that they deserved it.

------------------
"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."

Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :

About the Defiant registery, the assumption that it has the exact same registry as the original is based on the over use of reused footage, particulary that closeup bank from "Sacrafice of Angels". But, I saw "What you leave behind" the other day and I'm sure that there were some new shots of the defiant. Does anyone know if the registery was still NX-74205 in these new shots or did the CG guys pull their thumb out and change the model?

As for why the Oddysee didn't separate, or why the Jemmybug didn't simply bounce off....
There wouldn't have been any point, the time it would take to evacuate the the saucer of remaining personnel and initiate auto-sep sequence AND get the secondary hull clear AND get the thing moving would have taken WAY to long, before or after the battle.
And as for why they jemmybug didn't bounce off, the thing was bloody big for a start, and the minor detail that the ship system where damaged in the opening volly. Not to mention that shields are never been unbreachable, remember Ro's maquis fighter in "premptive strike", or the Duras sister's torpedoes in "generations" ? Plus the jem'hadar at the time didn't seam bothered by any federation sheilds, force fields or tractor beams.

But I do wonder who thought the Oddysee blowing up had anything to do with the A/M pods. I don't think they were kept anywhere near the deflector, if memory serves they are stored at the very bottom of the ship on deck 42 beneath the warp core. But this doesn't matter as the damage sustained to the deflector alone would have been enough, someone mentioned before about the line from "First Contact" saying that the deflector is charged with anti-protons, also the direct impact alone would have delt a serious wack to the SIF causing alsorts of mayhem about the ship...for a few seconds at least. *deep breath* I'd also like to remind you guys about "cause and effect" where it only took a brief but direct hit to the nacelle to cause a core breach.

BTW, concerning the bridge set of the oddysee, was there a dedication plaque made? I know one was not seen but it's possible.

*collapses in a heap with cronic finger bleeding*

------------------
We attack tommorow, under cover of daylight!

Posted by Tech Sergeant Chen (Member # 350) on :

I just watched part of the scene over at Stardock Alpha and the Odyssey had taken some heavy damage before being rammed. One nacelle had been hit and was flickering badly. Could be they didn't have enough power left for the shields to save them. In a no-win situation, you go for the desperate measures, as in all power to weapons and hope we can actually destroy them before they can destroy us.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

To further idolize my favorite guest captain in a Trek show (hey, he was more likeable than Jellico, and the standard guests usually were idiots), I'd like to say that he went down because of the DS9 heroes. What would have made the most sense for him to do would have been to warp out, fire a few torps, warp back in, fire potshots, warp out, fire again... His ship was one of the fastest in Starfleet, and one with potent long-range weaponry that could be used when short-range weapons and shields so unexpectedly failed.

But he couldn't do that. He could barely maneuver at impulse - he was being held back by two runabouts with either too inexperienced or too independent pilots, inferior warp drives and lower-power shields. He couldn't very well start shooting torps when a near-miss could vaporize one of the runabouts, and he couldn't pull unexpected maneuvers since the runabouts weren't tied to his ship's computers and would be even more confused than the Jemmies. And he couldn't hop to warp when his "escorts" couldn't follow. His best chances seemed to be with making a stand and hoping that the runabouts could finish their part of the mission (retrieving Sisko and Quark) soon enough.

If he had refused to accept the "help" from the runabouts, what would have happened? Well, he would have tried to rescue Sisko from that planet all by himself, probably would have succeeded (or allowed to succeed), but the Jemmies would still have made an example of him, and then Sisko and Quark would be dead, too. Killing a Galaxy class ship would probably have been more valuable to the Dominion than sneaking in that Vorta agent of theirs.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

I thought Eric Pierpoint as the captain of the Malinche was pretty cool. Apropos of nothing. . .

- Dogbert

Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :

I don't think the dominion would have gone to all the trouble of trying to plant a spy in federation the alpha quadrant and then go and kill her just because she happens to ba aboard a very tempting target. Besides for all we know she could have been a founder as we havn't seen any other Vorta display telekinetic talents or the good eyesight needed to shoot straight. However she could have been specially engineered with those traights by the founders as a means to escape.
BTW does anyone else think that the dominion already had a covert presence in the alph quadrant at this point? after all we never foundout where she transported to, I don't think you can beam through the wormhole.

------------------
We attack tommorow, under cover of daylight!

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

I dunno about the "warp out, fire, warp in" thing. Almost all battles in Trek are conducted at Impulse speed, and there has to be a reason. Maybe they're a strategic nightmare, or maybe it's really easy to shoot down a ship at warp (which is why the SOA fleet slowed down to Impulse to clear a way through the Dom/Cardie fleet, rather than trying to warp all the way to DS9).

I'd say he made the right move though regarding the shields. They obviously weren't doing anything. Might as well put their power into something useful, rather than keeping them around in case the Jem Hadar deceide to ram the ship (which didn't seem too likely, did it?). And the argument that the Enterprise would have transferred Auxillery power to the phasers instead? Pah. I'd guess the Odyssey had already done that. The ship was in bad shape, and I'm guessing Keong was throwing everything he had at them.

The Odyssey WAS firing torps anyway. Just not when we were looking.

------------------
"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

And of course half of Keogh's officers were Changelings anyway, feeding the Jem'Hadar the shield frequencies of the ship (which fooled the Feds into thinking that polaron beams are something special and can pass through shields) and slowing down repair efforts. They also made sure to keep the shields down so that they could transport out without any risk during the final ramming run...

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :

Yes! but then he wakes up in the shower and its all been a nasty dream!

------------------
We attack tommorow, under cover of daylight!

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

I was thinking about the whole Yamato 1305-E thingy... maybe that was just a "Nick Name Registry" and was only applied for a short time for a special occassion... and then went back to its 7**** number after the "celebrations" were over.

------------------
"This is cooling, faster than I can..." Tori Amos "Cooling"

Posted by nx001a (Member # 291) on :

After reading the posts i have to say that I think Captain Keogh did the right thing. Firstly, the Odyssey was being hit anyway with shields up or down. Secondly, with more power the Odyssey can do more damage to the Jemhadar fighters and probably have an increase in the rate of phaser fire. Personally, I think picard would have done the same.

------------------
"We set sail on this new sea because their is new knowledge to be gained and new rights to be won" John F Kennedy

members.aol.com/mfwan/index.htm

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

Well, we all know the reason why Picard would always win: He's the star of the show

------------------
Chickety china, the chinese chicken, you have?

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

The Warp Core is directly behind the Deflector. Damage deep enough can rupture the Warp Coil and tear apart the ship.

At least that's why I think the Odyssey blew up.

------------------
"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

That sounds like a very plausable reason.

------------------
"That's your plan? Wile E. Coyote would come up with a better plan than that!"
- Crighton, Farscape.

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

Re: Cause and Effect- I believe that the Ent-D suffered a much larger impact to the nacelle which damaged most, if not all, of the Warp Engine Grills (look at the way the Bozeman hit the Ent-D). Since these grills regulate plasma to create Warp power, severe damage to a large number of grills might cause a severe plasma feedback that is a much bigger problem. This feedback can explain why A: the Core shutdown initiated by Geordi was not successful due to the plasma backflow, and B: the resulting buildup of plasma in the Starboard Nacelle caused some sort of "explosion", sending the Ent-D into its deadly spin.

As for the Oddysey, it probably suffered damage to at least one of the grills. Also recall that Keogh ordered Engineering to get the damaged Nacelle back online. One can only speculate that the damage to that nacelle was not serious.

------------------
"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."

Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :

I'd say the damage was pretty serious. The nacelle was hit several times in the opening volley, disabling it and preventing the ship from escaping at warp.

BTW, this may be a little late in the discussion but the Jem'hadar ship didn't actually collide with the deflector dish. If you watch closely, frame by frame you'll see that it actually strikes the torpedo bay. Those of you with a copy of the CD-ROM Encyclopedia can easily check this. One can argue that the torpedo bay would make a more logical target, given that the Jem'hadar might have wanted to disarm and capture the ship if the suicide run did not destroy the ship. Not very likely considering that the script writers would never bother to think of such a pointless detail, but there it is.

------------------
We attack tommorow, under cover of daylight!

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :

Yep.

------------------
"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant
Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them

"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV

[This message has been edited by Ritten (edited January 31, 2001).]

Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :

So now either three things happend:

A: The Jemmie bug hit Decks 22-27, which houses the foward torp launchers and torp magazine, and caused them to detonate.

B: The Jemmie bug rams the ship, causes debris to fly into the nacelle and cause something similar to what happend to the Enterprise-D in Cause and Effect.

C: The impact of the Jemmie bug caused a massive power failure that sent the warp core into an overload.

------------------
"Oh for fuck's sake, stop your moaning,
If you fancy a threesome at this time of night, you can't get start getting choosey about which particular three!
-Queer As Folk, UK

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Or all three of the above.

I don't really buy into that thing about deflector discs always being on the brink of blowing up the ship. The antiproton (?) charge on the E-E disk might have been a temporary thing, either something the Borg created as part of the process of converting the dish to a beacon, or then something resulting from the time travel trip or damage the ship received in the opening battle.

One would assume that the Klingons would know of this weakness if it really existed - so the Duras sisters could have aimed five degrees lower in "Generations" in their opening volley, and destroyed the E-D with a single shot!

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

Well, a collision this close to the Warp core can still rupture it without the need of a power surge. I can only imagine the damage to the Odyssey as not only colossus, but fatal.

------------------
"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."

Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :

am I right in thinking that the bit of wreakage that hit the nacelle was actually the deflector dish?
not the blue glowing part, the actual red dish bit. If that was charged with anti protons then it would have contaminated the warp plasma, I'm not sure if the flow can go the other way but if they got into the warp core it could have caused all kinds of jiggery pokery. I don't think that the warpcore itself was hit by the impact, it is further back than some have suggested and as such is well protected from a forward hull breach. Infact, except from the obvious damage to the deflector array (blue bit) - which was probably caused by the torp mag - most of the damage seems to be on the neck section of the hull. As this is a critical stress point, its being weakened would put a big strain on the SIF and just add to the damage already incured and lessening the options avalible to the captain in the 3 seconds that followed. All this is rarther irrelevant again.
Bottom line is that - Ship was rammed - Ship go boom - season gets dramatic ending.

------------------
We attack tommorow, under cover of daylight!

Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :

Damn writers!!! Couldn't they have blown up an Ambassador Class instead? I mean, the model was sitting around ILM doing nothing!!!

------------------
"Oh for fuck's sake, stop your moaning,
If you fancy a threesome at this time of night, you can't get start getting choosey about which particular three!
-Queer As Folk, UK

Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :

Quite simply, for the shock value. TNG was going out on top that month, and the DS9 people wanted to end their second season a) with a bang, and b) demonstrating that these Dominion people aren't piddly little thugs that Picard & co. could walk all over, thus helping to establish DS9 as a show in its own right. So what do you do? You get a Galaxy class ship, a Picard clone as her Captain, and BLOW BOTH OF THEM UP!

Mission accomplished.

Mark

------------------
"Why build one, when you can build two at twice the price?"

- Carl Sagan, "Contact"

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

And if you're really stupid, think that it was the Ent-D that blew up.

------------------
"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."

Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :

It was the Enterprise-D that blew up. It was just relabled as the Odyssey...

------------------
"Oh for fuck's sake, stop your moaning,
If you fancy a threesome at this time of night, you can't get start getting choosey about which particular three!
-Queer As Folk, UK

Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :

Just reviewed everything that this thread made me think of.

Favorite Captains (top 5, in order, descending):
1) Robert DoSoto, U.S.S. Hood
2) Eric Pierpoint (did we ever get a character name?), U.S.S. Malinche
3) Benjamin Maxwell, U.S.S. Phoenix
4) Edward Jellico, U.S.S. Cairo
5) Morgan Bateson, U.S.S. Bozeman

Favorite XOs:
Karen Farris, U.S.S. Valiant *ga-rrRRRRrrr* ;-)
Elizabeth Shelby, U.S.S Excalibur

ANYhoo.

The scene where the bugship hits the Odyssey shows a registry of NCC-71832 on my TV.

And never mind whether or not Keogh was competent, when are we gonna see Picard get court-martialed for leading the Borg to us?

--Jonah

------------------
"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Boy, long time since I saw the old Kamikaze-approach.
Welcome to the forums, cadet. Keep your hands inside the posts at all times.

As soon as I saw these 16 threads being updated overnight, I sensed a new member in the works.

The whole chain of command on the Valiant was corrupt, as these scared adolescents blindly followed every whim from an equally scared, but foolishly proud "captain". Then again, your eyes didn't seem to be on their 'conduct', did they?

You list Jellico as one of your favourites? That's a first.

I realize you were joking, but anyhow, about Picard's decisions on his first visit to the Delta Quadrant, do you think Q would've had the same respect for him had he thrown in the towel at first sight of the Borg?
I think Picard'd rather have the Borg be aware of them than let all of humanity be Q's pawn.

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

Jonah? I thought you said you didn't like message boards...

Welcome anyways, buddy!

------------------
"Lately I've noticed that everyone seems to trust me. It's really quite unnerving. I'm still trying to get used to it."
- Garak, "Empok Nor"

Posted by Eclipse (Member # 472) on :

Hey Peregrinus, if you're going to count Shebly (sorry, doing a Garbeck) as best XO, Calhoun has to count for best Captain. I can't imagine any of the other skippers (except perhaps Kirk) pulling any of his stunts e.g. mines in the road, pulling swords through arms etc.

Ahem, we now return you to ST canon...

The Malinche's CO was called Sanders, btw.

Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :

Anyway... let's get back to the deflector dish of the Oddyssey. A Jem H'addar bug ship is made of particle, and carries most likely anti-matter in it. So when the ship rammed into Decks 22-27 and exploded, some particles hit the deflector, and then the nacelle, caused an EPS power surge near the warp core, and then the ship went into the deadly tailspin.

That or the ship was stuffed with pyrotechnic explosives with trigger-happy people next to the "boom" button...

------------------
"Oh for fuck's sake, stop your moaning,
If you fancy a threesome at this time of night, you can't get start getting choosey about which particular three!
-Queer As Folk, UK

Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :

Nimrod: Let's just say I've had a crush on Courtney Peldon for quite some time.

As for Jellico, he had a different command style, and Riker didn't make it any easier for the crew by passively resisting said command style.

And as for the Picard thing... I was being deadly serious. Okay. First, I'm gonna piss off an omnipotent entity. Then, once he's knocked us halfway across the galaxy, I'm gonna ignore the advice -- which I requested -- of the only individual on this ship who's been in this part of space. Then, I'm gonna ignore her advice -- which I again requested -- about this race which her people had encountered before. Then, when they prove both their hostile intent (which we were warned about repeatedly) and their ability to adapt to our weaponry, I'm gonna use the absolute minimum force necessary to get them to stop hurting us, give them time to adapt and repair themselves, and them I'm gonna run away on a direct heading for Federation space.

Okay, sure there was probably a cube or scout ship poking around the Romulan Neutral Zone, but they were evidently not tasked with large-scale assimilation of Alpha Quadrant species. As Guinan said, actual contact with the Borg came far earlier than it should have or would have, had Picard not been such a dink.

Eclipse: I was thinking only of Captains I've had a chance to see in the flesh (being acted) rather than just reading about (being written ain't the same thing). And thanks for Sanders...

--Jonah

------------------
"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

Bit of a problem, that name, "Courtney Peldon." Right now it sounds very cute and Britney-ish, but what will it be like when she's in her 40's? A bit strange, really.

------------------
"I rather strongly disagree, even if I share the love of Dick. Speaking of which, that would be the most embarrasing .sig quote ever, so never use it."

- Simon Sizer, 23/01/2001

Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :

Hey, I was reading "Excalibur" since it started in '88. I've had plenty of time to get used to the idea of an adult woman named Courtney (hmm... also blonde and busty...). And besides, ALL of those trendy names we know and loathe from our childhoods and adolescences are going to be 30-and-40-somethings in the not-too-distant future.

--Jonah

------------------
"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH