Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Phase II enterprise seen onscreen

This is topic Phase II enterprise seen onscreen in forum Starships & Technology at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://flare.solareclipse.net/ultimatebb.php/topic/6/1009.html

Posted by Starship Freak (Member # 293) on :

Look at hese two pics: http://titan.spaceports.com/~nzcabac/Federation/Other/PhaseIIPrototypes03a.htm
http://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/st_starships/spacedock/SpacedockNet7.jpg

It clearly shows the same ship we�ve seen in the Qualor II junkyard-scene, see for instance my own screencaps: http://w1.314.telia.com/~u31412332/misc/qualor.htm

Now, In the film it would appear that the ship is in some kind of use, but as what?

------------------
"The Starships of the Federation are the physical, tangible manifestations of Humanity�s stubborn insistence that life does indeed mean something."
Spock to Leonard McCoy in "Final Frontier"

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :

Yes, it all does match. Looks neat, not quite as graceful as the E-D, but, then again, neither is the -E.

------------------
"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant
Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them....

Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

Is this scene authentic, or just a photoshop touchup? I don't remember seeing any other ships in Spacedock except for the Enterprise and the Excelsior (and that little thing that looks like a dumpster that everyone thinks is another ship).

I couldn't see anything when I clicked on the second link, either.

------------------
Star Trek: Legacy

Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :

You have to copy & paste the second link. Xooooom!

And I believe it to be some sort of alteration. In fifteen years, I don't remember ever seeing that ship in that shot (the one where the Excelsior is first revealed). However, I've only ever seen the pan & scan version of the film - this screencap apparently comes from the widescreen DVD. If anyone's got the DVD, they can confirm it.

That's definitely the concept model, though.

Mark

------------------
"Why build one, when you can build two at twice the price?"

- Carl Sagan, "Contact"

Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

I'm looking at the large picture in The Art of Star Trek that shows this Spacedock scene, unfortunatly the picture cuts off right where the Enterprise's shuttlebay is, so I can't see anything. But I notice the picture in the book is different from the picture shown here. The small openings behind the Enterprise are lit up here, and the Enterprise is actually situated more to the left and even at a different angle then in the book. Therefore this picture must be taken from the actual movie, or, again, faked.

------------------
Me: "Why don't you live in Hong Kong?"
Rachel Roberts: "Hong Kong? Nah. Oh, but we can live in China! Yeah, China has great Chinese food!"

(discussion with fellow classmate, 9/5/00)

Mustang Class Starship Development Project

Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

Okay, I was able to copy & paste the link. Thanks Mark!

Anyway, once I brightened the screencap, I could see the scene much better. It does look like there is an actual ship model docked there, and not some kind of superimposed image (actually, the Enterprise looks more superimposed than the mystery ship). If this is some kind of fakery, it's pretty good.

Although I think it's meant to represent the same ship as the Phase II Enterprise, I don't think it's the same model. This one looks a little better than that cardboard study.

------------------
Star Trek: Legacy

[This message has been edited by Dukhat (edited January 29, 2001).]

Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :

I've reviewed my ratty old fashioned VHS copy of ST3 and that ship is in fact there. And I have the regular non-widescreen version. Just keep looking off to the Enterprise's port side as she moves in to dock.

------------------
[Bart's looking for his dog.]
Groundskeeper Willy: Yeah, I bought your mutt - and I 'ate 'im! [Bart gasps.] I 'ate 'is little face, I 'ate 'is guts, and I 'ate the way 'e's always barkin'! So I gave 'im to the church.
Bart: Ohhh, I see... you HATE him, so you gave him to the church.
Groundskeeper Willy: Aye. I also 'ate the mess he left on me rug. [Bart stares.] Ya heard me!

Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :

Really? Well, I suppose we've got another ship to retcon...

Mark

------------------
"Why build one, when you can build two at twice the price?"

- Carl Sagan, "Contact"

Posted by colin (Member # 217) on :

This model, seen in the ST III movie, seems to have one nacelle situated on the center line of the saucer. And, further, she doesn't seem to have a connecting hull structure ('neck').

Could this ship be an early Starfleet class? I think so. And I think this shows that not all starships were retrofitted in the late 23rd century.

I could be wrong here. Wasn't there a ship in the original drawings of the USS Enterprise that showed a one-nacelled saucer ship?
------------------

takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory

[This message has been edited by targetemployee (edited January 30, 2001).]

Posted by Starship Freak (Member # 293) on :

I have to disagree with targetemployee, I think it�s a standard two-nacelled ship. Look at the angle of the ship. I also think that it is the same ship that we see in the junkyard-scene. It has the same texture, the same "grey-scale" and "fuzziness", if you will, that the Qualor II ship has.
On the other hand, how about size? Are we really looking at the same ship? For an instance I thought that the Qualor ship looked smaller.
About the one-nacelled ship, are you thinking of the Saladin/Hermes class? The ones that looks like a TOS-version of the Freedom-class? If so, I have it on my web-page: http://w1.314.telia.com/~u31412332/startrek/ships2.htm

In the book about Phase II, there is a drawing of this ship shown in spacedock, or a very similar one, where it shows that the entire ship appears to be an "air-craft carrier". The entire ship is one huge hangar. We have discussed this before when it comes to DS9, where the question was where the attack-fighters were based.
It is possible that this ship is an old version of an attack-fighter base ship.

[This message has been edited by pIn'a' Sov (edited January 30, 2001).]

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

I'm a big fan of the idea that these triangular-secondary-hull ships were carriers of some sort, hence their distinctive hull shape. It nicely echoes the fact that carriers in current navies are the ones with the most distinctive hulls.

There's something to the theory that this is a single-naceller, too. Wasn't it FASA practice to say that civilian ships usually had one dorsal nacelle? Earth's Spacedock would be a likely place to see civilian designs, and STIII a place where Trek fans employed by Paramount could still let their FASA affectations surface, before the full might of "canonicity" and Enyclopedias and whatnot hit the industry...

Also, wasn't there a fightercarrier with a single dorsal nacelle on the cover of a SFB Starfleet Ship Recognition Manual? (but with LN-64, not the rounded nacelle seen in the picture)

All that aside, I agree that the ship in the picture is a two-naceller, and most likely a McQuarrie ship. Judging by its location, it could be a model or part of the matte. I'd actually vote for the former - note that the nacelles point aft, yet the secondary hull is long and the neck gently sloping. The long-hulled ship was drawn by McQuarrie to have forward-pointing nacelles, and they were only turned aft on the BoBW/Unification model (after apparently having been broken off and reglued). If this is supposed to be the short-hulled MaQuarrie ship, we should see the saucer from this angle.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

That was the FASA Federation Ship Rec Manual, Timo...& it was a Remora-class Class VII escort.

Maybe one day I'll clean the 3 ships off my scanner & set up a picture.

------------------
"You just push off....and the falling sort of happens on its own." ---Dave Titus

Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

Since the entire front half of the ship is obscured by the Spacedock wall (including all of the saucer if the ship is indeed the Phase II Enterprise), it's not definite as to just what ship this is. Heck, it could be a Romulan bird-of-prey for all we know, judging by the one cylindrical nacelle and flat secondary hull that we can see. I'm under the assumption that it's the PII Ent., simply because it's a good candidate with what we see. It's presence in the scene also makes the "dumpster" look like it is another ship as well.

If these ships were in Spacedock along with the Excelsior, then logic dictates that they were built *before* the Excelsior was, in 2280 or whatever. That would mean that they are pretty old in TNG terms. They probably wouldn't even represent any of the conjectural classes in the Encyclopedia, because of their age.

------------------
Star Trek: Legacy

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :

Looking over the Number7.jpg it seems to me that we could be looking at the front of the vessel. I don't see a second nacelle, no I don't think that angled object is the other one. Also the 'neck' on the mock up of the PII E goes to about the middle of the 'engineering' section. This angle piece doesn't seem to be that either, since it appears to end abruptly.
My guess, might be an Admiralty yacht.
The lower section is the main body/saucer, the pylon goes up to the only nacelle on the vessel.

As for our favorite dumpster... I dunno...

------------------
"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant
Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them

"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Actually, it isn't surprising that the far nacelle isn't visible. Looking at the model (c/o Frank), it would seem the ship suffered from Ambassador Syndrome. The nacelle appears to have broken off at some point. It may have been missing when it was filmed for ST3.

Regardless, though, it seems obvious to me that the ship in Spacedock is, in fact, the same as the McQuarrie Enterprise in that picture I linked to just there...

------------------
My new year's resolution is the same as last year's: 1024x768.

[This message has been edited by TSN (edited January 30, 2001).]

Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :

I think the nacelle is pretty good match for those on the long-body, low-nacelle ship. The proportions match: The thick foresection is slightly more than half the length of the entire nacelle (about 55%) and the support is about one third total length and attached slightly behind the front. The foreshortening of the nacelle in Spacedock and the visible front end suggest that the ship is turned toward us (about 20 degrees) so that the port nacelle might be obscured in that dark background.

------------------
When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum

Posted by colin (Member # 217) on :

After examining the only photo that I have access to-the first picture, I would have to agree that this is the Phase II Enterprise.

First, the neck. There is a black spot on the neck, near the aft. This feature can be barely seen in the photo.

Second, the port nacelle, This port nacelle is seen barely behind the neck.

The front is not seen.

This is a very large ship and is very old.

------------------

takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory

Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

How was the interior of Spacedock filmed? Were actual models stuck inside a spacedock "set" or were they added later through whatever the means was?

In other words, is the Phase II Enterprise actually inside this set or added later?

------------------
Me: "Why don't you live in Hong Kong?"
Rachel Roberts: "Hong Kong? Nah. Oh, but we can live in China! Yeah, China has great Chinese food!"

(discussion with fellow classmate, 9/5/00)

Mustang Class Starship Development Project

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Just to clear something up, this ship is a pre-Phase II study model. The actual photographable ship model that was built for Phase II looked more like the movie E.

------------------
My new year's resolution is the same as last year's: 1024x768.

Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :

From what I understand, the spacedock, Enterprise (not "The Enterprise"

), and Excelsior were all filmed separately and then composited. All the models were in separate scales so couldn't be filmed together. The nice clean picture of this scene we see in books and magazines looks like a special composite intended as a publicity still and is probably not a completely accurate view of what appears on film.

------------------
When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Yes, it seems that the central pier structure was a (partial) model too, yet the AoST version has many details of it obviously painted on afterwards. Even the Excelsior windows seem added in "post-production", since they weren't consistent with the model.

Are the Excelsior windows in the DVD-grab different from those in the AoST picture?

Until now, I had maintained the hope that we would not see the McQuarrie ships on screen, so that I could claim their nacelles had standard TOS ramscoops for greater commonality and improvement of silohouette. This nacelle doesn't seem to have a 'scoop. Oh, well. Perhaps this ship was already damaged and waiting for scrapping?

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

Or maybe it's another prototype. After all, the Ambassador class has TOS-like 'scoops.

------------------
"Lately I've noticed that everyone seems to trust me. It's really quite unnerving. I'm still trying to get used to it."
- Garak, "Empok Nor"

Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

Maybe the scoops were inverted, you know, like a big kettle drum?

------------------
Me: "Why don't you live in Hong Kong?"
Rachel Roberts: "Hong Kong? Nah. Oh, but we can live in China! Yeah, China has great Chinese food!"

(discussion with fellow classmate, 9/5/00)

Mustang Class Starship Development Project

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

The scoops are either inverted (my choice) or not there.

But Buzzard scoops aren't necessary for warp-flight, are they? They are basically only emergency deuterium collection things. Or not?

------------------
To know a thing well, know its limits. Only when pushed beyond its tolerances will true nature be seen.
The Amtal Rule (Dune)
---
Titan Fleet Yards - Harry Doddema's Star Trek Site

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

I don't see any reason they couldn't be flat...

------------------
My new year's resolution is the same as last year's: 1024x768.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Is there any chance the ship could actually be the flat Excelsior study model, and a strange trick of lighting is making us see a cylindrar instead of angular nacelle? I don't think this is especially probable, but it's one possibility - the general shapes and dimensions match.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

I don't think so. It's pretty clear, and it looks way too much like the McQuarrie model to be something completely different...

------------------
My new year's resolution is the same as last year's: 1024x768.

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

That second nacelle IS there, i've increased the gamma levels of the pic and its now my windows background... the nacelle is just in a dark area so its blending in with the 'strut' of the spacedock.

Andrew

------------------
"This is cooling, faster than I can..." Tori Amos "Cooling"