Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Faster-than-light, no left or right.

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Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :

I've been using this Paris quote for a signature - and I just started wondering about it.
In the episode it is derived from, I believe that Paris was stating that once in warp drive, a vessel was unable to modify its course/heading without dropping out of warp, re-orienting the ship via thrusters, and re-engaging warp.
Wait a cotton-picking minute... Haven't starships in warp been seen to change heading before (various tv shows). Surely there is a case of Picard aboard the old Ent-D (already travelling at warp) instructing his helmsman to "...alter heading/course to *** mark **" - without either instructing him to drop out of warp - or perhaps there is an exterior screenshot of a vessel altering course at warp?
Or has this already been noted?
Or was Paris just gonzo?

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Faster than light - no left or right.

Posted by trekfan2k on :

If they can alter they're course, most likly it's only slightly. I've never seen an exterior shot of a starship changing course mid-warp.

The reasoning behind Picard not having to teel the helmsmen to drop out of warp, is that it is a known thing that you have to drop out of warp. If a captain had to tell every officer exactly how to do everything, they'd never get anywhere.

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"You left spacedock without a tractor beam?"

"It won't be installed until Tuesday."

-Captain James T. Kirk to Captain John Harriman

Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :

Well I think they did it on the TOS. But in that version of the warp drive, they had to rubber abdn aeeft that we see so much now.

Which episode did Paris say that and did he say it exactly like that? If he did then I nothing left to say but if he didn't then...

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Predict the unpredictable, but how do you unpredict the unpredictable?

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

"rubber abdn aeeft"?

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"...screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" - Omega.

Irony ensues.

Free Jeff K

Posted by Tech Sergeant Chen (Member # 350) on :

I'm pretty sure Kirk ordered "hard about" at full warp several times. There's the Enterprise Incident for one, and when they were trying to escape Trelane for another.

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Never give up. Never surrender.

Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :

We have seen a visual effect of a ship making a course adjustment at warp. In TNG's "The Wounded," watch when the Enterprise is escorting the Phoenix back to Federation territory. The Phoenix detects a Cardassian freighter that may have weapons aboard it. From the Enterprise's main viewer, we see the Phoenix turning and altering course.

If the Phoenix had dropped out of warp to change course, the Enterprise would have plowed into her rear end. That's assuming the viewer's angle was correct and that the Enterprise was following the Phoenix.

I'm also sure that there were other instances, but I don't recall where exactly.

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Nic: She's not a practicing lesbian. We need PRACTICING lesbians!
Me: I have a camcorder.
Nic: But no lesbians.
Me: Ahhh... no.
Nic: DAMN IT MAN! WE NEED LESBIANS! LOTS AND LOTS OF LESBIANS!

ICQ Conversation From January 23, 2001.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

We've seen the stardrive section of the E-D do a tight turn after dropping off the saucer in "Encounter at Farpoint", and that was at the maximum warp speed Picard dared try.

One might say that tight warp turns wreak havoc on ships, just like high g-forces weaken the structure of aircraft. In combat, you HAVE to pull high gee, but you are nevertheless instructed to avoid it whenever not in combat.

Starfleet could simply be teaching its helmsmen that slogan so that they would not attempt to perform tight turns unless ABSOLUTELY necessary. Perhaps a ship is ready for scrapping after 5-10 tight turns, and while it can withstand hundreds of shallower warp turns at low speeds, even this is generally discouraged.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Well since we in "Farpoint" saw the enterprise and saucer from the side I think it's safe to say that the engineering section slowed to warp one or impulse while turning, otherwise the warp streaks would've showed.

What's the turning radius of a Galaxy-class at high warp, in any case? Not 2000 meters, I would venture.

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Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

[This message has been edited by Nimrod (edited February 22, 2001).]

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

Didn't the Equinox and Voyager change cource in their 'battle'?

And how in the hell could the Prometheus split and attack that Nebula class at warp if it could not change cource??

I'm with the 'change course slightly' theory. You are travelling at enormous speeds, so you'd have a HUGE turning circle. I think Paris was hinting towards that. Since they needed to make a few very tight turns, but they also needed to travel as fast as possible they needed to drop out of warp to change cource.

------------------
Terry: "Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, ...."
Max: "And?"
Terry: "I forgot."
Max: "Come on, Clinton was the fun one, then came the boring one."
Terry: "They're all boring."

- Batman Beyond (aka: Batman of the Future)

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

The course changes that they were talking about in "The Return of Kes" episode (I can't ever remember the title) were extremely sharp and there were alot of them. I think you can *adjust* your course but you can't make sharp changes to it. Keep in mind just how much distance we're talking about covering in the time it took for the Phoenix to veer slightly off it's course, for instance. It's really a rather gentle tilt. But to essentially go through a labyrinth of spacial anomolies would be a totally different thing.

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"You don't tug on Superman's cape.
You don't spit into the wind.
You don't pull the mask off the ole' Lone Ranger
And you don't mess around with Jim."
Aban's Illustration www.alanfore.com

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Altair: The Prometheus-sections changed POSITION, and surrounded the Nebula so as to cover the best attack-angles. Their heading never changed though, all sections faced twelve o'clock.

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

[This message has been edited by Nimrod (edited February 22, 2001).]

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

TURNING AT WARP

Turning at warp is possible if you alter the warp field. If e.g the Enterprise E was 1 light year from Earth and was travelling at Warp 6 towards Earth. The ship was ordered to Vulcan at maximum warp. The ships computer would then accelerate the ship to maximum and create a slight imbalance between the nacelles e.g. lower the speed in one let's say to Warp 9.6 and the other is kept a maximum warp (9.98) The nacelle with the lower speed would then create drag, The ship would then spin on this axsis and as soon as the ship was pointing in Vulcans direction, The computer would then accelerate the lower speed nacelle to maximum and the ship would then proceed at maximum warp.

ALL THIS WOULD HAPPEN IN 5 SECONDS

Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :

No, starships DO NOT turn like tanks

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"Cry havoc and let's slip the dogs of Evil"

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Didn't the nacelles just create the warpfield, and the impulse engines did the pushing?

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by Gammera on :

No, starships DO NOT turn like tanks

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"Cry havoc and let's slip the dogs of Evil"

Oh YES THEY DO... sort of

"Bring out the holy book of armourment..."
ST:TNG Tech Manual page 85 last para on the page.

"Spacecraft manuvers are performed by intoducing controlled timing diffrences (read adjusting plasma injector firing rate) in each set of warp coils, thereby modifying the total warp field geometry and resultant ship heading."

now I'll grant you that the result change in velocity from port nacell to starboard nacell isn't more then a tenthousandth of a warp factor or else you run the risk of the "linear dissociation" talked about at the end of the section.

Posted by Shipbuilder (Member # 69) on :

Thanks for looking that up, I knew it was somewhere in the ST:TNG manual about warpflight direction changes. Maybe the little saying is exaggerated and refers to the difficulty in changing a ship's heading 'drastically' while in warp.

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

Thanks for the answer!

Nimrod: And how do think the Prometheus sections change position at warp? By changing the warp field

Another reference: The Species 8472 ship that got rammed by a Borg cube in 'Scorpion, part 2' tried to turn away when the Cube rammed it. This also happened at warp speeds.

------------------
Terry: "Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, ...."
Max: "And?"
Terry: "I forgot."
Max: "Come on, Clinton was the fun one, then came the boring one."
Terry: "They're all boring."

- Batman Beyond (aka: Batman of the Future)

Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :

Thanks people. It was really starting to bug me.

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Faster than light - no left or right.

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Altair: I'm triyng to tell you the prommie-sections strafed sideways to surround the Nebula, they never banked or tilted.
They didn't need to change their heading, they just shifted their positions with gentle thruster boosts. Shouldn't the warp fields have been intact then?

Since the manouver (vre?) was performed by the flight-computer I assume it knew exactly how much thrusting to use without sending the crafts into planets.

I haven't read any warp-books, just using common sense. If I'm wrong then I humbly apologize...

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :

So - does this summarize what we've seen?

You're treking along at warp 6 and pick up a distress call off the port side of the ship 10 minutes away (at warp 6). Your options are:

A) drop out of warp, turn to face the source of the signal, resume warp.

B) Remain in warp, turn in a long arc to reach the signal source.

I suppose which you'd choose would depend on distance, etc.

Sorry for any typos - got my eyes dilated this morning and I can't see very well.

------------------
TK

[This message has been edited by Toadkiller (edited February 22, 2001).]

Posted by Shipbuilder (Member # 69) on :

Nimrod..the Prometheus probably did use thrusters only to get some lateral separation on the Nebula, but don't look for banking or tilting to confirm a course change. Both are totally unneccessary in a vacuum and have been included in shows for dramatic purposes...unless it was used to aim a point weapon more effectively.

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

"don't look for banking or tilting to confirm a course change"

I won't, although they could pose a threat to warp field stability for non-borg ships (Scorpion, Pt I).

In any case, the Prometheus' course didn't change, so my claim still stands.

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

What about "Basics part 1"? There's at least one shot of Voyager flying along at warp while a Kazon ship flies around it, exchanging fire. The Kazon ship definetly alters orientation (if not speed. Thinking about it, if both ships were doing, say, warp 6, and one altered it's heading slightly, it'd fly off pretty quickly).

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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I don't think that thrusters are of any use at warp speeds, and that any and all course changes, however minor, are accomplished through the nacelles themselves.

It seems that whenever something is transfered to or from a warp field, special measures have to be taken to get it to work. Phasers have their special ACB 'jackets', transporters have to match up frequencies and warp speeds and probably other, more boring but no less important numbers. Adding that capability to the manuvering thrusters seems like much more trouble than it is worth, since we have already somewhat firmly established that the warp drive is what does all the pushing at warp speeds.

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I will shout until they know what I mean.
--
Neutral Milk Hotel
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Then, go insane!

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

Just realized:

The Prometheus sections probably did not change their warp fields, because that would create some very wierd 'turbulance' with four ships so close to eachother.

Sorry Nimrod!

------------------
Terry: "Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, ...."
Max: "And?"
Terry: "I forgot."
Max: "Come on, Clinton was the fun one, then came the boring one."
Terry: "They're all boring."

- Batman Beyond (aka: Batman of the Future)

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

It's ok, but I've always been bothered by that thing The Turnip brought up. If two ships fly at warp 6, and one accelerates to 6.1, it would get a mindboggingly big lead.
And if one would make a course correction they should just disappear, as they fly faster than the light reflecting them...

Something Trek vfx often never does is display the REAL relations between ships, velocities and points in space. The "warp-traveling" torpedoes, for one thing.
Even contemporary rockets fly faster than the Voyager's torpedoes.
I'm thinking of "Thirty Days", when Paris tried to liberate the waterworld. Voyager fired a torpedo that, in relation to the surface of the sea, traveled at 70mph, give or take. I could send a golfball faster than that.

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

[This message has been edited by Nimrod (edited February 23, 2001).]

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Oi, what am I missing about the word "turnip"? You used it in the Breen ship thread, too. Is this just some obssession of yours, or what? *L*

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"I am slightly disturbed that a news station in the US would use the phrase 'to the max'. What's next? CNN saying 'Totally righteous murders?' BBC News 'Dude, like people were wasted yesterday'. The Times reporting 'Iraq bombed! For Great Justice!'?"
-Liam Kavanagh, 22.Feb.2001

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

*sigh* Check the Barney-bashing thread, Shik's "Argh"-thread and the "Trek-DVD box sets" thread. Behind the curtains...

Don't think I'll let him off the hook just yet, though!
And Sol should check both sides of the road before he crosses.
"Hell hath no fury like a little turnip scorned"...

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

[This message has been edited by Nimrod (edited February 23, 2001).]

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

I actually had to explain that speed/distance thing to a friend:

When the Prometheus came out of warp by the EMH, the Federation ships entered the scene mere moments after it. But because they were at very high warp, close to warp 9.9, they could indeed be at the scene so fast.

------------------
Terry: "Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, ...."
Max: "And?"
Terry: "I forgot."
Max: "Come on, Clinton was the fun one, then came the boring one."
Terry: "They're all boring."

- Batman Beyond (aka: Batman of the Future)

Posted by hoth1701 on :

Nimrod wrote:
----------------
It's ok, but I've always been bothered by that thing The Turnip brought up. If two ships fly at warp 6, and one accelerates to 6.1, it would get a mindboggingly big lead.
And if one would make a course correction they should just disappear, as they fly faster than the light reflecting them...
------------------

You are talking about actually see the ship on a screen right? Because they got FTL sensors- I'm just wanna be sure about what you meant.

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Good. Can't be too sure.

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a turnip.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

And welcome to the forums, guy. You sound eager to participate in our discussions, that's a good sign.

I admire your courage when mixing references from both Star Trek and Star Wars in your name. It's a nice change, you don't see that every day.
Now go see if you can find something to bite down on while we get the paddles, okiedokie?

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a turnip.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

Just saw "Drive" and in that the blonde alien chick says something in the vein of "warp's fine if you like going in a straight line."

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"I rather strongly disagree, even if I share the love of Dick. Speaking of which, that would be the most embarrasing .sig quote ever, so never use it."

- Simon Sizer, 23/01/2001

Posted by Gammera on :

"Just saw "Drive" and in that the blonde alien chick says something in the vein of "warp's fine if you like going in a straight line."

Isn't that the racing episode? That makes sense that a racer would say that, but be a little inacurate, just for sarcasum sake alone. Imagine a euro-GT racer talking about drag reacing!!

Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :

I see your point. She is talking about tight maneuverability, not no turn ability. (right?)

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Faster than light - no left or right.

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

And this is different from what Paris said, how? Just thought I'd mention it since this thread popped into my mind as soon as I heard the line.

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"I rather strongly disagree, even if I share the love of Dick. Speaking of which, that would be the most embarrasing .sig quote ever, so never use it."

- Simon Sizer, 23/01/2001