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Posted by Balapoel on :
 
I'm working on deck plans for the Constellation class, IMO one of the most underated designs. I have a problem with deciding on the number of decks. Jackill gives a total of 28, which jives with the Constitution's 21 or 22. However, it's totally off base with the Intrepid's deck height. One thing is for sure, given the FF line schematics of the Constellation, it definitely is in the 306-315 range, which is equivalent with Jackill's estimate.

I already have a MSD based on the more accurate FF diagram, and have the basic outlines of all 28 decks. But I'd hate to start and find out there are only 15 decks (like some websites have estimated). Any thoughts?

Ben

------------------
Bureaucracy destroys initiative. There is little that bureaucrats hate more than innovation, especially innovation that produces better results than the old routines. Improvements always make those at the top of the heap look inept. Who enjoys appearing inept?
-A Guide to Trial and Error in Government, Bene Gesserit Archives.
 


Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
 
Well, for one thing the nacelle supports do NOT have decks -- they're too small. So at 315 meters (the length according to Bernd) it should be 11 decks.

EDIT: I turned this into a link, since the image is obviously too big for one page. Sorry for the inconvenience.
http://www.st-minutiae.com/graphics/c_constellation_5.jpg

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You know, you really should keep a personal log. Why bore others needlessly?
The Gigantic Collection of Star Trek Minutiae

[This message has been edited by MinutiaeMan (edited March 05, 2001).]
 


Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
The Fantastic Four do starship schematics now? Surely they're too busy saving the world from evil and shit? Although Reed could probably knock up a few new starship designs during a lunch break.

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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles
 


Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :
 
That was cheese. I'd even go so far as to say in a can. In a can. There.

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"This is such an amazingly minor complaint. Does anyone actually watch episodes anymore, or is it just a notebook + pause button exercise these days?"
-Sol System on what constitutes modern day Star Trek watching, 02-22-01


 


Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
 
There you go -- a much clearer schematic to check out. Not the fanciest, but pretty good IMNSHO.

------------------
You know, you really should keep a personal log. Why bore others needlessly?
The Gigantic Collection of Star Trek Minutiae

 


Posted by Balapoel on :
 
Actually, the supports are large enough to contain compartments, especially with the photon torpedo launchers on the highest and lowest decks. Here is the base for my MSD - it is Jackill's decks re-aligned with the FF corrected outer hull outline.

http://flareupload.hypermart.net/files/Constellation_msd2.gif

Ben

------------------
Bureaucracy destroys initiative. There is little that bureaucrats hate more than innovation, especially innovation that produces better results than the old routines. Improvements always make those at the top of the heap look inept. Who enjoys appearing inept?
-A Guide to Trial and Error in Government, Bene Gesserit Archives.
 


Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
Er, is it supposed to be that hazy?

I'd also conclude that the pylons transport torpedoes to the launchers.
I had a dream before, a short 3d-movie showing the constellation firing from all four launchers, in the same speed as scott's salvo in ST:III. It would make for, like, 8 torpedoes per second. In other words, a damn gunship!! And with the updated photon-torp's of 2376, it'd be nifty, even though the hull probably is wafer-thin compared to, say, a Defiant.

But since the constellation was a science-vessel the launchers were probably configured to eject probes and stuff... The crazed Jean-Luc never fired torpedoes in "The Ship", did he? Hmph!

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His turnip not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram



 


Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
Er -- do you mean "The Battle"?

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.27 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with four eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
****
"The candidate who slimed John McCain in the primaries and smeared Al Gore in the general election is now the president who pledges to elevate the nation's tone and bring civility to our discorse. Kind of like Michael Corleone brought peace to the mob by killing the heads of the other four families."
--Paul Begala, Is Our Children Learning?


 


Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
Yep, that too.
 
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
Looks pretty groovy. 28 decks just seems like too many for a ship that size though. How many decks did the Ent-nil have?

------------------
"You don't tug on Superman's cape.
You don't spit into the wind.
You don't pull the mask off the ole' Lone Ranger
And you don't mess around with Jim."
Aban's Illustration www.alanfore.com


 


Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
Both the original and the refit Constitution-Class starships had 22 decks, I believe.

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.27 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with four eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
****
"The candidate who slimed John McCain in the primaries and smeared Al Gore in the general election is now the president who pledges to elevate the nation's tone and bring civility to our discorse. Kind of like Michael Corleone brought peace to the mob by killing the heads of the other four families."
--Paul Begala, Is Our Children Learning?


 


Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
Well, if a Connie has 22 decks with the secondary hull, I would think that the Constitution would have less than that. I know it's a thicker saucer, but there's no sec. hull. I'd say 15 decks tops.

------------------
"You don't tug on Superman's cape.
You don't spit into the wind.
You don't pull the mask off the ole' Lone Ranger
And you don't mess around with Jim."
Aban's Illustration www.alanfore.com


 


Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
 
Um...I don't think there's 4 torp tubes. I think there's only 2, at the base of the lower pylon. Can't ever remember seeing dorsal tubes ever.

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"Gee, the public whipping didn't quite convey their fascist culture, I need something more straightforward. Ah, leather hats!" --Nimrod, on National Socialism fashion design.
 


Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
 
My schematic is based on Bernd's external side view -- I took the outline and filled it in. The estimated length is 315 meters for the whole ship, based (I think) on comparisons with the Enterprise-D. We come up with a figure of 11 or 12 decks, assuming a deck height of 3.5 meters.

------------------
You know, you really should keep a personal log. Why bore others needlessly?
The Gigantic Collection of Star Trek Minutiae

 


Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
Actually, I don't remember *ever* seeing definitive proof of torpedo tubes on a Constellation. Does anyone have model pictures to that effect?

Mark

------------------
"Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?"

- Carl Sagan, "Contact"



 


Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
 
Balapoel: About your MSD... It can't work as is. The top and bottom of the main hull are Constitution-refit parts, scaled appropriately. Therefore, there should only be five decks above the laminar hull, not six. And an equivalent number below (with or without an occupiable deck structure on the lowest level). The decks are just slightly too squished, vertically. I know about the problem with the windows in the laminar section, so don't point that out. One just has to start with the known quantities -- in this case the E-refit saucer pieces -- and interpolate from there.

As for torpedo capacity... There are quite a few structures that could serve as launchers, but none has ever been definitively identified.

--Jonah

------------------
"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH


 


Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
 
Nimrod: What do you mean "Scott's salvo in Star Trek III"? They fired one torp at Kruge's BoP. Or do you mean VI?

--Jonah

------------------
"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH


 


Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
Scott fired two torpedoes from their right muzzle, in 1/2 second, so the two muzzles could fire four torpedoes per second IF it was properly loaded, but we all know Starfleet vessels hate to waste ammo.

The Constellation class has two official hardpoints, with two barrels each, making for four launchers. If it could be modified in modern Trek it'd be a formidable gunship, firing eight torpedoes per second, machinegun-rate. the magazines would run short very fast at their current size, but if they really cared they could modify that too.

These pics help.
http://flareupload.hypermart.net/files/Valkyrie1.jpg

http://flareupload.hypermart.net/files/valkyrie2.jpg

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His turnip not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

[This message has been edited by Nimrod (edited March 05, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Nimrod (edited March 05, 2001).]
 


Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
Might as well give you the other two of the set.
http://flareupload.hypermart.net/files/valk1l.jpg
http://flareupload.hypermart.net/files/valk5l.jpg

As I understand it this is the official model of the USS Valkyrie, the wiring is going into her behind at that last pic.
You can also see the nice "Transformer"-like toys glued to the bottom of the saucer, one humanoid-looking and one "mech". I don't think they were added in the commercial models released to the public.

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His turnip not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram



 


Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
 
Huh... Those do indeed look like torpedo launchers. Though the scale seems a bit wrong, and I still think that the nacelle supports are too thin for any real equipment there, aside from power conduits, etc. The "neck" looks even thinner than the one on the Constitution Refit.

------------------
You know, you really should keep a personal log. Why bore others needlessly?
The Gigantic Collection of Star Trek Minutiae

 


Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
Well it didn't need to support a large engineering hull any longer.

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His turnip not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram



 


Posted by Balapoel on :
 
Thanks for your discussion, guys.

I've posted a couple of images to further explain myself. The first is:
http://flareupload.hypermart.net/files/c-ccompar.jpg

This is a palimpset of the Constitution and Constellation in scale, coinciding with with the upper leading edge of the saucer section - therefore in sync. Notice that the upper constellation saucer is not identical with the constitution -hence the extra deck. Second, the Constellation hull is quite a bit thicker than the constitution. All in all, if we consider the decks the same, there are about 16-17 decks in the Constellation saucer section. BTW, isn't Jackill's work wonderfu?. I've done the same superposition with the excelsior, miranda, and oberth. Good stuff, but unfortunately not in similar to the Intrepid with it's huge deck heights. (has anyone compared the Intrepid's height and 15 decks with the Sovereigns height and 24+?)

The second image is: http://flareupload.hypermart.net/files/smalldecks.jpg

Here you can see my breakdown of each deck. These cutaways were developed from the FF schematics, the most accurate to date. You can see that the connecting dorsal, while not as large as the constitution, is still large enough to contain rooms as well as conduits. Technically speaking, the pylons are that last deck, the 'wings' leading to the nacelles.

Any thoughts, based on this? Remember, we still have to deal with the basic problem of the early deck heights versus the later (i.e.: constitution, excelsior vs. intrepid and defiant).

Ben

------------------
Bureaucracy destroys initiative. There is little that bureaucrats hate more than innovation, especially innovation that produces better results than the old routines. Improvements always make those at the top of the heap look inept. Who enjoys appearing inept?
-A Guide to Trial and Error in Government, Bene Gesserit Archives.
 


Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
 
Cool comparison chart. It seems I have to correct the size to 302m.

The bad thing about the Constellation design is that -once again- someone moved the window rows too close to each other. We have the same problem on the Oberth and the Excelsior too. It seems those artists don't like equal spacing because it looks too technical, so they take the freedom to tamper with it.

Anyway, given the corresponding parts of Constellation and Constitution, it would give us four decks in the saucer rim and 11 or 12 altogether, like in Dan's MSD.

------------------
"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
Ex Astris Scientia

 


Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
It still bothers me that the uppermost decks in the FF schematic seem grossly exaggerated. Based on the Valkyrie pic that shows the topside of the ship (Valkyrie1.jpg), the only difference between a Constitution-refit bridge and a Constellation one is that the latter omits the aft airlock/docking port and introduces a circular thingamabob atop the dome. The "fundament" of the bridge is not different, certainly not two decks higher than the Constitution one.

Otherwise, the FF structure seems good to me, even though it's apparently not 100% accurate, either (the shapes of the Constitution-derived impulse decks are not exact, for example). Ben's internal layout makes sense, too.

One thing that might affect this is the official MSD of the Hathaway visible in "Peak Performance" (done in the "Enterprise-B" style, complete with sadly unreadable labels). I've got a fuzzy screencap of it, but my FTP connection is acting up so I can't reach it at the moment (my password has NOT expired, you stupid machine!).

The non-deck-aligned portholes on the saucer rim could be taken as an indication that a special compartment similar to the two-storey rec deck of the Constitutions encircles the whole primary hull. Given the multitude of shuttlebays and cargo bays on the rim, this wouldn't be all that impossible to believe.

Timo Saloniemi

 


Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
Umm, forget about that MSD screencap I advertised. It's way too fuzzy to be of use. And I think it's off-focus throughout the episode. Anybody have a decent 'cap of it?

Timo Saloniemi
 


Posted by Balapoel on :
 
Timo: if you have that screencap, I'd like to see it, even if it's fuzzy.

I think we need to evaluate something.
(1) if we agree that the constitution decks (per Jackill) are accurate;
(2) if we agree that the size comparison is accurate (per Jackil);

Then, there are 16 decks in the Constellation saucer (because the deck heights are identical between the two ships). Add to that the 'decks' in the connecting dorsal and ventral, that leaves 28 (12 more). Someone mentioned 15 decks or so in an earlier post. This jives with the evidence cited above. Sure those other decks are quite small, but they are still decks. And regarding windows, this hypothesis does have the added benefit of fitting the model windows perfectly.

Ben

------------------
Ripley: When we throw the switches, how long before the ship blows?
Parker: Ten minutes.
Ripley: No bullshit?
Parker: If we ain't outta here in ten minutes, we won't need no rocket to fly through space.

Alien (1979)
 


Posted by Balapoel on :
 
If you guys are interested, I could post a comparison between the schem we know and love (Jackill's) and the FF/MAG version. There are quite a few differences, but the overall outer hull outlines are remarkably consistent. It's amazing what Erik was able to do without access to the original model.

Ben

------------------
Ripley: When we throw the switches, how long before the ship blows?
Parker: Ten minutes.
Ripley: No bullshit?
Parker: If we ain't outta here in ten minutes, we won't need no rocket to fly through space.

Alien (1979)
 


Posted by dih1138 on :
 
How would one come accross these Star Trek Fact Files?

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-dih1138
 


Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
I'll tell if somebody tells me how to use this flareupload thingy. It's been told and retold numerous times in the recent past, but I can't find a single one of those references just now.

Anyway, to get the Fact Files, you have to move across the Atlantic, since they are only to be found in Europe. Please take with you all the ST Magazines you can carry, since they appear to be superior publications to these Fact Files... And are in turn not available here.

Timo Saloniemi
 


Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
Timo,

Look in "Officer's Lounge" under "Upload...?"

It is fairly recent.

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.27 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with four eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
****
"The candidate who slimed John McCain in the primaries and smeared Al Gore in the general election is now the president who pledges to elevate the nation's tone and bring civility to our discorse. Kind of like Michael Corleone brought peace to the mob by killing the heads of the other four families."
--Paul Begala, Is Our Children Learning?


[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited March 07, 2001).]
 


Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
Okay, so now the fuzzy Hathaway MSD should be at http://flareupload.hypermart.net/files/Hathaway.jpg or thereabouts. All one can see is that there's plenty of detail there, carefully labeled and forever out of our reach...

Timo Saloniemi
 


Posted by Balapoel on :
 
Thanks Timo.

I wonder what they do with the old LCARS after they're done with them. They may still be around somewhere. It's kinda hard to dress up an ol' constellation msd like they did the defiant bridge on voyager. Do you remember if the Hathaway had a top view like the Excelsior in STVI?

Ben

------------------
Ripley: When we throw the switches, how long before the ship blows?
Parker: Ten minutes.
Ripley: No bullshit?
Parker: If we ain't outta here in ten minutes, we won't need no rocket to fly through space.

Alien (1979)
 


Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
No top view IIRC. The MSD representation was rather large and filled a good portion of the display screen of Geordi's station.

I do hope a secret cache of old Okudagrams is one day found and printed in its entirety, so that Paramount can get lots and lots of cash from all the people who want a copy (you listening up there?).

Timo Saloniemi
 


Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Okuda has made some vague comments about that possibility, hasn't he? Of course, Pocket Books appears to have abandoned the reference book market, such as it is.

------------------
I will shout until they know what I mean.
--
Neutral Milk Hotel
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Then, go insane!



 




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