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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
I think everyone here is very tired of hearing this argument rehashed over and over again. I personally never heard of it, but the complaints from other get the point across. Of course, I might be mistaken and other will welcome this intriguing point of discussion.
Mark
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"Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?"
- Carl Sagan, "Contact"
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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
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"Although, from what I understand, having travelled around the Mid-west quite a bit, apparently Jesus is coming, so I guess the choice now is we should decide whether we should spit or swallow."
-Maynard James Keenan
Having a whole borg cube to fire upon, with backup and support all arund you, would've made me deplete my magazines, if I'd been at tactical.
But of course, that would've stolen the Enterprise's thunder, never underestimate the importance of highlighting the 1701!
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Don't kill me, I'm charming!
Mark
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"Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?"
- Carl Sagan, "Contact"
--jacob
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"Hi, my name's Locutus, and I'll be your assimilator tonight. Can I interest you in our specials? Super. Well, currently we're offering an arm-replacement tool with extra wiggly-waggly bits on, or, for the more daring among you, not one but two ocular replacements! Terrific. You want fries with that? Ohh, I'm sorry, I've just heard from the chef that fries are off - they're irrelevant, apparently."
-Vogon Poet, March 13, 2001
I would like to take this moment to say that I could, as I have on other occasions, be wrong about this.
The DS9 Tech Manual's ship info isn't exactly taken very well, and has often been the subject of many arguments.
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"Let me ask you something, Mr. Garibaldi, a purely philosophical question. On a scale of 1 to 10, how stupid do you think I am anyway?" - Bester
Federation Starship Datalink: Brand new look, fresh minty scent, same great taste!
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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
Andrew
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Homer: I'm gonna miss Springfield. This town's been awfully good to us.
Bart: No, it hasn't, Dad. That's why we're leaving.
Homer: Oh, yeah. [pokes his head out the window] So long, Stinktown!
[This message has been edited by AndrewR (edited April 30, 2001).]
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Signature for sale! For a mere price of $20 per letter you get this wonderful little space to say your own things. Get it now while there's still space!
-All you base belong to infinity. -infinity11
It's all well and good to express personal distaste in a design, or even general disagreement with the direction taken by a particular designer, but insulting the designer is not going to win you any friends. Particularly not with anyone involved in the creative process.
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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
I'm of the opinion that if the Akira has all this combat stuff, there just ain't enough room left over for all that scientific stuff - which is the very reason we didn't see any of them through TNG.
Mark
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"Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?"
- Carl Sagan, "Contact"
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"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism."
-Eleanor Arroway, "Contact" by Carl Sagan
------------------
"Let me ask you something, Mr. Garibaldi, a purely philosophical question. On a scale of 1 to 10, how stupid do you think I am anyway?" - Bester
Federation Starship Datalink: Brand new look, fresh minty scent, same great taste!
The Borg. The Borg caused it. Maybe these ships are purely combat vessels - i.e. the Akira, Sabre, Steamrunner and Norway. The appearence of the Defiant may help in explaining this...
OK we might have had something like this:
Cardassian Wars - the Federation starts to create war-dedicated ships. The Akira and the Steamrunner are rolled of the assembly line.
End of Cardassian War outright conflict. Akira's Steamrunners and other 'dedicated to conflict' ships are retired and stored away.
then...
Borg encountered.
Several new 'weapons' are designed after the Enterprise encounter with a Cube in System J25.
The Defiant, the Sabre and the Norway are created.
Borg reach the Federation and penetrate the Terran system. New ships aren't ready for deployment.
Borg cube destroyed by Enterprise above earth orbit.
Federation decide to finish at least two of Each of the Defiant, Sabre and Norway class ships, to at least some semblence of operation.
The Federation encounter the hostility of the Dominion... the Odyssey destroyed.
DS9 upgrade commenced. Defiant taken out of mothballs by Commander Sisko, and taken to DS9. Miles O'Brien brings the Defiant into working order. His notes are passed on to The Starfleet Core of Engineers, and they are ordered to begin the alterations to the remaining Defiant Class ships along with the Sabres and Norways.
Norways prove to be more time consuming compared to Defiant and Sabres...
Dominion War threat looming. Changelings throughout the Federation. Klingon Hostilities. The war-dedicated ships like the Akiras and Steamrunners, (along with the finishing upgrades on new Sabres, Defiants and the remaining Norways) are brought out of retirement and upgraded to current performance standards. I.e. refit of majority of systems, using Sovereign development and Defiant refitting as a blueprint. (Evidence seen during "Relativity" [VOY]
First refit Akira's and Steamrunner's roll out. Looking different to when they originally appeared during the Cardassian Wars. They are ready to take on the Borg, the Dominion, the Cardassians and the Klingons.
Dominion War immenent. Retired starships are purged for useful parts. New - and old designs combined to provide more numbers of ships. These ships crews take to their hybrid sisters fondly.
------------------
Homer: I'm gonna miss Springfield. This town's been awfully good to us.
Bart: No, it hasn't, Dad. That's why we're leaving.
Homer: Oh, yeah. [pokes his head out the window] So long, Stinktown!
Megawarships just didn't exist before 2363.
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"I can be creative when I have a good idea. That just happens way too rarely."
-Omega, April 6
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"Cry havoc and let's slip the dogs of Evil"
quote:
Megawarships just didn't exist before 2363.
This could be true, if you don't count tha Akira as a battleship. I still think the sideways firing tubes are actually just windows. And disregarding the 15 tubes mentioned, I think the Akira only got a weapons-pod upgrade after the End-D Borg encounter.
The Defiant class are warships, that's for sure. And I also nominate the Prometheus class as a warship as well, given it's overall design features and the "... designed for deep-space tactical assignment" statement.
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"We have a good arrangement. He supplies the weapons, I use them."
- Blade
Looking at the Akira, Steamrunner, Sabre and Norway classes, I'd consider them to be older vessels (20 years or more?), possibly upgraded to present weaponry standards (and quite possibly not).
They don't seem to match the present design philosophy of Starfleet - even though their weapons and escape systems might be updated.
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Faster than light - no left or right.
The_Evil_Lord: You can also see it this way: basically ALL Federation ships WERE warships. Starfleet might have said that their primary mission is exploration, but that's just propaganda, everyone knows their real job is to ensure the safety of the Federation. Don't think that those soft looking Starfleet people will let science and discovery stand in the way of them protecting their homeland and people.
I haven't really noticed warp cores getting any smaller. Voyager's core is pretty normal for a ship her size, and Defiant's was oversized (look at the size of the M/AM reaction chamber instead of the magnetic constrictors).
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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
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Don't kill me, I'm charming!
------------------
Wes Button � [email protected]
TechFX Studios � The United Federation Uplink �
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I don't like Wesley Crusher.
Mark
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"Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?"
- Carl Sagan, "Contact"
------------------
"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
------------------
Wes Button � [email protected]
TechFX Studios � The United Federation Uplink �
------------------
I don't like Wesley Crusher.
Looking at the Akira, Steamrunner, Sabre and Norway classes, I'd consider them to be older vessels (20 years or more?), possibly upgraded to present weaponry standards (and quite possibly not).
They don't seem to match the present design philosophy of Starfleet - even though their weapons and escape systems might be updated.
Umm, the reason why they look like the way they were is simply because a single outsider---Alex Jaeger of Industrial Light and Magic---designed all four of them. I won't consider them old actually. They were inspired and were meant as replacements of the Miranda class, ironically an earlier ILM design as well. The AJ-FC ships had a different mindset---essentially looking for an anti-Borg warship---based on the concepts laid by the Defiant. Like the Defiant, the idea behind them was to look simply different.
This is in contrast to the TV designed ships, which are done within Paramount itself and staff directly working on the TV show. This staff, like John Eaves and Rick Sternbach, is more or less acquianted with a better sense of technological and styling continuity. Looking for designs that can span both from the Enterprise E and Voyager, two of the most recent designs are the Prometheus and Nova classes. Even if the Prometheus has a radical concept, you can see from its design that it has a much greater styling continuity from ships like the Sovereign and Intrepid. The Steamrunner could look like it came out from Star Wars, but the Promie looks very recognizably Trek.
This is my short story about the Akira, Sabre, Norway and Steamrunner classes okay? This is highly speculative, but it's up to you if it makes good sense.
Basically after Wolf 359, the inadequecies of Starfleet's mainstream classes became apparent. These includes the Niagara, New Orleans, Constellation and Cheyenne classes. The Starfleet is also ripe for a Miranda replacement. It's not just the Borg, but the sudden reappearance of the Romulans, whose Warbirds could get the handle of even the Galaxy classes; the war with the Cardassians and instability within the Klingon Empire---all combined to up the specs for a new multirole warship with better military capabilities. The result is the Akira.
The Sabre/Defiant/Steamrunner/Norway came from another development---the powerful pulse phaser cannon. While Starfleet is basically shopping for an anti-Borg warship, it's also shopping for a Miranda replacement.
So the Defiant is made with pulse phaser cannons. But the technology is new, and there are questions whether these cannons can be made fast enough, and with the limited firing arc of these weapons. So Starfleet wanted an alternative design about the same physical size and crew size, with about the same performance level but using more conventional phaser strips. The result is the Sabre. If you look at any close diagrams of the Sabre, it has phaser strips.
Looking to apply pulse phaser cannon on a larger ship meant as a Miranda replacement, the result is the Norway class. If you look at the models or closeup of the Norway, it does not use phaser strips. Instead it's got this big phaser cannon on the nose, which has to be pulse phasers. But again for the same reason why they brought out the Sabre, Starfleet wanted an alternative using conventional phaser strips. The result of that was the Steamrunner. Yes, you can see from the closeups and diagrams of the Steamrunner that it does use conventional phaser strips.
Production problems encountered with the pulse phasers led to the commissioning of the Sabre and Steamrunner classes. Since the supply of pulse phasers are limited, the Defiant and Norway hulls have to compete for them. With greater production emphasis going for the Defiant class, production numbers for the Norway became limited. The Miranda replacement role was increasingly grabbed by the Steamrunners. With pulse phasers limited, a number of Norways had to come out using conventional phasers---but without a strip, their arcs are more limited, decreasing their tactical value not to mention their firepower. So Starfleet did not commission a lot of Norways, and the bulk of that role was taken with the more popular Steamrunners.
One thing that made the Defiant such an inherently tough craft---even if ablative armor is not installed---is that the structure is very well armored and shielded to protect the crew from the effects of the warp nacelles built right into its structure. The same philosophy is applied on the Steamrunner. That same extreme reinforcement, shielding and armor designed to protect the crew from the effects of the nacelles and Bussard collectors, also made the Steamrunner a very tough craft to destroy in battle. This ruggedness makes the Steamrunner popular with its crews, even though its interior space is limited.
Given these advantages, the Steamrunner has a stronger edge for being the Miranda replacement for Starfleet. But as production of pulse phasers eases, its problems resolved, there is once again a renewed interest for a pulse phaser equipped warship in the Miranda slot (the 300m-350m size class.) This maybe what it takes to resurrect the Norway class.
The Akira class was built in the 2350's along with the the Galaxy and Nebula classes. The Galaxy class as the explorer and the Nebula class as the supplement for the Galaxy class. The Akira class is the battleship version where it would protect the Federation. The Akira class at this time had parts that resembled the Galaxy class parts, necelles, escape pods, bridge, etc. However before Wolf 359, Starfleet brought in a few Akiras to fit them as large torfp platforms. This basically is that the ships would launch a massive torpedo attack in which hopefully the Borg wouldn't be quick enough to adapt to the large volley and destroy or severely damage the ship. However they weren't ready for Wolf 359, so afterwards these ships were completed and let back into service. Later however a basic refit for the class which was to replace the escape pods, nacelles, bridge with the latest designs from the Sovereign class.
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The whole concept of Survivor is that nameless adults go at each other and try to outwit each other. In reality after the first episode of the show, each one will make a least over a thousand dollars for making appearences on some talk show. The first survivor, the Gay Guy now works at E.T. as a Survivor Consultent, where he gives advice to the new survivors. Not only did he win a million dollars that he now makes twice as much as what most of us make in 5 years.
I highly doubt that hes gay, made his own son run, and walk naked around the site. It was all tactics to get him win a million dollars. Right now I bet hes fucking some girl. Jerry from the second Survivro is something because everyone talks alot about her. The whole concept of Surivivor sucks, and it should end with the second one.
The Akira class at this time had parts that resembled the Galaxy class parts, necelles, escape pods, bridge, etc.
---
A lot of Starfleet ships use similar designs for components such as nacelles, escape pods, bridge, etc.
However before Wolf 359, Starfleet brought in a few Akiras to fit them as large torfp platforms. This basically is that the ships would launch a massive torpedo attack in which hopefully the Borg wouldn't be quick enough to adapt to the large volley and destroy or severely damage the ship.
---
Once the Borg adapted to a weapon once, it's supposedly useless no matter how much you throw at them. Of course, from VOY and ST:FC, you'd think different. ^_^''''
However they weren't ready for Wolf 359, so afterwards these ships were completed and let back into service. Later however a basic refit for the class which was to replace the escape pods, nacelles, bridge with the latest designs from the Sovereign class.
---
Reworking existing ships with different escape pods and nacelles seems like a waste of time. Especially if you have to rework the hull to accomindate the EP, which can come in square (if you go by the assumption that's the standard) to the newer hexegon(?). If you rework the nacelle, you might need to restudy the ship's warp field geometry and so on. O_o
I really think the Akira came after Wolf 359. The NCC number dating system isn't known for its reliability. How old would the Soverign class be, since one of its ships has a 1701? ^_~
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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
The 15 torpedo tubes still does not make sense. Just remember that Jaeger who designed the Akira is an outsider to Trek. He may like Trek, but he's not one of the nuts and bolts people who maintains a good pulse on continuity and Treknology like Eaves or Sternbach. The guy is doing a lot of work for many other movies and shows including Star Wars. I have never seen an Akira fire a massive burst of torpedoes. It also seems that ships of this era has rapid loading and firing tubes, which can make having a lot of tubes obsolete.
How do we justify this in Star Trek? I like the "single-burst" tube idea presented. If we go by the registry number, perhaps this ship was in use at the Cardassian War and fought along side the Ambassador...their nacelles share a somewhat resemblance...
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Ace
"Objects in mirror are closer than they appear."
No, the Borg can adapt to the weapon, but the overwelming firepower of hundreds of torps firing at a cube is devestating no matter how well adapted the ship is. In ST FC, the Starfleet fleet fired at one spot that was damaged this overwelming the Borg's defense systems and setroying the ship.
Replacing escape pods isn't that bad, in fact those escape pods appear to be about the same size. The reason to replace them? Better survivibility, better propulsion, etc.
Replacing the warp nacelles all isn't that bad either. Replacing faulty nacelles or just to make the ship faster is a reason.
The Akira being a battleship without the 15 torpedo tubes works. The ship could have better manuverability with better shielding, heavier armor, and possibily more powerful phasers.
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The whole concept of Survivor is get your average Joe and put him/her on the show and see how they react. Afterwards even though they did not win they make money by appearing on shows. There is no point in having to win a million dollars! They will make that amount in 2 months after appearing on 100 different shows!
[This message has been edited by Matrix (edited May 14, 2001).]
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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
I was thinking that the ILM guy may have temporarily confused his Akira specs to some Mon Calamari carrier or something.
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OH NO< THE OLD MAN WALKS HIS GREEN DOG THAT SHOTS PINBALLS!~!!!
--
Jeff K
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet" and nothing at all will happen.
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Don't kill me, I'm charming!
There really should be more than a "if you are taller than this sign" limitation to calling a ship "battleship". If it's not superb armor in Trek era, then at least some roughly comparable distinctive feature.
Timo Saloniemi
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Faster than light - no left or right.
However there is a problem in Trek. We don't know how powerful these ships really are. All we see is the most powerful ship (E-D, E-E and Prometheus) get hit by a couple of shots and they're smoking. Also currently as I see it, the war between offensiver and defensive systems, is that any defensive systems any ship has is no match for the latest weapons. For example those flying targets Starfleet calls Mirandas and Excelsiors had their hulls literally disengrating plus disabled by one shot.
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The whole concept of Survivor is get your average Joe and put him/her on the show and see how they react. Afterwards even though they did not win they make money by appearing on shows. There is no point in having to win a million dollars! They will make that amount in 2 months after appearing on 100 different shows!
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Never give up. Never surrender.
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Access Password
47at
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/9268/index.html
Hey, Miranda and Excelsiors are the true work horses of the Federation. Don't mock them! Sure they explode quite often, but we see a lot of other newer ships go up in flame, too. Only reason we don't see more of that is because they don't show as many of the newer classes. Besides, it's not like they follow a single Miranda or Excelsior around, showing every moment it's in combat. They just show you a few seconds before, during, and after they blow up. You don't know exactly how much punishment they have taken already.
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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
No armor but heavy guns sounds like your typical Trek ship. But I'm a battleship person when I have a choice betwen a battlecruiser or a slow battleship, I'll take a battleship any day unless you have a more powerful battleship than me.
Those three designations are seperate, they are meant to be seperate its either one or the other not all. For the Akira I'll go for: Heavily Armed Torpedo Cruiser.
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The whole concept of Survivor is get your average Joe and put him/her on the show and see how they react. Afterwards even though they did not win they make money by appearing on shows. There is no point in having to win a million dollars! They will make that amount in 2 months after appearing on 100 different shows!
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Access Password
47at
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/9268/index.html
[This message has been edited by bear (edited May 16, 2001).]
Lutzow had bad luck. Graf Spee was caught but had a good run. The Scheer had quite a lucky run and survived the war. Let's not forget that the battlecruisers Schwarnhorst and Gneisnau wre probably the most successful of their type given the damage they caused to the British, including ambushing a carrier.
Until the advent of patrols, battlecruisers were quite effective in deep enemy territory operations. But eventually though, it turns out that submarines could accomplish the same job for a lower cost.
I would speculate that if Star Trek wars are fought in more practical and realistic assumptions, the brunt of the battles would be carried by massed formation of ships from the 100m to 350m class. Based on the game Dominion Wars, it would be termed as Class 1 and Class 2 ships. In the English language, that would be your Escort, Frigate, Scout, and Destroyer classes, covering the gamut of ships from the Bird of Prey, the Defiant, the Sabre to the Steamrunner, Norway and Intrepid classes. This would be most modern naval wars where the brunt of action were carried by destroyers and frigates including World War II.
There are value in the two extremes in a Trek environment---large super capital ships and massed formations of strike fighters from carriers, but it would be the smaller middle ships that would take the brunt of fighting and dying in a war.
Remember in the scene in FC there is an Akira on the top right hand corner and:
- fires 5 torpedoes from just above the deflector,
- fires these torpedoes in RAPID FIRE MODE.
Assuming that these are indeed single fire torpedo launchers, and suppose there are, say 5 torpedo launchers just above the deflector dish, this COULD explain the rapid firing from this Akira.
The Akira is a great looking ship from the outside. That thing was a beaut first time I saw it.
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"Intelligence People. You guys are unbelievable. You dump a mess like this (that you created) on my lap, and then you come to me whining "Where is our funding"? Well I'll tell you where your funding is. Can you say Health-Care"
- The President of the United States of America, The Long Kiss Goodnight
Timo: Your criteria for battleship status is a bit high, I think.
Firstly, battlecruisers have even been known to be as small as the old K'Tingas. If the range of battlecruiser sizes can vary so, why couldn't that of battleships?
If I may compare with WWII battleships, the italian Vittorio class and the US South Dakota class were both much smaller and lighter ships than the Iowa class or Yamato class, but they were all battleships.
And the considerable size/mass difference between the Vor'Cha and the Negh'Var is IMO well enough to grant the Negh battleship status. It's also a very slow ship, indicating that they rather rely on shielding, armor and strong weapons than impulse engines.
Despite the fact that the mirror Defiant had stronger phasers than any contemporary ship that ever took on the emperor's flagship, other ships of the same size has fared worse, for instance the romulan D'Deridex.
One of those got whammed pretty good when strafing the cardassian sentry gun network. It didn't look at all harmed just prior to the final volleys that made it lose stabilizers and start spinning out of control.
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"Babies haven't any hair;
old men's heads are just as bare;
between the cradle and the grave
lies a haircut and a shave."
Samuel Hoffenstein
Galaxy: Battlecruiser/Command Cruiser
Sovereign: Battleship
Neh'Var: Battleship
Vorcha: Battlecruiser
D'Deridex: Battlecruiser
Galor: Heavy Cruiser
Jemmie Battlecruiser: Battlecruiser (no duh)
Jemmie Battleship: Battleship (no duh again)
For ships you don't go by size but the amount of armor and armament, plus speed. You can have a ship 80 miles long but have no weapons or armament, is that a battleship?
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The whole concept of Survivor is get your average Joe and put him/her on the show and see how they react. Afterwards even though they did not win they make money by appearing on shows. There is no point in having to win a million dollars! They will make that amount in 2 months after appearing on 100 different shows!
D'Deridex a battlecruiser? That's nearly twice as big as a Galaxy.
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Access Password
47at
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/9268/index.html
[This message has been edited by bear (edited May 17, 2001).]
The Deutschland class wasn't as fast as a cruiser, but it was definitely better armored and better gunned than Allied cruisers which only had 8 inchers. German cannons tend to be ballistically superior over an equivalent Allied cannon.
There was one cruiser that actually outweighted and even outarmored the Deutschland class and that was the Prinz Eugen. But it was still classed as a heavy cruiser.
if we're comparing modern ships against Star Trek ship, then yes, there are very specific guide lines for different type of ships that are used by navies across the world today (battleship, battlecruiser).
For example, check the Washington treaty for the specific guidelines lay out for battleships.
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What is the difference between a terriorist and your girlfriend?
- With terrorist, there is a chance of negotiation.
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"And as it is, it is cheaper than drinking."
-DT on arguing with Omega, April 30
Galaxy, Nebula: very heavy cruiser
Sovereign, Ambassador, Akira, Excelsior etc: heavy cruiser
Miranda and size-mates: destroyer
Negh'Var: very heavy cruiser or battlecruiser
Vor'Cha: heavy cruiser
K't'inga: destroyer
Small BoB: corvette, PT boat
D'eridex: very heavy cruiser or "pocket battleship"
Galor: destroyer, or perhaps light cruiser
Jemmie attack ship: PT boat
Jemmie warships: cruiser, heavy cruiser
Jemmie battleship: battleship (the first ship in Trek with a big enough quantitative difference from the usual cruisers, if not a qualitative difference)
Borg ship: forget it, there's only so much one can do with WWII analogies. The closest thing would probably be mainland Japan.
Typical TOS adversary ship: cruiser (matches the heroes)
Typical TNG adversary ship: destroyer (outgunned by heroes)
Typical Voyager adversary ship: heavy cruiser (outguns heroes)
Timo Saloniemi
However, I suppose there is some 'universal' way of classification that never really changes over time: a ship is designated 'destroyer', 'cruiser', 'heavy cruiser' et all, based on a combination of factors (never just a single one) - armament, defensive abilities, speed, and whatnot. Obviously these designations differ per race/culture, which is why Galor-class ships were labelled 'destroyers' by Sisko/Starfleet in Sacrifice of Angels, while the Cardassians themselves considered them (battle-)cruisers.
In the 23rd century K'tinga's were called 'battlecruisers' because at the time, their configuration warranted such a description. But as starships 'got better', that designation became obsolete - they might now be referred to as 'destroyers' or even 'frigates'.
(Best example of this btw would be the Defiant - officially an 'escort' (whatever that might be), unofficially a warship (again, whatever that might be) with firepower that could fit the 'battleship' category, speed & maneuverability that would not be out of place in the 'destroyer' range...)
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"Cry havoc and let's slip the dogs of Evil"
[This message has been edited by The_Evil_Lord (edited May 18, 2001).]
------------------
"Babies haven't any hair;
old men's heads are just as bare;
between the cradle and the grave
lies a haircut and a shave."
Samuel Hoffenstein
------------------
Wes Button � [email protected]
TechFX Studios � The United Federation Uplink �
------------------
I don't like Wesley Crusher.
The modern classifications are known to most. The modern cuiser was orginally called a frigate from 1700-1800's hopwever the French called it a cruiser. Somehom before the First World War, most anvies called their frigates cruisers. Battleship is just a shortened term from "Battleship of the Line" or "Ship of the Line". Destroyers were designed to destroy torpedo boats hence called "Torpedo Boat Destroyers" later shortened to just "Destroyer"
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The whole concept of Survivor is get your average Joe and put him/her on the show and see how they react. Afterwards even though they did not win they make money by appearing on shows. There is no point in having to win a million dollars! They will make that amount in 2 months after appearing on 100 different shows!
However, we don't have that in the Star Trek Universe. Instead, we have a relatively small range of ships with radically different design concepts, which is acceptable given the constraints of the series and the fact that, well, space is vast.
But it doesn't help us one bit in classifying ships. We have no standard for comparison. So we must fall back on armament, defense, which primary systems take precedence (i.e. science vs. tactical), and so on.
But in my opinion, even this doesn't help, because Star Trek vessels have such a wide range of mission compatibility. They are extremely flexible. We have seen Oberths mostly as science vessels and then in major battles. We have seen Mirandas doing everything from research, to battleship-style duty, to cargo hauling.
With this in mind, I just don't see utilizing present-day classification systems as viable in classifying Starfleet vessels.
Who knows? Maybe we'll see an Akira someday as a medical ship, shuttling medicine to a planet in distress?
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"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism."
-Eleanor Arroway, "Contact" by Carl Sagan
For us we need to classify things because its easier to. We need to know what Ship A and Ship B are and if Ship C can stand a chance agianst the two. I think that Starfleet uses a new classification system than todays for example the Defiant is a escort but unofficially a warship. Now what warship means we don't know ussually a warship is a ship that is armed for war. That can be anything in todays terms such as a torpedo boat or a carrier.
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The whole concept of Survivor is get your average Joe and put him/her on the show and see how they react. Afterwards even though they did not win they make money by appearing on shows. There is no point in having to win a million dollars! They will make that amount in 2 months after appearing on 100 different shows!
Also, did anyone HATE the way that Torpedoes were show/depicted in FC battle scene!?! Those orangey blobs were so - annoying. Fake. Dull!?! I LURRRVED the Torps as seen in Generations/TUC nice.
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Homer: I'm gonna miss Springfield. This town's been awfully good to us.
Bart: No, it hasn't, Dad. That's why we're leaving.
Homer: Oh, yeah. [pokes his head out the window] So long, Stinktown!
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"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism."
-Eleanor Arroway, "Contact" by Carl Sagan
The TNG red torpedoes are also my least favourite torp FX, but I quite liked the ones from FC, especially the first two that hit the bottom of the cube, they had a nice buzz and good detonation.
The "new" quantums shine too brightly, I like the Defiant's ones from, um, "Defiant" better.
They weren't so goddamn slow, either.
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"Babies haven't any hair;
old men's heads are just as bare;
between the cradle and the grave
lies a haircut and a shave."
Samuel Hoffenstein
We've all the way through TNG had designs and registries increasing - even into DS9 and Voyager - look at the Runabouts each new runabout has a higher number than the other. Then Along comes the REDICULOUS Seens from FC with fucked up registries... and everyone takes this a 'canon'! I mean the Sabre was 8xxxx!!!!
1. I originally insisted that the Akira's are new ships - as per their designs and nacelles and phasers and lifeboats - E-E vintage - I think they still are
2. I was trying to explain the torps away as a consequence of everyone wanting these Akira's to be like 20 years old.
I feel that the four ships seen in FC were new and prototype ships that wouldn't be very far out. They were probably all closer in towards the core worlds undergoing test runs etc. No Excelsiors, Mirandas, Galaxies, Intrepids - out protecting the outer planets from the Dominion incursions.
So until this is all cleared up - I think i'll retract my pre-galaxy launcer theory and just say this.
The theory that the Akira, Steamrunner, Sabre and Norway are new ships is more likely
1. Not seeing them before FC.
2. The look of their Tech
3. They being the majority close in by Earth
They being old ships
1. That they ALL had COMPLETE overhauls/brought out of mothballs...
very unlikely
They are Defiant/E-E vintage.
Reguarding registry numbers - which cause this whole debate. They are wrong. They were not done by Okuda they - like the Prommie are wrong in the effects but I'm sure their plaques would have the correct numbering. 7xxxx...
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Homer: I'm gonna miss Springfield. This town's been awfully good to us.
Bart: No, it hasn't, Dad. That's why we're leaving.
Homer: Oh, yeah. [pokes his head out the window] So long, Stinktown!
------------------
"Babies haven't any hair;
old men's heads are just as bare;
between the cradle and the grave
lies a haircut and a shave."
Samuel Hoffenstein
------------------
"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism."
-Eleanor Arroway, "Contact" by Carl Sagan
------------------
"Babies haven't any hair;
old men's heads are just as bare;
between the cradle and the grave
lies a haircut and a shave."
Samuel Hoffenstein
------------------
The whole concept of Survivor is get your average Joe and put him/her on the show and see how they react. Afterwards even though they did not win they make money by appearing on shows. There is no point in having to win a million dollars! They will make that amount in 2 months after appearing on 100 different shows!
quote:
Yakaspat The Trekker said:
Well said Joshua. Also, I happen to like all those "ugly" ships from FC. In fact, they were a breathe of fresh air from all the Galaxy-bash ships.
Well said, I loved seeing all the new ships in the trailers and seeing them in the movie.
I hope you're joking. It's said to be even older than the Galaxy class, so it's most likely exceeding twenty years of service.
--Jonah
But you can generally take it as read that a ship with a registry of 72015 (Sutherland -- a Nebula) is newer than a ship with a registry of 52136 (Appalachia -- a Steamrunner).
And I admit the Thunderchild, Yeager, and Budapest had marginally higher registries than the lowest known Nebula, but they were still in the low 60000s...
--Jonah
[quietly] I know only the aired material is "canon". I know everything else is "pure conjecture". But I've been a Star Trek fan since the late-70s, and I have seen what a largely internally consistent fandom universe looks like. I know there are contradictions and errors, but those show up onscreen, too. Suffice it to say, including the stuff that wasn't onscreen added far more of benefit to the Trek universe than ignoring it does.
[still quietly] Now, granted all this is merely my own opinion, but I want to point out that I know the difference between "canon" and everthing else, and to my very-clear memory of all things with the Trek name on them to come along since 1970, to ignore all of that is to shoot yourself in the foot... repeatedly.
[yet still quietly] For reasons known only to him, Mike Okuda chose to arbitrarily assign dates to a number of things that fandom had almost completely agreed upon years before. He arbitrarily assigned new and confusing registry numbers to the rest of the Block I Constitutions that had been detailed for decades in fandom. He chose to amputate the novels and most (most, I say) of the Animated Series rather than do a bit of noodling to see if they might actually fit. Yes, that rankles me. No, I don't agree with his interpretation of Trek history. Yes, I know this doesn't matter much.
[no longer quietly] BUT FOR FUCK'S SAKE, PLEASE STOP BASHING ME OVER THE HEAD WITH THE "CANON" STICK!! I KNOW THE DIFFERENCE, AND I COULD GIVE A SHIT!! It won't make me stop in my attemps to remind/educate everyone on the "rest" of the Star Trek universe. So kindly stop trying to shove a set of blinders on my head.
[reasonably now] All of this "It's not canon *WHACK!*..." "That wasn't onscreen *WHACK!*..." dribble does not remove Ships of the Star Fleet or the Star Fleet Technical Manual or The Spaceflight Chronology or Starfleet Prototype or the Federation Reference Series from my bookshelf. These are creative and worthy additions to the Treknical universe, errors and all. I know not everyone has (or has access to) the same Treknical library I do. And I consider myself very fortunate to have acquired what I have mostly before the "canon-nazis" started getting their way at Paramount. But you don't give a gifted child a lobotomy just because not all the other kids are as smart as s/he is... 
--Jonah
[ May 31, 2001: Message edited by: Peregrinus ]
quote:
I believe that anything that has not been said on screen and that does not contradict that was on screen can be considered semi-cannon until its proven wrong by on screen evidence. That way it leaves a creative 'gap' for us fans to think otu for ourselves.
That's the kind of self-righteous fuzzy logic that allows the FASA nerds to fly into a near-immolatory fit of indignant rage whenever their precious clich�d worldview is threatened. . .
--Jonah
I doubt anyone here actually thinks FASA is canon however some use their ideas to fill the 'gaps'. I use the 'Ships of the Fleet' to 'fill the gaps', so I guess I am a "self-righteous fuzzy logic" nerd right? Gee I thought all I was a devoted Trekkie/Trekker.
[ June 02, 2001: Message edited by: Matrix ]
For all of you people who aren't sure how to spell it, or are too lazy to figure out how to spell it, or make chronic spelling mistakes, it is "canon" with one "n", not two.
"Canon" is "a body of rules, principles, etc.," that which you all have your shorts in an uproar about.
"Cannon" is that large projectile weapon, which in its heyday was deployed in a variety of situations.
There! My job here is done!