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Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
 
I'll get straight to the point: who actually believes what that ILM guy said about Akira having 15 torpedo tubes and a very large fighter hanger? As if all those years of people constantly arguing that the Defiant could take out Warbirds, Soveries, GCS, and what-not wasn't bad enough, we now get this.

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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
 


Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :
 
Welcome to the forums newbie! Normally I'd say something cheerful at this point, but I have to say that you might want to run away very quickly. Now.

I think everyone here is very tired of hearing this argument rehashed over and over again. I personally never heard of it, but the complaints from other get the point across. Of course, I might be mistaken and other will welcome this intriguing point of discussion.
 


Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
Well, technically we "got" this five years ago. And if NCC numbers are any indication, Starfleet "got" it well before TNG started.

Mark

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"Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?"

- Carl Sagan, "Contact"



 


Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
 
Welcome to the forums newbie! Normally I'd say something cheerful at this point, but I have to say that you might want to run away very quickly. Now.
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I posted this with the full knowledge I might be on the recieving end of some flames, but that's what shields and ablative armoring are for. Personally I am also very tired of this topic, and I want to get over with it once and for all. I'm looking for some solid arguments that'll disproof the 15 tube theory (besides "it wasn't in the show").

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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
 


Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
Well, there is no way to disprove it. In fact, since Jaeger said it, he most likely actually put those things on the model.

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"Although, from what I understand, having travelled around the Mid-west quite a bit, apparently Jesus is coming, so I guess the choice now is we should decide whether we should spit or swallow."
-Maynard James Keenan
 


Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :
 
That's ... upsetting.
 
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
There would be no opportunity in the galaxy better than the 001-incindent for the Akira to flex her muscles. Imagine a whole task force riding with you, eager to take out this arrogant threat.
Since none of the Akiras' tactical officers utilized their "superior" launcher systems, we must assume the other launchers are either auxiliary, made for probes only or some other obscure excuse they made up later.

Having a whole borg cube to fire upon, with backup and support all arund you, would've made me deplete my magazines, if I'd been at tactical.

But of course, that would've stolen the Enterprise's thunder, never underestimate the importance of highlighting the 1701!

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Don't kill me, I'm charming!

 


Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
Though it would make less sense, the p/s launchers could be microtorpedo launchers... If they were, they'd make more sense to be mounted p/s for use against smaller ships - and thus not against the Borg.

Mark

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"Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?"

- Carl Sagan, "Contact"



 


Posted by EdipisReks on :
 
i think that the 15 tubes would have mostly been singl fire tubes, and that they were installed to save money over the presumedly more expensive multi-fire tubes while still maintaining a decent level of torpedo coverage. i think that the original design and the post dominion war akiras would have had only a couple burt fire tubes in the front and back.

--jacob

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"Hi, my name's Locutus, and I'll be your assimilator tonight. Can I interest you in our specials? Super. Well, currently we're offering an arm-replacement tool with extra wiggly-waggly bits on, or, for the more daring among you, not one but two ocular replacements! Terrific. You want fries with that? Ohh, I'm sorry, I've just heard from the chef that fries are off - they're irrelevant, apparently."

-Vogon Poet, March 13, 2001
 


Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
 
The DS9 Technical Manual states that the Akira-class has only 2 torpedo launchers. The 15 tubes theory has, to my knowledge, only been stated on Internet sites created by fans who like the look of the ship and want to 'beef it up'.

I would like to take this moment to say that I could, as I have on other occasions, be wrong about this.
 


Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
 
No, the 15 tube count comes from Alex Jaeger. But at the same time it's a fanboy's dream. Click here to see the article from Star Trek: The Magazine by Jaeger.

The DS9 Tech Manual's ship info isn't exactly taken very well, and has often been the subject of many arguments.

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"Let me ask you something, Mr. Garibaldi, a purely philosophical question. On a scale of 1 to 10, how stupid do you think I am anyway?" - Bester
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Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
 
What was Jaeger smoking when he came up with the internal design, and can I get him arrested for it?

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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."

 


Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
LOL @ the thread title, it sounds like that Japanese version of Jimmy James' book in one episode of 'News Radio'. It was called "Super Karate Monkey Death Car".

Andrew

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Homer: I'm gonna miss Springfield. This town's been awfully good to us.
Bart: No, it hasn't, Dad. That's why we're leaving.
Homer: Oh, yeah. [pokes his head out the window] So long, Stinktown!

[This message has been edited by AndrewR (edited April 30, 2001).]
 


Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
 
Then we'll have alot of people to arret for smocking and designing ships however I think Jeager wins "The Biggest Crackhead in the World Award" for designing all those usgly ship in FC.

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Posted by Joshua Bell (Member # 327) on :
 
When posting critiques of ships, episodes, etc, please try and consider how the creator would react upon reading your comments. Should he ever decide to visit, would the appellation of "crack-head" entice Jaeger to stay and participate in discussions on this forum, or would it merely reinforce negative stereotypes about Internet users?

It's all well and good to express personal distaste in a design, or even general disagreement with the direction taken by a particular designer, but insulting the designer is not going to win you any friends. Particularly not with anyone involved in the creative process.

 


Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
 
Ok ok, but you have to admit, one wonders what was going on through Jaeger's mind when he came up with that stuff. I mean the ship looks great, but obvious there was a lack of careful thought when it came to the inside. 15 tubes (so what if they're only single fire) plus huge shuttle bays plus saucer seperation? It looks like the main deflector would remain with the saucer upon seperation, and since the warp core is almost always located behind the dish, wouldn't that mean the core would be with the saucer section?

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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."

 


Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
Who says the wore *has* to be behind the dish? It's generally that way because, well, they're both so big. There's no rule that says so.

I'm of the opinion that if the Akira has all this combat stuff, there just ain't enough room left over for all that scientific stuff - which is the very reason we didn't see any of them through TNG.

Mark

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"Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?"

- Carl Sagan, "Contact"



 


Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :
 
Quite true. For example, the Miranda-class, the Defiant-class, the Intrepid-class, and I believe the Sovereign as well. Warp cores seem to be getting smaller and smaller anyway. Or at least their basic layout has changed a bit.

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
 
There's a CGI of the Akira which shows two hatches, one on each catamaran arm. I was under the empression that the Akira has two warp cores. Why? I don't know, but then again 15 torpedo tubes don't make much sense either.

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"Let me ask you something, Mr. Garibaldi, a purely philosophical question. On a scale of 1 to 10, how stupid do you think I am anyway?" - Bester
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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
Well, maybe this explains the sudden appearence of 'old' ships... in the last few years, when we didn't see them in TNG... also for their 'different' appearence.

The Borg. The Borg caused it. Maybe these ships are purely combat vessels - i.e. the Akira, Sabre, Steamrunner and Norway. The appearence of the Defiant may help in explaining this...

OK we might have had something like this:

Cardassian Wars - the Federation starts to create war-dedicated ships. The Akira and the Steamrunner are rolled of the assembly line.

End of Cardassian War outright conflict. Akira's Steamrunners and other 'dedicated to conflict' ships are retired and stored away.

then...

Borg encountered.

Several new 'weapons' are designed after the Enterprise encounter with a Cube in System J25.

The Defiant, the Sabre and the Norway are created.

Borg reach the Federation and penetrate the Terran system. New ships aren't ready for deployment.

Borg cube destroyed by Enterprise above earth orbit.

Federation decide to finish at least two of Each of the Defiant, Sabre and Norway class ships, to at least some semblence of operation.

The Federation encounter the hostility of the Dominion... the Odyssey destroyed.

DS9 upgrade commenced. Defiant taken out of mothballs by Commander Sisko, and taken to DS9. Miles O'Brien brings the Defiant into working order. His notes are passed on to The Starfleet Core of Engineers, and they are ordered to begin the alterations to the remaining Defiant Class ships along with the Sabres and Norways.

Norways prove to be more time consuming compared to Defiant and Sabres...

Dominion War threat looming. Changelings throughout the Federation. Klingon Hostilities. The war-dedicated ships like the Akiras and Steamrunners, (along with the finishing upgrades on new Sabres, Defiants and the remaining Norways) are brought out of retirement and upgraded to current performance standards. I.e. refit of majority of systems, using Sovereign development and Defiant refitting as a blueprint. (Evidence seen during "Relativity" [VOY]

First refit Akira's and Steamrunner's roll out. Looking different to when they originally appeared during the Cardassian Wars. They are ready to take on the Borg, the Dominion, the Cardassians and the Klingons.

Dominion War immenent. Retired starships are purged for useful parts. New - and old designs combined to provide more numbers of ships. These ships crews take to their hybrid sisters fondly.

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Homer: I'm gonna miss Springfield. This town's been awfully good to us.
Bart: No, it hasn't, Dad. That's why we're leaving.
Homer: Oh, yeah. [pokes his head out the window] So long, Stinktown!
 


Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
 
We forget so soon that the Galaxy was all-but-explicitly said to be Starfleet's most superior vessel tactically in TNG and the TNGTM.

Megawarships just didn't exist before 2363.

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Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
 
But the Galaxy WASN'T a warship - neither was any other class for that matter (except for the Defiant) - its official designation, IIRC, was 'multirole exploratory cruiser'. In fact, their tactical capabilities were found to be quite unsatisfactory, if the 2371 refit programs are any indication.

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Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :
 
I too thought the Galaxy was seen as a flawed design. I can remember at least one episode where such a thing was said.

quote:
Megawarships just didn't exist before 2363.

This could be true, if you don't count tha Akira as a battleship. I still think the sideways firing tubes are actually just windows. And disregarding the 15 tubes mentioned, I think the Akira only got a weapons-pod upgrade after the End-D Borg encounter.


The Defiant class are warships, that's for sure. And I also nominate the Prometheus class as a warship as well, given it's overall design features and the "... designed for deep-space tactical assignment" statement.

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Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :
 
Dunno.

Looking at the Akira, Steamrunner, Sabre and Norway classes, I'd consider them to be older vessels (20 years or more?), possibly upgraded to present weaponry standards (and quite possibly not).

They don't seem to match the present design philosophy of Starfleet - even though their weapons and escape systems might be updated.

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Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
 
Mark Nguyen: According to the DS9TM (burn #*&$^ burn!) the Defiant can carry out 90+% of standard scientific missions. The Akira is a lot bigger.

The_Evil_Lord: You can also see it this way: basically ALL Federation ships WERE warships. Starfleet might have said that their primary mission is exploration, but that's just propaganda, everyone knows their real job is to ensure the safety of the Federation. Don't think that those soft looking Starfleet people will let science and discovery stand in the way of them protecting their homeland and people.

I haven't really noticed warp cores getting any smaller. Voyager's core is pretty normal for a ship her size, and Defiant's was oversized (look at the size of the M/AM reaction chamber instead of the magnetic constrictors).

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
Besides, we've gotten too spoiled about sizes from Star Trek and Star Wars. The Defiant would cover the damn Colosseum, for crying out loud.

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Posted by Wes (Member # 212) on :
 
The prototype had 15 launchers. Ships developed for the war had 2 because of limited resources.

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
Source?

Mark

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"Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?"

- Carl Sagan, "Contact"



 


Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
 
Source?
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Common sense lacked by the original design team. -_^

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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."

 


Posted by Wes (Member # 212) on :
 
Oh, thats my speculation. hehe sorry. erhaps the prototype had 2 warp cores?

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Posted by crobato on :
 


Looking at the Akira, Steamrunner, Sabre and Norway classes, I'd consider them to be older vessels (20 years or more?), possibly upgraded to present weaponry standards (and quite possibly not).

They don't seem to match the present design philosophy of Starfleet - even though their weapons and escape systems might be updated.


Umm, the reason why they look like the way they were is simply because a single outsider---Alex Jaeger of Industrial Light and Magic---designed all four of them. I won't consider them old actually. They were inspired and were meant as replacements of the Miranda class, ironically an earlier ILM design as well. The AJ-FC ships had a different mindset---essentially looking for an anti-Borg warship---based on the concepts laid by the Defiant. Like the Defiant, the idea behind them was to look simply different.

This is in contrast to the TV designed ships, which are done within Paramount itself and staff directly working on the TV show. This staff, like John Eaves and Rick Sternbach, is more or less acquianted with a better sense of technological and styling continuity. Looking for designs that can span both from the Enterprise E and Voyager, two of the most recent designs are the Prometheus and Nova classes. Even if the Prometheus has a radical concept, you can see from its design that it has a much greater styling continuity from ships like the Sovereign and Intrepid. The Steamrunner could look like it came out from Star Wars, but the Promie looks very recognizably Trek.


 


Posted by crobato on :
 

This is my short story about the Akira, Sabre, Norway and Steamrunner classes okay? This is highly speculative, but it's up to you if it makes good sense.

Basically after Wolf 359, the inadequecies of Starfleet's mainstream classes became apparent. These includes the Niagara, New Orleans, Constellation and Cheyenne classes. The Starfleet is also ripe for a Miranda replacement. It's not just the Borg, but the sudden reappearance of the Romulans, whose Warbirds could get the handle of even the Galaxy classes; the war with the Cardassians and instability within the Klingon Empire---all combined to up the specs for a new multirole warship with better military capabilities. The result is the Akira.

The Sabre/Defiant/Steamrunner/Norway came from another development---the powerful pulse phaser cannon. While Starfleet is basically shopping for an anti-Borg warship, it's also shopping for a Miranda replacement.

So the Defiant is made with pulse phaser cannons. But the technology is new, and there are questions whether these cannons can be made fast enough, and with the limited firing arc of these weapons. So Starfleet wanted an alternative design about the same physical size and crew size, with about the same performance level but using more conventional phaser strips. The result is the Sabre. If you look at any close diagrams of the Sabre, it has phaser strips.

Looking to apply pulse phaser cannon on a larger ship meant as a Miranda replacement, the result is the Norway class. If you look at the models or closeup of the Norway, it does not use phaser strips. Instead it's got this big phaser cannon on the nose, which has to be pulse phasers. But again for the same reason why they brought out the Sabre, Starfleet wanted an alternative using conventional phaser strips. The result of that was the Steamrunner. Yes, you can see from the closeups and diagrams of the Steamrunner that it does use conventional phaser strips.

Production problems encountered with the pulse phasers led to the commissioning of the Sabre and Steamrunner classes. Since the supply of pulse phasers are limited, the Defiant and Norway hulls have to compete for them. With greater production emphasis going for the Defiant class, production numbers for the Norway became limited. The Miranda replacement role was increasingly grabbed by the Steamrunners. With pulse phasers limited, a number of Norways had to come out using conventional phasers---but without a strip, their arcs are more limited, decreasing their tactical value not to mention their firepower. So Starfleet did not commission a lot of Norways, and the bulk of that role was taken with the more popular Steamrunners.

One thing that made the Defiant such an inherently tough craft---even if ablative armor is not installed---is that the structure is very well armored and shielded to protect the crew from the effects of the warp nacelles built right into its structure. The same philosophy is applied on the Steamrunner. That same extreme reinforcement, shielding and armor designed to protect the crew from the effects of the nacelles and Bussard collectors, also made the Steamrunner a very tough craft to destroy in battle. This ruggedness makes the Steamrunner popular with its crews, even though its interior space is limited.

Given these advantages, the Steamrunner has a stronger edge for being the Miranda replacement for Starfleet. But as production of pulse phasers eases, its problems resolved, there is once again a renewed interest for a pulse phaser equipped warship in the Miranda slot (the 300m-350m size class.) This maybe what it takes to resurrect the Norway class.



 


Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
 
What if this:

The Akira class was built in the 2350's along with the the Galaxy and Nebula classes. The Galaxy class as the explorer and the Nebula class as the supplement for the Galaxy class. The Akira class is the battleship version where it would protect the Federation. The Akira class at this time had parts that resembled the Galaxy class parts, necelles, escape pods, bridge, etc. However before Wolf 359, Starfleet brought in a few Akiras to fit them as large torfp platforms. This basically is that the ships would launch a massive torpedo attack in which hopefully the Borg wouldn't be quick enough to adapt to the large volley and destroy or severely damage the ship. However they weren't ready for Wolf 359, so afterwards these ships were completed and let back into service. Later however a basic refit for the class which was to replace the escape pods, nacelles, bridge with the latest designs from the Sovereign class.

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The whole concept of Survivor is that nameless adults go at each other and try to outwit each other. In reality after the first episode of the show, each one will make a least over a thousand dollars for making appearences on some talk show. The first survivor, the Gay Guy now works at E.T. as a Survivor Consultent, where he gives advice to the new survivors. Not only did he win a million dollars that he now makes twice as much as what most of us make in 5 years.

I highly doubt that hes gay, made his own son run, and walk naked around the site. It was all tactics to get him win a million dollars. Right now I bet hes fucking some girl. Jerry from the second Survivro is something because everyone talks alot about her. The whole concept of Surivivor sucks, and it should end with the second one.



 


Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
 
The Galaxy class as the explorer and the Nebula class as the supplement for the Galaxy class. The Akira class is the battleship version where it would protect the Federation.
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Doesn't make sense, if the Akira doesn't have her 15 tubes right off the bat, she's actually too much of a step down from the Galaxy or the Nebula to be a battleship.

The Akira class at this time had parts that resembled the Galaxy class parts, necelles, escape pods, bridge, etc.
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A lot of Starfleet ships use similar designs for components such as nacelles, escape pods, bridge, etc.

However before Wolf 359, Starfleet brought in a few Akiras to fit them as large torfp platforms. This basically is that the ships would launch a massive torpedo attack in which hopefully the Borg wouldn't be quick enough to adapt to the large volley and destroy or severely damage the ship.
---
Once the Borg adapted to a weapon once, it's supposedly useless no matter how much you throw at them. Of course, from VOY and ST:FC, you'd think different. ^_^''''

However they weren't ready for Wolf 359, so afterwards these ships were completed and let back into service. Later however a basic refit for the class which was to replace the escape pods, nacelles, bridge with the latest designs from the Sovereign class.
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Reworking existing ships with different escape pods and nacelles seems like a waste of time. Especially if you have to rework the hull to accomindate the EP, which can come in square (if you go by the assumption that's the standard) to the newer hexegon(?). If you rework the nacelle, you might need to restudy the ship's warp field geometry and so on. O_o

I really think the Akira came after Wolf 359. The NCC number dating system isn't known for its reliability. How old would the Soverign class be, since one of its ships has a 1701? ^_~

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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."

 


Posted by crobato on :
 

The 15 torpedo tubes still does not make sense. Just remember that Jaeger who designed the Akira is an outsider to Trek. He may like Trek, but he's not one of the nuts and bolts people who maintains a good pulse on continuity and Treknology like Eaves or Sternbach. The guy is doing a lot of work for many other movies and shows including Star Wars. I have never seen an Akira fire a massive burst of torpedoes. It also seems that ships of this era has rapid loading and firing tubes, which can make having a lot of tubes obsolete.
 


Posted by Evolved (Member # 389) on :
 
Personally, I think the ILM guy thought torpedo launchers were like rapid fire guns from Star Wars and other sci-fi genres and assumed the more, the better.

How do we justify this in Star Trek? I like the "single-burst" tube idea presented. If we go by the registry number, perhaps this ship was in use at the Cardassian War and fought along side the Ambassador...their nacelles share a somewhat resemblance...

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"Objects in mirror are closer than they appear."


 


Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
 
They look more like modified Galaxy type ones to me.

No, the Borg can adapt to the weapon, but the overwelming firepower of hundreds of torps firing at a cube is devestating no matter how well adapted the ship is. In ST FC, the Starfleet fleet fired at one spot that was damaged this overwelming the Borg's defense systems and setroying the ship.

Replacing escape pods isn't that bad, in fact those escape pods appear to be about the same size. The reason to replace them? Better survivibility, better propulsion, etc.

Replacing the warp nacelles all isn't that bad either. Replacing faulty nacelles or just to make the ship faster is a reason.

The Akira being a battleship without the 15 torpedo tubes works. The ship could have better manuverability with better shielding, heavier armor, and possibily more powerful phasers.

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The whole concept of Survivor is get your average Joe and put him/her on the show and see how they react. Afterwards even though they did not win they make money by appearing on shows. There is no point in having to win a million dollars! They will make that amount in 2 months after appearing on 100 different shows!

[This message has been edited by Matrix (edited May 14, 2001).]
 


Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
 
The Akira being a battleship without the 15 torpedo tubes works. The ship could have better manuverability with better shielding, heavier armor, and possibily more powerful phasers.
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Battleships aren't meant to be manuverable, they're meant to sit there and take a beating. There's nothing to suggest that the Akira has different shield emitters from the Galaxy, and the Galaxy is suppose to have more of them backed up by a bigger warp core. It's doubtful that the Akira would have more powerful phasers. If it came out around the same as the Galaxies and Nebula, it would pack Type-Xs.

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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."

 


Posted by crobato on :
 

I was thinking that the ILM guy may have temporarily confused his Akira specs to some Mon Calamari carrier or something.


 


Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Or maybe, just maybe, he wanted the Akira to have a heap of torpedo tubes and then designed it that way? Maybe?

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
But battleship designation is a bit much. With the exception of the 682m Negh'Var, that lasted pretty well under pressure, Trek battleships mostly start at 1200m+ (D'Deridex. Dommie Ship).

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
I wouldn't even grant Negh'Var battleshiphood. Big cruiser, yes, perhaps battlecruiser... But to do real justice to the designation, a battleship ought to outlast a hero-manned Enterprise in battle. That is, it ought to take point-blank hits for five minutes without returning fire, and at most have "shields at 15%" and some smoke rising from bridge consoles. The Negh'Var only did that for three aired minutes or so... And wasn't hit all that often.

There really should be more than a "if you are taller than this sign" limitation to calling a ship "battleship". If it's not superb armor in Trek era, then at least some roughly comparable distinctive feature.

Timo Saloniemi


 


Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :
 
So check out the relative designations/descriptions for Cruisers, Battleships, destroyers, etc. in present-day wet-navies - and adapt them.

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Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
 
Battleships is a ship with the heaviest armor and the most powerful guns. Speed and maunverability is a plus. Cruiser have moderate weaponary and armor with speed that can make circles around a battleship. A destroyer is a ship with the weakest guns and little to no armor and very high speeds.

However there is a problem in Trek. We don't know how powerful these ships really are. All we see is the most powerful ship (E-D, E-E and Prometheus) get hit by a couple of shots and they're smoking. Also currently as I see it, the war between offensiver and defensive systems, is that any defensive systems any ship has is no match for the latest weapons. For example those flying targets Starfleet calls Mirandas and Excelsiors had their hulls literally disengrating plus disabled by one shot.

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The whole concept of Survivor is get your average Joe and put him/her on the show and see how they react. Afterwards even though they did not win they make money by appearing on shows. There is no point in having to win a million dollars! They will make that amount in 2 months after appearing on 100 different shows!
 


Posted by Tech Sergeant Chen (Member # 350) on :
 
Jaeger himself never called it a battleship. He called it his "gunship/battlecruiser/aircraft carrier." A battlecruiser is smaller and lighter than a true battleship. You can't object to a ship the size of the Akira being called a battlecruiser when the classic "Klingon battlecruiser" was smaller than 1701-nil.

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Posted by bear (Member # 124) on :
 
I much prefer designation battlecruiser over battleship, but than again I like the idea of almost everything being a cruiser of some kind or another.

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Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
 
"gunship/battlecruiser/aircraft carrier"? He contradicts himself three times right there. Those things aren't suppose to be all thrown into a blender and mixed like that.

Hey, Miranda and Excelsiors are the true work horses of the Federation. Don't mock them! Sure they explode quite often, but we see a lot of other newer ships go up in flame, too. Only reason we don't see more of that is because they don't show as many of the newer classes. Besides, it's not like they follow a single Miranda or Excelsior around, showing every moment it's in combat. They just show you a few seconds before, during, and after they blow up. You don't know exactly how much punishment they have taken already.

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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."

 


Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
 
Actually a battlecruiser by definition is a ship wth cruiser armor with battleship guns. The battlecruiser has no armor to make the ship faster. Generally a battlecruiser almost or over a battleship's tonnage. The naval battlecruiser was thought of as a cruiser-killer and whatever it can't defeat, it would be faster to run away. However fleet commanders thought them as almost battleships and when fighting against a true battleship they were no match. The last battlecruiser was the HMS Hood, and she like the well known battle she was sunk by a true battleship.

No armor but heavy guns sounds like your typical Trek ship. But I'm a battleship person when I have a choice betwen a battlecruiser or a slow battleship, I'll take a battleship any day unless you have a more powerful battleship than me.

Those three designations are seperate, they are meant to be seperate its either one or the other not all. For the Akira I'll go for: Heavily Armed Torpedo Cruiser.

------------------
The whole concept of Survivor is get your average Joe and put him/her on the show and see how they react. Afterwards even though they did not win they make money by appearing on shows. There is no point in having to win a million dollars! They will make that amount in 2 months after appearing on 100 different shows!
 


Posted by bear (Member # 124) on :
 
I have always love the glory days of the BB as well, but give me a fast efficient battlecruiser, and I would gladly run like hell if I got out matched.
I realize that it didn't work for the hood, and that the AD Graf Spee, Lutow, and the AD Scheer were less than out right winners by design or tactics, but I still like the idea especially in universe of trek.

------------------
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[This message has been edited by bear (edited May 16, 2001).]
 


Posted by crobato on :
 

Lutzow had bad luck. Graf Spee was caught but had a good run. The Scheer had quite a lucky run and survived the war. Let's not forget that the battlecruisers Schwarnhorst and Gneisnau wre probably the most successful of their type given the damage they caused to the British, including ambushing a carrier.

Until the advent of patrols, battlecruisers were quite effective in deep enemy territory operations. But eventually though, it turns out that submarines could accomplish the same job for a lower cost.

I would speculate that if Star Trek wars are fought in more practical and realistic assumptions, the brunt of the battles would be carried by massed formation of ships from the 100m to 350m class. Based on the game Dominion Wars, it would be termed as Class 1 and Class 2 ships. In the English language, that would be your Escort, Frigate, Scout, and Destroyer classes, covering the gamut of ships from the Bird of Prey, the Defiant, the Sabre to the Steamrunner, Norway and Intrepid classes. This would be most modern naval wars where the brunt of action were carried by destroyers and frigates including World War II.

There are value in the two extremes in a Trek environment---large super capital ships and massed formations of strike fighters from carriers, but it would be the smaller middle ships that would take the brunt of fighting and dying in a war.


 


Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
 
There's something I wanna bring up.

Remember in the scene in FC there is an Akira on the top right hand corner and:
- fires 5 torpedoes from just above the deflector,
- fires these torpedoes in RAPID FIRE MODE.

Assuming that these are indeed single fire torpedo launchers, and suppose there are, say 5 torpedo launchers just above the deflector dish, this COULD explain the rapid firing from this Akira.

The Akira is a great looking ship from the outside. That thing was a beaut first time I saw it.

------------------
"Intelligence People. You guys are unbelievable. You dump a mess like this (that you created) on my lap, and then you come to me whining "Where is our funding"? Well I'll tell you where your funding is. Can you say Health-Care"
- The President of the United States of America, The Long Kiss Goodnight


 


Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
No, they come from the same source. Putting five single fire launchers together is like reverting to old sailship cannons. There must be ways of building revolving magazines or something to make deployment faster.

Timo: Your criteria for battleship status is a bit high, I think.
Firstly, battlecruisers have even been known to be as small as the old K'Tingas. If the range of battlecruiser sizes can vary so, why couldn't that of battleships?
If I may compare with WWII battleships, the italian Vittorio class and the US South Dakota class were both much smaller and lighter ships than the Iowa class or Yamato class, but they were all battleships.

And the considerable size/mass difference between the Vor'Cha and the Negh'Var is IMO well enough to grant the Negh battleship status. It's also a very slow ship, indicating that they rather rely on shielding, armor and strong weapons than impulse engines.


Despite the fact that the mirror Defiant had stronger phasers than any contemporary ship that ever took on the emperor's flagship, other ships of the same size has fared worse, for instance the romulan D'Deridex.
One of those got whammed pretty good when strafing the cardassian sentry gun network. It didn't look at all harmed just prior to the final volleys that made it lose stabilizers and start spinning out of control.

------------------
"Babies haven't any hair;
old men's heads are just as bare;
between the cradle and the grave
lies a haircut and a shave."

Samuel Hoffenstein
 


Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
 
First of all, despite what you read in the books or watch on the TV, the Graf Spee and her sisters are no battleships. They are heavily armed cruisers. She was slower than cruisers, she had the armor of a cruiser and she had only 6 11" guns. A true battlecruiser would run away from its cruiser counterparts, also would have a larger armament.

Galaxy: Battlecruiser/Command Cruiser
Sovereign: Battleship

Neh'Var: Battleship
Vorcha: Battlecruiser

D'Deridex: Battlecruiser

Galor: Heavy Cruiser

Jemmie Battlecruiser: Battlecruiser (no duh)
Jemmie Battleship: Battleship (no duh again)

For ships you don't go by size but the amount of armor and armament, plus speed. You can have a ship 80 miles long but have no weapons or armament, is that a battleship?

------------------
The whole concept of Survivor is get your average Joe and put him/her on the show and see how they react. Afterwards even though they did not win they make money by appearing on shows. There is no point in having to win a million dollars! They will make that amount in 2 months after appearing on 100 different shows!
 


Posted by crobato on :
 

D'Deridex a battlecruiser? That's nearly twice as big as a Galaxy.



 


Posted by bear (Member # 124) on :
 
I realize the Deuchlands class ships probably can't be considered true battlecruiser, but for their periode they were definitely more than just a cruiser.

------------------
Access Password
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[This message has been edited by bear (edited May 17, 2001).]
 


Posted by crobato on :
 

The Deutschland class wasn't as fast as a cruiser, but it was definitely better armored and better gunned than Allied cruisers which only had 8 inchers. German cannons tend to be ballistically superior over an equivalent Allied cannon.

There was one cruiser that actually outweighted and even outarmored the Deutschland class and that was the Prinz Eugen. But it was still classed as a heavy cruiser.

 


Posted by BlueElectron (Member # 281) on :
 
Just to point this out for you guys:

if we're comparing modern ships against Star Trek ship, then yes, there are very specific guide lines for different type of ships that are used by navies across the world today (battleship, battlecruiser).

For example, check the Washington treaty for the specific guidelines lay out for battleships.

------------------
What is the difference between a terriorist and your girlfriend?
- With terrorist, there is a chance of negotiation.



 


Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
 
Graf Spee was a "pocket battleship," that is, a cruiser that just scraped under the restrictions of the Washington Treaty but was still very scary shit.

------------------
"And as it is, it is cheaper than drinking."
-DT on arguing with Omega, April 30

 


Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
To modify Matrix's list a bit, I'd like to forget that the respective navies call their own ships and instead apply YAPIUSLBOWWTD (yet another personal interpretation of universal standard loosely based on WWII definitions).

Galaxy, Nebula: very heavy cruiser
Sovereign, Ambassador, Akira, Excelsior etc: heavy cruiser
Miranda and size-mates: destroyer

Negh'Var: very heavy cruiser or battlecruiser
Vor'Cha: heavy cruiser
K't'inga: destroyer
Small BoB: corvette, PT boat

D'eridex: very heavy cruiser or "pocket battleship"

Galor: destroyer, or perhaps light cruiser

Jemmie attack ship: PT boat
Jemmie warships: cruiser, heavy cruiser
Jemmie battleship: battleship (the first ship in Trek with a big enough quantitative difference from the usual cruisers, if not a qualitative difference)

Borg ship: forget it, there's only so much one can do with WWII analogies. The closest thing would probably be mainland Japan.

Typical TOS adversary ship: cruiser (matches the heroes)
Typical TNG adversary ship: destroyer (outgunned by heroes)
Typical Voyager adversary ship: heavy cruiser (outguns heroes)

Timo Saloniemi

 


Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
 
"Loosely based on current day naval classifications" - that in itself is risky since we (apparently) don't even know how today's standards are derived, let alone fictional 24th century ones!

However, I suppose there is some 'universal' way of classification that never really changes over time: a ship is designated 'destroyer', 'cruiser', 'heavy cruiser' et all, based on a combination of factors (never just a single one) - armament, defensive abilities, speed, and whatnot. Obviously these designations differ per race/culture, which is why Galor-class ships were labelled 'destroyers' by Sisko/Starfleet in Sacrifice of Angels, while the Cardassians themselves considered them (battle-)cruisers.

In the 23rd century K'tinga's were called 'battlecruisers' because at the time, their configuration warranted such a description. But as starships 'got better', that designation became obsolete - they might now be referred to as 'destroyers' or even 'frigates'.

(Best example of this btw would be the Defiant - officially an 'escort' (whatever that might be), unofficially a warship (again, whatever that might be) with firepower that could fit the 'battleship' category, speed & maneuverability that would not be out of place in the 'destroyer' range...)

------------------
"Cry havoc and let's slip the dogs of Evil"

[This message has been edited by The_Evil_Lord (edited May 18, 2001).]
 


Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
The firepower would fit 'gunship' category, as in fast but small unit armed to the teeth with short range weapons, like an attack helicopter.

------------------
"Babies haven't any hair;
old men's heads are just as bare;
between the cradle and the grave
lies a haircut and a shave."

Samuel Hoffenstein
 


Posted by Wes (Member # 212) on :
 
Well, if you people knew what it took to design and model a ship in 3ds, especially with god-like detail that alex has put into it (he told me in an email once that hullplates were actually modeled-- not bumpmapped) you would learn to respect his schematics for his ship, as I do.

------------------
Wes Button[email protected]
TechFX StudiosThe United Federation Uplink
------------------
I don't like Wesley Crusher.


 


Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
 
Huh what are talking about?

The modern classifications are known to most. The modern cuiser was orginally called a frigate from 1700-1800's hopwever the French called it a cruiser. Somehom before the First World War, most anvies called their frigates cruisers. Battleship is just a shortened term from "Battleship of the Line" or "Ship of the Line". Destroyers were designed to destroy torpedo boats hence called "Torpedo Boat Destroyers" later shortened to just "Destroyer"

------------------
The whole concept of Survivor is get your average Joe and put him/her on the show and see how they react. Afterwards even though they did not win they make money by appearing on shows. There is no point in having to win a million dollars! They will make that amount in 2 months after appearing on 100 different shows!
 


Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :
 
Jane's All the World's Fighting Ships uses or used a classification system based on weight alone to clear up clashes between different nations' classification systems. The 1945 edition actually lists what constitutes heavy, medium, and light armament for each nation's navy. It is relatively easy to see what category a ship will fall into if you know the design methodology of the period and have a vast range of ships to look at. (For example, if you page through Jane's, most frigates, cruisers, etc. share a similar sort of gunnery arrangement, superstructure, and hull line within each category.)

However, we don't have that in the Star Trek Universe. Instead, we have a relatively small range of ships with radically different design concepts, which is acceptable given the constraints of the series and the fact that, well, space is vast.

But it doesn't help us one bit in classifying ships. We have no standard for comparison. So we must fall back on armament, defense, which primary systems take precedence (i.e. science vs. tactical), and so on.

But in my opinion, even this doesn't help, because Star Trek vessels have such a wide range of mission compatibility. They are extremely flexible. We have seen Oberths mostly as science vessels and then in major battles. We have seen Mirandas doing everything from research, to battleship-style duty, to cargo hauling.

With this in mind, I just don't see utilizing present-day classification systems as viable in classifying Starfleet vessels.

Who knows? Maybe we'll see an Akira someday as a medical ship, shuttling medicine to a planet in distress?

------------------
"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism."

-Eleanor Arroway, "Contact" by Carl Sagan

 


Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
 
I think that any ship including todays battleships can be converted into whatever the Navy needs, however it all comes down to cost. For instance the hull the Iowa class Kentucky was discussed to be a command ship for the navy but it was too costly. Also several ships over the years have been modified to be crane ships, training ships, or even transports. After World War 2, almost every ship including the carrier and the battleship ferried soliders back to their home, not a big deal but transporting isn't supposed to be part of a battleship's duty.

For us we need to classify things because its easier to. We need to know what Ship A and Ship B are and if Ship C can stand a chance agianst the two. I think that Starfleet uses a new classification system than todays for example the Defiant is a escort but unofficially a warship. Now what warship means we don't know ussually a warship is a ship that is armed for war. That can be anything in todays terms such as a torpedo boat or a carrier.

------------------
The whole concept of Survivor is get your average Joe and put him/her on the show and see how they react. Afterwards even though they did not win they make money by appearing on shows. There is no point in having to win a million dollars! They will make that amount in 2 months after appearing on 100 different shows!
 


Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
About the multi torpedo ports on the Akira, I think it has these as a result of being an 'older' ship than the Galaxy class, which could - as we have seen done the same or better in terms of amount of torps fired compared to the Akira. If we go by the five rapid fire torps that we saw in FC, have a look at Booby Trap - which I saw again tonight (GREAT EPISODE) the 'prise fires 4 at once from the one port. It's just a matter of the tech being upgraded over time where by the big D and her sisterships didn't need 15 ports to do what one or two ports could do.

Also, did anyone HATE the way that Torpedoes were show/depicted in FC battle scene!?! Those orangey blobs were so - annoying. Fake. Dull!?! I LURRRVED the Torps as seen in Generations/TUC nice.

------------------
Homer: I'm gonna miss Springfield. This town's been awfully good to us.
Bart: No, it hasn't, Dad. That's why we're leaving.
Homer: Oh, yeah. [pokes his head out the window] So long, Stinktown!
 


Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :
 
The AKIRA is older than the Galaxy class? Maybe...but I wouldn't count on it. Also, Rapid fire torpedo technology is nothing new. The refit-Enterprise was supposed to have that, witness the four rapid, consecutive shots fired at the Genesis planet.

------------------
"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism."

-Eleanor Arroway, "Contact" by Carl Sagan

 


Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
When did they fire at Genesis four times??? Or do you mean at that location, firing on Kruge?
That was just two torpedoes. But it was indeed a fast volley, and the firing sound is my favourite to date.
The Ent-D aft torpedoes of "Encounter at Farpoint" being the worst.

The TNG red torpedoes are also my least favourite torp FX, but I quite liked the ones from FC, especially the first two that hit the bottom of the cube, they had a nice buzz and good detonation.
The "new" quantums shine too brightly, I like the Defiant's ones from, um, "Defiant" better.
They weren't so goddamn slow, either.

------------------
"Babies haven't any hair;
old men's heads are just as bare;
between the cradle and the grave
lies a haircut and a shave."

Samuel Hoffenstein
 


Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
The Akira class is supposed to older than the Galaxy Class - as per their registries...

We've all the way through TNG had designs and registries increasing - even into DS9 and Voyager - look at the Runabouts each new runabout has a higher number than the other. Then Along comes the REDICULOUS Seens from FC with fucked up registries... and everyone takes this a 'canon'! I mean the Sabre was 8xxxx!!!!

1. I originally insisted that the Akira's are new ships - as per their designs and nacelles and phasers and lifeboats - E-E vintage - I think they still are

2. I was trying to explain the torps away as a consequence of everyone wanting these Akira's to be like 20 years old.

I feel that the four ships seen in FC were new and prototype ships that wouldn't be very far out. They were probably all closer in towards the core worlds undergoing test runs etc. No Excelsiors, Mirandas, Galaxies, Intrepids - out protecting the outer planets from the Dominion incursions.

So until this is all cleared up - I think i'll retract my pre-galaxy launcer theory and just say this.

The theory that the Akira, Steamrunner, Sabre and Norway are new ships is more likely

1. Not seeing them before FC.
2. The look of their Tech
3. They being the majority close in by Earth

They being old ships

1. That they ALL had COMPLETE overhauls/brought out of mothballs...

very unlikely

They are Defiant/E-E vintage.

Reguarding registry numbers - which cause this whole debate. They are wrong. They were not done by Okuda they - like the Prommie are wrong in the effects but I'm sure their plaques would have the correct numbering. 7xxxx...

------------------
Homer: I'm gonna miss Springfield. This town's been awfully good to us.
Bart: No, it hasn't, Dad. That's why we're leaving.
Homer: Oh, yeah. [pokes his head out the window] So long, Stinktown!
 


Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
It's simply common sense. The staff decides that they'll have new ships in "First Contact". Why? To reflect that Starfleet has been doing more than taking soil samples on Theta-Eta-Crapsilon Prime the past six years. They have been growing to meet the mettle of the other superpowers in the quadrant, and prepared themselves against the Borg.
It's much more credible and much more EASIER than trying to convince us that these streamlined, advanced designs already existed long, long ago.

------------------
"Babies haven't any hair;
old men's heads are just as bare;
between the cradle and the grave
lies a haircut and a shave."

Samuel Hoffenstein
 


Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :
 
Gah! I never noticed the registries in FC. *sigh* I've grown lax in my High School years. But that's a SCARY continuity error. Per everyone elses' posts, I too would like to believe that the Akira, Steamrunner, etc, are new classes.

------------------
"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism."

-Eleanor Arroway, "Contact" by Carl Sagan

 


Posted by TheF0rce (Member # 533) on :
 
yes, they're older
its true heheheheheheheheh
 
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
Well, nice of you to clear that up for us.

------------------
"Babies haven't any hair;
old men's heads are just as bare;
between the cradle and the grave
lies a haircut and a shave."

Samuel Hoffenstein
 


Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
 
Good point Andrew about hardly any top-of-the-line ships being there except for that Nebula and the E-E. I don't think that the 15 torpedo tubes probably not standard because look at the space is needed to give all those torpedo tubes a good enough torp. complement.

------------------
The whole concept of Survivor is get your average Joe and put him/her on the show and see how they react. Afterwards even though they did not win they make money by appearing on shows. There is no point in having to win a million dollars! They will make that amount in 2 months after appearing on 100 different shows!
 


Posted by Yakaspat The Trekker (Member # 355) on :
 
Well said Joshua. Also, I happen to like all those "ugly" ships from FC. In fact, they were a breathe of fresh air from all the Galaxy-bash ships.
 
Posted by Wes1701E (Member # 212) on :
 
quote:
Yakaspat The Trekker said:
Well said Joshua. Also, I happen to like all those "ugly" ships from FC. In fact, they were a breathe of fresh air from all the Galaxy-bash ships.

Well said, I loved seeing all the new ships in the trailers and seeing them in the movie.
 


Posted by Nimrod (Member # 205) on :
 
Matrix: "top-of-the-line-ships like the Nebula"

I hope you're joking. It's said to be even older than the Galaxy class, so it's most likely exceeding twenty years of service.
 


Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
 
...And the other "new" ships from First Contact were older still...

--Jonah
 


Posted by Light from a Cake (Member # 36) on :
 
Unless registries aren't chronological.
 
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
 
Which Mike (the guy who assigns the smegging things) says are generally chronological. That is, registries are assigned when a ship is ordered, but it takes longer to build a Galaxy than an Oberth so the Oberth will see service sooner.

But you can generally take it as read that a ship with a registry of 72015 (Sutherland -- a Nebula) is newer than a ship with a registry of 52136 (Appalachia -- a Steamrunner).

And I admit the Thunderchild, Yeager, and Budapest had marginally higher registries than the lowest known Nebula, but they were still in the low 60000s...

--Jonah
 


Posted by Killboy Powerhead (Member # 36) on :
 
Only the show is canon, everything is open to interpretation, etc. etc.
 
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
 
*deep breath*

[quietly] I know only the aired material is "canon". I know everything else is "pure conjecture". But I've been a Star Trek fan since the late-70s, and I have seen what a largely internally consistent fandom universe looks like. I know there are contradictions and errors, but those show up onscreen, too. Suffice it to say, including the stuff that wasn't onscreen added far more of benefit to the Trek universe than ignoring it does.

[still quietly] Now, granted all this is merely my own opinion, but I want to point out that I know the difference between "canon" and everthing else, and to my very-clear memory of all things with the Trek name on them to come along since 1970, to ignore all of that is to shoot yourself in the foot... repeatedly.

[yet still quietly] For reasons known only to him, Mike Okuda chose to arbitrarily assign dates to a number of things that fandom had almost completely agreed upon years before. He arbitrarily assigned new and confusing registry numbers to the rest of the Block I Constitutions that had been detailed for decades in fandom. He chose to amputate the novels and most (most, I say) of the Animated Series rather than do a bit of noodling to see if they might actually fit. Yes, that rankles me. No, I don't agree with his interpretation of Trek history. Yes, I know this doesn't matter much.

[no longer quietly] BUT FOR FUCK'S SAKE, PLEASE STOP BASHING ME OVER THE HEAD WITH THE "CANON" STICK!! I KNOW THE DIFFERENCE, AND I COULD GIVE A SHIT!! It won't make me stop in my attemps to remind/educate everyone on the "rest" of the Star Trek universe. So kindly stop trying to shove a set of blinders on my head.

[reasonably now] All of this "It's not canon *WHACK!*..." "That wasn't onscreen *WHACK!*..." dribble does not remove Ships of the Star Fleet or the Star Fleet Technical Manual or The Spaceflight Chronology or Starfleet Prototype or the Federation Reference Series from my bookshelf. These are creative and worthy additions to the Treknical universe, errors and all. I know not everyone has (or has access to) the same Treknical library I do. And I consider myself very fortunate to have acquired what I have mostly before the "canon-nazis" started getting their way at Paramount. But you don't give a gifted child a lobotomy just because not all the other kids are as smart as s/he is...


--Jonah

[ May 31, 2001: Message edited by: Peregrinus ]
 


Posted by Wes1701E (Member # 212) on :
 
To me, the Akira, Steamrunner, Saber, and Norway classes look newer then the galaxy, nebula, an so on. They have that certain newer feeling, they seem to be designed with a later style. They will always be newer ships to me, if not for the above reasons, then because they showed up later in the star trek universe.
 
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
 
I believe that anything that has not been said on screen and that does not contradict that was on screen can be considered semi-cannon until its proven wrong by on screen evidence. That way it leaves a creative 'gap' for us fans to think otu for ourselves.
 
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
 
Werd.
 
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
 
*sigh*
 
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
 
quote:
I believe that anything that has not been said on screen and that does not contradict that was on screen can be considered semi-cannon until its proven wrong by on screen evidence. That way it leaves a creative 'gap' for us fans to think otu for ourselves.

That's the kind of self-righteous fuzzy logic that allows the FASA nerds to fly into a near-immolatory fit of indignant rage whenever their precious clich�d worldview is threatened. . .
 


Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
 
Hope you're not calling me a FASA nerd... I did play the old FASA Trek RPG, but their approach to ships was worse even than Last Unicorn Games...

--Jonah
 


Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
 
Canon is canon you can't dipute canon unless canon contradicts canon, right? Then it is left to us to see whats wrong with those two cannopn items and arrange to make it logical, right?

I doubt anyone here actually thinks FASA is canon however some use their ideas to fill the 'gaps'. I use the 'Ships of the Fleet' to 'fill the gaps', so I guess I am a "self-righteous fuzzy logic" nerd right? Gee I thought all I was a devoted Trekkie/Trekker.

[ June 02, 2001: Message edited by: Matrix ]
 


Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :
 
Hi! I'm Grammar Dan! Here to help you with all your errors of a grammatical and spelling nature!

For all of you people who aren't sure how to spell it, or are too lazy to figure out how to spell it, or make chronic spelling mistakes, it is "canon" with one "n", not two.

"Canon" is "a body of rules, principles, etc.," that which you all have your shorts in an uproar about.

"Cannon" is that large projectile weapon, which in its heyday was deployed in a variety of situations.

There! My job here is done!
 




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