This is just one of several problems I have with more than one class ship. Forgive me though if this is old thread, or has been brought up before.
But basically my query is this: Where is the deflector dish on the Miranda Class? It has no visible, forward facing deflector at all, and i have often pondered this conundrum. The Constellation Class and Oberth also lack this obviously significant equipment. So what's with these classes? Perhaps they employ a different method for dispersing hazardous space material from the ships flight path.
Thoughts?
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
I think we did discuss this a long time ago. The decision reached was that these ships employed navigational deflective shielding only instead of a navigational deflective beam and shielding. Because of the low profile of the Miranda and Constellation class, this could be all that is necessary for them.
As for the Oberth, some people insist that it does have a deflector dish, albeit a funky one.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I've thought that maybe the silver-ish part of the Oberth's lower pod might be some sort of deflector system.
As for the Miranda, there are those two semi-circular projections on the forward-facing side of the aft section. (I'm talking about the long flat sides with the windows, facing forward.) Those could also be some sort of deflector system.
Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :
Those have been defined in the non-canon circles (ducks as rotten vegetables are thrown at him) as sensors of some sort. Take a look at Mr. Scott's Guide and Ships of the Star Fleet. (Neither of which I have on hand at the moment. I'm cleaning out my room.)
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Those circular thingamabobs that project forward of the aft elevated section of the saucer? Those are not phasers nor are they sensors. You see, one is a launch bay for the captain's personal workbee. The other (portside) is actually a very big window (it's only been seen shuttered) that is part of the captain's "loveshack." He has a big heart-shaped bed and a wet bar specially outfitted with aphrodesiacs. Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
Mmm, a deflector on the Miranda-class? Could it possibly resemble the one that a Galaxy-class starship has on it's saucer section? (See page 88 of the TNG Tech Manual). It's pretty small and is easy to miss - I first thought that the saucer deflector on the Enterprise-D were windows, until I got the manual that is. Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
....akb1979 had me scrambling for my Tech Manual... Interesting, a good point. I've often explained away the Miranda def dish mystery as being possibly to do with a number of small, barely noticed field emitter nodes that when combined together, provided all necessary forward facing deflector coverage. So perhaps indeed this is the type of system employed by Miranda, and some of it contemporaries.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Look under neith the Saucer section, see that blocky cluster in the middle? that would be the main sensor array, and where is the main sensor array on most ships? Oh look, theres a little slot facing forwards...its glowing white, I wonder what it does.
*sacasum mode odd*
yeah I know, there is one on the constellation too....but wy would the constitution need one?....*coughs* Sausersep *coughs* who knows...
Posted by The Vorlon (Member # 52) on :
It's really quite simple. The Miranda may not have a dish, but it still has the same emmiters as the Constitution II has around it's dish.
(sorry about the large files, but I figured it was necessary for effect) =P
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I'll bet the dish is more for projecting extreme-range beams rather than the simple deflector field. In most ships they tie the deflector into the dish to increase efficiency or distance or whatever, but not all ships would necessarily need that.
Posted by MIB (Member # 426) on :
I always thought that the larger ships had deflector dishes where as the smaller ships had deflector grids that where a part of the outer hull plating. That was what I always assumed anyways.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The Miranda is hardly alone in not having a dish. Most ships don't. Big glowing deflector dishes seem to be a Federation luxury.
Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
Reverend: The cluster beneath the saucer may include a sensor array, but this is also either a phaser array or torpedo launcher in the later Miranda variants.
The Vorlon: Nice picture representation, but if the Constitution has those features AND a deflector dish, it would seem to point those nodes as being separate from the dish, as the Miranda has them too, but of course no dish. They could well be sensor arrays.
Posted by The Vorlon (Member # 52) on :
I agree with Sol. Dishes are not absolutely necessary for Navigatonal Deflector systems, as indicated by the abundance of designs without dishes. Dishes are likely an enhancement which can be added to designs to increase the power or range of the deflectors, perhaps to allow for higher warp speeds or just increased protection for the more 'upper class' designs such as expensive and crew-heavy Galaxies, Sovereigns, Excelsiors, etc. Smaller, weaker ships like Mirandas and Oberths just don't need them.
In the case of the Constitution here, I'd argue that it's no coincidence that those nodes/emmiters are in such close proximity to the Deflector Dish. They are likely meant to operate together and perform similar functions.
And since the nodes/emmiters are the only similar piece of this Deflector setup visible on the Miranda, one could therefor assume that the modes are the really important pieces of a Nav Deflector system.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I agree with Vorlon. I have long assumed that these were associated with the miranda's lack of a deflector dish. Perhaps the dish's function is done by that ventral platform while those other bitstake up the slack (or vice versa)
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
"It's really quite simple. The Miranda may not have a dish, but it still has the same emmiters as the Constitution II has around it's dish."
Er, surely the Constitution II has 3 of them, and the Miranda has 2?
Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
The sections on the Miranda picture that are circled - didn't the Reliant fire phasers from there during its first attack on the Enterprise?
Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :
GAH! Where in the universe did you get that idea?! Phaser fire from there? No! Never!!
Okay, finally found Mr. Scott's Guide. And while I KNOW it's considered noncanon, a lot of stuff in here makes relative sense. According to this, those are called space-energy field attraction sensors. According to Ships of the Star Fleet, they are QIK-28 sensor modules.
And about that cluster on the bottom of the saucer, are you referring to the lower navigation dome and associated equipment? Eh, because if you are, the "little white slot" facing forward is something we like to call a "light" in layman's terms. See? It projects onto the hull to make the ship's name and registry visible.
Posted by The Vorlon (Member # 52) on :
Liam:
Well, the front profile of a Constitution II is larger than a Miranda's, therefore, the C II needs 3 emmiters.
???
Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :
If you take a look at that dorsal view of the Reliant, there ARE three of those sensor/emitter things. Two port and starboard on the surface of the primary hull and one sitting on top of the photon-torpedo pod. All three are identical.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Sorry Adam. I misread it as "the same NUMBER of thingies".
I will shut up now.
Posted by crobato (Member # 542) on :
There is a similar thread right now on trekbbs.com about the location of the Miranda's deflector. It's got pictures.
Daniel, you are absolutely right! I never once noticed that there are three of those devices on the Reliant. I bet those are the Miranda's navigational deflection system since, like Adam proves, those exist on the Constitution refit.
But this still leaves the question open for the Constellations and other culture's ships that have no deflector dish or devices of a similar nature.
Plus, this leads to the questions of the auxiliary crafts. The Type 9/Class 2 shuttles and Data's scout ship have deflector dishes. However, the runabouts and other shuttles (the pods, Type 6/7/8) don't appear to have a navigational deflector system either. Okay, I may be wrong about the runabouts.
Posted by targetemployee (Member # 217) on :
For this discussion, are we using the terms as understood by people in the 24th century or the 23rd century?
In the 23rd century, starships had deflector shields or screens and navigation beams.
Deflector shields or screens were used during battle or emergency situations.
Navigation beams were used for clearing a 'path' in front of a ship, like a bow wake, and for gathering sensor data.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I gather that what we are looking for are devices that can create the beams that sweep the path clear of larger debris. The devices that generate more generic, englobing shields (whether for navigation or combat) can be assumed to be invisible to the exterior, or only manifesting as that "shield grid" that has become inseparable of Sternbach-era starship design.
If we accept the grey domes of the Constitution-refit and the Miranda as the actual sweep-beam emitters, then we could just as well accept the two rather large domes on the underside of the Constellation saucer as similar emitters. They look extremely well placed for such a function, and seem to have similarly flattened/angled forward surfaces. See here: there are two pairs of domes to choose from.
And if we start believing in under-saucer domes, then we have a deflector for USS Centaur, too. That leaves only one TOS-movie era ship without an obvious domed deflector beam emitter - the Excelsior, which has the blue dish but not hte grey domes. OTOH, "Generations" also establishes canonically that the dish *is* called the navigational deflector...
Timo Saloniemi
P.S. "Exhibit C" in that trekbbs.com thread is the one that shows the single ventral aft phasers on the impulse engine assembly, the ones I've been ranting about now and then. Now what the heck happened to those phasers in later versions of the model? Who removed them? Or added them for this photo? Why?
[ June 25, 2001: Message edited by: Timo ]
Posted by crobato (Member # 542) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: P.S. "Exhibit C" in that trekbbs.com thread is the one that shows the single ventral aft phasers on the impulse engine assembly, the ones I've been ranting about now and then. Now what the heck happened to those phasers in later versions of the model? Who removed them? Or added them for this photo? Why?
[ June 25, 2001: Message edited by: Timo ]
Good point. Maybe I'm going back there and douse them with cold water.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
What are those 2 blue squares on the side at the Constellation class pic?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I don't know what the two blue squares on the side are, but there's a large blue rectangle-ish thing on the forward edge of the Constellation's saucer in Timo's pic there...I've always assumed that is the deflector.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
According to the Fact Files this is the shuttle bay.
Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
Where was I looking? A bit further up on the role bar - 45 mins into Star Trek II the Reliant fires it's phasers from half-way up the support bar that holds the torpedo launchers. I was mistaken - sorry.
Posted by MIB (Member # 426) on :
I think those dishes are what clears a path for a starship. I purpose 2 theries for the smaller ships with out one.
A: They are using older, less powerful deflector grids that are a part of the outer hull plating. The are basically sweaping a clear path in all diretions for the ship.
B: They DO have deflector dishes, but they are inside some null hull space. Much in the way that our doppler radars are incased in those domes.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Oo! Fun subject...
*ahem*
TOS: First off, in Matt Jeffries' scribblings on the original Enterprise, the big parabolic dish was the "Main Sensor". The three boxes flanking the dish mount are usually unlabeled, but in a couple places they are labelled sensors, and in others labelled deflectors. The dome on the bottom of the saucer was the "Planetary Sensor Dome". As Gene created the terminology for the show, "Deflectors" were part of the navigational system and "shields" were part of the defense system.
TMP: Still proceeding on Matt Jeffries' original design, Andy Probert made the new main sensor a more powerful enclosed unit and expanded the planetary sensor dome to include portions of the ship's self-illumination system. He also changed the transparant dome on the bridge to a navigational sensor dome. Nothing is really done on the issue of defensive or navigational systems beyond the comment in the wormhole that the deflectors aren't working.
TWOK: Shows us there's a separate defense field covering the bridge superstructure. Shows us conformal shields as a bridge display, referring specifically to them as such.
TSFS/TVH: Nothing new here.
TNG: A new ship that has presumably integrated the main sensors and navigational deflectors into a single unit. In the pilot, Worf states "shields and deflectors up". Once again, we have reinforcement of the original tenet that shields and deflectors are not the same thing.
Later in the first season, we see the first appearance of bubble shields. No dialogue given to them in any of their appearances.
TFF: Different graphic for the shield monitor on the bridge. That's about it.
DS9: Hardly ever see bubble shields any more. Return to conformal shields.
TUC: Much use of conformal shields. No bubble shields in evidence.
GEN: Dialogue references main deflector dish. Based on chronological history of ship design to this point, I posit the Excelsior class is the first to integrate the deflector systems with the main sensor dish.
VOY/FC/INS: Irrelevent to this discussion thus far.
CONCLUSIONS: There are not, nor ever have been, any such thing in Star Trek as "deflector shields".
The deflectors are a vital part of the navigational systems and are incorporated into every ship, out of necessity. In earlier ships, they were enclosed in discrete hull mountings. In later designs, they were merged with the main long-range sensor dish to mutual benefit of both systems, I am assuming...
Defensive systems seems to have always been of two types. The "shields" are a sort of hard energy projected just beoyond the hull and acting as a sort of ablative layer to the hull itself. "Screens" are more murky, not getting as much screen time or supporting material as shields... The defense fields from TWOK may fall into this category or not. It is unclear how they functioned. The screens are probably the projected bubbles seen through much of TNG and act as a first-line defense of the ship, but are comparatively weaker than shields, and also of only real defensive value against phasers and slow-moving objects. These may be the nested deflector bubbles diagrammed in the TNG TM.
Thoughts?
--Jonah
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
This is kind of relevent/not relevent/quasi-relevent, etc. but I always found it interesting that shield displays on the bridge in TWOK and STV showed how the Enterprise-A had new and improved shielding from the previous ship.(You know, how in STII the shields were shown as a little dotted line which tarced around the outline of the ship, and in STV it was shown as three successive layers of shielding which sort of bubbled outwards around the ship.)
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I think "shields" and "screens" are just two words for the same thing. And shields are, in full, "deflector shields". That's not the same as the "navigational deflector", of course. They just both have "deflector" in them ('cause that's what they do: deflect stuff).
Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :
I think you're correct, TSN. I have a question: was the terms "screens" or "deflector screens" ever used after TOS or TAS? I don't think so. If they were not referenced to in TNG, DS9, and VOY, then we can assume that they are not seperate from deflector shields, just alternate terminology.
From the Encyclopedia: deflectors. Energy field used to protect starships and other vessels from harm resulting from natural hazards or enemy attack. SEE: shields.
There are thus two types of deflectors. Navigational deflectors and deflector shields, the former used generally to sweep aside fragmetary debris, and the latter mainly used to defend against weaponry and large objects.
Also excerpted from the Encyclopedia: shields. ...also referred to as deflectors, deflector shields, or screens.
So, there HAS been something known as "deflector shields." HA! I knew it! It's just (again) alternate terminology for the deflectors.
