...The Lexington or the Endeavour? Is there anyway to tell?
[ July 16, 2001: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
It's a Xoom
Moving on...
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
hehe...
...sorry 'bout that. I've fixed it.
[ July 16, 2001: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
Sorry, still can't see it. Maybe it's the dang computer.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Okay, It should work now. I've used a different site.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I know it's a real tosser thing to do, but I'm going to do it anyway.
It's the Enterprise-E.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
LOL
I meant the frigging Nebula you frigging stand up comedian!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
LOL.
I love the arguments between you to. Anyway, we probably will never tell, although I think it's the Endeavour. Where did we hear the Lexington was at the FC battle? Radio chatter? (I think I see a registry on the Nebula. Very faint...)
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I wouldn't be surprised if it's actually the Farragut, as far as the registry and such are concerned.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Why the Farragut?
Posted by PopMaze (Member # 302) on :
Because they probably didn't bother to remove or fully change the labeling since the last Nebula appearance, which was in "Generations" as the Farragut.
And it could go either way as to being the Lexington or the Endeavour. We see no other Nebula and these two names we know to be Nebulas.
[ July 17, 2001: Message edited by: PopMaze ]
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:Because they probably didn't bother to remove or fully change the labeling
The Generations-Farragut was a physical model. Isn't this Nebula from First Contact a CGI model?
[ July 17, 2001: Message edited by: Spike ]
Posted by PopMaze (Member # 302) on :
At that angle, there's no certain way to tell if it's the physical or CGI model, but looking at the shape of the secondary hull around the main deflector, I'd say it was the physical model.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Going strictly from the stories and not the actual model labeling and such, I think (repeat I think) that Nebula is supposed to be the Lexington. If I remember correctly (read: I ain't too sure), the Endeavour was supposed to be a ship of a new class that was eventually dropped. The Endeavour was also supposed to be Admiral Hayes' flagship, and it was destroyed prior to the arrival of the Enterprise-E.
I couldn't find anything online to back that up because my searches came back with thousands of hits. ::shrug:: I think that's how it was supposed to go down. I'm sure someone will dogpile me here if I'm wrong.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I don't think they'd even "built" the CGI Nebula model at this stage. Remember the lack of Nebula's in DS9's early CGI battle sequences? IIRC, the first appearence of the CGI Nebula was in "Duet", which first appeared over a year after First Contact.
If they'd had CGI Nebula's before then, they'd have used them in SofA. Thinking about it, it's possible that they started making the CGI model with the aim of getting it finished for SofA, but failed. It would explain why it appeared a short while later.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Siggie's right, I remember now. The Endeavour in FC was going to be a new ship, but it was never built or put in the film. So, the bit about the Endeavour came to be associated w/ the Nebula-class. (IIRC, this was later backed up by "Scorpion" [VGR])
General Veers, the Lexington was mentioned in the radio chatter, reporting 96 dead and 22 wounded. So I think this must be the Lexington.
TSN, I think the Excelsior-class Farragut was in service by the time of FC, but I can't be sure...
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:96 dead and 22 wounded
Yes, that's why I doubt that this is the Lexington. This Nebula doesn't look damaged.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Yeah, but she and the endeavour were the only Nebbies there. We know it wasn't intended to be the E, so it must be the L. Maybe the damage was concentrated in the rear, or it was something internal, or something.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
I would also like to point that there is still some debate over whether the ship in question is the Lexington or Lexicon. Apparently, some of the closed-captioning for First Contact had "Lexicon" written across the screen.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Thats closed caption for you. It goes on what it sounds like rather than the script.
Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
My DVD says LEXINGTON. Also, that's how we got the USS Madison, commanded by Cmdr. Luxby. Said it in the closed captioning Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I think LEXICON was just from what people heard, like MANSON. But both closed-captions and script said LEXINGTON and MADISON. The latter, I believe, are both correct.
And now I'm pretty sure that the Nebbie must be the Lexington.
Thanks, guys.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
The Endeavor couldn't have been Admiral Hayes' flagship -- the first sentence of the radio chatter said "Flagship to Endeavor... stand by to engage at..."
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
I was just bringing up the backstory and previous arguments we've had on this board about the First Contact battle scene. I felt that the information was pertinent to the discussion.
Wait! Where was the Nebula in "Duet?" I don't recall one. And there was a Nebula in SoA, just at the end, after the battle
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Er, "Waltz", not "Duet." Silly me.
IIRC, there were two shots of DS9 after the battle in SofA. One ws from Way of the Warrior. I assume you mean the other one. I think it showed DS9 with a Nebula apparently docked at one of the outer rings. It's a near stationary shot, so it's almost certainly the physical model.
I meant if they had a CGI Nebbie, they'd have used it in the battle scenes in SofA, which were pretty much ALL CGI. There was none.
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
Yeah. I think they finally put one in "The Changing Face of Evil."
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"TSN, I think the Excelsior-class Farragut was in service by the time of FC, but I can't be sure..."
I said that it was probably still labelled as the Farragut, not that it was actually intended to be the Farragut.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Yeah. Forgot. Posted by PopMaze (Member # 302) on :
Here's what I think now. It's most likely to be Endeavour as from the radio chatter, it's certainly not the flagship. The Lexington already has numerous crew injuries and deaths and so would already be damaged in a few places (doubtful if it was only confined to the aft). It's most likely the physical model as it looks like the CGI version had not yet been made. However, I no longer think it's still labelled as the Farragut. I believe it's labelled as the Leeds because after "Generations", the model was hauled out and relabelled as the Leeds for the new opening sequence for DS9's 4th season when Worf first appears. (Was it Okuda that said the Nebbie was the Leeds?) Remember, FC takes place after "Way of the Warrior", which was the season premiere for the 4th season. Of course, it's also possible that the labels were removed and no new labels were applied, but previous model appearances don't indicate that. (i.e. Hood still labelled as Excelsior, or Tsiolkovsky still labelled as Grissom.)
And now that I think on it, it doesn't even have to be the Endeavour. It actually could be the Leeds. There's no evidence to say that she wasn't there. The name may not have been in dialog or the rest of the script, but there's no evidence that places the Leeds elsewhere at the time.
[ July 17, 2001: Message edited by: PopMaze ]
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
It was Okuda who revealed the identity of the Leeds, I believe. But I think it's been in the DS9 credits right from the start, the presence of a Nebula docked with the station has always been there.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Argh.. I typed this response without reading the second and third pages, so forgive the needless repetition.
Point the first: I'm almost positive it's physical. As noted by pretty much everyone, the Nebbie wasn't CGI'ed until "Waltz" to serve as the Honshu.
Point the second: Considering that at the time the model went off-duty and did the exhibition circuit it was labelled as the Leeds (IIRC this is where the name first cropped up, with confirmation that the model had indeed been labelled as such for the DS9 opening credits coming later) and that the VFX work for the DS9 credits was done between Generations and First Contact, this Nebbie almost has to be the Leeds, no? It seems unlikely it would be relabeled for what is essentially a "cameo" role in First Contact and then be labelled back to what it had been before and sent out to the exhibitions, with nobody even knowing whether the ships had even appeared onscreen as the Leeds in the first place...
[ July 18, 2001: Message edited by: The_Tom ]
Posted by targetemployee (Member # 217) on :
After watching the battle, I think the Nebula is the USS Leeds.
There has been a question about the identity of the Miranda Class starship in Generations. If we assume that the Miranda or Mirandas seen in First Contact are this model, we may have a slight lead.
As the USS Defiant approaches the Borg cube, we see in the northeast corner of the screen a lone Miranda. This ship is seen from the bottom. She makes a run at the Borg cube, fires weapons, turns to her port, and retreats. I have this much of her registry: NCC-xxxxx. Can we get a high-resolution picture of this ship? Thank you.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
The last use of the Miranda had been in WotW, (yikes, they must have restored the Saratoga-modification to the original configuration for just that one weeny shot) so I imagine again its got the same markings as whatever that ship had...
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:Can we get a high-resolution picture of this ship?
I have FC on DVD. So, if you tell me how to make a high-resolution picture, I'll try it.
Posted by targetemployee (Member # 217) on :
Spike, On another thread, a person write that high resolution threads were possible on DVD. This ship appears in Chapter 4, 2.16 to 2.18.
When the person, you or someone else does the 'capture', look at the right edge of the screen. You will see a Miranda Class starship speed to the Borg ship, turn to the port, and head off from the battle in an oblique angle. The registry is briefly visible at 2.18.
Posted by targetemployee (Member # 217) on :
Spike, On another thread, a person write that high resolution scans were possible on DVD. This ship appears in Chapter 4, 2.16 to 2.18.
When the person, you or someone else does the 'capture', look at the right edge of the screen. You will see a Miranda Class starship speed to the Borg ship, turn to the port, and head off from the battle in an oblique angle. The registry is briefly visible at 2.18.
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
Damn, I really should read the 2nd and 3rd page before posting...
[ July 18, 2001: Message edited by: Dax ]
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
I know which Miranda but I need some advice to make a usefull screenshot. Usually I use the screenshot-tool of my DVD-Player, but those screenshots look like that: http://flareupload.hypermart.net/files/fc_miranda.jpg Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Dude, you guys all got the jump on me.
I'll just re-hash anyways:
The last thing that the physical Nebula model was known to be labeled with is U.S.S. Leeds NCC-70352, from the fourth and fifth season DS9 opening credits. So, if the FC ship is the physical model, it will be the Leeds. However, are we absolutely sure it's not CGI, because that would make sense, seeing as how most of the other ships from FC (Akira, Saber, Steamrunner, Norway, Ent-E [In some shots], Defiant [same], and possibly Miranda) were CGI. But, if you're correct about the CGI Nebbie first appearing as the Honshu, then that theory is out.
In any case, the ship in question is supposed to represent the Lexington, I believe.
Posted by PopMaze (Member # 302) on :
Mim, in your opinion, it's the Lexington, but so far there's no evidence to say it has to be Lexington or Endeavour. In fact, from what we can deduce, it's the Leeds. There's no info that says that the Leeds could not have been there.
[ July 18, 2001: Message edited by: PopMaze ]
[ July 18, 2001: Message edited by: PopMaze ]
Posted by targetemployee (Member # 217) on :
Background In "Interface", the USS Hera has 300 crew members. An encyclopedia entry identifies this ship as Nebula Class.
First Contact In the first minutes of battle, the USS Lexington, a Nebula Class starship, suffered casualities: Dead-99 Wounded-42 ------------------ Total-141
This is 47% of her crew that were either dead or wounded. Lexington was frelled and couldn't the party at Earth.
[ July 18, 2001: Message edited by: targetemployee ]
Posted by Stingray (Member # 621) on :
300 for a Nebbie??? If the thing must have very nearly the same internal volume and how the hell do they have 700 less people? BTW - fewer decks my ass.
Same saucer = Same decks
Same saucer w/ less windows = Same saucer w/ less windows
Posted by Caulfield (Member # 521) on :
Ok, I've got an image of the Miranda-class from the DVD, but I don't know how to show it here: Can someone contact me, so I can send you the picture and you post it in this forum?
As you will see, the regestry number is not clearly visiby, but in my opinion, there are only 4 digits on the hull. And, the warp nacelles are not glowing.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Who said the Hera was fully manned? Just because on nebbie has that number of people aboard, doesn't mean they all do. Point in case the U.S.S. Grissom NCC-42857 was an excelsior-class ship, which is alot smaller than a Nebula & had a few thousand aboard as I recall.
besides it was 22 wounded I belive.
[ July 18, 2001: Message edited by: Reverend ]
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
quote:(yikes, they must have restored the Saratoga-modification to the original configuration for just that one weeny shot)
They didn't. Although the Lantree and the Brattain were re-uses of the original Reliant model, the Saratoga was an all-new model built specifically for "Emissary." Actually, there were several Saratogas built for the ep, each one blown apart by the VFX guys until they got one to blow up just the way they wanted it to for the scene. I know this because I saw a documentary on the making of "Emissary." You can also see that the detail on the Saratoga model has subtle differences from the Reliant.
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
If I recall, Reverend, the Grissom mentioned in "Field of Fire" had 1,210 people on it,and only 5 survived when it was destroyed. If it's the Excelsior, than that's a lot of people for that class of ship. Maybe it was transporting people or something. That brings up another point: why didn't they offload Jennifer and Jake Sisko from the Saratoga bafore going into battle at Wolf 359? Why have civilians on board when you know you're going to fight the Borg?
Posted by PopMaze (Member # 302) on :
Could it be that the Saratoga during the combat scenes was the modified version of the Reliant, while the exploding scene was a new model that could be blown up?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
That would make sense. It's what they did for "Cause and Effect".
You know, I can't remember how the Saratoga exploded, but I thought it was the old "overlay the explosion on top so we don't have to damage the model" type explosion. Did it actually blow apart?
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
A few years ago, Discovery used to show a program called Movie Magic. One of the episodes dealt with the special effects for DS9's "Emissary." Here's how the Saratoga's explosion was done:
The effects crew under Rob Legato (I believe, it has been a while) made three models of the Saratoga. These were hollow and of lesser quality construction than the actual filming miniature. These models were loaded with explosion packets, flame packs, and primacord. The Saratoga was hung from the rafters of a warehouse so that the bow pointed to the ceiling. A high speed camera was set up under the model pointing up at the aft of the Saratoga (there was maybe five to ten feet between the two). The model was exploded as the camera rolled. It took all three models to get the explosion just right.
As for the Saratoga still having some civilians on-board, it was a mad-dash effort to just get the 40 ships are so that were at Wolf 359. If the Saratoga was on patrol and got the message to immediately report to Wolf 359, she probably wouldn't have had time to offload the civilians at a nearby starbase or planet.
As for the Grissom, I don't know. I've always assuming that she was transporting troops, too.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
By the way, for whoever (if anyone) is going to do the screen captures during the Sector 001 fight scene in First Contact, here's a picture of the aft part of the ship targetemployee's talking about (look in the top right corner):
I still own a copy of that episode, so if it needs to be checked for anything...
Posted by Stingray (Member # 621) on :
So is there a conclusion as to the FC Miranda? And what is that starship in the upper left with the Borg tractor beam? Ain't look nuthin' like mine eyes ever saw.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:And what is that starship in the upper left with the Borg tractor beam?
That's an Akira.
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
I believe that's a nacelle of an Akira.
Posted by Stingray (Member # 621) on :
Sure? It looks like the nacelles are integrated at the Bussard collectors.
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
Pretty sure, Stingray. Watch the scene again.
Posted by Michael_T (Member # 144) on :
That is the Akira Class USS Thunderchild. As for the Miranda Class, it maybe the CGI model that ILM made for the scene which needed background ships. And the Defiant was not a CGI version, it was the physical model itself. The damage on the Defiant was CGI, which is stated in the TNG Movie Sketch Book. Besides, have you seen Foundation Imaging's CGI Nebula Class? Go to their website and look in the gallery.
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
I don't think that's the Thunderchild, Mike, but it is an Akira class. You'll remember that the Akira was seen later firing on the Borg cube, and the one in the tractor beam was destroyed. Just watched that scene, and saw that the Miranda had no visible name or registry. If it did, it was very small. One would wonder, (off the topic) how Admiral Hayes escaped the destruction of his ship. Escape pod? they made it seem like he was killed.
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
Oops. I meant to say, "You'll remember the Thunderchild was seen later firing on the Borg cube."
