Some time in the past I remember reading a post about the starfleet tugs seen in DS9. It's seen in 'A time to stand' I think. In that post I remember something was mentioned about it having Romulan nacelles. What I was wondering is, was it a comment on what was used to make up the ship model and they were just slapped on by some ship designer or were they actually meant to be there? If they were actually meant to be part of the ship, why the hell would the Romulans allow the Federation to use their technology? Even if it was old. And there is ofcourse the chance that this guy was wrong and my whole question is pointless. But what the heck, since I remembered , its been bugging me.
However, we do see it on the underside of the sydneymodel.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I can virtually guarantee you that those are nacelles from ERTL's Rommie Warbird model being used on that tug model. At least, I'll bet that's what they started out as. I believe you can also see a runabout pod on the top there.
However, they also look a little like K'Tinga Nacelles.
Whatever, they are, the answer is, yes, the tug, like the other new ships seen during the duration of DS9's run, was a kitbash of existing models.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Do you know what, this Tug discussion got me thinking... why did they need all those people to do that POINTLESS kit-bashing!?! There are so many good model makers out there - some who have shown their work here... why not just seek some of them out - if they are going to use ERTL model sets on film, then some of the models that people have made, of things like the Cheyenne and the New Orleans class ships would be WAY better quality - even for background use. I'm sure that some people would be willing to let their own 'work' be used for FREE! It'd be an honour! But no, they have to go and make these CRAPOLA designs that are just WRONG!
Andrew
Posted by Wes1701E (Member # 212) on :
it takes less time to throw parts together, therefore less money.
Posted by Michael_T (Member # 144) on :
It's that and I don't think Berman wants to have fans near the sets.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Dealing with outside 'talent' would invlove so many legal issues, security risks, insanity and union problems, it'd be som much more trouble than it's worth.
So you're down to salaried, contract help.
They're going to do whatever is cheapest. Hense, the kitbashin'.
That said, when kitbashing is done well, I don't see a problem with it. I have no problem with the Centaur or the Shelley Class. I even sort of like the Yeager Class.
Posted by Michael_T (Member # 144) on :
Just as long as I don't see some of the kitbashes in the DS9TM onscreen.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Yeah, that DS9 hated continuity and the fans. Ira Steven Behr is the devil!
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
quote:Originally posted by Michael_T: Just as long as I don't see some of the kitbashes in the DS9TM onscreen.
But the Yeager, Centaur, and the tug all appear on DS9... *cries*
Posted by Kosa (Member # 650) on :
So it is a kitbash. Thanks guys for clearing this up.
Posted by Michael_T (Member # 144) on :
I actually like the Yeager, Centaur, and to a point the Curry Class. It's the other kitbashes in the book that make me wanna vomit.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Well, the Freedomesque Constitution bash isn't so bad. And that Intrepid one is actually just a poor drawing of the Voyager prototype which looks better than the DS9TM would have you think. So, the only real abomination is the so-called "Medusa", which I freely admit is crap...
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Then again, since we know that so many of the pictures are inaccurate, it may be that the three-naceller one is in reality quite different, too.
I kind of doubt the Voyager study model was really used in "A Time to Stand". Since the Yeager was a kitbash of a Voyager scale model, it seems possible that the Connie/Intrepid mongrel was one of those, too. With the other ships, Drexler used minimum effort and cut-and-pasted elemets from existing ship pictures to create the mongrels, stretching some elements if necessary, but rarely adding custom pieces. So why does the Connie/Intrepid mixture have a customized secondary hull that isn't lifted directly from any existing picture and does not much resemble the secondary hull of the Voyager study model?
I suspect this *is* pretty much how the ship really looked like. The scale relationships between the parts may be off, though, just like the Yeager has slightly too large nacelles wrt the real thing.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
That's exactly what I wonder Timo. I've never been able to figure out where that part came from. I don't have the book in front of me, but as I recall it wasn't all the complex a shape, so it's possible that he just made it up in Illustrator. But none of the other ships appear to have custom parts. Why here?
The world may never know.
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
Well the Centaur did have the greeblies underneath the saucer and on the underside of the weapons pod.
I emailed Rick Sternbach about the models, but he had no information whatsoever other than that he really didn't like the concept of kitbashing. He did not consider these models to be true starships (i.e. good quality models made by Jein, Meininger, etc.)
And IIRC, the only fan-built starship model ever used was the Pasteur, and even that ship was built by someone who had built previous models for Star Trek in the past: Bill George.
[ August 16, 2001: Message edited by: Dukhat ]
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
It looks to me like a pretty standard Connie-refit engineering hull, just stretched a little and melded with the Intrepid aft-end.
Posted by Gammera (Member # 518) on :
YA know the tug looks kinda klingon to me, any one think of that!
Posted by Stingray (Member # 621) on :
What I'm wondering is why they went to the trouble of cutting up a Voyager model for background shots instead of just using a Voyager model? What's the big deal with a regular Intrepid class? Or take a Cheyenne or New Orleans and use that for background!
Goddamn - WHY ARE PEOPLE SO STUPID?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Probably because they wanted something that looked different.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Probably because they wanted something that looked different."
Why? No-one could see it!
"Well the Centaur did have the greeblies underneath the saucer and on the underside of the weapons pod."
But it didn't. He left those out. Hell, he left the whole pod out...
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I suspect somebody at first thought it would be a good idea to kitbash a lot of new designs to give the war fleets some "depth". Eager amateurs then got into it. And the somebody who had ordered the kitbashing was so appalled by the poor quality that he or she ordered the ships to be filmed only on the distant background. He or she just didn't want to outright throw away the models so as not to insult the well-meaning co-workers.
I wonder if it is easier to film a kitbash today than it was during TNG. You don't necessarily have to build in the lighting now - you can add it in post-production with computers. The Centaur model, even though seen up close, may have been a very simple empty shell of plastic.
It could also be that at that point, the best way to show a damaged ship (say, the "Frederickson" Excelsior under tow) was to build an inexpensive kit, damage it, and film it with some CGI add-on lighting effects. While the modelers were at it, they decided they could use the leftover parts of all the kits they had bought to create some new designs...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Gammera: Yes. Everyone's thought of that. The tug is probably Klingon. However, the Fact Files make it look like it's a Federation ship. On screen it appears to have a greenish color, and I'm almost positive that the "nacelles" it has are either Rommie Warbird nacelles or K'tinga nacelles.
Oh, and I think the reason for not using Intrepids or Sovvies in DS9 had alot to do with the studio. They didn't want to use Voyager's or TNG's ship on DS9 for whatever dumb reason. I don't know how they got permission to make the Bellerophon an Intrepid.
[ August 17, 2001: Message edited by: Aban Rune ]
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
From what I read in the DS9 Companion, they were originally going to re-use the Defiant as the Bellerophon, a la the Valiant. However, someone wanted the ship to be more "stately" per its mision into Romulan space, so they asked the Voyager crew for their permission to use the Intrepid CGI model.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
OK, PAYING people for their ships would be a nightmare - what about a limited donation - no strings attached... why would someone lending their model to the Star Trek production mean that there would be any fans on set - moreover there'd probably end up being a fan at Image G - or where ever they ended up doing the model filming later in DS9.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
You'd still have to spend the time finding the ships to use, hoping that they were actually high enough quality (if you're talking about physical models), and dealing with people that you have no control over.
The approval process (i.e. the studio asks for minor changes in the model) would be an absolute nightmare. Basically, there's no way they're going to deal with a situation that they don't have control over from start to finish.
Plus you'd probably have union issues on top of all that.
This is just me talking. I really have no insight into the industry. It's just my guess.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
A filming model is INfinitely different than one built by a fan, even the lighted ones. The composition, light source, power source, & structural tolerances are SO completely different between the 2.
Posted by Michael_T (Member # 144) on :
Fans could always have Bill George make their models for them. The again it would cost an arm and a leg then.
But what the heck, since I remembered , its been bugging me.
The tug is probably Klingon. However, the Fact Files make it look like it's a Federation ship. On screen it appears to have a greenish color, and I'm almost positive that the "nacelles" it has are either Rommie Warbird nacelles or K'tinga nacelles.