I keep rewatching clips of "Shattered Mirror" and "Paradise Lost", yet can't decide from where the aft torpedoes were launched. They are always shown from a distance, making their exact locations impossible to determine.
"Shattered Mirror": the entire aft surface of the tail glows yellow (imagine Drexler's engines actually working). The glow subsides, and a photon torpedo emerges from somewhere on the *port* side of the tail. Certainly not from the blueprint/MSD locations. You could be convinced into thinking that the torpedo came out of the left impulse "red-light", unless you freeze-framed the video and saw the torpedo coming from elsewhere.
"Paradise Lost": reruning the scene about ten times convinces the eye that the photon torpedo was fired *aft* from the ventral side of the *forward* starboard quantum launcher. Freeze-framing the video, however, shows this to be an optical illusion -- however, the torpedo still came out from somewhere on the starboard side, between the nacelles.
It can't be all the way aft because the glow preceding the launch grows so big as to cover the forward quantum launcher (hence the illusion). A glow starting at the very aft would have to be impossibly huge to do this.
I wonder whether the VFX crews wanted the torpedoes to come out of the left "impulse red-light" and the forward quantum launcher, respectively, and relied on optical illusions to convince the viewers of this. Is the freeze-frame a more valid evidence?
Another thing. Those "impulse red-lights" are not always glowing red. Sometimes they're dark. It could be an argument for an alternate impulse system in the tail, and aft launchers in the dark holes. On the other hand, a huge aft torpedo bay could also be in the tail, replacing Drexler's engines.
[ October 10, 2001: Message edited by: Phelps ]
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
I seem to remember aft quantorps firing from the two little nubbins atop the engine blocks. And WHY do people still insist that quantorps require a separate special launcher?
Posted by Phelps (Member # 713) on :
These were photon torpedoes in both cases.
Actually, you need only one instance of photon torpedoes firing from a quantum launcher to disprove that notion. Unfortunately, we haven't seen such a case yet, unless we ignore the freeze-frame of "Paradise Lost". The VFX crews in both FC and DS9 have been pretty consistent about where certain torps come from. But we know that quantorps and photorps use the exact same casing ("Valiant"), so it might not be a problem.
[ October 10, 2001: Message edited by: Phelps ]
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
quote:Originally posted by Phelps: But we know that quantorps and photorps use the exact same casing ("Valiant"), so it might not be a problem.
Just one of the many things the DS9TM tried to tell us otherwise.
Might be a bit easier to figure out if we were sure just what the major differences are between Photon and Quantum torpedoes.
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
I've got "Paradise Lost" and "Shattered Mirror" on video and have extensively studied the aft torp firings. Unfortunately I've never come to any solid conclusion as to where the torps originate from.
Video tapes just don't give enough detail in these situations, and pausing just makes things worse. What we really need is for these eps to be released on DVD. Oh well.
Regarding quantum torpedos - have we ever seen these fired at warp? I don't think we have. It occured to me that maybe one difference between photorps and quantorps is that the ps are capable of warp while the qs are not. This might explain why the Defiant quantorp launcher modules are so small and how the Ent-E main launcher basically has no tube (Captain's Yacht). Just a thought anyway.
Posted by Phelps (Member # 713) on :
I watched media files where the freeze-frame is no problem. The "Paradise Lost" sequence is at www.maximumdefiant.com. However, DVDs would give us higher resolution.
Your theory could be right for as long as an upcoming movie doesn't show a quantum torpedo at warp; the problem is in the lack of warp chase sequences in DS9 and FC, where we had quantum torpedoes. It doesn't seem to be a limitation the writers would like -- I think that so far, they primarily want quantum torpedoes to be more powerful, and maybe they'll invent other aspects in an upcoming movie.
However, I wonder what happened to packs of ten torpedoes launched at once yet targeted differently ("Yesterday's Enterprise"), or simply torpedoes launched straight, curving around to the actual target. You wouldn't need all the extra launchers or rotating turrets seen in recent shows.
[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: Phelps ]
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
Hmm, I think packing ten torpedoes in a single volley is only possible for really big launchers, like those on the GCS or maybe NCS. It seems the newer starships are all using single-fire tubes, though some of them does have impressive rate of fire. As to why the switch, maybe Starfleet thinks such high number of torpedoes-per-volley is unnecessarily for most of its ships.
Still, I would like to see the effect of ten Quantum torpedoes striking a single target simultaniously.
[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: David Templar ]
Posted by Phelps (Member # 713) on :
Well, it might be good to get some more questions out:
Phelps' List of Weird Questions about Torpedoes (please add your own)
1) Why do torpedoes glow? 2) Why do TOS torpedoes glow white, TNG torpedoes orange?
3) Why do quantum torpedoes glow blue?
4) What's up with the shifting streaks of light coming out of the orange core in the movies?
5) How's a big launcher different from a small launcher?
6) Are there different sizes of torpedo casings? The Defiant's MSD would indicate so, although "Valiant" seemed to show the usual full-size prop.
7) Why do recent ships have more launchers? Is it to cover for the lack of a guidance system?
8) What's the difference between the different "Marks" of torpedoes? Is "Mark" a company, as indicated in the DS9 ep where Sisko meets Kasidy and they refer to Mark as a company?
9) Are quantum torpedoes ever housed in different casings? We've seen one in the usual coffin (sorry) in "Valiant", though Drexler's DS9TM pictures and Eaves' FC sketches show a pointy casing.
10) Why are they always painted black?
11) Are they deliberately the size of a coffin?
12) Have we ever seen other shapes for torpedoes?
13) Are any more powerful than others?
. . . .
[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: Phelps ]
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Actually, Phelps, we've seen other colored photon torpedoes on Starfleet ships. The Motion Picture had the Enterprise firing a blue torpedo at the asteroid, and The Final Frontier had the Enterprise firing a green (I think, it might have been blue again) torpedo at God.
We know for certain that there are two sizes of photon torpedoes. The first is the regular size that we've seen many times as a prop (Generations, "Valiant," "Tears of the Prophets" etc.). The second are the "micro-torpedoes" that the runabouts use. Those are supposed to be fairly tiny in comparison to the regular torpedoes.
"Mark" isn't a company name. It's actually a design number. Think of it in terms of computer programs and their version numbers. Windows 3.1 is newer product and more advanced that the 2.2 version. The Mark VII transporters are more advanced and capable of greater resolution than the Mark V transporters (I believe that's how the conversation between Yates and Sisco went). For photon torpedoes, I think we had mention of Voyager's mark number in "Dreadnaught," but I can't remember offhand. We've also seen the mark numbers written on them in Generations and The Wrath of Khan.
Posted by Phelps (Member # 713) on :
Alright, so we'll add TMP to the list, though I seem to remember yellow torpedoes in that movie. You're right about Mark as well -- the German version had "I thought Mark stopped making them", while the script, which I just checked, says "Mark Five? I thought they stopped making them..."
[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: Phelps ]
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Mark is many things. But a maker of torpedoes he is not. Hence, why I stopped making 'em.
Mark
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
1) Why do torpedoes glow? Suppositely, I think it's from the exhaust of the torpedoes' engines. Too tired to read the TNGTM to tell you the details.
2) Why do TOS torpedoes glow white, TNG torpedoes orange? Um, different exhaust temperatures?
4) What's up with the shifting streaks of light coming out of the orange core in the movies? Because it looks cool!
5) How's a big launcher different from a small launcher? Bore size which influences volley capacity, the number of torpedoes it can throw out per shot. The GCS's got huge launchers with a large bore, which means they can pack ten torpedoes in there at once. AFAIK, torpedo launchers all work on compressed gas concept, kinda like today's submarine's torpedo tubes.
6) Are there different sizes of torpedo casings? The Defiant's MSD would indicate so, although "Valiant" seemed to show the usual full-size prop. Depends what you want to believe, the MSD or lack of a new prop.
7) Why do recent ships have more launchers? Is it to cover for the lack of a guidance system? I think it's to keep up the rate of fire. Recent torpedo launchers are all single shots, so having two is better than one. Usually they're located too close to eachother to justify one being there for redundency. Also, let's ignore the idea of a ship having fifteen tubes.
8) What's the difference between the different "Marks" of torpedoes? Is "Mark" a company, as indicated in the DS9 ep where Sisko meets Kasidy and they refer to Mark as a company?Someone already covered this.
9) Are quantum torpedoes ever housed in different casings? We've seen one in the usual coffin (sorry) in "Valiant", though Drexler's DS9TM pictures and Eaves' FC sketches show a pointy casing. Frankly, I wouldn't trust the DS9TM if it told me the Earth was round.
10) Why are they always painted black? Looks cool.
11) Are they deliberately the size of a coffin?Probably not, but they do make great coffins.
12) Have we ever seen other shapes for torpedoes? We saw a Jam'Hadar torpedo in "Starship Down". It was more cylindrical, milky-white and opac, with a light pulsing inside it. Can't remember any other torpedoes being shown, unless you want to include the one from "Enterprise".
13) Are any more powerful than others? The impression given to us was that Romulan plasma torpedoes were among some of the most devastating weapons avaliable. I'm assuming that this would be a guided weapon with a large plasma warhead, rather than large balls of plasma with unknown but accurate means of guidance as from Starfleet Battles and SFCI and II (how the heck do big balls of gas follow targets?!).
Federation's Quantum torpedo seems to also be much feared, though maybe not to the same extent.
Klingon torpedoes seemed very similar to regular Photon torpedoes.
Breen torpedoes seem to have a delay-action fuse, and a smaller warhead than those of other races. You always see them (when the target vessel's shields are down) exploding inside a ship.
Dominion torpedoes also seem to employ smaller warheads than most Alpha Quadrant races. The Ent-D took extensive hull damage (chunks of the secondary hull was blown off) from the Duras sister's BoP's torpedoes, while the Odyessy only had scorch marks.
Cardassian torpedoes sucks, period.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: (how the heck do big balls of gas follow targets?!)
Or travel at warp.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
As for the fact that the torps glow... It's possible that this is just a TV effect. Thus, any variations have no bearing on what the torpedo really looks like. Sometimes, on televised hockey games, they'll superimpose a streaky little blob of color on top of the puck, so you can see better where it is. And on football games (N.B.: I'm in the United States) they'll add in a line to represent the line of scrimmage. These things aren't really there; they're just on the TV screen. I think of the glowiness of the torpedoes as the same sort of thing.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
But Enterprise's don't.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
The pointy torps in the DS9 TM were mini torpedoes for runabouts. They depicted regular coffin shaped quantorps too
Posted by Phelps (Member # 713) on :
Actually, those would be the microtorpedoes, a concept introduced in the Voyager writers' tech guide and adopted by RS for the DS9TM. The pointy quantum torpedo casing was the one I meant. It seemed similar to Eaves' sketches in the FC sketchbook, but maybe it's just the angle. Don't have my tech books here.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Enterprise's torpedoes don't glow because they're so damn slow.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Enterprise's torpedoes are just torpedoes, not photon torpedoes.
No photons = no glow.
Glowing is caused by photons. Maybe one day theyll tell us why theyre called that.
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
quote: (how the heck do big balls of gas follow targets?!)
quote: Or travel at warp.
TNGTM says that the photorps depart with a warp field built around them that dissipates. I don't see any reason why plasmatorps couldnt have a similar (though prolly less efficient) system. And if my theory of using warp fields to maneuver at sublight is correct, then a fly-by-wire system is most likely employed where the warp field is manipulated from the Rom ship to track the target.
As for how the warp field is changed....subspace...um...something
Posted by Phelps (Member # 713) on :
Photon torpedoes do most of their damage with high-energy photons, or gamma-rays, which are the result of matter-antimatter annihilation.
The plasma in Romulan torpedoes might be travelling inside a warp-sustainer field of some kind; phasers, for example, are fired at warp by jacketing them inside the annular confinement beams, like those used in transporters (DS9TM).
I doubt the glow in regular torpedoes is the exhaust -- I believe we've never seen a torpedo accelerate to a target, only travel there at constant speed. So you'd need thrust only for course changes.
To me, it looks like some sort of gas accumulating inside a forcefield, possibly some exhaust gases. The real reason is, of course, that viewers really need to see more than just a black dot with two tiny exhaust ports.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
You're suggesting that the plasma torpedoes have some sort of actual "torpedo" involved, rather than just being a ball of plasma. That was the exact point of those original questions. The question was how could they aim themselves and travel at warp if there's no torpedo, i.e. if they're nothing but plasma. And, of course, the answer is that they can't.
Posted by Phelps (Member # 713) on :
No, I'm thinking that they fired subspace/other forcefields onto the target which contained plasma inside. No physical casing involved. The pulse phasers work in about the same manner.
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
I emailed Mike Okuda circa 1994 (!) about what makes photon torpedoes glow. He said it was the warp sustainer field that propels them (even at sublight).
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
quote:Originally posted by Phelps: No, I'm thinking that they fired subspace/other forcefields onto the target which contained plasma inside. No physical casing involved. The pulse phasers work in about the same manner.
That wasn't the issue, the issue was that how do they track and follow targets, even at warp? Technically when pulse weapon leaves its launcher, it's gonna go in a straight line until it runs out of energy/containment field collapses, unless something influences it. However, the plasma weapons used by the Romulans in TOS, SFB, SFC I and II follows you around, you can't dodge it.
Another note, the plasma weapon use in TOS was never referred to as a torpedoe. Then again, the Romulan weapon used in TNG and DS9 weren't called torpedoes either, at least not directly. However, visually, they were just the effects for a normal photon torpedoe, colored green. Also, the other sorts of weapon projections, disruptor beam and pulse, are shown in addition to this torpedoe effect.
The torpedoe in "Enterprise" uses old-style reaction drive (i.e. rocket motor), so no glowy-glowy.
Posted by Phelps (Member # 713) on :
Having a plasma torpedo follow a target is easy. Just make sure that the subspace signature of the plasma containment field matches that of the enemy's shields, and there you go.
[ October 13, 2001: Message edited by: Phelps ]
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
How?
Mark
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
Dear lord, what did he just say? Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Phelps: Actually, I was talking to OnToMars, not you...
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
While I suppose it might be possible (ignoring for the moment that technically in these matters anything is possible) that the Romulans were placing their amazing plasma weapon inside of some independant self-sustaining warp field, it seems to me that if they had that sort of technology during TOS, there wouldn't be a Federation around for spinoffs. Or, in other words, that ability seems way out of line with what little we've seen of 23rd century Romulan capabilities.
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
Particularly when you consider that their ships were slower than the E; remember Scotty's "their power is simple impulse" line?
Posted by Phelps (Member # 713) on :
Then again, there shouldn't be a galaxy to explore in spinoffs if the Enterprise could travel 990.7 lightyears in a day. It's not always easy to reconcile 23rd and 24th century technologies.
I don't really see the threat to the Federation since the power of those weapons degrades with distance. Just keep your ships far enough and fire a whole bunch of photon torpedoes on the Romulans. It's also possible the Federation shields were improved later on.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
I'm not at all willing to subscribe to the theory that, because of that line, the Romulans didnt have warp drive.
I could hardy imagine an interstellar empire that could exist cohesively without interstellar travel. I recognize that conceivably they could, but would they be able to bring the Federation a horrible interstellar war? Doubtful.. theyd have had to launch the ships decades earlier in preparation and would have a damn hard time catching up to NX-01.
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
TSN, we already know that plasma plays a large role in creating warp fields in the first place and specifically (according to TNGTM) that plasma is responsible in some way for creating a warp field. Perhaps there is some way to play a warp field off of the plasma 'torpedoes'. When the torp is launched, it's as cohesive as they can make it. But as it travels, entropy takes over and the warp field starts to lose said cohesiveness.
As for tracking, maybe the torp's warp field seeks some sort of natural equilibrium in it's immediate area. The decaying torp's warp field seeks an equilibrium with the strongest warp signature in the area. If the Rommies turn their warp core to 'low', then the strongest signal is naturally an enemy ship. That is, if the ship doesn't know how the torp works.
Obviously, Kirk didn't know this. Later, somebody else figured it out, and figured out how to avoid them, like using thrusters or whatnot to side step them or creating a misleading warp field or using *GASP* Newtonian physics by getting a good speed up and then shutting the warp core down entirely.
Thusly, a defense against the dreaded plasma torps is created and the Federation is saved.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Plasma doesn't create a warp field. Plasma is nothing but a gas that's so hot its atoms have begun to ionize. If I rememeber my TNGTM correctly, the plasma energizes the warp coils (which are made out of some funky fictional substance), and those warp coils create the warp field.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
My point isn't that the plasma torpedo represents some sort of awesome threat. Obviously it didn't. It's that if the Romulans had such a mastery of subspace physics as to allow them to spontaneously generate warp fields without any mechanical apparatus, plasma torpedos would be the least of anyone's problems.
Posted by Phelps (Member # 713) on :
Romulans aren't that interested in invading foreign territories -- they kept quiet for a hundred years after the 2150s war, then another fifty after the Tomed Incident. Yet every time we saw them "return", they had technology that at least matched that of the Federation. First, the cloak and plasma torpedoes, and then the warbirds in the 24th century (which, as I recall, were quite a match for Galaxy-class starships).
[ October 14, 2001: Message edited by: Phelps ]
Posted by NeghVar (Member # 62) on :
Here is a question for you:
Watch Balance of Terror. Now explain why the Romulans have a warp speed Plasma weapon, but it is inferred that the Warbird has no warp drive?
Art
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
It's because people inferred that unnecessarily. The theory that makes the most sense, and is, I think, becoming more widely accepted, is that "simple impulse power" is just that: their power. In other words, they use a fusion reactor (to Starfleet types, this would be akin to their impulse reactor) to power their ships, rather than a M/AM reaction. So, they'd still have less power, so they'd probably be slower than the Enterprise, but it doesn't mean they can't go to warp speeds.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
Actually, the D'deridex(sp?) class warbird is technically inferior to the GCS (STEncycl). It's just bigger and packs bigger guns.
Kinda funny how this thread began about the Defiant, and ended up here.
Posted by targetemployee (Member # 217) on :
Watch Star Trek: Insurrection. The admiral in that movie mentions a very direct comment to the Romulans. He stated that the Romulans didn't have warp drive prior to 100 years before the events of the movie.
So, we have two canonical pieces of evidence that the Romulans were not a warp drive society prior to circa 2270-"Balance of Terror" and Star Trek: Insurrection.
I feel that if you going to argue on points in Star Trek, then I believe that the argument should consider all canonical facts, i.e. facts as found in the aired material, with the possible exception of the 2nd series (TAS).
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Well back to square one... if the Romulans didn't have Warp Drive in 2150's then the Romulan War could not have occured, it's just plain silly to think so. Best fix:
#1: Romulans have warp drive by at least 2150's. #2: Romulans are powered by Fusion until 2270's.
The first takes care of common sense, the second combines the best of both worlds [hehe], accepting the fact that they had to have Warp Drive, but not necessarily Warp Drive powered by M/ARs [which is what the good admiral in Insurrection was speaking of (not the actual acquisition of Warp Drive, but getting Warp Drive with M/AR, which the Federation probably considers true Warp Drive)].
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
When people say that a "torpedo" consisting of just plasma and a warp field sounds too advanced, I'm tempted to think that it's actually more primitive than anything the Feds have.
I'm reminded of guided missile development in general. More and more of the "intelligence" of the weapon system is moved from the launching end to the actual weapon as technology advances. First, it's just a roughly aimed cannon with an inert projectile. Then aiming gets better and the projectile gets a fuze. Then there comes onboard propulsion, maneuverability and guidance, but at first it's through wires, with an actual human squeezing a joystick. And gradually the "eyes" move from the controller to the missile, and then the "brain" follows, bit by bit.
A system wherein the launching ship projects a warp field and possibly can also manipulate it after projection would be similar to a primitive wire-guided missile in many ways, but also to a primitive cannon in others. If the ship is responsible for generating the field, then what is being propelled doesn't matter. It could be a solid projectile, it could be a cloud of plasma, it could even be the enemy ship if the firing vessel gets lucky...
Such a weapon would only require lots of raw power (something the Romulan ship seemed to be short of, but perhaps only because this weapon sucked up so much power), not much finesse. And the firing vessel would be a sitting duck throughout the procedure, since this would not be a fire-and-forget weapon.
As for the photon torpedo mysteries, I think the glow is indeed best explained as a "leaky", "coarse" warp field, with the color varying for the same reason the warp nacelles of different races glow in different colors. The black casing color would simply tell of the natural color of the superhard material the casings are primarily made of.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
Don't overlook the possibility that there are FTL drives other than "warp drive." If the Romulans had a slow-moving hyperdrive, shunt drive, jump drive, or X-drive powered by impulse reactors, then the acquisition of faster, more-efficient warp drive from the Klingons in the 2260s could still be important.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
One problem there, J. As far as we know, Romulans never used M/AM reactions. Later Romulans used an artificial singularity...
Posted by NeghVar (Member # 62) on :
Unless they refitted the D-7's and K'T'Inga's from the Klingons...they indeed were using M/AM Warp Cores...
At least in some point of their history.
[ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: NeghVar ]
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
I don't even like the theory I formerly stated--- it's not a flavorful as I'd like it to be.
Mine: Romulans create a warp drive with fusion power [WDF], sometime after Earth does [to explain the lower tech (similar technology should develop on similar time tables for the two powers according to most ST rules)]. They use this WDF for many years, especially between 2150-2260's.
By the Romulan-Klingon alliance, the Romulans know about M/AR, but don't develop that technology because they want the artifical quantum singularity tech. By 2340's ["Yesterday's Enterprise"] the Romulans have developed this technology [possibly earlier]. _______
Another point, there is no evidence to say the Romulans didn't or did have M/AR. I view them as having it, but not really caring. IMO, the Romulans got M/AR from the Klingons [along with the ship design]. This advanced the Romulans ahead some what [I feel they didn't apply the technology to their entire fleet--- thus a moot advance], but the Romulans still focused on ZPE tech. It might be that the Tomed Incident was the Romulans testing their newly developed ZPE tech on the Feds.
It seems strange but I like to think of the Romulans in this kinda contridicted terms. The Romulans develop WDF after Earth does. They don't pursue M/AR, which is what Earth has, but ZPE which is better than what Earth has. They get M/AR from the Klingons, but don't care to use it to it's full advantage, they continue to pursue ZPE with all possible zeal.
It makes sense to me Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
How about the Romulan Empire was so small and they had no plan/were forbidden to expand that they only got "warp drive" 100 years ago (According to Picard) THAT is when they started becoming more of a threat - expansionists etc. etc. Then along came Tomed and something terrible happened and AGAIN the Romulans returned to their isolationism.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Can someone quote me Admiral Dougherty's line about the Romulan thugs? As I recall he says "the 22nd century," which could mean that they might have developed warp drive shortly before the war.
Anyway, if he said "23rd century," then I'll just claim that he was confused.
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: Can someone quote me Admiral Dougherty's line about the Romulan thugs? As I recall he says "the 22nd century," which could mean that they might have developed warp drive shortly before the war.
Anyway, if he said "23rd century," then I'll just claim that he was confused.
He never gave the century number, just the time span of a hundred years.
Just for the sake of completeness, I might add that "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" mentions three hundred years of distrust between humans and Romulans, suggesting that first contact with them was around the 2070s. I have a feeling that (since it's not in the sacred chronology or encyclopedia) this particular throwaway line won't be remembered if the Romulans show up in Enterprise.
[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: Ryan McReynolds ]
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Well, when i say 'three hundred years' im usually not trying to be exact. The problem is that people will hear someone say 'x hundred years ago'and figure they were a smart cookie and were quoting the exact time, which just happens to be a multiple of 100 today.
When i was discussing the revolutionary war with someone recently, i said 'things were different 300 years ago' because its is 2001, and i remember that the revolution was in the 1700s. i subtracted 20-17 in my head while i was talking and got 3, so i said 300. I know full well the revolutionary war began 225 years ago. It was just more efficient for the conversation to not go get a calculator and get the exact figure before i lost my train of thought. We have to accept that when someone gives a figure like that it could be +/- 75 years, depending on what mnemonic device they use to remember it, and that in the Star Trek universe no one is walking around flipping through the chronology before they say something.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
There's also an additional fudge factor (mmm... fudge...) in what Dougherty and Picard say. First they discuss how the Romulans were transformed from harmless to harmful by their acquisition of warp drive. Then the discussion moves on to the Son'a. And THEN Dougherty says "we can handle the Son'a". To which Picard: "I bet somebody said that about the Romulans a century ago".
So in fact it could go like this:
Good old days: Romulans terrorize their weakling neighbors using sublight ships. Other, stronger races laugh at them good-naturedly. 2086: Romulans get warp. 2133: Romulans fight with Earth, with pitiful weapons. Earth wins hands down, and Adm. Adama says "Don't worry, we can handle them." 2178: Romulans fight with Earth again, now with better weapons. Earth wins hands down with UFP help, and Adm. Bellson says "Don't worry, we can handle them." 2266: Romulans come out again, now with cloaks. Kirk defeats them, and Adm. Chavez says, "Don't worry, we can handle them." 2311: Romulans come out once more, and hit Tomed with something that scares Starfleet out of its pants. Adm. Donner says "Uh... You can start worrying now." Ever since, people have regretted that admirals A through C never eradicated the Romulans when they had the chance.
The other end of the option spectrum is that somebody, perhaps even Earth, gave them warp exactly 100 years before "Insurrection" and has been regretting that ever since.
And anything and everything between those is possible and even probable...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
Now there's a story for you. Earth in some of it's less inspiring moments of wisdom, gave Romulans tech to fight somebody else that as enemies of Earth (maybe the Klingons). Then of course, the Romulans turn on Earth using and improving what Earth gave them and start the Romulan Wars. Now that's a story for 'Enterprise'. The kind that has far reaching ramifications, fits in with the greater storyline in Star Trek, and comments on today's events.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
Bah, the Federation can take the Romulans. Those guys lost their chance to take the Federation during the earlier TNG years, before Starfleet started to get its act together because of the Borg. If it weren't for the fact they chose to enter the Dominion war so late and their territory is so far away, they'd be in even poorer shape.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I don't think Romulan territory is very far from the Federation at all...
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Daugherty: We can handle the Son'a (a warp capable civilization)
Picard: I bet somebody said that about the Romulans (a warp capable civilization) a century ago
i like analogies.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: I don't think Romulan territory is very far from the Federation at all...
Oh no, I meant from Romulan space to the front lines of Dominion War.
Those guys lost their chance to take the Federation during the earlier TNG years, before Starfleet started to get its act together because of the Borg. If it weren't for the fact they chose to enter the Dominion war so late and their territory is so far away, they'd be in even poorer shape.