Apparently you never check your PM's so PLEASE CHECK IT NOW! Or, if you just don't have the image readily available, at least say so. I'm really anxious to see it!
-MMoM
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Good GODDESS, boy...take your hands off your nuts, would ya? DAMN...
You ARE correct, I do not check my PMs because I'm unimportant enough to not get them, so I don't bother. I've been busy with things like work, sleep, & committing minor felonies. But it's finally up.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Sorry. I was just going crazy trying to read that tiny little one...
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
So, Axanar is near the Klingon Border. Does this mean the Battle of Axanar was against the Klingons?
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
What am I, fuckin' Kreskin?
Posted by bear (Member # 124) on :
I like..... Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
What I like is that Vulcan and Andor are at least two sectors apart. So much for the Andorians being from a neighboring system.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
I dont think the map has much credence given all the developments lately.. they should keep things vague, so i say all maps are out (they are contradictory anyway)
and those cubes are a lot bigger than sectors.. each one is the size of hundreds of sectors
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Do you only consider the person who lives right next to you to be your neighbor? Personally, I'd call someone who lived a ways down my street who I knew my neghbor. They live in my neighborhood, don't they?
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Yeah but do you consider the guy who lives on the side street off the main street of which you live on another side street your neighbor too?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Depends on what scale you're talking about. He's more a neighbour to you than, say, I am.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
I could still even believe Vulcan and Andor considering each other neighbors and being on opposite sides of us. We just consider them to be far apart because we have no way to cross that distance at that point. They *can* go a lot faster than us
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
The way they said it in the episode was something like "the Andorians live in a neighboring system to Vulcan". In that sort of context, it would suggest that the systems are rather close.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Well, they are. If you look at the map (which specifically is a "local area" map) ALL of these systems are relatively near each other. There's no reason why Andor/ia and Vulcan can't be in the positions shown, and still be called "neighboring systems."
Keep in mind, the Vulcans have been out there exploring for a long time already in ENT's timeframe. Their sphere of influence probably includes much of the surrounding space. Just because Vulcan and Andor/ia aren't RIGHT NEXT TO EACH OTHER doesn't mean that they're not neighbors, or that the space controlled by each isn't close together.
And I'll remind everyone, while this particular map hasn't appeared onscreen as yet, an earlier version was seen in "Conspiracy"(TNG), and in several different episodes of DS9, in Keiko O'Brien's schoolroom. That map showed Vulcan and Andor in exactly the same locations as this one. And it is undeniably CANON.
-MMoM
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
quote:an earlier version was seen in "Conspiracy"(TNG), and in several different episodes of DS9, in Keiko O'Brien's schoolroom. That map showed Vulcan and Andor in exactly the same locations as this one. And it is undeniably CANON.
Well, judging by overall legibility, no more or less Canon than top secret Hamsterdrive technology.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Not really. The hamster/duck/airplane thing was an in-joke, not intended seriously. This was supposed to be real.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
But it wasn't supposed to be accurate.
And my point was that the dialogue suggested that Vulcan and Andor are "neighbors" relative to everything else, especially Earth. In other words, if they were farther from each other than they are from Earth, it would be pretty dumb to describe them that way. It would be like talking to your next-door neighbor, and describing the person on the other side of them as "my neighbor". They're more of a neighbor to your neighbor than to you.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
You could ignore a doghouse or an abandoned shack between your house and that of your "neighbor", though.
Earth may simply not count for much in Vulcan opinion. Thus, it doesn't disqualify, say, Epsilon Indi from being the neighbor of 40 Eridani, even if it sits more or less between them in the real world.
Anyhow, now that we know the Trek Rigel is not the real Beta Orionis, that map becomes significantly more acceptable. We now only have to hope that the constellations Cygnus and Lyra in Trek are also proven to be different from the real ones, and the contradictions on that map will disappear for good.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"You could ignore a doghouse or an abandoned shack between your house and that of your 'neighbor', though."
But not if you're describing the situation to the person who lives in that shack or doghouse.
Posted by Proteus (Member # 212) on :
Meh? arent the breen from the beta quadrent?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
They are in the Beta Quadrant. It's an oblique view of the Alpha, Beta, and Delta Quadrants. Only the Gamma Quadrant is out of view.
DS9, Bajor, Cardassia, Ferenginar, etc. are all in the Beta Quadrant.
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
I believe you have that backward. DS9, Bajor, and Cardassia are in the Alpha Quadrant with Earth right on the border between Alpha and Beta.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Really?
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Yep. That's why such a big deal is made about the "Alpha Quadrant" in DS9's war episodes.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
WHOOPS!!!
Can't believe I said that. I knew that.
No really, I did! I just got it flipped inmy head for some reason.
So then...
I went back through my Encyclopedia, and found no reference to the Breen being from the BQ. Are you sure?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Actually, I don't think there's any reference in DS9 to anyone being from the Beta Quadrant, not even the Klingons and Romulans.
TPTB didn't want to confuse viewers any more than they already were. If you ask someone who's seen DS9, but never picked up a technical manual, everyone appears to be in the Alpha Quadrant.
The only real references to the Klingons and Romulans being in the Beta Quadrant are in ST VI, and possibly Message in a Bottle.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
So, does anyone else have any problems with this map, other than the Andor/Vulcan thing? i think it's fair to say it's pretty accurate.
I like that Gornar is included.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
My problems:
3 dimensionality lacking. The Galaxy is thikc enough for a lot of planets (& empires!) to be on top of each other.
the span.. on both sides of the so called Federation space are planets visited by the Enterprrise-no suffix. Are we to believe no exploring was done between TOS and TNG? and that the 1701 could span the whole of the current Federation (which is 8000 LY span and take 6 months for slower ships to get around)?
Klingon-Romulan-Cardassian issue. I have thought of several solutions to this, but it is addressed quite poorly in this map. They need to have common borders in order for the Dominion war to make sense.
People seem to only accept the Federation as a spheroid or cubic shape (basically 2D with imaginary depth). What if it is a torus, or helix or other inherently 3D shape. In this way, the Federation could span 8000 LY end to end, but still be shot through with nonaligned space. A phalanx of the Klingon empire could extend right through it to Cardassian space, which wraps around the top or bottom until it hits Romulan space. It would also explain how far-flung enemies could concievably get so close to coreworlds like Betazed & Earth.. The Federation has more than six sides if it is a more complex shape.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Only the Klingons need to be close to Cardassian space. The Romulans don't appear to be near Cardassia in any way. They don't need to be to have interests in the area. The U.S. doesn't border Afghanistan, for instance.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
The are common boarders between the Klingons and the Cardassians... the Klingons and Romulans, the Romulans and The Federation, the Federation and the Kligons, the Federation and the Cardassians and The Romulans and the Cardassians... it's one hell of a mess - but this map is too simplistic - that is why I gave up trying to do maps... you have to think more three dimensionally... to accurately portray the klingon/cardassian/federation and romulan boarders, they all have to overlap... which doesn't necessairly mean on the same plane. Nor are these governments withing tight spheres of influence... getting out from core worlds - it might still be federation space, but it would have a LOT of empty space between starsystems that would allow anyone who wants to travel... to travel... the only time I think that there might be any sort of coherent boarder is when there are enough starsystems up down, left right and backwards and forwards that the empty space between them can be included into Federation space. The further out you go... the more swiss-cheesed the whole thing is. That is why you can't have nice neat boarders... this allow there to be all these neigbouring governments.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
I think System J-25 is too close. IIRC, it's out in the DQ, instead it looks like it's in the BQ.
As far as 'neighboring' systems go, space is very big. So I could understand two systems, a few lightyears away from each other, as neighbors.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
They never said what quadrant J25 was it, just that it would take a long time o get home from there, and that it was towards Borg space.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Humm.... uh, IIRC it was. Then again, all I am remember is Descent, and that definately was DQ. humm, oh well.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
They never mentioned where/which quadrants that they were in in Descent and Q-Who?... and considering Q-Who? Was before "The Price" where they first introduced that alpha/beta/gamma/delta quadrant divisions... they couldn't have mentioned them being in the Delta Quadrant. They said it was System J25 and that at warp 9 it would take them more than 20 years to get home - I'm not sure on the exact figure.
The same goes for Descent - they didn't say which Quadrant they were in.
The borg aren't just in the Delta Quadrant - I would have to say that they spill over into the beta Quadrant as well... or that they have sparse areas at the fringes of their space... i.e. they wouldn't have cubes patrolling empty space for no reason... and that Q might have blown the Enterprise to the nearest Borg ship which was in the Beta Quadrant...
P.S. That map was made all the way back in season 1. Whoever has touched the map up assinging new planets and systems to random stars... the map might have been updated at one time to include 'Ferenginar' for the Art of Star Trek, but there are a whole heap like the Breen Homeworld that someone has just plonked in there. I'd take this map with a grain of salt - it is basically a cool looking map that just was a nice link to TOS from season 1 TNG showing all the planets that the E-Nil visited - I would take it with a grain of salt, considering what we know about now how the Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians, the Federation, The location of cestus III and the involvment of the Tholians into Federation/Klingon/Romulan affairs is known... when it wasn't known back in TNG season 1.
Andrew
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
In "Q Who?", system J-25 was said to be about 7,000 lightyears from the nearest UFP outpost, so it must be either in Alpha or Beta. The travel time estimate was about three years, which is much faster than the Encyclopedia warp scale would suggest.
As for the "veracity" of that map... in the TNG Companion, Larry Nemecek mentions an "art department map" which the employees apparently kept updating. In the entry for "Suddenly Human", he mentions that the Talarians were to the "west" on that map. Curiously, none of the published or leaked or even retouched versions of this "Conspiracy" map have shown the location of Talar. So that art department map may have been something different altogether.
Somehow, I doubt that, though. This map was seen in many, many places and in many, many forms. Not only was it a wall display of the above format in a couple of episodes. It was also part of a galactic "top view", a big unlabeled display screen seen in for example "The Emissary". Furthermore, it was seen as part of a similar but different "top view" behind the back of an Admiral Picard was teleconferencing with in "Data's Day". And it apparently served as inspiration for the map Dr Galen used in "The Chase", although the details do not quite match.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
"They said it was System J25 and that at warp 9 it would take them more than 20 years to get home - I'm not sure on the exact figure."
Or even the rough figure. It was around 2 years. And was completely inconsistent with the warp speed chart. The more things change...
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Bah - OK I picked a number out of my arse! ;o)
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
I take it no one else paid attention to the Okudagrams in "Descent" there was one in there that indicated they were in the Delta Quadrant.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Yeah, well, that was the one and only time we learned that there could be Borg in the Delta quadrant. That is, until Voyager's crew somehow jumped to this conclusion late in the third season. The audience certainly couldn't have known the Borg were in Delta, not without help from Voyager dialogue.
Before that, a nitpicking fan would probably have assumed that Borg home turf is in Beta, since that's the direction in which Wolf 359 lies.
A fun connection: originally, the menace of the Borg was supposed to be the same as the menace of the parasites from "Conspiracy", until writing decisions took a twist or two. And in "Conspiracy", we learn the parasites had been "clearing a corridor" by influencing Starfleet ships and installations in a specific direction. That direction included starbase 12, which is in the Beta quadrant as well (it's the one closest to Pollux, as per "Who Mourns for Adonais?", and we all know Pollux is in Beta...)!
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Erm... Obviously something, onscreen or not, indicated that the Borg were in the DQ before VOY did, because I knew it...
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
I recall a conversation with the TPTB about whether they were going to show the Borg or not before Voyager even started. Their response was something along the lines of; "Maybe..." *wink wink* *nudge nudge* *whistles* *that clicky noise thing* *various other motions that the hotel guide made to Homer when he went to Capital City w/ Cindy Crawford*
I remember feeling, and understanding that this was a general consensus, that the Borg were in the Delta Quadrant, and that Voyager was going to run into them.
Might it be a line from "Q Who?"?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
*sigh*
No, because as has been already pointed out, the quadrant system wasn't even invented until season 3 of TNG. It first appeared in "The Price" (and ST VI).
The Borg were not mentioned as being from the Delta Quadrant out loud at any point during TNG. The reason we knew that the Borg were in the Delta Quadrant before Voyager said so it for the same reason we know what a Nebula-class ship is, and did know long before it was said out loud: we're internet nerds who listen when Okuda says something like "The Borg are in the Delta Quadrant on my maps, kiddies!"
J-25 was probably in the Beta Quadrant. It wasn't THAT far away from Federation space.
Posted by Phelps (Member # 713) on :
The 1994 first edition of the Encyclopedia first speculated that the Borg might be there, IIRC. Look up the entry showing a map of the four quadrants.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Yup, Phelps is correct, the first appearance - that I know of, that indicated that the Borg were in the Delta Quadrant was in the first edition of the encyc. It mentions something about the Denkiri arm in the Delta Quadrant - maybe this was taken from that map? in Descent?
Andrew
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
Ah yes, that most be where it's from. Those where the days when I read the Encyclopedia instead of had friends.
