"In fact, all the starships in the space battle with the Borg were computer-generated, with the exception of the Enterprise and the Farragut, which were state-of-the-art models.
The Farragut had been used on Star Trek:The Next Generation..." and that's it on the ship.
What does this mean? Either the facts are really screwed up (there are some problems in this book), and the author assumed the Farragut was the only Nebula-class ship, or the ILM people re-used the Farragut model for this battle. Either way, we know the Nebula-class model wasn't CGI now...
[ November 18, 2001: Message edited by: Reverend ]
My guess is that they're all the same single miniature but ILM spruced it up when they did Generations. It certainly wouldn't surprise me after what they did with the Excelsior.
Of course, this means that the Nebula in FC can't be the Farragut - it would have to be the Leeds or even relabeled to something else. BTW, wasn't the Farragut mentioned as being destroyed? And was it before or after FC took place?
(After seeing Andrew's post) There was a Nebula in DS9 season 1. There was the Bellerephon in the Wolf 359 scenes of "Emissary".
[ November 18, 2001: Message edited by: Dax ]
I thought we'd pretty much confirmed that the first CGI Nebula was in "Waltz"?
The Farragut was indeed spruced up (well the Nebbie model was) a la the 6' Enterprise model was pulled out of moth-balls and spruced up. I'm guessing the Miranda and Oberth models were spruced up too... pity they couldn't spend the time to make a new model or spruce up the Olympic or something (I know they couldn't use anything that looked similar to the E-D - not to confuse non 'fan' people... so I guess no free standing up-nacelle ships...
We all know that stardates are in many cases useless, as they are often inconsistent. However, can someone check the stardates for "Nor the Battle to the Strong" (DS9) and First Contact, and see if we can tell which one happened first?
Not sure about "Nor the battle to the strong" but "Doctor Bashir, I presume" was 50590.1
and that was quite a while after the Farragut was squished...
First Contact started in 50893.5, shortly before the end of DS9 series 5.
quote:
Originally posted by Veers:
In terms of dates they were shown to the public...
I was referring to the fact that they mentioned First Contact in "Rapture," so it had to be before it. "The Darkness and the Light," immediately following the undated "Rapture," was stardate 50416.2. Since First Contact is 50893.5, it's just another case of stardates being useless for figuring out what happened when.
"Nor the Battle to the Strong" was several episodes before "Rapture," though. Technically, it is possible that First Contact was a few months earlier, but it seems weird that they'd wait so long to mention it. The issue of the new uniforms in "Rapture" also suggests they were near each other.
[ November 20, 2001: Message edited by: Ryan McReynolds ]
quote:
I was referring to the fact that they mentioned First Contact in "Rapture,"
When? the only reference to the borg attack AFAIK is in "By Inferno's Light"
SISKO - "...with the Klingon war and the recient Borg attack, Starfleet's stretched pretty thin."
FC would have to take place after DS9 started using the FC uniform design, since Worf and the other DS9 crew on the Defiant were all in their new duds. (i dont thinks its plausible they were switching uniforms back to the old design right when they got back to DS9).
quote:
That will prove very useless, sicne First Contact happened before "Rapture" (DS9).
But that's another topic.
[ November 22, 2001: Message edited by: Veers ]
And having the real bashir appear wearing a uniform we hadnt seen in a few episodes was a great dramatic tool. Didnt the producers specifiy in a newsgroup somewhere exactly where they intended for Bashir to have been kidnapped?
And stardates arent always chronological. We just wish they were. Just like in TNG season 1 when Tasha dies on one stardate, then there are several episodes filmed before that one that have stardates later than when she died. No, the uniform and IL/PS comment are the only evidence we can trust in this instance
Maybe I've got the orig text file somewhere. . . Nope. Damn. I'll speak to Adam B.
"Let me check. Well, he did operate on a changeling in *that episode whose name I have forgotten*"
"What happened to the changeling?"
"It died"
"Brilliant. Fans will just think that he killed it or something. It works!"
Apparently they filmed a scene of Changeling Bashir for "For the Uniform" (the episode directly before "Purgatory") but took it out when they deceided to keep it as a shock plot twist.
Its just a good thing they didnt put 'Dr. Bashir, I Presume' until after they got the real Bashir back.
I think a good explanation was that Bashir was napped wearing his old-style uniform, and the Changeling had a great deal of medical knowledge that enabled him to do what Bashir wouldve in 'Rapture'.. and that he didnt wreak any havoc because he was laying low waiting for his chance to blow up B'hava'el.
Of course, the main factor that went into this whole fiasco is the fact that the DS9 producers were chomping at the bit to get the new uniforms and props from FC, but TPTB didnt want fans to see the new stuff on TV first, they wanted all the 'new stuff awe' to be focused on their movie, so they made DS9 wait til the film had been well circulated before giving the go ahead to grab that stuff. They would have been better off waiting one more episode though, since the aforementioned oddity with the Changeling performing the Rapture surgery. And the fact that they couldnt afford enough uniforms for everyone! not only was Sisko wearing an ill fitting and incorrectly pinned version, but all of the Starfleet extras in the conference scene were wearing TNG uniforms (like the old ones from season 3!!!) Thats some evidence that uniform changes take a while in Starfleet.. probably major bases get new ones first, then farther out starships perhaps (since we knew that the TNG and DS9 uniforms were worn concurrently)? Just like the pin design changes a couple years before the uniform catches up..
One explanation we came up with before is that the grey uniforms and the early DS9/Voyager jumpsuits represent the Battle Dress Uniforms of the Starfleet wardrobe - that is, the everyday use uniforms. The TNG uniforms are the standard uniforms people wear around for less rugged use, and more office style duties. This is analogous to the US military uniform system, which sees BDU "camos" in general usewhen you're on everyday duty, and the slightly more suit-ish outfits when you're in the office. And of course, the really fancy dress whites for the really fancy occasions.
In other words, people on everyday starships would be wearing the BDU equivalent most days, like on Voyager or DS9. Fancier starships with fancier duties - like a flagship, for example - would probably stick to the more official standard uniforms that look better when you're trying to negotiate stuff or look good to your Federation neighbors. And then there's the best dress uniforms for everyone, for when you're greeting an ambassador or spying on Romulans.
What I believe is that the Enterprise-D, being the flagship and in never really in general combat duties, wouldn't have the BDU-equivalent of the day in its general wardrobe. But go to DS9, or Voyager, or any of the more gritty kinds of armpits in the Federation, and you'll see people in the jumpsuits. Then the War began warming up, and almost everyone switches over to the greytops in anticipation of everyone needing their more rugged qualities. And it just sorta stuck, at least until Starfleet can design a grey standard uniform to complement 'em.
All this is speculation, of course, and is subject to a bunch of little inconsistencies we see in the trek canon. For example, it is generally assumed that the Voyager crew never switched over to the greytops for the very practical reason that they had a mess of the colourtops already after inheriting DS9's supply, wanted to keep the movie franchise more visually separate, and also wanted a visual distinction between the Starfllet stuff happening on earth and Voyager. Plus, they save on not having to make custom-fitted uniforms for the main cast (despite spending more money on a bunch of one-shot uniforms for "Endgame").
But hey, it's a reasonable stab at it.
Mark
If I had to guess, I'd say you're mostly right, in theory. Starships got the TNG uniform (we saw it being worn by the Lantree crew, for god's sake -- wouldn't they get the DS9 version?), and perhaps remote outposts got the DS9 version? Or perhaps the DS9 version was done special for DS9 -- (or similar situations) -- where Starfleet's administrates someone else's space station.
In any case, it seems to me someone at Starfleet's Uniform Development facility decided they liked the DS9 uniform enough they entered it as "optional wear" for any Starfleet member, and sure enough, they started showing up on the "Enterprise" ... and then, for some reason, they got rid of the TNG uniform altogether (uh ... why?)
Did they give a specific stardate for Rapture... maybe the episode was shown before the two parter but in reality happened after the read Bashir came back - if there was no Stardate given.
Probably Starfleet uniform designs take a while to be disseminated. Thats why Kirk and Co. switched to black collar uniforms after WNMHGB, but the Antares crew still had ribbed collar variants in Charlie X. .. We know that the season 3 TNG uniforms coexisted with DS9 uniforms .. they were even worn interchangably aboard the 1701D in Generations. Presumably, Picard chose only to use the regular uniforms, but at some point cleared his crew to choose between the dressy ones and the fatigue-ey ones (kinda like the difference between khakis or whites in the navy.. arent some just summer uniforms?.. or the personal decision involved with the TMP uniforms.. Wearing the tunic, or the epaulet jumpsuit, or the lapel-leisure tunic, etc....) So those uniforms are a group, and then Fleet changed to grey shoulders. Presumably farther out starships had to wait til they got an update before they switched to them, so in Rapture, DS9 had been updated.. but some starships still had the DS9/TNG variations. The people wearing the TNG uniforms in Rapture probably came from ships where people wore both TNG and DS9 uniforms like was seen in Generations.. and they might have gotten their grey uniforms the following tuesday... and I'm thankful Voyager didnt get the specs for the FC uniform over the 'Message in a Bottle' and decide to change.. wouldve been a bit of a stretch in any case. Lets just assume the Federation ships wouldnt change uniforms bsed on a transmission, but would wait until they physically recieved them in a dock or rendezvous.. SO Antares never got black-collars, Voyager waited til it got home to switch to FCs and the ships from Rapture were stil lawaiting their updated uniform shipments. And crew in the 1701D corridors kept blindly wearing season 1 variants... (a while back i thought this would be a great way to signify enlisted versus officers.. officers had the season 3 collar and enlisted had no collar an pointy stripes on there shoulders.. oh well)
Ross continued to wear his TNG admirals uniform for a while after the FC uni came into use on DS9 (i think during some of the war arc, but im not sure where he switched), so the admirals might have been the last to change. Youre right i mightve fudged up the Ross/Daugherty uniform time period. But as of FC Adm. Hayes wore a TNG admiral tunic too.
The Season 3 uniforms were only used for 6 years (until Generations). One would assume that a fleet wide change took place, Hence Voyager having the uniforms in 2372, as a standard uniform. The problems start to arise in the same year when in "Homefront/Paradise Lost" when Sisko returns to Earth - he subsequently changes out of the 'Starbase uniform' back into the season 3 'starship uniform' which is legitemate when viewed in light of "Emissary" (which seems to be the normal intention - two sets of uniforms), Generations blurs the line, but STILL it is acceptable for Sisko to wear the Season 3 uniform - since they were changing all over the place in Generations... but Why change at all when it was acceptable for anyone in any assignment to wear either the Starbase or starship uniform? Sisko felt like it?
Then along comes Katie Janeway in the STARBASE uniform - which seems to be either 1. The fleet standard or 2. Up to the Captain. Maybe this explains the discrepencies that pop up in the final two seasons of DS9 where the season 3 uniform appears again, one and two years after the new grey uniform appears in 2373.
So. Could it be a Captain's perrogative as to what his crew will wear - i.e. we don't seen any DS9 crewmembers during the 'mixed years of 2371 and 2372 wearing the Starship uniform, while on duty on the starbase. Maybe it was up to the Captain of a particular ship when the crew of his or her starship decided to change. Janeway deemed it unnecessary on their journey home. The captains that appeared in the Season 3 uniforms while the others are in grey uniforms might have decided to stay with the old uniforms. Maybe this is allowable until a certain date?
Maybe as mentioned, they only changed when they got to a suitable starbase.
Maybe since it was war time those captains did think it was necessary to change over. Or that their old uniforms were destroyed?
What would REALLY stuff things up now would be for a group of officers to walk in, in pre 2366 uniforms. (and they hadn't been caught in some time paradox). We never did see what Lisa Cusak's uniform looked like... did we!?! It should have been pre 2366 (season 1/2 TNG)
Maybe, the producers change the uniforms too much.
Mark
...I always thought that the original DS9 uniforms were "working" uniforms (which is why they are listed as "jumpsuits"). Since DS9 would need a lot of nitty-gritty engineering work, they needed a more relaxed uniform where they could roll up their sleeves and such. That's why Sisko and Dax wore the more formal TNG uniforms until they got to DS9. When Sisko went back to Earth, he switched to the more formal TNG uniform again. Voyager seemed to imply that some ships not on the front lines "showing the flag" like the Ent-D could wear the less formal DS9 uniforms.
Of course, the uniform mixing in Generations seems odd, but maybe the crew of the Ent-D was allowed the less formal DS9 uniforms as a choice (perhaps they wanted to wear them while working on the refit of the Ent-D between TNG and Generations, which I imagine would have the same working characteristics as the retrofitting of DS9).
Thoughts?
[ November 25, 2001: Message edited by: Ace ]
Or rather, don't. You're boring me.
I think that he said the exact number of days that Bashir was captured. But you seem to think that you can figure out the amount of days based on Stardates. If Stardates were sequential and ordinal and moved at a set rate, then you could. But they dont. So you cant. We have no frame of reference for how DS9 stardates move, except that in general on TNG 1000 of them were a year. But seeing as peoples brithdays move around, their kids age exponentially and holidays and anniversarys bounce all over the damn calendar, besides the fact that on DS9 they use 26 hour days rather obnoxiously, how do you think that you can seriously figure that out, just to disprove clear dating evidence they placed right in the episode (the uniform!)
There are so many variations to that that you could never expect to take the stardate of 'Rapture' and the stardate on the Purgatory/Inferno 2 parter and determine the difference in days. I dont know why you think you can.
And if I'm boring you, you can [edit] and go play in the Andromeda thread.. theres no need to be a sarcastic prick.
[ November 25, 2001: Message edited by: CaptainMike ]