Certainly, the lounge “windows” (if in fact, they are windows) could really only be some of the “rectangular” windows on the rear of the primary hull, starboard aft. All 8 of those rectangular windows, (4 on deck six, and 4 on deck seven) however, are pretty much “accounted for” in terms of sets seen throughout the movie.

When the crew is assembled on the recreation deck, we can see the top row of 4 windows behind several individuals standing on the balcony. Certainly, there is no officer’s lounge here. And later, we get a pretty view of the area just below that as Decker is showing the “Ilia Probe” around the rec-deck.

So, is Okuda clueless as to where it should be located, or is he simply presenting information that was given to him by those who produced TMP?

(On a side note, I can’t help but point out that Okuda has seemed “clueless” in the past in regards to the refit Enterprise design. He was either unaware or did not care that Andrew Probert has designated the refit Enterprise as an Enterprise class vessel.

Additionally, when looking at Okuda’s “deck chart” for the Enterprise-A in the first printing of the Star Trek Encyclopedia, he erroneously locates Main Engineering on deck 19, and also locates deuterium fuel storage on decks 16 & 17.

He also lists the E-A as having 23 decks, which is purely inaccurate. It is simply not possible to account for that many decks based on horizontal window locations present on the filming model.

Certainly, the sets in TMP were specifically and systematically designed to be “located” in certain areas of the ship. Details on the sets, as well as details on the exterior of the filming model, reinforce this.)

O.K., enough Okuda bashing for now.

So, just where IS the officer’s lounge? At this point, I would have to guess that those “windows” are actually viewscreens, just as Shane Johnson illustrated in his book, “Mr. Scott’s Guide to the Enterprise.” He shows this section of the officer’s lounge to be a separate room, located just forward of the lounge area glimpsed as Spock’s shuttle is docking. However, any additional suggestions as to just where the officer’s lounge is located are certainly welcome.

Of, course, we have seen in subsequent Trek that there seems to be problem with building sets where the windows actually correspond to the exterior of the filming model. Cases in point: The Forward Observation Lounge in ST V: TFF; and the officer’s dining hall in ST VI: TUC (granted, this is just a redress of the TNG briefing room, but still, where is THIS supposed to be on the E-A?).

[ December 01, 2001: Message edited by: Commander Dan ]

The RecDeck is just below the bulge of the bridge. Those four large windows are the RecDeck.

The window views that have been added in the DE (The nacelle for the lounge, and the V'ger chamber for the RecDeck) correspond to both of these locations.

And as far as I know, the refit-Connie does indeed have 23 decks. (Disregarding, of course, the 78-deck-upside-down turboshaft in STV. )

-MMoM

[ December 01, 2001: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:
The lounge *IS* on the back rim of the saucer, on the starboard side. (Looking forward.) The windows on the set were made to correspond to those on the model.

The RecDeck is just below the bulge of the bridge. Those four large windows are the RecDeck.
-MMoM

[ December 01, 2001: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]

---

Sorry, Mim, but that's incorrect. I spoke to Andy Probert two days before Thanksgiving and he himself complained that the officer's lounge seen in the film is still using the Rec Deck windows. What happened was after they built the Rec Deck they decided to use parts of it to build the officer's lounge, because it would be cheaper than building the set that had been designed.

The Rec deck IS, in fact, that big bank of eight rectangular windows just starboard of the impulse engines. In fact, and though it's almost impossible to see because of the people in the Rec Deck, there was a large painted backing outside the windows portraying the spacedock "roof" and one nacelle, verifying its location. You can see a bit of it if you look really closely.

The REAL officer's lounge are the windows just below and aft of the bridge. It's those windows through which we see Spock's shuttle arriving. That set was a miniature. Andy's suggestion during the production of the film was to rip the window wall out of the set they did use, shoot a bluescreen there, and matte in the miniature. But it was never done.

Andy also claims that the angle the nacelle is seen from in the officer's lounge would put the room 3 feet too low (and the lounge seen in the shuttle docking is much too high as well).
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Commander Dan:
While watching ST: TMP DE on DVD, I was reading Okuda’s text...

Additionally, when looking at Okuda’s “deck chart” for the Enterprise-A in the first printing of the Star Trek Encyclopedia, he erroneously locates Main Engineering on deck 19, and also locates deuterium fuel storage on decks 16 & 17.

He also lists the E-A as having 23 decks, which is purely inaccurate. It is simply not possible to account for that many decks based on horizontal window locations present on the filming model.

[ December 01, 2001: Message edited by: Commander Dan ]

---

I think we have to be careful about refering to the 1701 refit as the 1701-A. The latter is a different ship, which we all know has 78 decks according to ST5.

Andy Probert gave me some photocopies of drawings he did for TMP. I have scanned a cutaway showing all the decks in the engineering hull and dorsal. I will upload it if someone can remind me how/where.

According to this drawing, there are 4 decks in the dorsal (one above the separation line, one below). There's a gap about .6 decks high at the level of the photorp exhaust vent, then there's one deck through the torpedo launcher. There are 7 decks indictated from there down, the bottommost one being the botanical deck. There is space for one small deck below, but no indications that one exists.

So....if the deck at the bottom the impulse engine is deck 7, adding the 12 decks indicated abot makes for 19 deck. If we assume one final deck at the bottom (where I assume all the antimatter is stored), that's a grand total of 20 decks. It should be pointed out that Andy's drawing clearly shows all the portholes and lines the decks up with these.

So, based on this...

Deck 12: Torpedo bay
Deck 14: Main Engineering/Hangar cotnrol room
Deck 16: Docking port/hanger deck floor
Deck 17: Floor of hanger airlock/elevator/shuttle storage
Deck 18: Floor of cargo deck/overmost shuttle storage
Deck 19: Botantical garden

Finally, looking at Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise, Shane Johnson's cutaway is almost accurate (he clearly based it on Andy's drawing), but where he messed up with whe got one too many decks in the dorsal (I suspect he mistinterpreteted that short .6 deck height non-deck at the impulse exhaust for a full deck). Otherwise, hes got everything else pretty much right (except the stuff he made up, of course).

[ December 01, 2001: Message edited by: mrneutron ]

And anyways, I think most people (including me) have always assumed the aft-saucer rim to be the location of the OL, due to the fact that any fool can see that the windows correspond exactly to those on the model in that area. It's just common sense, guys...

-MMoM

[ December 01, 2001: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]

Shane Johnson’s “Mister Scott’s Guide to the Enterprise” indicates that there is, in fact, an additional deck above the torpedo bay and below the 4th set of windows on the dorsal. His book also illustrates the Enterprise as having one additional deck being located below the botanical gardens, for a grand total of 21 decks. Johnson certainly did his homework when he put the book together, and even consulted Andrew Probert, so if he says the refit Enterprise has 21 decks, that is good enough for me. 21 decks can, after all, be reasonable fit into the existing horizontal window placement on the filming model.

Additionally, this would correspond to a scene in TUC where Scotty runs into the torpedo bay to check inventory and he passes a sign that says Deck 13. (In all fairness however, it is also TUC that establishes the refit Enterprise as a Constitution class vessel, with which I total disagree!)

Mighty Monkey of Mim,

With all due respect and no ill will, I believe that MOST people who have studied the refit Enterprise to any degree would agree that rec-deck is located at the back edge of the saucer, starboard aft. All EIGHT of those windows clearly correspond to the 8 windows on the filming model, whereas only a COUPLE of those rectangular windows are seen in the officer’s lounge. “It’s just common sense…”

Besides, various publications that have been printed over several years illustrate the location of the rec-deck quite well and quite accurately.

[ December 01, 2001: Message edited by: Commander Dan ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:

Well, I was talking about what's onscreen.

---

So am I. The nacelle outside the Rec Deck windows is on screen. You just have to look very hard to see it. Freeze the video at 29:25 and 29:31 and you can see them Not easy to see, but unmistakebly there, seen through eight rectangular windows that conform exactly to the outside of the ship.

quote:

---

It's obvious that there was little attention paid to Probert's cutaways and such.

---

On what do you base this assertion? The officer's lounge is the only blatant mistake they made. Everything else is right on the money.

quote:

---

When they went to do the DE, they put a virtual camera inside a virtual model of the Ent and that's the view from which they added the CCI window views.

---

Actually, it IS wrong. I just looked at the profile of the ship. The bottom bulge of the engine should be lined up just about perfectly with the window, but the window is clearly lower. I think they mistestimated the window height in the CG model very so slightly. Then there's the matter of the starfield going backwards at an angle that makes the ship appear to be "crabbing" through space. Oops!

quote:

---

And they used...the large aft-bulge windows for the recdeck.

---

The prosecution points to the shots shots of Decker and Ilia walking across the rec deck and ending up in front of those same rectangular windows seen in the officer's lounge. They in no way correspond to the windows below the bridge.

quote:

---

And anyways, I think most people (including me) have always assumed the aft-saucer rim to be the location of the OL, due to the fact that any fool can see that the windows correspond exactly to those on the model in that area. I's just common sense, guys...

---

Everyone I ever chatted with assumed the opposite. Theye was never any reason to assume that location prior to the DE and it's added nacelle.

The case for the Officer's lounge:
Two windows, originally seen with nothing outside them but space (and 21 years later an engine added to the view).

The case for the rec deck:
Eight windows matching exactly exterior of the ship, a nacelle also seen outside. A room clearly too wide to fit into the location below the bridge.

I'll leave it to the jury to decide.

[ December 01, 2001: Message edited by: mrneutron ]

I agree that Shane Johnson did his homework. I just don't agree that there's room for as many decks as he puts inthe dorsal, based on the window spacing and the deck heights. I'm going to have to call Andy about this deck numbering issue and get his take on it.

I think I may have found the source for this extra deck in the dorsal. There is a red alert diagram created for TMP (it's in the theatrical trailer, but wasn't used in a film until ST2) which shows the various decks of the Enterprise flashing on. If you look at this diagram there are 5 decks in the dorsal, not 4. I suspect wherever this came from, that's where the discrepancy crept in. (I also wish it was a little clearer...there is some text that appears along the various decks that I can't make out entirely...ah well!)

Then again there's the announcer who persists in announcing a travel pod at port 6 when it's clearly labeled 5. haha

[ December 01, 2001: Message edited by: mrneutron ]

Very good then. After studying some of my blueprints and diagrams I am forced to agree that it would make more sense for the torpedo bay to be on “Deck 12,” with no deck “sandwiched” in between Deck 11 and the pho-torp bay.

While I have great respect and high regards for Shane’s book, I do consider Andrew Probert the greater authority, so I would certainly be interested to know his take on the deck count. So, please give us an update if you contact him.

In any case, I think we are in agreement that a 23 deck count is certainly not feasible or realistic.

[ December 01, 2001: Message edited by: Commander Dan ]

As to the number of decks on the Enterprise refit, below is a drawing Andy Probert did to plan the landing bay/cargo dekc matte shots.

I doctored the image only as follows:

• added a red-orange wash over clearly marked deck lines and walls
• added colored washes over different compartments to clearly show their boundaries
• added pink lines where one could hypothetically have deck floors
• numbered the decks
• labeled some rooms
• illustrated where the corridor coming out of engineering would end up
  

Very cool! Many thanks! Do you, by chance, have any additional "drawings and notes" by Probert such as this? I would be most insterested to see them!
 

quote:

---

He was either unaware or did not care that Andrew Probert has designated the refit Enterprise as an Enterprise class vessel.

---

Didn't we just go over this? LOL. Whatever the reason, its been pretty firmly established that the refit Constitution is still considered Constitution-Class by TPTB. Therefore, don't bitch at him because of it.
 

I am well aware of what has been established as “cannon” on screen. And, I can accept that this is what is regarded as official to many people. But, people like you must also come to accept that there is a faction of Trek fans out there that will always regard the refit Enterprise as an Enterprise-class vessel.

Granted, Okuda’s designation made it to film, while Probert’s did not, but putting that aside, who would you give more credence; the individual who designed the refit Enterprise and worked on TMP production team, or some guy that comes along several years later that had nothing to do with TMP or the Enterprise’s re-design?

Admittedly, it has always aggravated me how the Enterprise-class designation was just ignored by Okuda and others, despite Andrew Probert’s designation, Gene Roddenberry’s approval (as documented in the 1980 Wallaby Blueprints), and over 10 years of fandom and various publications that accepted this as designation “cannon.”

--------------------

“My experience with Rick Berman is, you know, he does not understand what he's doing, he does not understand science fiction.”
-- Andrew Probert
 

Yes, I do understand that, and I'm fine with it ...

... but, correct me if I'm wrong, you're upset that Okuda labeled the Enterprise as a Constitution-Class in the TMP E commentary, right? So, uh, since its pretty much been acknowledged that the refit is the "Constitution" class (essentially ever since "The Battle" which would've used the movie Ent model if they hadn't decided to go with a new class and re-dub), what's the beef?
 

quote:

---

Granted, Okuda�s designation made it to film, while Probert�s did not

---

Well, that's not exactly the truth.

http://home.arcor.de/spike730/misc/enterpriseclass.jpg
http://home.arcor.de/spike730/misc/enterpriseclass2.jpg
 

Her's the RED ALERT diagram I memtioned before that has five decks in the dorsal:
http://home.pacbell.net/mauricem/red_alert_decks.gif

Turbolift w/Kirk:
http://home.pacbell.net/mauricem/turboshafts1.jpg

Turbolift display sans Admiral and toupee:
http://home.pacbell.net/mauricem/turboshafts2.gif

This is the turboshaft diagram that appears in the lifts in the film. It's very tough to make out how many tubes are in this, because of the clutter of what I believe to be labeling. I wish someone somewhere had gotten a behind the scenes still of this thing.

Fun stuff.
 

High Angle
Low Angle

I knocked everything but what's outside the ports to grayscale and did some edge enhancement and color boosting to make it clearer, but you can see the drydock and the pylon and the nacelle outside the windows.

Now, the other big mystery is how the Rec Deck fits vertically into the saucer, as it may be two decks high at the windows, but it's clearly too tall to fit in the saucer farther in (look at that ceiling and the height of the side walls!).

Oy!

[ December 02, 2001: Message edited by: mrneutron ]

You are absolutely, positively, without a doubt, my new hero!

I never knew that the Enterprise-class designation had ever made it to film in any form. Now, I have evidence that it was used in TWOK, well before TUC.

So then, which designation from which film supercedes the other?

I suppose the “Constitution-classers” will argue that because Scotty’s schematic was more clearly seen in TUC, that takes precedence.

I will still stick to my guns regarding the Enterprise-class designation. However, since I believe in being fair and objective, I should mention that TWOK did make at least one signage blunder. In one scene where the crew is preparing for the battle with Khan, A sign can be seen that says "Torp Bay 4." And how many torpedo tubes does the Enterprise have?

Mrneutron

Many, many thanks for all of the “goodies!”

----------------------------------------------------

“My experience with Rick Berman is, you know, he does not understand what he's doing, he does not understand science fiction.”
-- Andrew Probert

[ December 02, 2001: Message edited by: Commander Dan ]

quote:

---

So then, which designation from which film supercedes the other?

---

I'd say that the Enterprise class is a sub-class of the Constitution class. So, both films would be correct.
 

But,
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
Let's not get started again on the Constitution/Enterprise class thing.

I beseech you, kind Sirs, for I have no strength to go on!

-MMoM
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Commander Dan:
Spike,
I suppose the “Constitution-classers” will argue that because Scotty’s schematic was more clearly seen in TUC, that takes precedence.

I will still stick to my guns regarding the Enterprise-class designation.[ December 02, 2001: Message edited by: Commander Dan ]

---

Well, again, the ship seein in ST1-ST3 is one vessel, that seen in ST4-6 is a whole 'nother matter. The latter ship is very different (the corridors and everything), so maybe it's the "new model year" Constitution with the same body styling as the refit "Enterprise" classes (how Detroit), but wholly different guts.

Or maybe the refits were called Enterprise class until Kirk stole the ship, and Starfleet decided to go back to the original designation for PR reasons.

[ December 02, 2001: Message edited by: mrneutron ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by mrneutron:
Or maybe the refits were called Enterprise class until Kirk stole the ship, and Starfleet decided to go back to the original designation for PR reasons.

---

LOL!

--------------------------------------

“My experience with Rick Berman is, you know, he does not understand what he's doing, he does not understand science fiction.”
-- Andrew Probert

[ December 02, 2001: Message edited by: Commander Dan ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Commander Dan:
[QBMrneutron

Many, many thanks for all of the “goodies!”
[/QB]

---

One more goodie for ya...that possibly clarifies a matter of debate around Yellow Alert in ST2...

http://home.pacbell.net/mauricem/intruder_alert.gif

I take it the DE has not restored this graphic. (I don't own a copy coz I'm in the UK)
While I'm at it, does anyone know when the Region-2 release will be?
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shik:
OR...you can call it Enterprise-class & we can call it Constitution & we can agree that officially it's the latter, but you prefer the former for YOUR universe & yours along & won't push it on us as we won't push it on you & all is well & happy.

---

Fine. Except that the “official” (or canonical, if you prefer) designation is now open for debate since Spike has now provided us with some visual evidence that the “Enterprise-class” designation made it on screen (albeit briefly) in TWOK.

Aside from that, I am quite content to agree to disagree.

----------------------------

“My experience with Rick Berman is, you know, he does not understand what he's doing, he does not understand science fiction.”
-- Andrew Probert
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shik:
By "official," I mean "the Party line." Fuck what's "onscreen."

---

Gee, that was tactful. And who defines “the Party line?”

----------------------------

“My experience with Rick Berman is, you know, he does not understand what he's doing, he does not understand science fiction.”
-- Andrew Probert
 

[**ducks head and runs**]

-MMoM
 

quote:

---

Just like to point out that Chekov's screen in TSFS also reads "Constitution-class"...

---

But the ship on this screen was the NCC-1700 and in TOS configuration IIRC.
 

-MMoM
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:
True, but it was obviously supposed to represent the ship, as Chekov was pionting out stuff on it.

---

Now this is weird, because they could very easily have used the INTRUDER ALERT display I mentioned earlier, which shows the correct ship design AND even has a flashing indicator on the Officers Quarters Deck.

Just shows how little attention some people pay, I suppose!