So what do everyone think? Is a runabout a ship or a craft/shuttle?
I think runabouts are ships, since they have all the makings of a ship and seemed to have standard ship registries and not the name of some ship they are assigned to.
But, maybe [when encountered] it's not counted as a ship or shuttle and simply called a runabout[whatever the hell that means in naval terms]. Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Yes, I believe it to be the ship. In addition to the reasons you mention above, the producers said that they really wanted a "miniturized starship" for people to knock around on DS9.
Mark
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
It's been referred to on a number of occasions as an independant interstellar ship. It has it's own class name, The Danube Class, and they all have their own registries, as you mentioned.
Definitely starships.
On the other hand, Danubes, at times seem to serve as shuttles to. Picard and company took one in Timescape. The runabout was either from wherever they were visiting, in which case they would've gotten there some other way, or it was assigned to the Enterprise. The runabout had no visible name or registry, but I'm in the "Assigned to the Enterprise" camp.
Either way, it seems that the runabout would be capable of landing in the Ent. D Shuttle bay and that the bay would be capable of storing and servicing the craft for at least a time.
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
The runabout is capable of being landed and stored in the Enterprise's shuttle bay. The E-D delivered the original three to DS9 in Emmissary.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Right you are! I bow to the superior memory (mostly because it backs up my position, but still...) Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
The runabouts were pretty clearly defined as ships (with USS names and NCC registries).. things got hairy when it came to the Insurrection scout. I am under the assumption the scout falls into the same type of vessel as the runabout, and had a name we just werent privy to.
Posted by Jack_Crusher (Member # 696) on :
I believe that runabouts are definately their own ships, and that the one seen in Timescape was assigned to the Enterprise D, because wouldn't it seem logical for a deep-space explorer like the Ent-D to have a dedicated auxilary craft more durable and venerable than a shuttle that could do more stuff and go faster? And I also read somewhere that Galaxy class ships can carry up to 3 runabouts.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
It has the ability to carry many more than that. The main shuttle bay is huge. It may only be able to launch so many at a time, but could certainly store many more.
I agree though. It would make sense that a deep-spacer with the facilities to do so would certainly be assigned a more heavy duty support craft.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
we know that because the Galaxy class DID carry three runabouts.. the Rio Grande, Ganges and Yangtzee Kiang. They delivered them to DS9.
BTW, anyone see how big the main shuttlebay is supposed to be? i think they could carry a few more than 3, but it seems thats all they had with them at the time to spare or thats all the ones they were assigned to deliver
Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
OK, here's what I've just worked out:
Galaxy-class main shuttle bay interior = 58.64m in length and 65.80m in width. Length can accommodate 2.54 Danube-class vessels and the width can accommodate 4.80. So the main shuttle bay can hold at least 8 Danube's, possibly as many as 12.
I>Galaxy-class shuttle bay 2 interior = 25.50m in length and 21.93m in width. Length can accommodate 1.10 Danube-class vessels and the width can accommodate 1.60. So the 2nd shuttle bay can hold at least 1 Danube's, possibly 2. It will more likely be 1 in this bay as if there were two, neither would have room to move about and get through the door.
I>Galaxy-class shuttle bay 3 interior = 25.50m in length and 9.4m in width. Length can accommodate 1.10 Danube-class vessels and the width can accommodate 0.69. So the 3rd shuttle bay can hold no Danube's.
So the number of Danube's that a Galaxy can carry is between 9 and 14.
Please note that these measurements for the interior of the docking bays are just rough guesses and not exact. The heights are determined from page 11 of the TNG:TM and are taken to the point under the control rooms to where the hull starts to slope down and therefore restrict the height of a craft. The widths are of the doors and taken from page 8 of the same book. Measurements used are those given in the DS9:TM on pages 140 and 151.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
According to the Ent D blueprints, the main shuttle bay is actually comprised of almost two whole decks. Think of a parking garage for auxillary craft Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
And it's much wider than the door. From the door, it goes straight back a bit, then fans out into the oval shape of every other saucer deck.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Still, you probably don't want to cram your bays full of runabouts when you need to operate shuttles from those bays as well. The USN has toyed with flying Hercules transports or Fokker 100 jetliners from its carriers for logistics ops, but those take up awfully much parking space...
And during the first and second seasons of DS9, Sisko apparently liked the sound of "This is the UFP starship Rio Grande". I think "Vortex" was the first reference to "starship runabouts". When Sisko got the Defiant and some real starship muscle, he could drop that pretense.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
quote: Right you are! I bow to the superior memory (mostly because it backs up my position, but still...)
Well, it helped that I saw the episode yesterday. Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
In "Emissary", Sisko calls them "Runabout Class Vessels". It's odd that the writers had the fact that all the ships were named after rivers down already, but didn't have the class name down yet. I guess we could argue that Sisko just didn't know the class name. Unlikely though since he was heavily involved in starship design.
At the time of "Timescape", runabout were still fairly new. I doubt the Enterprise is assigned more than 1. Obviously, it would've carried the 3 to DS9, but I mean under normal circumstances...
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Thats an interesting question, because the DS9 TM implies that DS9 didnt have a lot of its tech 'assigned' to it and delivered, since it was a surprise when Cardies pulled out of Bajor, so a lot of equipment was 'borrowed' from ships.. i.e. those were not sent there especially for DS9, but were the Enterprise's and transferred there. If this is true it would indicate that a) either those 3 were the Enterprise's sole runabouts or b) those 3 were all the Enterprise could spare and keep some that it required for itself (i.e. the Enterprise had 4, and kept one because they absolutely needed it. By this logic they could have kept 2 or 3 too, but thats all speculation.
The DS9 TM also said that the Starfleet Corps of Engineers installed escape pods that were liberated from older starships being scrapped
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I seem to remember reading somewhere (possibly in the DS9:TM or The Making of DS9) that the runabouts were designed around the size of the station's landing pads and bays. Now, what I don't remember is whether Starfleet designed them around those size requirements or the designers of the show designed them that way. I doubt Starfleet would've designed a whole series of ships just to fit a Cardassian station design. Besides, to be delivered on such short notice, they would've already had to have been designed, tested and constructed. It's not like DS9 got the prototype or anything.
Borrowing things from Starfleet ships in the area seems to make sense. O'Brien and the Enterprise had been there for a couple of days at least IIRC. There could've been other ships dropping personnel and supplies for days.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Saying "runabout-class vessel" doesn't mean he didn't kow the name of the class. It's like saying "frigate-class vessel" or "explorer-class vessel". Esxcept that, in this case, it's more specific, since the Danubes are probably the only runabouts they have.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Star Trek writers are notorious for getting the words "Class" and "Type" mixed up.
Posted by Michael_T (Member # 144) on :
Yes, such as the Class 2/Type-9 class thing on Voyager. Anyway, I read that part of DS9 recieving salvages components from destroyed starships or starships being decommissioned such as the escape pods or the sonic showers. But I doubt that the runabouts were nearing their operational lifespan when they arrived on DS9. So either the runabouts were A) assigned on the Enterprise-D and transfered to DS9 B) being transfered by the Galaxy Class Enterprise from being salvaged by a destroyed or decommissioned starship C) being sent to DS9 because a Starfleet facillity could spare the new Federation outpost a few.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I think option "C" is the most likely.
This my be opening another can of worms but...is the "Speedboat" shuttle craft actually a type 9 or a type 12? given that neither was mention in dialog or okudagram AFAIK and that the bloke who designed it says its a type 12...this is also stated in the fact files.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
The reason Sisko would have said runabout was because that's what they were almost certainly called behind the scenes, and what they would largely be referred to on the show. He could have said "Danub-class runabouts", but since they were already introducing a new idea to the audience, maybe they didn't want to tell too much at once.
(Which compares interestingly with "Encounter at Farpoint" and it's insistence on says "Galaxy-class ship" at least once every 15 seconds. And, on the flip side, we have the Defiant, where the class wasn't said for 4 years.)
Posted by Jack_Crusher (Member # 696) on :
Well, the Defiant was a prototype. I believe, that for a time, it had an NX registry. The Defiant class was concieved after Wolf 359 in 2366, as a starship class designed specifically to fight the Borg. In my opinion, it performed splendidly during the Borg incursion of 2373, because the Defiant supposedly fought the cube all the way to Earth from the Typhon sector. And plus, Star Fleet probably gave DS9 the Defiant right out of the shop because it't right in front of the Dominion's doorway, and is only a few days from the Klingons and Romulans, and a few hours from the Cardassians.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
quote: Star Fleet probably gave DS9 the Defiant right out of the shop
but it lost most of its resale value when they drove it off the lot.. they couldve gotten a good trade in if they hadnt kept dinging the fenders there. good thing they had insurance, or theyd have never gotten a fresh new one....
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
What?
Anyway, from the Ent-D blueprints, it certainly seems that a Galaxy class could carry more than 3 or 4 runabouts.
Here's a question: What is the point of the Ent-E's captain's yacht? It seems nothing more than a glorified shuttle/Insurrection scout ship. It seems too small compared to the E-D's yacht to perform its purpose of "diplomatic and executive" functions.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I like to think it's mostly for "away team office" purposes that these big ships carry these medium ships under their chins. A "yacht" is typically big enough to serve as local accommodation or lab space for an away team, and the "yachts" of the Galaxy and the Nova seem to be optimized for planetary use only (lacking warp nacelles etc).
So when a big ship wants to leave behind an away team for an extended period and give it some autonomy, the yacht comes in handy. On the E-D, its role would probably be that of a deployable Federation Consulate. On a Nova, it would be a nifty survey base for a planetary research team. And on the E-E and Intrepid, the engineers might have added badass warp engines just because they *could*, without actually thinking the mission profile through.
Shuttles would be utility "A to B" vessels for short to medium ranges, while runabouts would be Swiss army knives for various stations and bases. The yachts wouldn't compete on those roles.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
The Danubes were brand spanking new when they were delivered to DS9. O'Brien said in "Paradise" that the first ones were commissioned about "2 years ago." That would put their introduction into service at about 6 months prior to "Emissary". So, there's no way they would've been approaching the end of their service lifetimes.
As for the Captain's Yacht...Picard would've been better off taking a shuttle or a runabout on his little voyage, especially if he thought there was a possibility of getting into a brawl. My guess is that he took the yacht to form the pretense that hisd defiance of orders was some sort fo Captain's holiday or something. Either that, or he realized that the fans had been dying to see a captain's yacht drop off the bottom of an Enterprise for about 10 years and it might be a good time to show it.... Nah...that couldn't be it.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ace: ...from the Ent-D blueprints, it certainly seems that a Galaxy class could carry more than 3 or 4 runabouts.
Carrying is one thing, support and maintain is another matter entirly.
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: As for the Captain's Yacht...Picard would've been better off taking a shuttle or a runabout on his little voyage, especially if he thought there was a possibility of getting into a brawl. My guess is that he took the yacht to form the pretense that hisd defiance of orders was some sort fo Captain's holiday or something. Either that, or he realized that the fans had been dying to see a captain's yacht drop off the bottom of an Enterprise for about 10 years and it might be a good time to show it.... Nah...that couldn't be it.
I figured that he used the Yacht because it is bigger than a standard shuttle, has a longer range, greater cargo capacity, presumably tougher sheilds and weapons. Plus the fact that its about the only new ship in that movie that they bothered to name ;-) I don't think some of you realise just how big the Captain's Yacht really is.
Personally I like to think that the new shuttle was called Galileo, thats what it said on the design sketch...besides, its tradition!
Now that I think about it, didn't someone say that Okuda named the Federation Scout Talon-Class?
[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: Reverend ]
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I think it was Talon Class in a game or something.
I have to disagree with your assessment of the Yacht's weapons and shields. I'm not sure why the Yacht would be so heavily equiped. Isn't it mostly to be used for the Captain's private excursions? I mean, sure it would have some armament, but that big shuttle Picard and Worf used to go after the Scoutship seemed pretty tough. If they have a Danube on board, that would be even better.
The Yacht did have a name though...I'll give you that Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
You're both wrong on the class name but Aban Rune is correct that it was featured in a game. The game was Star Trek: Armada and the class name is Venture.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Was Talon an fic name for Chakotay's raider or something? Or was it the name for another ship they used in a game? I know somebody used it.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: I think it was Talon Class in a game or something.
I have to disagree with your assessment of the Yacht's weapons and shields. I'm not sure why the Yacht would be so heavily equiped. Isn't it mostly to be used for the Captain's private excursions? I mean, sure it would have some armament, but that big shuttle Picard and Worf used to go after the Scoutship seemed pretty tough. If they have a Danube on board, that would be even better.
OK, looking at the schematics it appears that the shuttle and the Captain's yacht are equally armed (both have 4 phaser emmitters). However, I stand by assement of the Yacht's shields, since a ship designed for diplomatic duty would defiantly be well defended, if not so heavily armed. Also it might have enhanced engines and superior manuverability, after all you never know when an Ambassador needs to be taken in (or out) of a hostile situation. After all, its better to outrun the topedoes that to try and shoot the bugger in the giant warship who launched them at you.
As for the Talon Class, your right, someone defiantly did use it, but for the life of me I can't remember who! I was sure it was Okuda. I guess its as good a nickname as any, it beats the heck out of "Federation Scout" and you never know, if you repeat it often enough people just might accept it...kinda like the Shelly-Class
[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: Reverend ]
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
i believe the scout was called talon class in star trek: the magazine.
--jacob
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Ah ha, the plot thickens. From what I hear ST Magazine ets its info from the same source as the Fact Files, would that mean that this info is from the art department? or some other behind the scenes type blokey? which would make this name at least semi-cannon. If nothing else it would make a worthy footnote.
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
IIRC, Talon-Class is what the LUG Star Trek RPG called Data's scout vessel, with Data's ship the class ship, and including and the Sparrowhawk, NCC-75439.
Or something.
Not that RPG's don't mean scoff-all, in the wonderful world of canon.
I want to hear the loon.
[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: Ultra Magnus ]
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
The Magazine never identified Data's Scout by class or name. Now that I think about it, I think Talon was the name of a new ship designed for a game that the Magazine did talk about though. It was kind of fighter-ish IIRC.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
No that was Valkery or something like that. I thought Talon was backstage insider info.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
The Scout was called Venture class in Armada. IIRC, the Talon was the Romulan equivalent.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
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