I don't know if this topic has already been discussed, but I'd love to hear your theories.
I'm also curious if any Trek writers have ever made suggestions...
Mojo
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
They come from Borgon.
Nice little place, kind of mechanical these days.
Posted by USS Vanguard (Member # 130) on :
Sweden. Which they share with another race, the Smorgas.
Posted by Michael_T (Member # 144) on :
The Borg are definately not Sweedish, maybe once a drone was Sweedish before assimilation.
My Insane Borg Theory: Many here in the flare board believe that the Borg came about from a planet, so do I. But I believe that the Borg started out as a way for a race to enhance their lifespan, much like how people try to look for that fountain of youth. Doing this required having implants distributed throughout the species' body. Unfortuantely something went wrong either through mechanical or biological means.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
*recalling the now defunct 'You Can't Do That on Star Trek' webpage that pictures the Sweedish Chef assimilated, with a laser eye, and saying "B�rg b�rg b�rg"
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
pretty much as they are described by Guinan back when they were still 'keeping them mysterious'.. after Descent, most Borg material out there really changes their premise. The orginal Borg were changed into more emotional, dramatic beings after First Contact, because of the addition of the queen to their milieu. Imagine the quiet fury the Borg had, like a force of nature. The queen really stole the focus after that making the Borg characters rather than a story device, which detracts from their mystique. Actually these explanations cover both type of B�rgs mentioned here
Posted by Nevod (Member # 738) on :
Maybe, someone created Borg as autonomous weapon, but Borg assimilated their creators...
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Assuming this little bit of info is related a certain little book, mightn't it be worth considering that the Starfleet of the 24th or even 25th century mightn't know where the Borg came from?
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Modification of the T2 theory: artificial intelligence network goes awry, builds constructs, somehow in course of conflict constructs end up being merged with "leftover flesh" due to experiments &/or parts shortage, resultant combination found to be far superior to pure artificiality. Assimilative hilarity ensues.
Posted by Mojo (Member # 536) on :
Given how often Voyager encountered the Borg, how much we probably downloaded from them over the years AND that we have 7 of 9, I'm assuming Starfleet knows pretty much everything there is to know about the Borg - including their history.
There's one intriguing idea I like that I'll probably go with, but I was curious to hear what everyone here thought - of it it's been discussed elsewhere.
Mojo
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
It strikes me that the simplest and, in my opinion, most interesting (and relevant) origin for the Borg is that they were just another sentient species that crossed a Vingeian Singularity.
And they think we'd really, really like to join them.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
IIRC, the only thing we know about the Borg's past is that the Vaudwaar didn't find them all that impressing about 9000 years ago.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
That's 900 years ago, and what do the Waadwaur know anyway? Humans didn't find the Borg all that impressive 900 years before TNG, either.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Did you want to know where the Borg CAME from... or how they BECAME!?!
Wasn't there a recent thread about this - the only info that we ever had that they came from the Delta Quadrant before "Scorpion" was the first Encyclopaedia where it says that the Borg are from the Denkiri arm of the Milky Way Galaxy.
Any Borg history, I'd go with Guinan over the Vaadwaur.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
The deal with the Waadwaur apparently was that the writers wanted to show us how this seemingly victimized race in fact was rather scary. I mean, they see a Borg and say "Oh, a Borg. I've seen them around."... *Then* we learn these people have huge stockpiles of weapons. While the *Borg* might not think much of the Waadwaur, the *heroes* and the *audience* should be pretty scared of them by that point.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I never minded the Queen in FC. I didn't like what they did with her in Voyager, though. I never minded the thought of the Queen being the manifestation of the Colelctive Consciousness, but having her be an individual, separate and above the Collective ruined the whole thing for me.
Along the lines of the "increasing the lifespan" theory, I've always pictured the Borg as having started out as a species like any other. I think the Queen told Data that they were "once like you" or something, indicating that they were once alot more organic and individual than they are now. I think that that species overdeveloped their technology and dependance on computer systems. Perhaps in one bold move to try and stop war and crime and disease, they linked themselves to central computer, much like the small group did in "Unity". With the benefits of a collective will they continued to grow and assimilate until the original race was simply swallowed up. It wouldn't surprise me if even the Borg don't remember where they started.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
History is irrelevant. Origin is irrelevant. Destiny is inevitable. You will be assimilated.
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
Harry, remember Data: Resistance is NOT futile... Kabooom. End of Borg Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
i could almost see them starting as a crazy cult of some sort of technology-spiritualists.. the queens diatribes in First Contact seemed very dogmatic
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
I prefer what I think Gene Roddenberry's concept of them was: That the Borg once were a purely organic race that began using mechanical devices to improve themselves. At first they were separate entities, the mechanicals and organics. But then they started using cybernetic devices to improve themselves, only it got out of hand. They lost their "humanity". At some point they did what Sol suggested. Their species evolved into a collective conciousness and then into an assimilating one. Think; Data, Geordi (FC,I), Bynars, Borg.
This way, it illustrates another warning (which was GR's way) about not losing our humanity in the face of technology. Also, it means that the Borg's state is their own fault, which is always better drama. And it gives them a suitably long period of time to evolve that way, they could've been Geordi's when the Vaadwaur encountered them.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
That article linked by Sol was VERY interesting...
I'm reminded of the little data port that we've seen used on "Andromeda" from time to time (didn't we see something like it in "A Simple Investigation" too?). It's basically a temporary neural link from the brain into the computer network, which expands and intensifies the brain's contacts and capabilities. Basically, the concept of Intelligence Amplification.
While not exactly related, I'm also reminded of a bit of technology from the novel "Conqueror's Pride" by Timothy Zahn. It's basically another form of IA, but the twist is that the humans using the computer interface became "addicted" to the experience and spent more and more time connected to the net.
Take these two ingredients one step further, and start with two people linking their minds together through the computer network... and viola, you get a Borg Collective.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I think the Queen's line was "...humans, we used to be exactly like them" From this you could say that the original Borg (Species 01 I presume) were wholey organic beings dedicate to science and exploration but somewhere along the way as Gene said they became over reliant on technology, lost their humanity along the ability or the desire to procreate and ended up preying on other species to survive. There are quite a few examples of aliens that use other species to increase their own numbers, those invisible things that convert alien DNA into their own "Identity Crisis"(TNG), that delta quadrant race that reanimates the dead bodies of aliens, those women who have Harry Kim spots...
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
quote: those women who have Harry Kim spots
i always wonder why she didnt just clean the blue dress
[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: CaptainMike ]
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
quote:Originally posted by Austin Powers: Harry, remember Data: Resistance is NOT futile... Kabooom. End of Borg
Foolish human. The Borg will return and continue to prevail, so long as it helps make the Trek franchais profitable.
Posted by Michael_T (Member # 144) on :
The franchise did bring back the Andorians, so we never know...
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I feel compelled to point out that onToMars description of Gene Roddenberry's idea of the Borg is pretty much exactly the same idea that was behind the Cybermen from Doctor Who. About twenty years earlier.
Posted by Mojo (Member # 536) on :
I could be wrong about this, but I could swear I've read that Roddenberry thought that the Borg came from Decker and Ilia fusing with V'ger... the machine race realizing that it could not evolve without a certain quality only possessed by organic life forms...
Mojo
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
That sounds interesting. I would be really keen to know where that came from. Could anyone back that up?
@David: You know I was only being sarcastic, don't you? Hence the " "smiley. Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Gene didn't invent the borg... it was Maurice Hurley or what ever his name was...
The Ilia Decker V'Ger thing doesn't work out - because Guinan states they are - what was it thousands of years old... or was it thousands of millenia?
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
Roddenberry's statement, as far as I know, was that the Borg took the probe and made it as we saw it in TMP. He was also joking.
HOWEVER, the Shatner/Reeves-Stevens "Return of Kirk" books actually go even further with that, when the Borg invade and Kirk & Picard actually have something in common. Personally, I like what they did and thought it worked. But unfortunetley, its noncanon.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Yah, Mojo. I think what you're thinking of is the comment that was made about the machine planet that the Voyager probe apparently encountered that changed it. It was suggested that that planet was a Borg planet. However, the Borg would've existed long before the Voyager probe.
I liked what they did with that whole thing in the book too. Especially how that fact that Spock had melded with V'Ger gave him a certain relationship with the Borg. Pretty cool.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
I might guess that the Borg originated as a society something like 1984. The implants would be something like uber-thought police. Such a hive mind would seem to be the logical conclusion of such a society.
My problem with the Borg has always been, exactly what is this hive mind? It's CAN'T be the collective, average will of all the drones, because the majority would have been unwilling assimilates. I'm wondering if the collective consiousness isn't some sort of self-replicating computer program...
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Well, I would submit that, since anyone assimilated into the Collective seems to hear the voices of the everyone in his head, they assimilated are probably completely swept away. Try thinking for yourself when 50 people shout in your simultaneously. Now, picture those voices in your mind, knowing what you're thinking, scared, panicked, telling you what to do... it seems that it would be basically impossible to keep a hold on your individuality.
Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
quote:Originally posted by Michael_T: The franchise did bring back the Andorians, so we never know...
OK . . . now I'm lost. When did the Andorians get lost?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I think that was a reference to the fact that theh were pulled out of the obscurity of being nothing but background extras...
Posted by Mojo (Member # 536) on :
I don't know, I'm really taken with the idea that the Borg already existed as a machine race, but that Decker and Ilia fusing with V'Ger was the turning point for them - realizing that organic life forms should not be wiped out, but JOINED with - that they hold a valuable asset - is a very intriguing concept.
It also ties everything together, which I like.
Although, at the time, it seemed like joining with V'Ger was the right, wonderous, beautiful thing to do - it would be ironic if that was the moment that evolved the Borg into the creatures that we know and love today.
It would go back to what Q was warning us about - Humans aren't ready for everything, and our actions can have far-flung ramifications; even things we cannot conceive of.
This one came back to bite us.
Mojo
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
I'm rather ick on the idea of tying V'Ger and the Borg together, Moj. Largely, I guess, for the reason that the Borg have almost certainly been scooting about assimilating people for longer than either the the events of TMP of the launch of Voyager 6. But I'm also a little wary about the notion of the book filling in huge sweeping Trek timeline holes. I mean, there's "Unseen" and then there's "Unseen." Showing us the Battle of Donatu V is one thing, but explaining away such longstanding sources of fan speculation as say the Klingon forehead dilemma is probably going to irk more people than it satisfies. I think taking the big leap and explaining the origin of the Borg in great detail and with a pretty "pat" explanation that ties in Kirk and co. to a pan-Galactic menace falls under that category. Vaguely intimating that Starfleet suspects the Borg were a race that let technology run amok is probably less likely to give the reader the impression that the book is swinging in and "messing" with their view of Trek canon.
Am I making sense?
Posted by G.K Nimrod (Member # 205) on :
I can't tell, my eyelids are dropping down all the time. Also, that thing Sol slipped in under the door was very depressing. Talk about killing God. I don't like gloomy prophecies, they give me a bellyache, and I've got a beauty right now.
And it's "swedish"! Single E! If there's one thing this damn country doesn't need it's additional E's!
I think Berlinghoff might've accidentally created the borg as he used the john on that timeship of his, see what you can make of that. Ho Ho, fu*king ho, delta quad!
Posted by G.K Nimrod (Member # 205) on :
Oh, and Tom? Can you please check your personal message bin, you kind of missed out on the "feedback" department. I sent Capps some too but he couldn't be arsed, apparently. (New addition for Oxford English Dictionary 3rd Edition, "Arsed". Scout's honor) .-)
Posted by Kosa (Member # 650) on :
Although I like the Borg, one aspect annoys me about them. If the Borg have been around for so long and assimilated so many species, you would think they would be able to prevent all the damn boarding parties that the Voyager crew seems to love so much.
Or can this be seen as a downside to a collective mind? I would be interested to know what explanation there is for the Borg’s tech level as opposed to how long they have been around and how many species they have assimilated.
The TNG Borg and even the FC Borg seem so much more believable than the Voyager Borg. Maybe the Borg have only mainly encountered species with tech levels below that of Voyager and aren’t as untouchable as they should be.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Borg: "We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own..."
Why would they need to add human biology if they are already - if you go by the silly V'Ger=Borg mummy idea - in part HUMAN.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Mojo, I like the idea of tying the two plot lines together. The thing that mostly would make it unworkable in my opinion (and this has pretty much been stated above) is that the time line already clearly contradicts it. The Queen has intimated that the Borg were once organic and other races have been familiar with the Borg way before the events of TMP.
I don't have any problem believing that V'Ger and the Borg are somehow connected (how many machine planets/races do we want in this galaxy, anyway?) but I just can't swallow the idea that V'Ger represented a fundamental shift in the Borg's existance.
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
since v'ger had "learned all that was possible to be learned" (or something like that) in this galaxy or even the whole universe, i don't think that anything made from v'ger would have any problem getting rid of a pesky federation of planets in a backwoods part of the galaxy. also, all canon trek timelines and, IMNSHO, common sense rule out the borg being related to v'ger (or at least coming from v'ger). Besides, who would want to determine anything that momentous based on a shatner novel .
--jacob
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
Kosa: Knowledge assimilated by the Borg are suppose to be evenly distributed throughout the collective. What one cube knows, eventually all does.
The Borg in Voyager assimilated Braga and a whole bunch of bad writers, that's why they're so weak.
Posted by Kosa (Member # 650) on :
Posted by Mojo (Member # 536) on :
A friend of mine thinks the Doomsday machines were invented to fight the Borg.
What a cool pic THAT would make - a blast from the Doomsday Machine tearing a cube apart - kind of like the way we see houses get torn apart by the shockwave from a nuclear blast...
COOL! Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:A friend of mine thinks the Doomsday machines were invented to fight the Borg.
Maybe he has read Peter David's novel "Vendetta".
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Or maybe Peter David IS his friend.. nothing surprises me anymore about Mr. Mojo.
Posted by thoughtcriminal84 (Member # 480) on :
Just a thought, but why would the Borg have to assimilate an entire race to add their biological distinctiveness to their own? Shouldn't a few thousand or so be enough of a cross section to represent the race? Heh. I guess cloning and genetic expermentation aren't allowed in the Collective, either.
And another thing: I don't remember ever seeing a Borg drone that had a bumpy (re: alien) head. They were all human looking--excepting the goth makeup and robot puke all over their bodies. Where are all the alien drones?
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
"First Contact"
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Yes, First Contact gave us Klingon, Cardassian, and Bolian Borg.
I also love the notion that the Doomsday machines were created to fight the Borg. I thought that was one of the better tie-ins from the novels.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I love that too, and would love to see the ole' half-smoked joint square off against a cube with that massive weapon.
For Mojo: "Vendetta" is one of Peter David's better early works in Trek novellia. The plot revolves around the "big sister" to the Doomsday Machine, both built by a race of aliens just outside the galaxy to fight the Borg. The idea was for the DM to be released in Borg space, feeding on Borg-infested worlds in an ironic way to destroy the entire collective. The DM we all know and love was a prototype for the main monster, but for some reason the aliens couldn't finish it before they were destroyed, and released the prototype early. In the novel, someone makes note that the straight line through Federation space the DM would have taken would have also continued straight through to Borg space (at that time in TNG, they hadn't yet established the Alpha/Beta/Gamma/Delta quadrant concept).
Anyway, the Big Sister DM floated unfinished just outside the galaxy, until a member of Guinan's race (still not established as El-Aurians) found it. She was really pissed that the Borg had destroyed her world, saw the opportunity, and finished the machine before taking it on a joyride through Federation territory towards Borg space, munching up cubes along the way. It was a pretty cool novel, with a really cool climactic battle between the Enterprise-D, The Excelsior-class Repulse and Chekhov, the BSDM, and three cubes. Fun stuff.
Mark
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
not the Chekhov.. the Chekov! (obviously newly built as a replacement for the Chekov lost at Wolf 359)
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Not if she was an Excelsior-class ship, she wasn't. Digging the novel out though, we see that David has indeed named the ship Chekov.
Mark
[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Nguyen ]
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
I have neither the time nor the inclination to begin the 'new-build Excelsior argument' anew.
The Chekov was destroyed at Wolf 359. A new Chekov was in commission several months later. The new Chekov was Excelsior-class. The new Excelsior-class Chekov did not exist as of Wolf 359.
Make what you will of that.
Mojo, if you ever want to model this confrontation, there are 3 TNG era style Borg cubes involved, a doomsday machine (which, according to the text of the novel, had additional crystalline 'spires' that were left off the prototype seen in TOS; the Galaxy-class Enterprise 1701-D the Excelsior-class Repulse NCC-2544 (as seen in 'The Child' its nacelles were of the non-blue-glow variety) the Excelsior-class Chekov. It might be a E-B wariant Excelsior to make it easier to make out in the picture. Its registry should probably be in the 4xxxx range since it is a recent Excelsior (unless it could be put in the 6xxxx to make it a sister ship to the Melbourne )
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike: The new Excelsior-class Chekov did not exist as of Wolf 359.
I'm not sure about that. IIRC Korsmo said that he didn't arrive in time with the Chekov at Wolf 359.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
i thought the same thing Spike, and although i don't have the book handy, i thought it only said that Korsmo's ship was too late for the battle.
Meaning he could have been in command of another vessel at the time.
Of course, since i dont have the book here i cant verify that.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
In any case, we're debating a novel, folks. I think that if the idea were to be carried-through with, it would be better for Unseen Frontier to envision its own meeting between the DM and the Borg rather than adopting Mr. David's take.
Posted by mrneutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mojo: A friend of mine thinks the Doomsday machines were invented to fight the Borg.
What a cool pic THAT would make - a blast from the Doomsday Machine tearing a cube apart - kind of like the way we see houses get torn apart by the shockwave from a nuclear blast...
COOL!
Wayyyyy back in 1989 a friend of mine, who read heavy physics books for entertainment, found a mathematical formula for neutronium (hypothetically matter you would find in a neutron star). The mass figures were astronomical for even a teaspoon of the stuff. So, that go us wondering how massive a pure neutronium cone as seen on the show would be. So, we figured it's size relative to the Enterprise, thickness, etc. A little math and the number ended up having so many zeroes it was frightening. In fact, the thing wouldn't need a tractor beam...it's gravitational pull alone would suck stuff towards it!
The funny thing was, we realized that any power source capable of moving something so super-masssive would never be able to be disabled by a mere 97.835 megaton blast, and THAT suggested a story. I wrote it, pitched it, but it was too hard SF for TNG I guess. (Oh my God, REAL science? On Star Trek?!)
Hey Mojo, if you're curious, I'll dig up the math we did and fire it your way.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Well, at least the DM is the right size to make a battle with a cube interesting Ex astris "huge chart" but it would have to be a fair way away to get a blast wide enough to encompass the whole cube. The DM is more likely to punch a large hole clean through the middle of the cube...now that I'd like to see!
[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Reverend ]
Posted by Mojo (Member # 536) on :
No, Peter David isn't a friend of mine - although he did marry my friend's sister!
Now that you mention it, I think my friend did say he read it in that novel.
I still can't get the image of a Borg Cube in a Tholian Web out of my head. I just want to see that!
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
quote: Anyway, the Big Sister DM floated unfinished just outside the galaxy, until a member of Guinan's race (still not established as El-Aurians) found it.
Sorry, Mark, but she's not a member of Guinan's race. Her people had been destroyed by the Borg, and she wandered the galaxy for years until she found the El-Aurians. She had a second family with them, and then lost everything again when the Borg struck. Naturally, she was really pissed off after this.
I wouldn't mind seeing this depicted either, particularly since the Doomsday Machine, Mark Two is a LOT bigger than the original. It's "hundreds of miles long," and it also looks more intimidating as well. To quote the novel,
"Foremost was a wide circular opening in the front, like a huge, gaping mouth. It was miles wide, like an entranceway to a tunnel stright down to hell. From within there were flickerings of some ungodly light, like unseen demons dancing around a towering pyre. The thing then immediately angled straight down, the mouth projecting forward while the rest of the body spiralled down at a ninety-degree angle to it. It twisted and turned all the way to the bottom, looking for all the world like some sort of spacegoing cyclone.
"The most notable feature, however, was the huge series of projections that extended from all over the exterior. They were the longest and most densely packed around the maw, huge pointed towers miles high that came to points, packed so densely that they overlapped. Yet there was a symmetry to them, a sense of deadly beauty and purpose. With the combination of the flickering within the maw itself, and the dazzling projections so thickly set around the mouth, it gave the impression of a massive, moving, highly stylized starburst. A moving sun, consuming whatever was in its path."
Add to this the fact that it is intelligently controlled (unlike its predecessor), and you've got one hell of a weapon.
[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: Woodside Kid ]
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I stand corrected. Been a while since I read the thing.
Mark
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
The blast didn't destroy the entire DM/PK - just the mechanisms inside it.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
yeah, if the internal mechanisms are in fact made of new age crystals, 97 or so megatons should do the trick quite nicely.
Alien designer #1: Shouldn't we make the mechanism a little stronger.. these NewAge™�� Crystals are kinda fragile.. what if the Borg try to break them?
Alien designer #2: There's solid neutronium around them.
#1: Dude, but the...
#2: Neutronium.
#1: Well, I mean..
#2: Neu-tron-i-um.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Borg in Thollie web.. I see no problems with that, aside from perhaps the Tholian Assembly (allegedly) being to the South East of the Federation.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Borg vs Tholians...I'd like to see them try it Do remember how long it took them to spin a web around a piddly little Constitution-Class? it would take them forever to ensnare a Borg cube and I dout they'd just sit there like a dumbass. Still, it would be an interesting image Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
In the "Vendetta" novel (which I guess we're peripherally discussing here), the Tholians got better at it - they were done in a matter of minutes. Unfortunately, even the advanced web couldn't handle the BSDM's super duper anti-proton beam.
Mark
Posted by mrneutron (Member # 524) on :
Of Planet Killers and Neutronium
Like so many things on Star Trek the trouble here is that the writers stumble upon a cool sounding substance but don't think of the ramifictions of using it. Sorry Mr. Spinrad!
The big issue is the mass of the stuff. Anything that masses 100 million tons per tablespoon is gonna have a killer gravitational pull (imagine a basketball with the Earth's mass and a surface gravity of something approaching a million Gees).
Yes, the entire thing couldn't be made entirely out of neutronium as there had to be mechanisms inside it.
BUT, this is the Catch 22.
To REMAIN neutronium the object has to have a mass as least 1 sun. The less neutronium there is in the object the more likely it is to fall below this minimum mass. Once it does, boom! No more neutronium. So, if it's dense enough to remain neutronium, it's surface gravity would be so intense that any mechanisms inside it would be crushed into neutronium itself. (Instant neutronium! Just add gravity!)
Okay, maybe the builders floated the mechanism in the (hollow) at the machine's center of mass, so it would be pulled on equally from all sides, but as gravitational pull increases the closer you get the the center of massm the pull on the various parts of this would be uneven as well (I could be wrong). I'd imagine even this would get all those mechanisms smashed instantaneously.
(Hmmm, or maybe that's what the 97.835 megaton blast did...nudge the mechanism a nanometer out of balance and the gravity ripped it apart.)
Oh, and all this forgetting the fact that the Planet Killer is an unstable shape and there would have to be some amazing power exerted just to keep it from collapsing onto itself and becoming a nice smooth sphere.
So, the machine had to exert some kind of power that would negate its own gravitation pull. What kind of power source could it possibly be?! The only thing my friend and I could think of was a Hawking-esque "Leaky" Black Hole, but that raises a whole bunch of other issues.
No matter how you slice it a neutonium is massive beyond belief and it's probably the worst substance to use as a construction material (and I won't even get into the subject of shed electron valences and the "quark soup" nature of the material).
Fun!
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
hey, if a dyson sphere can be made of neutronium, a planet killer sure as hell can be. maybe the ship has a quintesence field generator, or some other technobabble.
--jacob
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Somehow by the 24th century... they have stablised neutronium... the door to the Founder's compound in What You Leave Behind was made of neutronium.
Posted by mrneutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Somehow by the 24th century... they have stablised neutronium... the door to the Founder's compound in What You Leave Behind was made of neutronium.
Uh huh, and gotten rid of all that messy gravitational pull too. Suuure... Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Personally, neutronium in ST is not the same thing as it is today. Instead of being the neutron only material that we know it as. The only good explaination is another extremely extremely dense material.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Somehow by the 24th century... they have stablised neutronium... the door to the Founder's compound in What You Leave Behind was made of neutronium.
I can't stop giggling at the idea of Garek, Dumar, Kira, and everyone else near the door plastered agains it like flies on fly paper, cockroaches in a cockroach trap.
Posted by mrneutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by David Templar: [QUOTE]I can't stop giggling at the idea of Garek, Dumar, Kira, and everyone else near the door plastered against [the neutronium door] like flies on fly paper, cockroaches in a cockroach trap.
Hahaha...that IS a pretty funny image.
Posted by mrneutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by J: Personally, neutronium in ST is not the same thing as it is today. Instead of being the neutron only material that we know it as. The only good explaination is another extremely extremely dense material.
I guess so. After all, this is the same Star Trek universe where stars can eject rocky "stellar core fragments" (The Naked Now), which is a neat trick when you consider that a star's core should simply be hydrogen (or helium in an old star) fusing under tremendous pressure. Remove the pressure, and poof, free hydrogen! So, if you have to accept rocky cored stars, I guess neutronium-that-isn't is no less believeable.
But of course, once you start down this slope, nothing has to be what it is in our world...only the names have been retained but none of the properties. (So THAT'S why they called them "lithium crystals".)
Posted by Nevod (Member # 738) on :
Sorry for interrupting, but I just got a thought:
1) We once succeeded in adding mouse's nerves into computer. Why not to try to clone human's nerves and do the same?
2) By some predictions, quantum computers may be tens of billions times faster than current supercomputers. One carbon atom used for this managed to beat 100 flops.
3) Just imagine that now we have efficient brain-computer link at speed of 1 gigabyte per second, linked to such a comp....
"Evening: Will test that new comp during night. Morning: Damn, what's these implants on me?! Oh no! I'm Borg!!!"
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
nevermind, i accidentaly posted in the wrong thread.
[ January 12, 2002: Message edited by: EdipisReks ]
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Mike:LOL
I too like the idea that the Doomsday Machine was constructed to destroy the Borg. It lends credence to it's builders inspiration. Here we had been conceiving of an escalating stalemate between two strategic equals (much like the Cold War the message of the episode intended to convey). To suddenly have the irresistable and unstoppable force of the Borg as the weapon's target seems to validate the builder's cause. The constructors suddenly seem less like madmen, and more like tragically flawed and desperate engineers vainly assembling a last ditch effort to conquer an unbeatable foe. I'm not sure that rationalizing the Doomsday Machine's purpose is a good thing, but if nothing else it is interesting.
Hey, wasn't this post about where the Borg came from? I'm liking the Swedish theory, although Iceland might be more appropriate (see Bj�rg)
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
*imagines trillions of Björk clones in a collective, singing together* *shudders in pain*
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Ah, so thats where all that helium went. *runs out and buys some earplugs*
As for the Doomsday Machine's neutronium skin...it might actually explain how it was so easily disabled, if there was some kind of mechanism controlling the intense gravity field then it would have been inside the maw, so then a detonation inside the thing could have damaged that mechanism and caused the skin to collapse in on itself. Power source? Well I assume a not-so-micro singularity would do the trick. Also with all that intensely focused gravity you could probably fashion a pretty nifty means of propulsion...graviton spatial impeller or something. I think that ties up most of the problems.
Never let science get a good writer down (or a really bad one)
[ January 13, 2002: Message edited by: Reverend ]
Posted by mrneutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: As for the Doomsday Machine's neutronium skin...if there was some kind of mechanism controlling the intense gravity field then it would have been inside the maw, so then a detonation inside the thing could have damaged that mechanism and caused the skin to collapse in on itself.
Except for the trifling on-screen detail that it doesn't collapse in on itself. It just goes from blue to gray (how Civil War...).
quote:Power source? Well I assume a not-so-micro singularity would do the trick.
I've heard of singularities being used as power sources before on Star Trek, but I've never understood how the heck you're supposed to use such a thing as a power source. Seems like all it would do is suck matter in.
A naked singularity is a singularity without an event horizon. In other words, it is a point in space in which general relativity predicts would have infinite density which is observable from the outside.
quote:Also with all that intensely focused gravity you could probably fashion a pretty nifty means of propulsion...graviton spatial impeller or something.
Well, my friend and I thought if you had an object with so much mass and the kind of almost limitless power it would take to keep it from collapsing a crude bent-space warp field somewhat feasible. I don't know what a "graviton spatial impeller" is.
quote:Never let science get a good writer down (or a really bad one)
That's where we disagree. I think it's possible to deal with plausible science and still be dramatic. Sometimes the science itself could suggest a story.
For instance, a planet killer with that much gravity could just INHALE a gas giant's mass...theoretically it could also suck up a STAR. That would have made for a cool sequence. And it wouldn't even HAVE to attack planets to be deadly. It's gravitational force alone would disrupt orbits with catastophic results. So, even deactivited it would be a menace. Furthermore, if you can somehow drop the a neutronium object's mass below that 1 sun bottom limit (say, it's starved for power and you trick it into consuming some of its own mass), it would explosively decay back into protons and electrons. A mini nova wa-VOOM!
But, this would require Star Trek to have a real science advisor on the show and not leave it to the art dept. guys to fill in what blanks they can in whatever free time they have after naking this week's props.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
A blackhole actually puts out quite a bit of energy from evaporating. I can't remember the exact science, something to do with M/AM though.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote: Except for the trifling on-screen detail that it doesn't collapse in on itself. It just goes from blue to gray (how Civil War...).
So it was collapsing very slowly. I said the mechanisum could have been damaged, not destroyed.
quote: I've heard of singularities being used as power sources before on Star Trek, but I've never understood how the heck you're supposed to use such a thing as a power source. Seems like all it would do is suck matter in.
You'd think so, but since we've seen 2 races use black holes as a power source then it must work somehow.
quote: A naked singularity is a singularity without an event horizon. In other words, it is a point in space in which general relativity predicts would have infinite density which is observable from the outside.
I know what a singularity is.
quote: Well, my friend and I thought if you had an object with so much mass and the kind of almost limitless power it would take to keep it from collapsing a crude bent-space warp field somewhat feasible. I don't know what a "graviton spatial impeller" is.
Well my friend, neither do I, it's called "MAKING IT UP" its some new fangled technique that a few obscure science fiction writers are using these days, perhaps it just slipped past you.
But I'm sure with a rather basic knowledge of the english language and if you get stuck, a dictionary, you may be able to decypher what a "graviton spatial impeller" might actually do.
quote: That's where we disagree. I think it's possible to deal with plausible science and still be dramatic. Sometimes the science itself could suggest a story.
And some people couldn't spot subtle sarcasum if it walk up and bout them a bunch of flowers.
quote: For instance, a planet killer with that much gravity could just INHALE a gas giant's mass...theoretically it could also suck up a STAR. That would have made for a cool sequence. And it wouldn't even HAVE to attack planets to be deadly. It's gravitational force alone would disrupt orbits with catastophic results. So, even deactivited it would be a menace. Furthermore, if you can somehow drop the a neutronium object's mass below that 1 sun bottom limit (say, it's starved for power and you trick it into consuming some of its own mass), it would explosively decay back into protons and electrons. A mini nova wa-VOOM!
Maybe so, but it didn't.
quote: But, this would require Star Trek to have a real science advisor on the show and not leave it to the art dept. guys to fill in what blanks they can in whatever free time they have after naking this week's props.
Indeed.
Posted by mrneutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:So it was collapsing very slowly. I said the mechanisum could have been damaged, not destroyed.
Yes, but Spock said, "Power level zero." "It's quite dead." so that's debateable.
quote:Well my friend, neither do I, it's called "MAKING IT UP" its some new fangled technique that a few obscure science fiction writers are using these days, perhaps it just slipped past you. But I'm sure with a rather basic knowledge of the english language and if you get stuck, a dictionary, you may be able to decypher what a "graviton spatial impeller" might actually do.
I simply said, "That's where we disagree. I think it's possible to deal with plausible science and still be dramatic," and, "I don't know what a 'graviton spatial impeller is," as that term was used without further explanation. I don't believe these merited the ungentlemanly tone of response they received.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote: Yes, but Spock said, "Power level zero." "It's quite dead." so that's debateable.
and of course 23rd century sensors are omnipotent and infallible.
quote: I simply said, "That's where we disagree. I think it's possible to deal with plausible science and still be dramatic," and, "I don't know what a 'graviton spatial impeller is," as that term was used without further explanation. I don't believe these merited the ungentlemanly tone of response they received.
I wasn't trying to coin a new term; I just strung a series of apparently relevant words together that I assumed anyone with grounding in English could figure out for themselves.
I could have written a 10 page essay on the physics of spatial distortion propulsion based on the gravitic funnelling of super massive netronium based quatumalloytranstie matrices powered by Class B binary, cyclical singularities encased in a multi-spatial vetrixing chamber....but of course it would all have been a load of dingo’s kidneys.
Hands up anyone who would even bother to read such an over extraneous and pointless essay!
The bottom line is the thing was big, powerful ancient, greatly advanced and very mysterious, so it really doesn't matter a great deal exactly HOW it moved because it obviously did...
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I wouldn't sweat this neutronium inertia thing too much. Mastery of gravity is the cheapest trick in the box for Trek races - even a Pakled ship or a 1996-vintage Earth rocket has perfectly functioning artificial gravity aboard. And gravity control is reliable, the last thing to go when the ship is falling apart around you.
Just use one of 'em subspace fields to negate the inertial mass of the ship, and another (spiced with gravitons) to contain the neutronium, and then do the remaining magic of negating the gravitational mass of the thing by turning your trusty old artificial gravity device on reverse.
As for the power source, just let one of your magical gadgets leak a bit, and use the resulting localized gravitational pull to create a perpetual-motion machine. You know, the time-honored model where gravity pulls one side of a conveyor belt down, while the other side is in a no-gravity or inverted-gravity zone and thus rises effortlessly. The Star Trek version of thermodynamics is full of loopholes like that.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Black holes radiate Hawking radiation, I believe, and the power emitted is, um...inversely proportional to the size of the hole.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Don't you dis Bj�rk
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Heaven's no. But we're talking about the insidiously cute collective of clones known as the Bj�rg.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Don't you dis Bj�rk"
Björk sucks a whole whole lot.
Oh, wait, you said "don't"... Just pretend I didn't say that out loud.
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
Believe it or not, I'm listening to one of her CDs right this moment. "Post", in case you're wondering.
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