The Borg attack at Wolf 359 was the first real punch in the nose we really saw happen to Starfleet in the TNG era. Before that, Starfleet was arguably invincible - big, powerful, with weaponry able to wreck whole planets if need be. Then, 40 starships were lost at the hands of one Borg vessel. This has formed the root of what has become the most discussed, analysed, and memorable battles in Star Trek history - possibly in all of science-fiction.
What we saw on the screen affected us on a very viscreal, and even more emotional level - compounded by the fact that we never really *saw* the battle. Two years and change later, we were finally treated to a snippet of that fight, with the opening scenes of "Emissary". At the same time, that scene raised questions aplenty.
What I'm asking you now, is what the big QUESTIONS of Wolf 359, and of the whole Borg incursion, that there are. What DON'T we know, and what us fans would LIKE to know. We've answered a few questions, and speculated on a million more already, right here on this forum. What I want to do is form a list of the big QUESTIONS that cannot be answered by canonical evidence.
I don't want answers! Just the big questions. With this list, it can put into context what we the fans feel are the most important things we'd want to know about the battle, and what we the fans really want the answers to. This in turn may provide a common base from which we can stage future analyses.
I'll start off:
- What ships were at Wolf 359, aside from the ones we already know of?
- Who were the captains of the ships there? How many Admirals could have been there? What are their stories?
- Where'd all the escape pods go?
- Were there Starfleet cadets at Wolf 359? What role could the Academy have played?
- Just how long did the battle last? How long did Starfleet have to assemble its fleet?
-Where was the rest of the Fleet when Sisko's USS Saratoga was attacking? Why were only five ships seen in the opening scenes? Did the Saratoga's attack represent the beginning of the battle, or some point later on?
-What tactics did Starfleet try on the cube? Did they attempt anything hi-tech, or go for a traditional brawl of a battle?
-Why was the Excelsior-class starship blown apart within a few seconds, while it took several minutes for the Borg to take apart the Saratoga?
-We know that some people were assimilated during the battle. How many were assimilated? How did the Borg rationalize the number and type of people assimilated? Were civilians assimilated too?
- What was going on at Starfleet Command while the cube was coming? How about during the battle?
- Was there any sort of evacuation attempt from Earth? Where was all the civilian traffic?
That's a good beginning. What other questions are there? What do we want to know? Remember, I don't want this thread to have ANY ANSWERS to any of the questions asked. Leave that for another thread. Just questions, people.
Have at it!
Mark
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
How did they assimilate people if they were blowing up their ships?
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
I'd imagine the Borg used their tractor beams to grab escape pods ... or, they used their transporters to beam crewmembers off ships who'd lost their shields.
How did they get assimilated crewmembers back to the Delta Quad?
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
That's an answer, Snay. Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
Yes it is Veers but he kinda made up for it by asking a question as well.
With regard to the transportation of assimilated people to the Delta Quadrant, here's a sub question: Didn't Shatner's book address this issue with some sort of subspace/transwarp transporter system?
Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
This is a cool thread Mark, and you've posed some interesting queries. Here's one that comes to mind:
Just what kind of defensive structures and protocols does Starfleet have in place to deal with such threats to Earth? And what part did they play, if any, in the Borg attack? The Mars defense perimeter was pretty lame, and 40 starships, most quite old, wasn't much of a counter measure.
After the V'Ger and Whale Probe incidents you'd have thought there were some super-heavy defensive contingencies to counter any foreign elements that endanger Earth - the key system to the Federation.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
I agree, it seems that Starfleet's presence in the Sol system was at best token. Don't forget that during the Dominion War, a Breen attack Fleet once against broke through whatever defenses Sol had, and struck Earth directly. Although that time, the physical and moral impact of the damage was way out of proportion. And it appeared a signifigant amount of Breen ships were involved, but only a few did actually get a shot at Starfleet HQ, judging by the damage.
Of course, the problem with above is that we don't know if Starfleet was actively attritioning the Breen Fleet as it traversed Federation space, or did the majority of Breen losses occur near or in Sector 001. It would seem likely that it was the former, if Starfleet was only able to scrape up less than two dozen ships for a direct Borg incursion into Sol in the VOY final (feel free to strike this sentence from the record).
We know Earth possess fixed defenses, where were they during all of this? Could a single Borg cube defeat the planetary defense network and shields?
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
That woman who was looking for her son, who Seven channelled that time, I think she was a civilian.
I know, that's an answer. Questions, right. Er. . .
- How many people were in the toilet when their ships were destroyed?
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
i want to know why an oberth was present at the battle. was it a scout? was it picking up escape pods? was starfleet really that desperate for ships?
--jacob
Posted by Mojo (Member # 536) on :
Hmmmm I like this threat a lot!
For obvious reasons, I may not be saying much, but Wolf 359 is probably going to be the coolest part of the book. Already some of your comments have got my wheels turning...
However, I think it's going to be impossible to keep this thread going without naturally wanting to discuss answers and solutions, so I implore Mark to lift the embargo on answers!!
And I'm very glad to hear that an Oberth was there... I just had the model built - complete with Wolf 359 battle damage!
Mojo
Posted by Mojo (Member # 536) on :
According to Mike Okuda, 39 ships were lost out of the 40...
Personally, I subscribe to the 'one ship survived' theory.
Oh wait, this is Jeapordy and it has to be a question right? Hmmm... OK: Isn't it great that personally, I subscribe to the 'one ship survived' theory?
Posted by Commander Dan (Member # 558) on :
In regards to the 40 ships, were these all Federation ships? Did Admiral Hanson not say in The Best of Both Worlds that the Klingons were sending ships as well? (As I recall, he even said that the Feds had considered contacting the Romulans.)
I always wondered what the Klingon’s situation was at Wolf 359. I thought that they would have really been “itchin’” for a good fight, and as a result, would have sent an entire armada!
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
(Mojo, an Oberth can be seen quite clearly in DS9 'Emmissary Pt 1'. When Sisko enters his quarters to save Jake and Jennifer, the back bulkhead is blown away, revealing space. An Oberth flies by, and is struck on its saucer by a weapon and blown to bits)
-What was the civilian population doing during this? When the Cube broke through the Mars perimeter, was their rioting or what?
-What was Mars and the rest of the solar system doing during this? Evacuation perhaps?
-What were the fixed and largely defenseless Starfleet installations doing, like the shipyards?
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Yeah, the next step was going to start up another thread dealing with the answers to said questions. What I wanted to accomplish here was to come up with a "master list" of questions for reference while we're pounding through the answers. I also want to concentrate on ASKING the questions, and to find out new questions to ask; on the Forums here we tend to concentrate on the ubiquitous "Ships at Wolf 359" issue, that other things tend to be pushed out of the way.
So, we'll start up a separate thread in a day or so, which will be headed up by a big list of the questions asked in this thread. So keep asking questions!
Oh, and if anyone wants to ask the "what ships were at Wolf 359" question, I think we'll have to collectively pound on you a little.
More questions:
-This was obviously a really big crisis. What were the rest of the Federation core worlds up to? How would they be reacting to all their defending starships suddenly being pulled away - and then toasted?
-What exactly is the Mars Defence Perimeter? Was it really just those three little ships, or did it incorporate static defences?
-DS9 "The Valiant" mentioned the old starship USS Republic (used as an Academy training ship), which presumably hadn't left the solar system in fifty years (as of 2374). This was presumably an attempt to reconcile Kirk's being a Lieutenant on the Republic while still at the academy. Also, the Republic was presumably an old Constitution (NCC-1371) class ship. In any case, could the old girl have had something to do (or not to do) with Wolf 359?
-Could the Borg cube have encountered other ships, Starfleet or not, along the way to Earth? What about other threat forces, like the Romulans? Or did they transwarp over that territory?
More!
Mark
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
I think there were two Klingon BoPs at Wolf 359. I'll leave it to your imagination to come up with how long they lasted.
Would Starfleet have withheld information about the Borg cube being in Earth's orbit to prevent mass panick?
Does anyone have any idea has to how far away was the cube from Earth when it stopped? Was it in weapons range or not?
Posted by TheF0rce (Member # 533) on :
hmmmmm, most of my questions been asked
oh well...sooooo
How do the borg pilot their ships? By alcove or by panels?
How did Picard help or not help as Locutus in the battle?[We see him observing the ships of his old time freinds getting blown to scrap one by one]
Could the final ramming attempt[if left to proceed] suceed against the borg cube in orbit?
[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: TheF0rce ]
Posted by Mojo (Member # 536) on :
Unless someone can point me to a list of all 40 ships and what their names and regs were, I'm not about to pound anyone who asks "What were the 40 ships?"
I'm new to this and I need to know!
I have to put them all in the book!
Mojo
Posted by Mojo (Member # 536) on :
Did Next Gen ever go into the matter/anti matter explosion suggestions that they did on TOS?
If I remember, that was the meathod of choice for self-destruct.
With the power an explosion like that implied, I have to imagine that would be enough to take out the Borg, as opposed to just ramming them, which I don't think would have done much damage - to the Borg, anyway!
Posted by thoughtcriminal84 (Member # 480) on :
okay, okay...bit of an extension here, but...
why did the "sleep" command Picard and Data threw into the collective cause the Borg vessel to explode? Regen cycles aside, I can't figure that one out.
Why was only one Cube sent in to sector 001 in the first place? I don't care who you are, or how powerful you are, sending one vessal to conquer an area is stupid.
Where were many of the other Trek series core characters at the time of Wolf 359? Some we know, others we don't. Sisko is obvious. where was Harry Kim? (if that example is known, substitute somebody else.)
where were the ships that participated stationed at exactly?
What was the exact strategy of the fed ships when the battle began? As the battle turned against them, what changed? (this goes into "what were their stories", but I'm talking specific things I would like to know in those tragic tales)
Partial answer w/ question to an above query: since the Borg apparently assigned the Federation a very low threat assessment (therefore sending in only one cube) What, if anything, changed in the collective when the cube was destroyed?
Is there some kind of memorial to wolf 359?
how propaganda laden is any taught history of wolf 359?
Is there a special day to commemorate W-359?
How highly was the enterprise crew decorated (if at all) for stopping the cube?
what kind of wreckage was salvaged after the battle? anything?
where exactly is wolf 359 in relation to earth?
Posted by Michael_T (Member # 144) on :
Does anyone remember that in a DS9 episode with Sisko talking to the Federation President where the prez mentioned that a planetary emergency was enacted during the Wolf 359 incident?
I've wondered what Spacedock, Earth Station McKinley, and Utopia Planitia did during the attack... and Jupiter Station... and what ship did survive that battle... and how come I've never seen the orbital habitats and San Francisco Fleet Yards in Earth orbit... and why doesn't the Borg send in more than one cube instead of more like what happend to that planet in Dark Frontier...
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Strange that nobody has asked the most fundamental question about Wolf 359 yet.
Namely, why did the battle take place?
It boggles the mind that the invincible Borg would stop in the middle of nowhere, just because a puny little flock of starships asked it to. Why didn't the Cube simply proceed straight to Earth at warp speed? How does Starfleet force its enemies out of warp, often seemingly without firing a single shot, when in "Time to Stand" we see that the actual job of getting an uncooperative ship to drop down to impulse is a real toughie, requiring a prolonged exchange of fire?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Research?
Posted by StyroFoam Man (Member # 706) on :
It has always been our pet theroy that a starship ramming the Borg Cube at warp speed would have utterly destroyed it. 250,000 tons at 3,000 times the speed of light = (Please note, I pulled those numbers out of my head...)
Prehaps SF had some type of techno-gadget to force the cube out of warp and they set it up at Wolf 359...
Enough answers...
My big question is WHERE was all the orbital traffic? Was the planet in lock-down? Where did Spacedock go?
And lastly: WHY did no one attempt to ram the cube at warp speed? (Aside from the E-D at the end of BOBW...)
Ponder this... Prehaps the Borg are the end-product of Microsoft run amok.... 50% of the time I put my computer into "Sleep" mode and when I attempt to awaken it... it locks up or crashes! (Hmmmm.... Prehaps a closer look at a Borg display would show "GENERAL PROTECTION FAULT, (A)BORT (R)ETRY (I)GNORE (S)ELF-DESTRUCT?") Posted by The Vorlon (Member # 52) on :
I believe that the battle took place only because the Borg wanted it to.
- They weren't afraid of the Federation Fleet - It was a good opertunity to try out some of Picard's inside knowledge -It would eliminate some enemy forces they would have to otherwise face someother time after they assimilated Earth - It would demoralize the enemy - It might reveal important and useful technology that the Borg might utilitize when they got to Earth - Advanced warning of any weapon that SF might try to use against them, give them a chance to adapt before the big showdown at Earth
I could go on....
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
-What did Spacedock do? How powerful is Spacedock really?
-What happened to the Federation and Starfleet command structure on Earth (Command, President, Council Chambers, Medical)?
-Why was this fleet so small? And why was it made up of second-rate ships?
-Are there really 92 Jupiter outposts?
- More of an overall question: Is Starfleet/the Federation really so centered that it DEPENDS on the Sol system (fleetyards, command structure, Spacedock)?
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
Hey Sol, I saw in your link that Wolf359 is a "red dwarf" star.
What the smeg...?
As for a question: What happened to the Klingon ships? Or don't we see any in the battle or the wreckage because they just didn't arrive in time.
After all, Hanson said the Klingons were "sending ships". No one ever knew if they had indeed arrived at the scene.
Posted by Grokca (Member # 722) on :
Why didn't they hit the Borg cube with a genesis device if they were looking for a good weapon?
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
why didnt they just evacuate Earth and have the entire population hide somewhere.. oooh the Borg would have been mad then!
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
A few things.
Thanks a LOT David Templar - frelling spoilers for Endgame - can't you people post adequate space - it just pops up mid sentence grrrrrr.
I'm going to answer a question - or theorise - I'm just GUNNA...
No Klingons + Sector 001 I reckon that the ships used were the only ships in the sector, that none from other Core worlds like Vulcan etc made it in time. (they were probably asked of course). 40 Ships sounds like a good number to be in Sector 001 at the time... and that is battle ready starships - not just transports or whatever. I like the idea of there being a multitude of different types of ships (more realistic than FC, where it was just 4 types of ships + a Soveregin, a Defiant and a Miranda [my theory about that is, that the Sabre, Akira, Norway and Steamrunner were all in sector 001 at the time anyway - being refitted or in mothballs.)
OK sorry about that answers are out of the way...
OK, I want to know what... Rob Legato filmed from the pulled Emissary footage (oh you want a Trek universe question!?!)
Was the most powerful ship there an Excelsior - since Admiral Hansen was commanding the attack from there. (even though there seemed to be nebulas - it seems to be that they were the 'not often seen versions' which might mean they were one-offs, moth-ball ships!?!)
Is Annika Hansen related to Admiral J.B. Hansen?
Was there a starstation/spacestation at Wolf 359!?!
What was the shuttlecraft from the Liberator doing out of the ship? Was it part of an evac, blown out of the exploding ship? or part of a tactic?
Was the Liberator even THERE? Could the shuttlecraft have been on loan or been dropped off for... what ever in the system... or got there under its own... steam?
What were some of the other weapons that Shelby said were being prepared to counter the Borg (the Defiant seemed to be one - I reckon the Sabre was another).
Did any other ships try Geordie's deflector pulse trick?
Did ships that could separate their saucers... separate them before going in?
What about families?
Did the ships and the Borg cube have to move at impulse through the Wolf 359 system as the Enterprise and the Borg did/do in the Terran system? Could this have slowed up other ships that had arrived at the system from attacking together?
Were there any Ambassador class starships there?
Why is it that we've never seen the underside of a Cheyenne?
Did anyone object to Data's cubism portraits in the following weeks and months!?! ;o)
[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: AndrewR ]
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
What did the explosion look like from planetside? Did Jaresh-Inyo (or who/whatever was president at the time ) make a really cool "this is the end of humanity" speech like Tricia O'Neil's president in the B5 "In The Beginning" movie?
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
The Ambassador class USS Yamaguchi NCC-26510 was there.
Questions: What was the point of sending out the Mars Defense Perimeter? How long did the Battle of Wolf 359 last? How exactly does Shelby think the fleet can be back up in a year at the end of BoBW?
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
Oooo, I want to answer these right now. Dang you Mark! Dang you to gosh darned heck!
I will say one and one thing only though, if Earth is a utopia, then there is no oppression. Restriction of information is the worst kind of oppression. Thus, I don't think SF or anybody would've tried to keep the truth from an entire planet, nor could they have.
-Did anybody else concoct some crazy schemes to stop the Cube, with possible destructive results? Perhaps somebody, believing there to be no way to stop the Borg from assimilating Earth, tried to stop nuclear fusion in Sol, thus rendering the whole system useless for the Borg and blowing them up in the process. Some El-Aurian or whatnot could have course stopped 'em with a big "We will survive" speech and the rest is history. A little extreme of an example, but would make for an interesting story
-Were people evacuating on their own? Climbing in anything with a nacelle and trying to get away? Something like the civilian boats evacuating Dunkirk?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
::pictures a fleet of all sorts of civvie ships in orbit around Mars/Luna/Earth trying to get the **** out of 001::
Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
Going back to Mark's comments on the USS Republic, and the possibilities of a Connie being present, there is evidence in the graveyard scene which purportedly shows a gnarled up Constitution-style secondary hull.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Um.. when could we start answering some of these?
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
i agree with CaptainMike, can we answer now? [strained voice] hard to hold back answers and speculation [/strained voice].
--jacob
Posted by Michael_T (Member # 144) on :
I want answers... I want answers...I want answers NOW!!!
If not I'm gonna run around naked here til I get some.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
Sorry about the spoiler Andrew, I thought everyone here has heard the end to Endgame by now.
I think the most powerful ship at 359 was a Nebula, I'm not sure though, haven't seen "Emissary" in quite a while.
Regarding the Borg self-destruction during the 'sleep' command: could it have been intentional on their part? They were aware of the planted command, but by the time they realized it, it was too late to stop it. All they could do was to blow themselves up so Starfleet don't get their hands on the cube.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I'm starting up the "answers" thread right now. Answer there!
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
(Please note, I pulled those numbers out of my head...)![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)