Instead of mucking up the big ol' questions thread, let's start a new one. We've amassed a considerable list of questions about the Battle of Wolf 359 (three pages of 10pt. text!), and have now had time to think about them before answering. Answer them here! And remember, this is NOT A "SHIPS OF WOLF 359" THREAD, DAMMIT!!!
First though, Let's list over the big questions. I've arranged them loosely into several categories for easier flow of thought.
Before the Battle
- How long did Starfleet have to assemble its fleet?
- Why was this fleet so small? And why was it made up of second-rate ships?
- DS9 "The Valiant" mentioned the old starship USS Republic (used as an Academy training ship), which presumably hadn't left the solar system in fifty years (as of 2374). This was presumably an attempt to reconcile Kirk's being a Lieutenant on the Republic while still at the academy. Also, the Republic was presumably an old Constitution (NCC-1371) class ship. In any case, could the old girl have had something to do (or not to do) with Wolf 359?
- Could the Borg cube have encountered other ships, Starfleet or not, along the way to Earth? What about other threat forces, like the Romulans? Or did they transwarp over that territory?
- Why was only one Cube sent in to sector 001 in the first place? I don't care who you are, or how powerful you are, sending one vessel to conquer an area is stupid.
- Where were the ships that participated stationed at exactly?
- Where exactly is wolf 359 in relation to earth?
- Why did the battle take place? It boggles the mind that the invincible Borg would stop in the middle of nowhere, just because a puny little flock of starships asked it to. Why didn't the Cube simply proceed straight to Earth at warp speed? How does Starfleet force its enemies out of warp, often seemingly without firing a single shot, when in "Time to Stand" we see that the actual job of getting an uncooperative ship to drop down to impulse is a real toughie, requiring a prolonged exchange of fire?
During the Fight
- What ships were at Wolf 359, aside from the ones we already know of?
- Who were the captains of the ships there? How many Admirals could have been there? What are their stories?
- Where'd all the escape pods go?
- Were there Starfleet cadets at Wolf 359? What role could the Academy have played?
- Just how long did the battle last?
- Where was the rest of the Fleet when Sisko's USS Saratoga was attacking? Why were only five ships seen in the opening scenes? Did the Saratoga's attack represent the beginning of the battle, or some point later on?
- What tactics did Starfleet try on the cube? Did they attempt anything hi-tech, or go for a traditional brawl of a battle?
- Why was the Excelsior-class starship blown apart within a few seconds, while it took several minutes for the Borg to take apart the Saratoga?
- We know that some people were assimilated during the battle. How many were assimilated? How did the Borg rationalize the number and type of people assimilated? Were civilians assimilated too?
- How did they assimilate people if they were blowing up their ships?
- I want to know why an Oberth was present at the battle. was it a scout? was it picking up escape pods? was Starfleet really that desperate for ships?
- In regards to the 40 ships, were these all Federation ships? Did Admiral Hanson not say in The Best of Both Worlds that the Klingons were sending ships as well? (As I recall, he even said that the Feds had considered contacting the Romulans.)
- How did Picard help or not help as Locutus in the battle?[We see him observing the ships of his old time freinds getting blown to scrap one by one]
- What was the exact strategy of the fed ships when the battle began? As the battle turned against them, what changed? (this goes into "what were their stories", but I'm talking specific things I would like to know in those tragic tales)
- Where were many of the other Trek series core characters at the time of Wolf 359? Some we know, others we don't. Sisko is obvious. Where was Harry Kim? (If that example is known, substitute somebody else.)
- Why didn't they hit the Borg cube with a genesis device if they were looking for a good weapon?
- What was the shuttlecraft from the Liberator doing out of the ship? Was it part of an evac, blown out of the exploding ship? or part of a tactic?
- Did any other ships try Geordi's deflector pulse trick?
- Did ships that could separate their saucers... separate them before going in?
- What about the families?
-Did the ships and the Borg cube have to move at impulse through the Wolf 359 system as the Enterprise and the Borg did/do in the Terran system? Could this have slowed up other ships that had arrived at the system from attacking together?
Elsewhere
- What was going on at Starfleet Command while the cube was coming? How about during the battle?
- Was there any sort of evacuation attempt from Earth? Where was all the civilian traffic?
- Just what kind of defensive structures and protocols does Starfleet have in place to deal with such threats to Earth? And what part did they play, if any, in the Borg attack? The Mars defense perimeter was pretty lame, and 40 starships, most quite old, wasn't much of a counter measure.
- We know Earth possess fixed defenses, where were they during all of this? Could a single Borg cube defeat the planetary defense network and shields?
- What was the civilian population doing during this? When the Cube broke through the Mars perimeter, was there rioting or what?
- What was Mars and the rest of the solar system doing during this? Evacuation perhaps?
- What were the fixed and largely defenseless Starfleet installations doing, like the shipyards?
- This was obviously a really big crisis. What were the rest of the Federation core worlds up to? How would they be reacting to all their defending starships suddenly being pulled away - and then toasted?
- What exactly is the Mars Defence Perimeter? Was it really just those three little ships, or did it incorporate static defenses?
- Would Starfleet have withheld information about the Borg cube being in Earth's orbit to prevent mass panick?
- WHY did no one attempt to ram the cube at warp speed? (Aside from the E-D at the end of BOBW...)
- Was the planet in lock-down?
- What did Spacedock do? How powerful is Spacedock really?
- What happened to the Federation and Starfleet command structure on Earth (Command, President, Council Chambers, Medical)?
Aftermath
- How did they get assimilated crewmembers back to the Delta Quad?
- Why did the "sleep" command Picard and Data threw into the collective cause the Borg vessel to explode? Regen cycles aside, I can't figure that one out.
- What, if anything, changed in the collective when the cube was destroyed?
- Is there some kind of memorial to Wolf 359?
- How propaganda laden is any taught history of Wolf 359?
- Is there a special day to commemorate Wolf 359?
- How highly was the enterprise crew decorated (if at all) for stopping the cube?
- What kind of wreckage was salvaged after the battle? anything?
- What did the explosion look like from planetside? Did Jaresh-Inyo (or who/whatever was president at the time ) make a really cool "this is the end of humanity" speech like Tricia O'Neil's president in the B5 "In The Beginning" movie?
- How exactly does Shelby think the fleet can be back up in a year at the end of BoBW?
Miscellaneous
- Isn't it great that personally, Mojo subscribes to the 'one ship survived' theory?
- Are there really 92 Jupiter outposts?
- More of an overall question: Is Starfleet/the Federation really so centered that it DEPENDS on the Sol system (fleetyards, command structure, Spacedock)?
- Is Annika Hansen related to Admiral J.B. Hansen?
I omitted a few due to overlap and a couple more that were answered already. If I missed any, feel free to pop 'em back in.
Let the discussion begin!
Mark
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:- How long did Starfleet have to assemble its fleet?
That depends on when Starfleet started putting it together. If they started pulling ships in the second they realized they had a Borg cube running around, then they probably had several days. If they waited until the Borg had withstood the Enterprise's deflector-dish attack, I'd say less then a day.
Personally, I favor the first explanation. Starfleet just started gathering some ships in case it was what they feared. I don't think they neccessarily ordered the ships to gather at Wolf 359, or even ordered all forty to group together.
quote: Why was this fleet so small? And why was it made up of second-rate ships?
It makes a great deal of sense that the inner core worlds of the Federation are the best protected. You're not likely to see an Orion pirate operating. The Federation doesn't need their biggest, best attack ships near Earth -- they do need those ships on the frontier, or anywhere a Federation world is in striking distance of a hostile world.
It seems to me the only ships near Earth would mostly be for courier use or whatnot.
quote:Could the Borg cube have encountered other ships, Starfleet or not, along the way to Earth? What about other threat forces, like the Romulans? Or did they transwarp over that territory?
I was under the impression the cube was the same one encountered in Q-Who. IMO, the Borg cube just did some calculations, figured out where the Enterprise came from and set a course at maximum velocity. Perhaps it wasn't close enough to a transwarp corridor at the time, and perhaps the Borg only knew the trajectory, not any other point to pin down the location of the Federation.
Or, the Borg wanted to find out where Rudy Guiliani came from when he surprised them in Florida. They knew he was from up North, somewhere along I-95, but they didn't know WHERE, so they just set off on a road trip until they found him in New York. If that makes any sense whatsoever.
quote:Why was only one Cube sent in to sector 001 in the first place? I don't care who you are, or how powerful you are, sending one vessel to conquer an area is stupid.
Well, the Cube wasn't sent to conquor an area -- just a planet. Earth. If not for the 'sleep' command, it doesn't look like it would've had much trouble doing that, now does it?
And besides, the Borg don't think along the lines of others. Once their cube had adapted to Federation weaponry, it was pretty much invincible. I'm sure those two BoPs gave it some damage, but aside for that ...
quote:Where were the ships that participated stationed at exactly?
We probably will never know. My guess is that at least a few of them were used for courier or supply services.
quote:Where exactly is wolf 359 in relation to earth?
Although I don't know THAT, I do know Wolf 359 is a real star. If anyone would know, Jordan (Quatre Winner) would, I'm sure.
quote:Why did the battle take place? It boggles the mind that the invincible Borg would stop in the middle of nowhere, just because a puny little flock of starships asked it to. Why didn't the Cube simply proceed straight to Earth at warp speed? How does Starfleet force its enemies out of warp, often seemingly without firing a single shot, when in "Time to Stand" we see that the actual job of getting an uncooperative ship to drop down to impulse is a real toughie, requiring a prolonged exchange of fire?
Who knows? Perhaps the Borg thought that by having a human spokesman, the Federation commanders might be willing to listen to their arguement for a surrender. Its not like they were in a real hurry, anyhoo. Perhaps there were enough ships that the Borg wanted to get them out of the way before time came to assimilate Earth (when they might be more vulnerable). Remember, they'd stopped before to carve up a colony and the Lalo (I think that was the name). This wasn't exactly unexpected behavior.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:What ships were at Wolf 359, aside from the ones we already know of?
I don't know -- do you?
quote:Who were the captains of the ships there? How many Admirals could have been there? What are their stories?
I don't know, do you? I doubt there were any, besides Hanson, honestly.
quote:Where'd all the escape pods go?
If they weren't assimilated by the Borg, I'd say they were probably rescued by other Federation ships. Its a wonder that the Enterprise didn't pick any up, but the lifepod crews had probably set a course for the nearest Federation facility by that point, and were out of range for the Enterprise to do anything more then send a message saying "Glad you made it, gotta kill them Borg!"
quote:Were there Starfleet cadets at Wolf 359? What role could the Academy have played?
I would hope not -- but its very possible. I don't think Starfleet scrambled its training ships, but there could've been some cadets doing senior cruises on some of the ships there.
quote:Just how long did the battle last?
Not very long. At least, not long enough for the Enterprise to arrive and participate ... (although Riker and Hanson spoke as if it would be possible for the ship to arrive in the estimated time combat would last).
quote:Where was the rest of the Fleet when Sisko's USS Saratoga was attacking? Why were only five ships seen in the opening scenes? Did the Saratoga's attack represent the beginning of the battle, or some point later on?
I'm guessing the beginning of the battle. Perhaps it was a feint, or Hanson just wanted to see just how well defended the cube really was -- could it really take on five targets at once?
quote:What tactics did Starfleet try on the cube? Did they attempt anything hi-tech, or go for a traditional brawl of a battle?
Uh ... they tried the tactics that would best win!
quote:Why was the Excelsior-class starship blown apart within a few seconds, while it took several minutes for the Borg to take apart the Saratoga?
Perhaps the Borg percieved the ship to be a bigger threat then the Saratoga, and took it out first. It seemed like they just grabbed the Saratoga in a tractor beam until they could finish her off. Maybe they wanted new drones ... ?
quote:We know that some people were assimilated during the battle. How many were assimilated? How did the Borg rationalize the number and type of people assimilated? Were civilians assimilated too?[/quote[
No idea how many were assimilated. Why would the Borg want to rationalize it? Who cares -- new drones! The real question isn't 'were civilians assimilared' ... it's "why the fuck were civilians there in the first place?!"
[quote]How did they assimilate people if they were blowing up their ships?
Grabbed lifepods? They might've sliced parts of the ship away (like in Q-Who) and found people in airtight compartments in the cut sections.
quote:I want to know why an Oberth was present at the battle. was it a scout? was it picking up escape pods? was Starfleet really that desperate for ships?
Yes, Starfleet really was probably that desperate for ships!
quote:In regards to the 40 ships, were these all Federation ships? Did Admiral Hanson not say in The Best of Both Worlds that the Klingons were sending ships as well? (As I recall, he even said that the Feds had considered contacting the Romulans.)
Yes, Hanson said the Klingons were sending ships. Although we never found out on screen, I think we've learned that two Birds of Prey were there. It's also possible a larger fleet from the Empire was enroute, but unable to reach Wolf 359 in time.
quote:How did Picard help or not help as Locutus in the battle?[We see him observing the ships of his old time freinds getting blown to scrap one by one]
Locutus had no friends. He was probably able to tell the Borg the strengths and weakenesses of the various ships.
quote:Where were many of the other Trek series core characters at the time of Wolf 359? Some we know, others we don't. Sisko is obvious. Where was Harry Kim? (If that example is known, substitute somebody else.)
Harry Kim would probably be entering his first year at Starfleet Academy.
quote:Why didn't they hit the Borg cube with a genesis device if they were looking for a good weapon?
Probably because a) they don't build Genesis devices like they're ICBMs, b) the project is probably so classified no one remembers it, and c) how long does it TAKE to build a Genesis device? And d) do you REALLY want to explain the presense of a new planet?
quote:What was the shuttlecraft from the Liberator doing out of the ship? Was it part of an evac, blown out of the exploding ship? or part of a tactic?
Any of the above!
quote:Did any other ships try Geordi's deflector pulse trick?
I don't know ... do you?
quote:Did ships that could separate their saucers... separate them before going in?
One would hope they at least evacuated non-combatants!
quote:What about the families?
Obviously, some ships carried theirs in. Remember Sisko's wife?
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
And answering my own question, it's my belief that the Saratoga was held in a tractor beam for so long because the Borg had selected it as the easier target for assimilation. I think the Borg would have stopped to assimilate samples of people and technology from several ships over the course of the battle, to expand their knowledge of the Federation by gathering pieces of different eras of ships and species.
Between the Excelsior-class ship and the Saratoga, the latter is arguably the weaker ship and probably more efficient to assimilate. So, while Sisko's going through his little drama, perhaps there were drones beaming aboard in Engineering to assimilate people, the computer core, etc. - just like they did in "Q Who?". The cutting beam could have been taking in samples too, as we never again saw the sucer of the ship.
Why was the (Oberth-class) USS Bonestell there? I think that due to her proximity to the Saratoga when we saw her, she could have been coming close to the Saratoga to rescue escape pods or something. We don't know what the armament of an Oberth-class ship is, but it's probably pretty puny (a BoP blew up the USS Grissom without any problems...). Puny enough that pressing one into active combat probably wouldn't make much sense. So, perhaps she was trying to help the Saratoga somehow. Alternatively, the battle could haave become so desperate in those few minuts that the Bonestell ould have been ordered in as a last resort.
So many questions...
Mark
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
So my question about the toilets didn't make the list?
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
i imagine that the fleet put together several days ahead of the battle of wolf 359, and every ship in the area would have been sent. perhaps there were ships being repaired at Utopia Planitia, which would explain the tall ships like the nebulas and the yamaguchi. the others were probably couriers or similar, since the core federation planets aren't near any real threats.
wasn't this the time period where relations with the klingons was at it's best, and klingon ships could be found in federation space? in "a matter of honor" (i believe that is the one where riker becomes the first officer on a BOP in an officer exchange) the bird of prey was in federation space and nobody thought it was unusual (it's been a while since i saw the episode, but i don't think that the ship was there because of a special arrangement done ahead of time). due to this, any number of klingon ships could have been in the area.
i really hope that the Republic was not in the battle. remember, admiral hanson believed that the fleet would defeat the borg, so there is no reason to think they would be desperate enough to send an old relic.
i imagine that several ships firing torpedoes at you would be sufficient to drive you out of warp. as was said, the borg had no reason to hurry and could simply take their time destroying the fleet. another reason as to why the borg decided to play starfleet's game is that it was simply easier to destroy all of the ships in one place than to hunt them all down later.
that's all from me for now.
--jacob
Posted by Michael_T (Member # 144) on :
Well, we don't know who was commanding the majority of the ships at Wolf 359, much else the ships involved. As for where the ships came from, well it's either from the ship stationed to function near the Sol Sector, the ships that are at the fleet yards ans Spacedock, and whoever happend to be available. The lifeboats that were ejected could have headed towards a nearby Federation facility that's not in the Sol Sector. After all, that's where the Borg are going and who would want to meet up with the Borg in an escape pod? Some ASRV's could have been picked up by the cube, if the ship they came from were close enough. As for civilian traffic, I would imagine that it became light by the time the cube was at or near Wolf 359. And the Federation Council would have been removed from the planet along with the president.
Posted by Mojo (Member # 536) on :
I think that Locutous was the reason the cube stopped to engage the fleet.
He was there to facilitate the assimilation of earth, so perhaps he thought that by destroying Starfleet's finest it would demoralize the people and they would put up less resistace.
He hoped to demonstrate that resistance WAS futile.
Mojo
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
"What was the exact strategy of the fed ships when the battle began? As the battle turned against them, what changed? (this goes into "what were their stories", but I'm talking specific things I would like to know in those tragic tales)"
I'm guessing Hansen started with classic battleline tactics, engaging the cube with all 40 ships in close formation or formations. When it became obvious that grouping together just made things easy for the Borg, he broke the Fleet down into smaller action groups in hopes of retaining enough firepower, per group, to make a difference, and at the same time spliting up the Borg's targeting. Eventually, enough ships were destroyed that command and control broke down, and it became every ship for themselves.
"Did any other ships try Geordi's deflector pulse trick?"
It took Geordi quite sometime to prepare that trick, and he had the backing of a GCS's warp core and main deflector dish. I doubt any other ships at Wolf 359, with maybe except for the Nebula, could have imitated what the Enterprise did.
"Did ships that could separate their saucers... separate them before going in?"
I hope not, there weren't any class present that could have separated their saucers there anyways, IIRC. Plus, a ship with a separated saucer usually suffers a major handicap in firepower (all the phasers in the saucer are gone).
"What about the families?"
Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead Dead...
"Did the ships and the Borg cube have to move at impulse through the Wolf 359 system as the Enterprise and the Borg did/do in the Terran system? Could this have slowed up other ships that had arrived at the system from attacking together?"
Anyone actually did the math of how long it'd take to cross Sol at impulse power?
"What was going on at Starfleet Command while the cube was coming? How about during the battle?"
Panicking. Kissing their butts goodbye.
Or.
Panicking. Busy not learning to station more ships in Sol in the future.
Reminds one of the time when those whale-lovers came, doesn't it?
"Was there any sort of evacuation attempt from Earth? Where was all the civilian traffic?"
We didn't get to see that much of Sol, they could very well be simply off camera. As for evacuation... There are something like 10 billion people on Earth...
"Just what kind of defensive structures and protocols does Starfleet have in place to deal with such threats to Earth? And what part did they play, if any, in the Borg attack? The Mars defense perimeter was pretty lame, and 40 starships, most quite old, wasn't much of a counter measure."
Not much, if history has taught us anything. There are suppose to be orbital defense, as shown on some panel somewhere in ST:IV, and planetary defense centers on Earth (DS9, Paradise lost, someone check the script for exact wording). Does the planetary shield covers only populated areas or the entire planet? And we don't know if the Borg was in range of the OWPs either.
And yeah, the MDP is pretty lame. They should have put me in charge of setting up the defenses of Sol.
"We know Earth possess fixed defenses, where were they during all of this? Could a single Borg cube defeat the planetary defense network and shields?"
See above. We would assume that once the Borg assimilated a type of weapon, the quantity which you throw at it becomes meaningless.
"What was the civilian population doing during this? When the Cube broke through the Mars perimeter, was there rioting or what?"
Panicking. Kissing their butts goodbye.
"What was Mars and the rest of the solar system doing during this? Evacuation perhaps?"
I would think that by this time all habitable planets in the Sol system contained so many people that exacuating any meaningful portion of them becomes unthinkable and rediculous.
"What were the fixed and largely defenseless Starfleet installations doing, like the shipyards?"
Waiting their turn to become junction C-385R of Cube 2083753, and so on.
"This was obviously a really big crisis. What were the rest of the Federation core worlds up to? How would they be reacting to all their defending starships suddenly being pulled away - and then toasted?"
I pray to God that those 40 ships were the only ones avaliable to defend Earth and only Earth, not the entire Federation core sectors. That'd just be sick. Maybe the help in three days was ships coming from those other systems, real, bigger, more ships.
"What exactly is the Mars Defence Perimeter? Was it really just those three little ships, or did it incorporate static defenses?"
Only thing mentioned was those robotic attack drones. I think they might have been over-sized missiles, which might have explained why they didn't fire and why they're robotic. The only reason I could think to explain why there were so few of them is that they each pack a huge punch, and/or they're spread out so widely to cover all possible approaches to Earth through Mars's orbit around the sun (remember, Mars is moving, so's Earth, so it'd be pretty stupid if MDP can only cover Earth when the planets are lined up just right) that only a few can respond in time. By the time more had arrived, the Borg had broken past the line of defense.
"Would Starfleet have withheld information about the Borg cube being in Earth's orbit to prevent mass panick?"
"This just in: the Borg has broken past our defenses AND IS COMING RIGHT AT US!!!"
Mass praying ensues, even though Federationites are a bunch of godless commies.
"WHY did no one attempt to ram the cube at warp speed? (Aside from the E-D at the end of BOBW...)"
Why didn't Klingon BoPs ram Jem'Hadar battlecruisers wholesale during the Dominion War? Why didn't the Jem'Hadar attack ships ram every Allied ships larger than itself during the War? I don't think that most rational races regard their ships as expendable projectiles, usually. Expandable, sure, but not to be just going around ramming other ships. It's just the way the crew thinks. They have weapons, they shoot. If they lose weapons, they might ram, but usually by then it's too late, especially with the Borg and their love of tractor beams. Personally, I see most Starfleet captains as the type to turn tail and run, hoping to fight again later. This doesn't work with the Borg.
"What did Spacedock do? How powerful is Spacedock really?"
Pretty damn powerful, one would think and hope.
"What happened to the Federation and Starfleet command structure on Earth (Command, President, Council Chambers, Medical)?"
High-tailed it outta Sol, probably.
"How did they get assimilated crewmembers back to the Delta Quad?"
Doraemon's anywhere door, maybe? Something like the Iconian gateway, but on a smaller scale, perhaps. Or maybe just your typical idiotic VOY writers at work.
"Why did the "sleep" command Picard and Data threw into the collective cause the Borg vessel to explode? Regen cycles aside, I can't figure that one out."
Probably the Borg realized what was going on, but was too late to stop it. So they blew themselves up instead of being captured.
"What, if anything, changed in the collective when the cube was destroyed?"
The Federation became slightly more annoying.
"Is there some kind of memorial to Wolf 359?"
A beacon of some sort, perhaps. Maybe a small station/museum.
"How propaganda laden is any taught history of Wolf 359?"
We never hear anything... But it was probably protrayed as a great victory in the face of total disaster. They sure as hell didn't learn anything from it.
"Is there a special day to commemorate Wolf 359?"
A day to commemorate the most lopsided battle in Starfleet history? Sure, why not? Kids get a day off from school.
"How highly was the enterprise crew decorated (if at all) for stopping the cube?"
They're the flagship of Starfleet. It's expected of them.
"What kind of wreckage was salvaged after the battle? anything?"
Nothing was mentioned about that particular cube. I hope Starfleet didn't go back and salvage the Fleet at Wolf 359 just so they can kitbash the wreckage.
"What did the explosion look like from planetside? Did Jaresh-Inyo (or who/whatever was president at the time ) make a really cool "this is the end of humanity" speech like Tricia O'Neil's president in the B5 "In The Beginning" movie?"
Well, like a second sun or a night time sun, of course, depending on your timezone. Humanity was pretty wide spread by then, so I don't think it would have been the end of humanity as is.
"How exactly does Shelby think the fleet can be back up in a year at the end of BoBW?"
Which Fleet? I don't think, hope she didn't, mean Starfleet. Maybe the Fleet assigned to defend Sector 001.
"Isn't it great that personally, Mojo subscribes to the 'one ship survived' theory?"
Yeah, hooray for Mojo. Not like I can find any of his books here in bloody Canada anyways. Well-stocked Chapters and Indigo my furry yellow electric tailed butt.
"Are there really 92 Jupiter outposts?"
It's a big planet. Here's the real kicker, are all 92 outposts made up of old Ambassaor saucers? How many decommed Ambassador would that have taken?
"More of an overall question: Is Starfleet/the Federation really so centered that it DEPENDS on the Sol system (fleetyards, command structure, Spacedock)?"
Earth is very much the center of the Federation, even on just a symbolic level. Utopia Planetia is probably the most extensive yards of Federation, and would probably be a devistating loss. The orbital facilities around Earth is also numerous and important. There's also a lot of people in Sol.
That took a while.
[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: David Templar ]
Posted by TheF0rce (Member # 533) on :
1.)The three "ships" of the Mars DP look alot like tactical missles[same as the cardy one]to me.
I imagine they would be quite effective at neutralizing enemy fleets attacking Mars.
But Locutus may have pointed out the weakpoints in their shields and therefor the cube killed each one of them with only one shot.
2.)This is also why I think "ramming" the cube would not work. Some blurry moment during the battle, a starfleet ship[heavily dammaged, ala Defiant] may have chosen to ramm the cube. Locutus needn't even have to inform the Borg collective of this imminent threat[many species must have tried it]. So the borg dealt with it like how it has always dealt with it, blow it up before it can impact or hold it off with a tractor beam.
3.)Many of the starships gathered at wolf 359 probably were not the best, but some did seem rather armed for tactical missions. The Saratoga had those two "gun cannons" mounted to her sides. Though they may be actualy sensers, many sites list them as phaser turrets.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:There are something like 10 billion people on Earth...
Can I ask where you got that number ... ?
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
quote:Originally posted by TheF0rce: Though they may be actualy sensers, many sites list them as phaser turrets.
Extra points for being one of the few people to spell "turrets" correctly (there's no "n," folks!)...but loss of said points for "sensers."
Move along.
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
SHIT! Lost my whole fucking post! AAARGH!!
-How long did Starfleet have to assemble its fleet?
Twenty four hours at the most.
-Why was this fleet so small? And why was it made up of second-rate ships?
There were many first rate ships there; At least one Nebula, Ambassadors, Excelsiors, Mirandas, New Orleans, Cheyennes. The others were likely prototypes and other ships hanging around Sol for whatever reason. If you subscribe to the small Starfleet theory, then 40 ships is not an unreasonable number. Perhaps the number of ships wasn't limited by available hulls, but availabe personnel. Flying a starhip is a rather complicated thing to do, and there were probably only so many people who could haul mothballed hulks out there and fight with them.
-DS9 "The Valiant" mentioned the old starship USS Republic (used as an Academy training ship), which presumably hadn't left the solar system in fifty years (as of 2374). This was presumably an attempt to reconcile Kirk's being a Lieutenant on the Republic while still at the academy. Also, the Republic was presumably an old Constitution (NCC-1371) class ship. In any case, could the old girl have had something to do (or not to do) with Wolf 359?
I believe the Republic is the same as Kirk's. If the Taliban armada were to suddenly appear sailing for New York, even if iminent destruction were believed, then I don't think they would haul out the USS Constitution. And as stated above, if there was a limited number of people, they would've gone to more viable ships before they went to the Republic.
-Could the Borg cube have encountered other ships, Starfleet or not, along the way to Earth? What about other threat forces, like the Romulans? Or did they transwarp over that territory?
Possibly. The Borg probably told them to stay out of their way. And they probably agreed.
-Why was only one Cube sent in to sector 001 in the first place? I don't care who you are, or how powerful you are, sending one vessel to conquer an area is stupid.
Simple risk assesment. And they were pretty on the mark, actually. Sending one cube to conquer a quadrant is stupid, but sending the same cube to establish a base and nexus of resources is not so stupid.
-Where were the ships that participated stationed at exactly?
Sector 001 and adjacent. Probably not enough time to get ships from further away.
-Where exactly is wolf 359 in relation to earth?
Pretty close as far as I know. Somebody pull up a real star chart.
-Why did the battle take place? It boggles the mind that the invincible Borg would stop in the middle of nowhere, just because a puny little flock of starships asked it to. Why didn't the Cube simply proceed straight to Earth at warp speed? How does Starfleet force its enemies out of warp, often seemingly without firing a single shot, when in "Time to Stand" we see that the actual job of getting an uncooperative ship to drop down to impulse is a real toughie, requiring a prolonged exchange of fire?
Starfleet got in their way. Warping is still moving in a linear direction. If something blocks your path, you have to move around it. Or some commandos beamed aboard and took out enough of those node things to force it to impulse.
-What ships were at Wolf 359, aside from the ones we already know of?
40. The rest is speculation.
-Who were the captains of the ships there? How many Admirals could have been there? What are their stories?
Again, speculation. An anthology could be written about these brave souls' last hours. Three admirals, maybe? How many admirals are in Starfleet?
-Just how long did the battle last?
Several hours. I picture it as a running battle. Maybe it started at Wolf 359, or the majority of it took place at Wolf 359.
-Where was the rest of the Fleet when Sisko's USS Saratoga was attacking? Why were only five ships seen in the opening scenes? Did the Saratoga's attack represent the beginning of the battle, or some point later on?
Again, running battle. The very first scene of Emmissary implies pretty heavily that it was the beginning of the battle with Locutus' default speech and whatnot.
-What tactics did Starfleet try on the cube? Did they attempt anything hi-tech, or go for a traditional brawl of a battle?
Again, Emmissary shows the standard; phasers, torpedoes, evasive action, repeat. Maybe a couple of cunning souls tried some aces up their sleeves, but mostly it was traditional brawl. Maybe a couple ram attempts.
-Why was the Excelsior-class starship blown apart within a few seconds, while it took several minutes for the Borg to take apart the Saratoga?
Because the Excelsior was a higher threat. The Borg could only expend only so much energy at one time. While taking care of the higher threat, it holds the Saratoga w/ a tractor beam and some spare energy until it could blow up the ship properly. Or it be they wanted to assimilate people, information, and equipment from a ship that would require less effort to do so.
-We know that some people were assimilated during the battle. How many were assimilated? How did the Borg rationalize the number and type of people assimilated? Were civilians assimilated too?
A few dozen? A hundred? Oppurtunity. A ship in a tractor beam or a listing, barely living hulk offers the oppurtunity. Why not exploit it?
-How did they assimilate people if they were blowing up their ships?
Answered.
-I want to know why an Oberth was present at the battle. was it a scout? was it picking up escape pods? was Starfleet really that desperate for ships?
Two phasers are better than one.
-In regards to the 40 ships, were these all Federation ships? Did Admiral Hanson not say in The Best of Both Worlds that the Klingons were sending ships as well? (As I recall, he even said that the Feds had considered contacting the Romulans.)
I consider the 40 number all Feds. Maybe there were like 7 Klingon ships? For a magic total number.
-How did Picard help or not help as Locutus in the battle?[We see him observing the ships of his old time freinds getting blown to scrap one by one]
Knowledge is power.
-What was the exact strategy of the fed ships when the battle began? As the battle turned against them, what changed? (this goes into "what were their stories", but I'm talking specific things I would like to know in those tragic tales)
Phasers, torpedoes, evasive, repeat. Throw in a remodulation to mix things up a bit. Again, an anthology on the specifics.
-Where were many of the other Trek series core characters at the time of Wolf 359? Some we know, others we don't. Sisko is obvious. Where was Harry Kim? (If that example is known, substitute somebody else.)
More specific speculation. Kim would've been in the Academy right? He was most likely sucking his thumb kissing his ass goodbye.
-Why didn't they hit the Borg cube with a genesis device if they were looking for a good weapon?
Because the only one ever built was detonated 80 years before?
-What was the shuttlecraft from the Liberator doing out of the ship? Was it part of an evac, blown out of the exploding ship? or part of a tactic?
Evacuation probably. Or simply blown away from an explosive decompression.
-Did any other ships try Geordi's deflector pulse trick?
Very few other ships had the power to do it. And if they did, it sure as hell didn't work. If they even knew about it, which I doubt.
-Did ships that could separate their saucers... separate them before going in?
I've tried this in Armada II, with mixed results. Since there were no other Galaxies, no ship could probably reintegrate. Even the proto-Neb, if it could seperate, probably couldn't reintegrate. So they probably stayed together. For the kids.
-What about the families?
Tragic. Maybe a few were evacuated. Jennifer and Jake weren't though.
-Did the ships and the Borg cube have to move at impulse through the Wolf 359 system as the Enterprise and the Borg did/do in the Terran system? Could this have slowed up other ships that had arrived at the system from attacking together?
Slowing to impulse is most likely done for the simple reason of not overshooting your target. You don't do 60 right up to you're garage door.
-What was going on at Starfleet Command while the cube was coming? How about during the battle?
Kissing their asses goodbye.
-Was there any sort of evacuation attempt from Earth? Where was all the civilian traffic?
Sure. I'd run. We just didn't see it.
-Just what kind of defensive structures and protocols does Starfleet have in place to deal with such threats to Earth? And what part did they play, if any, in the Borg attack? The Mars defense perimeter was pretty lame, and 40 starships, most quite old, wasn't much of a counter measure.
40 ships is pretty impressive. Isn't it the most we've ever heard or seen assembled in one location? And don't diss Mars! Remember whatever we saw, was probably just a small slice of what really happened. Or it picked the weakest approach vector. Path of least resistance.
-We know Earth possess fixed defenses, where were they during all of this? Could a single Borg cube defeat the planetary defense network and shields?
On Earth? Apparently.
-What was the civilian population doing during this? When the Cube broke through the Mars perimeter, was there rioting or what?
Kissing their asses goodbye. 24th century humans are enlightened, I'd like to think they were dealing with it in a more rational way.
-What was Mars and the rest of the solar system doing during this? Evacuation perhaps?
This is my question isn't it? I think evacuation.
-What were the fixed and largely defenseless Starfleet installations doing, like the shipyards?
Kissing their asses goodbye.
-This was obviously a really big crisis. What were the rest of the Federation core worlds up to? How would they be reacting to all their defending starships suddenly being pulled away - and then toasted?
Kissing their asses goodbye.
-What exactly is the Mars Defence Perimeter? Was it really just those three little ships, or did it incorporate static defenses?
Mars Defense Perimeter. Remember, we likely only saw a sliver of the actual action. The Mars Defense Perimeter was most likely more substantial.
-Would Starfleet have withheld information about the Borg cube being in Earth's orbit to prevent mass panick?
No. Earth is a Utopia. Witholding of information is the worst form of oppression. Starfleet/Federation doesn't intentionally keep people from knowing they are about to die.
-WHY did no one attempt to ram the cube at warp speed? (Aside from the E-D at the end of BOBW...)
They did. They failed, like the E-D.
-Was the planet in lock-down?
No, they'd let people run. They probably knew the El-Aurians situation by that time and considered that worst case scenario.
-What did Spacedock do? How powerful is Spacedock really?
Kiss its ass goodbye? Not powerful enough to fend off a cube.
-What happened to the Federation and Starfleet command structure on Earth (Command, President, Council Chambers, Medical)?
They were kissing their asses goodbye.
-How did they get assimilated crewmembers back to the Delta Quad?
The Shatner Transwarp Deluxe Transporter
-Why did the "sleep" command Picard and Data threw into the collective cause the Borg vessel to explode? Regen cycles aside, I can't figure that one out.
What are Regen cycles? A feedback loop. The Borg didn't know what hit them. But they adapted for the next time. The Borg most likely go by the "fool me once..." philosophy. There are only so many tricks out there.
-What, if anything, changed in the collective when the cube was destroyed?
Not much. The Collective is vast. The Feds still weren't probably assigned a very high threat rating. Who knows why they did the second incursion the way they did.
-Is there some kind of memorial to Wolf 359?
Absolutely. Bigger than Pearl Harbor, bigger than the future WTC memorial, bigger than anything ever done before. Mojo - a great idea for Unseen Frontier. I'm sure you've already thought of it.
-How propaganda laden is any taught history of Wolf 359?
I would hope that a scientific utopia could maintain some semblence of objectivity. But what sort of propoganda would you need to spin it in to some sort of tragic event? It's pretty fucking tragic as is.
-Is there a special day to commemorate Wolf 359?
I would hope so.
-How highly was the enterprise crew decorated (if at all) for stopping the cube?
Federal Medals of Honor? What was the nature of the E-nil's decorations for their multiple Earth-saves?
-What kind of wreckage was salvaged after the battle? anything?
I would think it would be analagous to the retrieval of debris from Ground Zero. Memorial pieces, and little else.
-What did the explosion look like from planetside? Did Jaresh-Inyo (or who/whatever was president at the time ) make a really cool "this is the end of humanity" speech like Tricia O'Neil's president in the B5 "In The Beginning" movie?
Like the destruction of the mothership from ID4. I think he/she/it more likely made a Morgan Freeman "Life will go on" speech from Deep Impact.
-How exactly does Shelby think the fleet can be back up in a year at the end of BoBW?
The defense fleet. The homefleet stationed in and around Sector 001. Considering some of these were failed but still flyable prototypes, they wouldn't have any real bearing on the deployed fleet anyway.
-Isn't it great that personally, Mojo subscribes to the 'one ship survived' theory?
Absolutely fucking awesome. You rock, Mojo!
-Are there really 92 Jupiter outposts?
No. There's no evidence that outposts/stations are numbered sequentially. And its not as crazy as it sounds for that not to be the case. Happens all the time in real life.
-More of an overall question: Is Starfleet/the Federation really so centered that it DEPENDS on the Sol system (fleetyards, command structure, Spacedock)?
If the east coast fell, we'd be fucked. Even with LA, SF, PH, and the whole west coast and everything else stationed around the world, we'd be done. Take out the absolute center, the absolute capital of any organization, and it falls.
-Is Annika Hansen related to Admiral J.B. Hansen?
Could be. Maybe not. Who cares? A pretty cheap tie in regardless.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Why did the cube fly by Mars anyway? What are the chances that at that exact point, Saturn, Mars and Earth were on a direct line with each other?
"40 ships is pretty impressive. Isn't it the most we've ever heard or seen assembled in one location?"
No. 150+ ships at the end of "Call To Arms" (some Klingon, admitadley. And I can't remember where I heard this figure from. Was that the amount actually shown on-screen?)
And there was 600-odd Federation-only ships in "Sacrifice of Angels", and probably similar numbers on "What you Leave Behind".
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Enter Captain Mike with his encyclopedic knowledge of the non-canon.
quote:--What kind of wreckage was salvaged after the battle? anything? -- Is there some kind of memorial to Wolf 359?
The TNG comic storyline "The Worst of Both Worlds" by Michael Jan Friedman depicted Wolf 359's battle site as being a large debris field left as a memorial orbiting the star (lots of nacelles floating around!)
quote:- How did they get assimilated crewmembers back to the Delta Quad?
The novel 'The Return' was written by Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens (under the pen-name 'William Shatner') depicting that Borg ships use transwarp tunneling escape transporters that deposit undamaged drones and components at depot dumps on far-off planets. When Kirk was reanimated and assimilated, and about to die, he found himself whisked to a dump world that had been liberated by the virus which created Hugh, and the Freed Borg helped him overcome his terminal nanites. Presumably this is how the queen escaped the BoBW cube to be in 'First Contact' and then escaped again to be in Voyager.
quote:-- Where'd all the escape pods go?
Well Mojo's book will reveal that ;-) . A Voyager comic published by Marvel depicted several escape pods hat linked together and then became trapped in a temporal vortex that deposited them in the Delta Quadrant several years later. They were supposedly drawn by temporal gravitation, back to the time they originated in (along with a Voyager engineer who was along for the ride in one of the pods) This raises a question if they reappeared years later, or back at the battle site to be picked up in the later timeframe (with a VGR crewman!??).
quote:-- DS9 "The Valiant" mentioned the old starship USS Republic (used as an Academy training ship), which presumably hadn't left the solar system in fifty years (as of 2374). This was presumably an attempt to reconcile Kirk's being a Lieutenant on the Republic while still at the academy. Also, the Republic was presumably an old Constitution (NCC-1371) class ship. In any case, could the old girl have had something to do (or not to do) with Wolf 359?
Kirk was a cadet ensign on the Republic, not a lieutenant. And being an officer while at the academy has been explained. Its just how Starfleet does it. (presumably Kirk [and Saavik] were in post graduate [and therefore post-commission] command school). The Republic as being a 100 year old training vessel is a mess. Never mention it again. And the unmentionable training ship could just have easily been docked immobile around Venus or Pluto or any other place out of the Borg line of entry. And out of commission because its warp core was being worked on. Or its bridge module being swapped. Or its warp nacelles being fumigated. Like i said, its a mess. Dont speak of the Rep.. of that ship.
quote:-- Where exactly is wolf 359 in relation to earth?
This extremely faint star is the third closest to Sol after Alpha Centauri 3 and Barnard's Star. It is located only about 7.8 light-years away in the east central part (10:56:29+07:00.7, ICRS 2000.0) of Constellation Leo, the Lion -- south of Chertan or Coxa (Theta Leonis). However, the star is much too dim to be visible to the naked eye. It was discovered photographically by Max (Maximilian Franz Joseph Cornelius) Wolf (1863-1932), a pioneer of astrophotography who discovered hundreds of variable stars and asteroids, and about 5,000 nebulae by analyzing photographic plates and developing the "dry plate" in 1880 and the "blink comparator" in 1900 with the Carl Zeiss optics company in Jena, Germany. A very cool, main sequence red dwarf (M5.8Ve), Wolf 359 is our Sun's dimmest stellar neighbor within 10 ly, with only 1/63,000th of Sol's luminosity. If our Sun, Sol, were replaced by Wolf 359, then an observer on Earth would need a telescope to see its round shape clearly, and daylight would be very dim with only ten times the brightness of full moonlight with Sol. On the other hand, Wolf 359 is a Flare Star (that has been designated with the variable star name CN Leonis) and so can brighten dramatically from time to time. Flares on Wolf 359, however, are rarer and not as violent as those observed on Proxima Centauri, Kruger 60 B, or UV Ceti. The star has a mass between 10 and 20 percent of Sol's with about 10 percent of Sol's diameter, which is roughly the size of Jupiter. It may be less than 10 billion years old. The distance from the star where an Earth-type planet would be comfortable with liquid water is about 0.005 AU, but at that distance, the rotation of the planet would be tidally locked with the star so that one side would have eternal daylight and the other would be in eternal darkness. Some alternative names and useful star catalogue numbers are: CN Leonis, Gl 406, G 45-20, LFT 750, LTT 12923, and LHS 36. The Hubble Space Telescope was recently used to search for faint companions about Wolf 359. No large orbiting body (stellar or substellar, such as a brown dwarf) were found as close as the distance from the Earth to the Sun -- i.e., one AU -- from Wolf 359. Previous searches using ground-based, photographic astrometry and infrared speckle methods had already failed to find a large orbiting body at greater distances from the star. The following star systems are located within 10 ly of Wolf 359.
Star System, Spectra & Luminosity, Distance in LY Ross 128 M4.1-5 Ve 3.8 Lalande 21185 M2.1 Ve 4.1 Wolf 424 AB M5.5 Ve M5.5 Ve 7.3 DX Cancri M6.5Ve 7.7 LP 731-58 M6.5V 7.7 Sol G2 V 7.8 Proxima Centauri M5.5 Ve 8.2 Alpha Centauri AB G2 V K0-1 V 8.3 Procyon 2 F5 V-IV DA-F/VII 8.6 LTT 12352 M3.5 V 8.7 AD Leonis M3 Ve 8.8 Sirius AB A0-1 Vm DA2-5/VII 9.0 Luyten's Star M3.5-5 V 9.8 DENIS 1048-39 M9 V? ~10
quote:-- How exactly does Shelby think the fleet can be back up in a year at the end of BoBW?
Probably they were going to build 39 new ships, and one year was the time estimated to do it. What, ask a stupid question....
quote:-- What, if anything, changed in the collective when the cube was destroyed?
Well, imagine the collective as equalling [i]x[/i. Then let x = x-1.
[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: CaptainMike ]
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
-On a sad day with the flu, I counted the number of ships at the end of "Call to Arms" at 97.
-It's Annika HANSEN and Admiral HANSON. No relation.
-The odds of Saturn, Jupiter, Mars and Earth being in a straight line are not astronomical, but not too likely. However, they don't have to be in a straight line out from the sun in order to make sense, which increases the chances. If you subscribe to the notion that "Jupiter Outpost 92" was not in orbit of Jupiter, but somewhere in the orbital shell, that makes it even more likely. However, all of this is not taking into account whether or not each planet would be in the same orbital plane, which they rarely are.
-Re: The Good Ship Republic. Assuming she hadn't left the Terran system in 50 years (according to Cadet Collins), and as they were talking about the ship in the present tense (as in "still in service with the Academy") then it certainly wasn't at Wolf 359. My question was referring to where she *was*, and what she was doing while the cube was hovering over Earth. Perhaps if she was still warp-capable, she would be in the charge of mixed non-Fleet ships leaving the system, which didn't last very long before the Enterprise did her sleepy thang. Or perhaps she was hanging in orbit around one of the planets, Starfleet Command having realized that one outdated ship probably couldn't halep any more than 40 more current ones...
[Edit: Captain Mike doesn't like talking about the Republic. I do, and I think it could very well be that same ship Kirk served on. So there. Nyahhh... ]
-If you were the Sol system and were facing to the galactic core, if you raised your right arm and pointed it about 45 degrees up and slightly back of your body, you'd be pointing at Wolf 359 - 7.6 light years away. Now, this means that the cube was not necessarily travelling directly in from the Delta Quadrant, especially if you put New Providence Colony on a straight line with Sol and Wolf 359. What this probably means is that the cube was travelling in from some point "above" the plane of the eliptic, which is definitely not a straight line if you were coming in from the DQ. This in turn suggests that it popped out of a transwarp conduit somewhere "up" there and bee-lined for Earth.
Mark
[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Nguyen ]
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I think Mojo asked what all the starship names were that were at Wolf 359... someone has a list of them don't they?
U.S.S. Awanahee SP? -- Cheyenne Class U.S.S. Melbourne -- Excelsior Class U.S.S. Saratoga -- Miranda Class Variant III U.S.S. Bonestell -- Oberth Class U.S.S. Kyushu -- New Orleans Class
someone knows/has the list.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
As far as assimilation of Starfleet personnel and their return to the Delta Quadrant, it would seem to make sense that the Borg would have assimilated some of the Wolf 359 survivors to replace battle losses. This would have most logically occurred after the Federation starships had been neutralized.
The idea that the Borg would have incurred losses is consistent with the battle seen in _First Contact_ . . . the Borg ship was damaged, despite the ability to adapt.
(Of course, I still like the original movie script element that there were three cubes, and that there was a running battle all versus Starfleet all the way to Earth.)
As Picard revealed in First Contact, the Queen was at Wolf 359. She escaped the cube's destruction, probably in an escape sphere.
As shown in "Endgame", there is a transwarp conduit aperture less than a light-year from Earth.
One might therefore assume that the Queen and some drones (at least a few of which would have been assimilated at Wolf 359) escaped in a sphere, reached that transwarp aperture, and returned to the Delta Quadrant.
And, bingo, you have an explanation as to how the Queen escaped, and how there were Wolf 359 drones in the Delta Quadrant.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
The Queen could also have escaped by FTPing herself to a safe location and letting the physical body behind, to perish along with the Cube. We learned in Voyager that the Queen can easily swap bodies, and that she's none the worse for wear after having been killed by Picard in "FC".
And "Endgame" even proved that the Alice Krige-shaped body used in "FC" and (according to "FC" flashbacks) in the "Best of Both Worlds" assault could be *reproduced* in detail. The Queen doesn't simply jump from body to body, she actually gets them *built*, tailored to her requirements. Or then the races represented by Alice Krige and Susanna Thompson have no individual variation, so an assimilated body from those species would always have the same facial features. But that doesn't sound as likely as the "tailoring" theory.
So it's possible and even probable that the Krige-model body was destroyed in "BoBW", then rebuilt for "FC", again destroyed, rebuilt in the likeness of Thompson, potentially destroyed in "Dark Frontier", potentially rebuilt in the Thompson format, apparently destroyed after "Unimatrix Zero", and rebuilt in the Krige format...
Transwarp conduits are somewhat temporary constructs, it seems. Still, there could have been one close to Earth even back in the days of "BoBW", and some assimilated samples from the Wolf 359 fleet could have been sent to a safe location through that gateway. It seems likely, though, that the Queen would have stayed with the big Cube until the very end. And unlike "FC", it doesn't appear that the entire vicinity was blinded by the debris and flash of the explosion, so an escaping Sphere would probably have been observed. Not necessarily, though - the Queen could have escaped in this "traditional" manner, too.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
They would have noticed a sphere though.. i think the transporter makes more sense actually, a credit to Shatner's ghostwriters.
Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with the Republic being Constitution-class and being 150 years old. I think that's beautiful, if wishful thinking (and therefore unlikely). But the whole Constitution issue is muddied by this situation, the mention of there being only one in 'Relics' thats in a museum,not at the Academy, and the question of how useful a Constitution-class ship would be to train 2300s cadets.
Bernd's page has the most complete analysis -- Wolf 359 Research Project -- Ambassador-class USS Yamaguchi NCC-26510 (seen in Emissary) Apollo-class USS Gage NCC-11672 (not seen, mentioned, class name devised by Okuda) Challenger-class USS Buran NCC-57580 (kitbash model from BoBW) Cheyenne-class USS Ahwahnee NCC-73260 (kitbash model from BoBW) Excelsior-class USS Melbourne NCC-62043 (seen in Emissary) Excelsior-class USS Roosevelt NCC-2573 - (VGR -Unity, mentioned only [unless you count the stock footage of the Melbourne being destroyed as an appearance]) Freedom-class USS Firebrand NCC-68723 (kitbash seen in BoBW) Miranda-class USS Saratoga NCC-31911 (seen in Emissary) Nebula-class USS Bellerophon NCC-62048 (seen in Emissary) New Orleans-class USS Kyushu NCC-65491 (kitbash from BoBW field) Niagara-class USS Princeton NCC-59804 (kitbash from BoBW field) Oberth-class USS Bonestell NCC-31600 (seen in Emissary) Rigel-class USS Tolstoy NCC-62095 (mentioned and not seen, class name devised by Okuda) Springfield-class USS Chekov NCC-57302 (kitbash from BoBW) (Unknown class) USS Liberator NCC-67016 - (This ship lost a shuttle that was seen in BoBW scrap) Constitution hull -- (1701 refit from ST:III seen before BoBW commercial break. This could have been a Constitution or a variant of the Constitution design that had the same secondary hull) Proto-Nebula -- (Nebula study model seen in BoBW) Excelsior study 1 -- (study model seen in BoBW) Excelsior study 2 -- (study model seen in BoBW) 4 Nacelle Excelsior study -- (study model seen in BoBW) Phase 2 study 1 -- (study model possibly seen in BoBW) Phase 2 study 2 -- (study model possibly seen in BoBW)
Shatner's novel adds the Miranda-class USS Hoagland.
Thats 23 ships..
[OH.. i should point out that the two class-names that werent seen could refer to one of the ships we dont know the name of.. for example, the Apollo-class could be one of the phase2 protos and the Rigel-class could be one of the nx2000 protos. That would cut this list down to 21 (or 20 if you disregard shatner)]
[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: CaptainMike ]
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Well, I think the dialogue in "Relics" went something like this:
Picard: Constitution-class.
Scotty: Aye, you're familiar with 'em?
Picard: There's one in the Fleet museum.
It *does* imply that the one in the fleet museum is the only one left. However, if we were to mince words, the one in the museum could have been a non-refitted version of the Connie, and the Republic could have been a refitted edition. This would make more sense than to train cadets on a truly outdated configuration of starship, and would serve to make Picard's reminiscence more poignant, as he was standing on a non-refit bridge. Further circumstantial evidence could have included Sisko & crew's sense of wonder as they were walking around the E-nil in "Trials and Tribble-ations", since the odds are some of them may have trained aboard the Republic. Ditto if they kept around the Enterprise bridge simulator from ST2.
And of course, it could simply mean that the Republic was NOT a Constitution-class ship. The class has never been explicitly mentioned in any show, after all, and was only established in the Encyclopedia and the Franz Joseph manual. Following Occam's Razor though, it probably was, lending to the credence of the "Republic = E-Refit" theory above.
But bringing this back to Wolf 359, neither the Republic or the museum ship would have been there, as Collins spoke of the Republic in the present tense and Picard spoke of the museum ship the same way - both after the battle. Since screen evidence strongly suggests that a Constitution class was at Wolf 359, unless that ship was a mothballed or reserve ship, there exists a possibility that a refit Connie or two may have been in service with Starfleet at the time - even more evidence in favour of the Republic.
Mark
[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Nguyen ]
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
The US Navy has the sailing ship "Old Iron Sides" better known as the USS Constitution.
Starfleet probably uses the same principle with the USS Republic.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:The idea that the Borg would have incurred losses is consistent with the battle seen in _First Contact_ . . . the Borg ship was damaged, despite the ability to adapt.
Keep in mind that the First Contact battle was the first encounter the Borg had with quantum torpedoes. This could quite easily have caused much of the damage seen, and thus, isn't a 'mirror' of the Wolf 359 battle.
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
it was also the first battle the borg had with Defiant type pulse phaser cannons. there could have been more Defiant class ships fighting in the running battle then just the Defiant herself.
--jacob
[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: EdipisReks ]
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Yes, but, er, most of the ships were equipped with quantum torpedoes. That strikes me as the reason for the Borg's damage, not a faster firing phaser (it can be argued that the only reason the pulse phaser did ANY damage to the Borg was because of the havoc the quantum torpedoes caused).
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Uh... In "First Contact" the ONLY ship seen to fire quantum torpedoes is the Enterprise. The Defiant only used phasers, and the rest of the ships used phasers and regular ol' photon torpedoes. And then in "Insurrection" we're given only normal photons from everyone...
God, I hope we see quantums again in "Nemesis"...
Mark
Posted by Mojo (Member # 536) on :
As far as Wolf 359 ships go...
There has to have been at least ONE Galaxy Class ship there...
And since I subscribe to the theory that the USS ENDEAVOUR, a NEbula Class ship, was there, has there ever been a reg number for it?
Mojo
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Yuppers. NCC-71805 is the reg number for the Endeavour.
As for a Galaxy class ship, at least one Trek novelist has posited that one of them was lost there (Peter David, in "Vendetta"). No name or registration number was given for that.
Given how many Galaxies we see later, I personally have no real trouble with having one destroyed there, though if you DO have one there the reg number and/or name should be visible, or else everyone's gonna be confusing her with the Enterprise...
Mark
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Well, considering that the USS Galaxy wasn't involved (we saw it later on), nor the Yamato (already destroyed), nor the Enterprise-D, only the three galaxies launched as part of the initial 6-ship order could possibly have been ready. And that's an absolute upper limit. One of those three would have had to been the Odyssey, which like the Galaxy couldn't have been involved. So, that means two Galaxy-class ships out of the whole Federation fleet could potentially have been included in Hanson's armada. Now, unless they were still being outfitted post-construction in orbit of Earth or Mars, sheer statistics seems to imply that its highly unlikely that one of the forty ships was a Galaxy.
[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: The_Tom ]
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
to my mind there is no way that one of the forty was a Galaxy class vessel. i think that they would have mentioned it in the episode if there was one: "my god, our sister ship the USS SOANDSO. all those families.". this was still back when there were few federation ships shown on the screen, and the Galaxy class always had a big deal made about it. also, considering that the Galaxy class is meant to operate on the rim of the federation and beyond, i seriously doubt that one would have been present so close to Sol (there is no indication that any Galaxy class except for the Enterprise ever had to abandon exploration in order to shuttle ambassadors around and keep the klingon empire from falling apart).
about the Defiant's phasers, somethinng tells me that there is more to them than just fast firing. was it the DS9 Tech Manual or Star Trek: the Magazine that talked about the phasers blasts being different layers, each with a different frequency? also, as was mentioned, only the Big-E was seen firing quantums.
--jacob
[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: EdipisReks ]
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
Hmmm... USS Endeavour: NCC-71805 USS Yamato: NCC-71807 (This is not meant to stir up the Yamato registry debate again)
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Not on this thread you don't, if you don't wanna get pounded on a little bit.
Let's talk about Earth. While the cube was in orbit, would you imagine people rioting and panicking in the streets? Rushing to grab every phaser, tommy gun or pointed stick available? Rushing to hop aboard every available ship?
I imagine a combination of everything. I dunno if the Federation council would try to evacuate, though...
Mark
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
By the way, would someone watch 'Court-Martial' for once before opening their mouths? While I am of course not 100% sure because I dont have the ep right now, I'm pretty sure Kirk says '.. the Republic' and the computer interrupts 'clarify term 'republic'' and then Kirk says 'U.S.S. Republic, Constitution-class, NCC-1371' This is why we know its class and registry, which is not at all uncertain because he explicitly stated it.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
Must... not... get into debate... about likelyhood of... many GCS...
Really though, with could billion people on Earth, you wouldn't know where to begin if you tried to evacuate. Just the women and children would be overwhelming.
I continue to support the theory that during the Borg incursion, there was a lot of "kissing your butt goodbye", and I believe this is one of those cases.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Known Galaxy-Class ships in supposed order of construction:
All exept the Yamato are known to have been around after Wolf-359, so it can't be any of these.
I'm not against one being at Wolf-359, but...why exactly does there have to be one?
I guess if it was a hull that was rushed out of Utopia Planitia with only the secondary hull finished, then you should have an easier time distinguishing it from the E-D...and if it is to be destroyed, it would negate the need for yet another new name, assuming you belive that most ships aren't named until they are completed.
[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: Reverend ]
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Ooh! Ooh! Remember that the New Providence colony was scooped up, presumably with all 900 of its inhabitants. Seeing as how the Borg didn't just outright destroy the place, we can probably assume that there could be up to 900 new drones on that cube! Where were they? What would happen to the site of New providence colony after "BoBW"?
Mark
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Again with the Trinculo nonsense. Certainly never been onscreen, considering the GCS physical model hasn't been used since appearing as the Venture. And the CGI model was blank until appearing as the Galaxy in Tears of the Prophets and then as the Challenger in Timeless.
It's been suggested that the 6 "extra" hulls alluded to in the TNGTM would have had lower registries than the Yamato because they were shipped out partially finished to the fleet lockbox orbiting Gore VII before Yamato was commissioned, and that the Challenger therefore belonged to this crew. Of course, this ultimately descends into a registry numbers are sequential according to batch/order/construction-start/commisioning debate, so let's steer clear. In any case, I think its generally-accepted that the Odyssey was one of the original six. The Venture could have been. So, again, there's a very slim chance of a Galaxy being at W359.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
CaptainMike's comment about the Republic sounds good - except for the fact that minor wars have been fought on the issue of whether the words "Constitution class" were ever uttered in TOS, and the side saying "yes" has always left the battlefield bloodied and beaten.
I'm sure that "Court Martial" does give the registry of the ship (either as NCC-1371 or as just 1371), but I'm also pretty sure the class of the ship is NOT mentioned there. Otherwise, the bodies of the "naysayers" would cover the battlefield in the said wars.
Timo Saloniemi
[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Timo ]
Posted by Mojo (Member # 536) on :
Thanks for all the input and reg numbers, guys! I'll have to give you all credit under "Research" in the book!
Since I have a model of a Galaxy Class starship still under construction (from "Relativity"), I'm going to say that's the ship that was at Wolf 359. I believe they emptied anything that could fly out of Utopia Planitia, and I'm in love with the image of a not-quite-finished Galaxy Class ship, with panels missing and no reg painted yet, heading off to battle.
I don't believe there would have been mass panic on Earth. After the fleet was decimated, I think people would have been in shock, quietly preparing for the end. Something like the church scene in "War of the Worlds."
They know there is physically nothing they can do to stop it... the only thing left is prayer and saying goodbye to one another.
Mojo
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mojo: I don't believe there would have been mass panic on Earth. After the fleet was decimated, I think people would have been in shock, quietly preparing for the end. Something like the church scene in "War of the Worlds." They know there is physically nothing they can do to stop it... the only thing left is prayer and saying goodbye to one another.
I have a hard time seeing x.y billion people (where x>=8) simply laying down & saying, "Oh, well, Percy...looks like this might be the end. Say, would you hand me the kettle? I wish to have tea & meet the end as a British man." I see them being more like humanity versus the Minbari in "In The Beginning"--knowing they'll die but making them pay for every inch. Then you get people like me who'd be going around having as much sex as possible using the line of "Hey...you might survive..& then you'd need to repopulate the species, wouldn't you?"
quote:Originally posted by Mojo: Thanks for all the input and reg numbers, guys! I'll have to give you all credit under "Research" in the book!
great! My second piece of street cred! Woo!
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
quote:I'm sure that "Court Martial" does give the registry of the ship (either as NCC-1371 or as just 1371), but I'm also pretty sure the class of the ship is NOT mentioned there. Otherwise, the bodies of the "naysayers" would cover the battlefield in the said wars.
From the episode:
Computer: "Ship...nomenclature...specify."
Kirk: "United Starship Republic...number 1371."
No mention of either class or NCC. Awaiting incoming salvo. Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shik:
I have a hard time seeing x.y billion people (where x>=8) simply laying down & saying, "Oh, well, Percy...looks like this might be the end. Say, would you hand me the kettle? I wish to have tea & meet the end as a British man." I see them being more like humanity versus the Minbari in "In The Beginning"--knowing they'll die but making them pay for every inch. Then you get people like me who'd be going around having as much sex as possible using the line of "Hey...you might survive..& then you'd need to repopulate the species, wouldn't you?"
I also think that the human race wouldn't be total pushovers, but "In the Beginning" is one way to show that the huddling and the hopeless defiance can happen at the same time. However, remember that at this time humans are known to be fairly complacent, collectively living in utopia for decades.
Mark
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
If they were that complacent, why do so many join Starfleet?
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Complacent on average. Remember, humanity in the 24th cetury on the whole is supposed to have the main goal of self-amelioration - improving themselves spiritually or intellectually, since most physical needs had been removed. To me, what this means is that Earth is one big party with people not caring for much other than hanging out in French bars, or Creole kitchens, or going into whatever intellectual endeavours they want to.
For a fraction of the population, their desire is for exploration or adventure, so off to Starfleet they go. But standards can lapse rom time to time, as we see from people like Barclay and Voyager's "Good Shepherd Gang". Still, if even only a fraction of one percent of the human race wants to go into Starfleet, that still results in millions of prospective candidates for the Academy.
Mark
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
The list, by yours truly . I think it lists all known ships.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Look at my post on the second page. Its got a few more ships.
BTW.. i like the idea of the Phase II ENT being Apollo-class, but that is hearsay when it comes to canon (maybe Mojo can get Okuda's blessing and 'make it so').
And dont forget to mention the unseen Rigel-class Tolstoy...
and the Constitution hull may not have been a Constitution, but instead a variant that looks identical from the underside.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I don't think there were ANY constitutions at the time of TNG - why else would they have gone to the trouble of dubbing "constellation" over Geordie's "constitution" in "The Battle" - apart from not wanting to drag out the connie model - and keep the series separate.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
I personally like the idea that the hull seen in BoBW was from the design we used to call the Challenger-class.. a Constellations saucer and upper nacelle carriage, but with a constitution secnodary hull.. maybe Mojo could 'make that so' as well (I'm just full of requests today)
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
Hmmm...
...I really don't like the idea of a Galaxy class ship at Wolf 359 at all.
First, if the ship's hull and systems were not complete (as Mojo would like to suggest), what would be the point of sending it out against a Borg cube?
Second, if it was a completed and commissioned Galaxy class, it would seriously damage the reputation of this class even further. Ever since the Ent-E arrived, the Galaxy class is constantly being pounded upon by fans, calling it "outdated", "weak", and inferior. It goes totally against what the class was supposed to represent, the best technological achievemnt of Starfleet at the time. Why must we destroy yet another one?
If more "first-rate" ships are needed, I would prefer seeing a few more Ambassador class ships (something we didn't see much of at all in TNG), maybe even an Akira and Steamrunner or two. Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
Capainmike, the Challenger class didn't look at all like a Connie, it was a Galaxy variant, and a study model for it exists.
Unfortunately I'm late for this debate, and everything seems to have been well answered so far, so kudos to you all. But I might add a small theory to further embellish the reasoning behind Shelby's line- 'the fleet will be back up in year', although it has been covered already. This is an exceprt from a faq section on my site:
Being centre stage to the Federation one would think Earth would have a great deal of defensive measures in place - hopefully more so than that feeble array of small fighters that emerged from Jovian orbit to intercept the Borg Cube in 'The Best of Both Worlds'! So I think it's highly sensible for them to employ a specialised unit of Starships, perhaps mostly made up of older vessels, but well armed, and with skeleton crews but with the means to supply full compliments to make up the numbers at short notice.
Such crews could reside or operate from outposts and scrambling stations in and round the Sol area, and can be called upon in an emergency to man these specially deployed interception forces. Such reasoning regarding the use of these older vessels, used only in extreme situations may explain why most of the ships known destroyed at Wolf 359 were in some respects lesser known classes with older designations such as Cheyenne, Rigel, Challenger, Springfield, Freedom, Apollo, Niagara, etc. So, if such a First Fleet or 'Home Fleet' exists, Shelby may have been referring to this fleet when describing the loss of 39 vessels and that it would take a year to 'get (this fleet) back up'. It may also explain her obvious familiarity with the ships of this First Fleet, as she seemed to be able to easily identify them from a mass of burning debris from the Enterprise viewscreen as they cruised through the battlefield aftermath.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I'm just going to chip in with my $0.02 regarding the Galaxy at Wolf 359...
There are many examples of ships that are supposed to be grand, superior designs, that end up performing much less successfully than heralded. The Titanic is an extreme example, for instance.
I agree that the Galaxy-class is definitely one of the best... but in being the jack-of-all-trades, it falls slightly behind in the combat arena, since so many of its systems are devoted to scientific and civilian systems. Therefore, when the ships are thrown into all-out combat, they might be a little disadvantaged.
Also, consider that the Galaxy-class is hampered by the fact that there are very few (or relatively few) ships of the class in operation. Therefore, ANY lost ship becomes a Big Deal. However, you have to consider the circumstances.
Losing a Galaxy-class starship at Wolf 359 is not a mark of "shame" on the design... merely a sad addendum to the already tragic losses of the battle.
____________________
I've got a question that no one else apparently mentioned before:
We know that the Defiant-class project was started in reaction to the Enterprise's news about the Borg. The Defiant was supposed to be a "Borg Buster" starship... so where was it during the BOBW crisis?
Most likely the design/prototype was not completed or ready for service when the Borg cube appeared... but was there some attempt to launch the uncompleted ship and take on the cube? Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
I doubt Defiant was even *THAT* far along. Shelby told Riker and LaForge that all the weapons Starfleet was building to combat the Borg were still on the drawing board. I don't think construction even began until after Wolf 359, when Ben Sisko was assigned to the shipyard.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
I must say, a Galaxy at W359 is very unlikely, especially if it get's blown to pieces. The Galaxy was brand new in the 2360s, it was the best of the best Starfleet had to offer. Enterprise was only the third/fourth (depending on the NCC-71564) ship of the class.
My view on the Republic: I believe the Republic is indeed still an unrefitted Constitution. But could it not be that this ship is in the Museum, but is ALSO used for cadet training? Similar to present day trainings on sailing ships. Not so much a technical training, but more a social and 'backwards compatability' training . Of course, in Kirk's days on the Republic, she must have been still in active duty.
One scene i'd love to see... Two lone Olympic class hospital ships searching the debris for escape pods, survivors (perhaps picking up the pods of the Saratoga). Could become quite moody.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
There's a Canadian ship sitting in Lake Ontario that is a floating museum, but I believe that every once in a while they get a bunch of cadets to take her around the lake.
I think they do something similar with teh USS Constitution, as they do need to turn her around every so often to reduce corrosion on the wood.
Mark
[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Nguyen ]
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Wait One Second!
IN order of construction: 1 Galaxy, 2 Yamato, 3 E-D
Those that have registries below the Yamato were delayed, had reappropriated NCCs [NCCs assigned to a ship of another class, but given to a Galaxy ship after the original order was canceled], etc etc.
The Odessey, Venture, Magellan, Challanger--- and two others who names escape me at the moment are part of the *12* mentioned in the TNG TM [not by name, but there were 12 ships, not six].
Beyond that, those were only the 12 that were ordered in 2343... Wolf 359 was after 2365, wasn't it? Don't you guys think that after 20 years, Starfleet would have started building on those stored hulks? Don't you think that after the incident at System J-25 Starfleet would have started to increase production on it's modern vessels [Galaxy included... as well as developing the Defiant]. And let's not forget to mention the Dominion war and the duel build up [prior to the wormhole crossover and then prior to the hot war].
There is definately more than 12 GCS ships, probably not more than 30.
But as to the question... could there have been a GCS at Wolf 359. I wouldn't put it beyond possibility. But in all likelihood, I would still say no.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Red Admiral, i didnt say the Challenger-class.. i said 'the design we used to call the Challenger-class' .. until Bernd's research uncovered the design of the Challenger class, it was thought that that name referred to a ship that was rumored to be present at Wolf 359, designed like i said. It was attributed to a (probably misunderstood) quote from Okuda at a convention and a few fandom sources.
Oh, and Mojo, please dont destroy a Galaxy-class ship at Wolf 359. It completely uncalled for.
[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: CaptainMike ]
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
Well actually, J, going strictly by canon it's most likely the Ent-D was the first Galaxy built after the prototype. Yar says so in "Yesterday's Enterprise". I realise it's in an alternate timeline but I believe it's still better evidence than the TNG Tech Manual.
Mojo, I'll be less than impressed if you destroy a Galaxy at Wolf 359. Bad idea.
I don't think it hurts to have a refit Connie at Wolf 359. For one thing, we know there's one in the BoBW graveyard. Another thing, just because the Ent-A was retired early it doesn't mean the entire class was removed from service too. We have Mirandas and Constellations at the time - why not some straggling Connies?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
I would say the first time Galaxies really started to get destroyed on a regular basis was the Dominion War. Before that, there wasn't an awful lot of conflict, apart from 359. The Cardassian War is probably to early for Galaxies to be heavily involved. OTOH, there probably must have been a Galaxy under construction at Utopia at the time of W359, or at least one of those spare spaceframes. And if that is the case, than it could have been spaceworthy to some degree. But I doubt it would've made it to Wolf 359 (remember the Enterprise and Galaxy only going on outer solar journeys after being declared deepspace-worthy and warp capable). An unfinished Galaxy could be pictured acting as a weapons platform to defend the Fleetyards, however.
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
I don't recall the Galaxy class ships being destroyed at a regular basis during the Dominion War. Oh sure, they were lost along with entire fleets at the first Breen encounter, and I'm sure there were a few in the 7th Fleet that was decimated...but have we actually seen one get blown up where other vessels managed to survive?
I remember in Sacrifice of Angels, two Galaxy class ships (presumably the Magellan and the other ship that Sisko mentioned was "in too tight") leashing it out on a Galor.
We saw the USS Galaxy herself manage to survive a hull breech from an orbital weapons platform. Amazingly, the hull breech was in the engineering section, but she kept on going.
And finally, I believe we saw another Galaxy acting as a "stationary weapons platform" dishing out phaser fire while the other little ships were running around.
As to order of construction, everyone seems to forget that the Venture is a refit of the current Galaxy design with additional phaser arrays on the nacelles (thus supplementing the other relatively small phaser arrarys on the aft part of the ship). You could argue that the Venture was refit from a previous configuration, but later when CGI was used, the CGI modelers didn't notice the extra arrays. So, we had fleets of regular Galaxy class ships and only saw the refit version whenever they used stock footage of the Venture docked at DS9. Not that there's really anything wrong with that, but...
Mojo and any other CGI modelers out there, I really admire your work (without it, we would never have those fleet battles). I'm curious how you create damage for CGI action sequences, especially when you have a shot that rips off part of the hull and exposes the skeleton.
[ January 19, 2002: Message edited by: Ace ]
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
i REALLY REALLY dislike having a GCS at wolf 359. as i said, i don't think they would have missed mentioning it in the episode if one had been among the wreckage.
--jacob
[ January 19, 2002: Message edited by: EdipisReks ]
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
...Unless it had been totally destroyed like the Saratoga... Plus, it's not like Shelby was looking at *all* the hulks in the graveyard. Nor I think would they let Shelby just go on listing all the ships there even if she'd had the chance!
Mark
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:Yar says so in "Yesterday's Enterprise".
Yar also says the ship can carry 4,000 troops. And Yar says the ship is the *FIRST* Galaxy-Class starship (NOT the second). In other words, the YE Enterprise is the real-reality's Galaxy.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
So in the alternate timeline, the Enterprise came first.
Of course, in an alternate timeline, I'm not a virgin and own a red 1989 Buick Skyhawk. But I live in this timeline, so what's it matter
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
Yeah, no GCS at Wolf 359, please, Mojo.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
-U.S.S. Galaxy NCC-70637, formerly NX-70637 (TNG Tech Manual, "Tears of the Prophets" [VGR])
-U.S.S. Magellan ("Sacrifice of Angels" [DS9])
-U.S.S. Odyssey NCC-71832 ("The Jem'Hadar" [DS9])
-U.S.S. Trinculo NCC-71867 (Studio model seen on display at exhibitions, possible appearances in either "Sacrifice of Angels" [DS9] or "Tears of the Prophets" [DS9])
-U.S.S. Venture NCC-71854 ("The Way of the Warrior" [DS9], "Sacrifice of Angels" [DS9], "Tears of the Prophets" [DS9])
There's also that wierd NCC-70564 from the TNG Calendar that we never did figure out the name of. (*hint hint, Mojo...* ) But I've never heard of this NCC-71564. Anyone care to enlighten me?
-MMoM
[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
Snay: I see no reason why the normal Ent-D couldn't also carry 4000 troops. After all, the class is meant to have a 15,000 person evac limit. And of course, the alternate D has the same volume as ours.
And doesn't saying "She was the first Galaxy-class ship built" naturally imply she was the first after the USS Galaxy? Yar didn't say Enterprise-class.
[ January 19, 2002: Message edited by: Dax ]
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
MMoM: There's no solid evidence making the Magellan a Galaxy other than people's hunches. The Galaxies in SoA were all apparently CGI with no registries on them (although it would be interesting to know whether Digital Muse or VisionArt scratch-built a new CGI model or reused ILM's from Generations. Mojo, any insights?) If they were scratch-built, then we can assume the CGI model was naked until it served as the USS Galaxy in TotP and then as the Challenger in Timeless.
We've heard several times that the battles in SoA and TotP were all-CGI, so there goes that Trinculo theory. I think the most likely explanation is that somebody just wanted to give the 4-foot GCS model a new name when it went out on tour. Weren't the phaser strips on the nacelles (that were holdovers from the AGT refurbishing) pulled off it? That seems like proof enough that it was brought into the shop after "playing" the Venture where an arbitrary name-change might have happened.
Oh, and to nitpick, the Odyssey was NCC 71832.
[ January 19, 2002: Message edited by: The_Tom ]
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Dax, I believe the line spoken was "first of her class" or something along those lines. So it seems to reason that Starfleet re-named the Galaxy as the Enterprise, perhaps for morale purposes.
Also, Yar's comments about the troops seems to imply that the ship is specificly geared to carry a crew complement of probably close to 5,000 (figuring for a larger amount of crew then the "real" E-D). While the "real" E-D could carry that many in an emergency, the YE E-D probably has a lot more barracks, crew lounges, and training centers (and drop ships!) then our E-D. So we're talking about a completely different interior design here ... (something backed up by the numerous extras seen in every scene ... we NEVER see that many people in 10-Forward!)
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
I think Sisko said something like "The Magellan and the Venture are in too tight" and then in the next scene we saw two Galaxies firing on ships. I think that's where the Magellan/Galaxy theory comes in. If not, then it is a Constellation, according to the Encyclopedia.
[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: Veers ]
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
Snay: No, Yar most definitely called her ship Galaxy-class. I'm pretty sure my quote is spot on, and I can't be bothered checking my tape for confirmation right now.
As for 10-fwd, we did see that many people there in Generations. I do agree though that the internal arrangemeant of the alternate D would be a little different. They probably have 3 or 4 crew per quarters rather than the usual 1 or 2.
Posted by Phelps (Member # 713) on :
According to BOBW script's set list, Admiral Hanson's bridge and ready room scenes would've been on a Galaxy-class starship. However, the purpose of this note was to indicate which sets should be used, so it really could've been any ship.
While the Defiant may have been a part of "every admiral's uncle" ideas, and while we know that Starfleet "began exploring the possibility" of building the Defiant back then, Shelby makes it clear that in 2366, priority was given to developing new weapons systems and a defensive strategy using existing ships. After all, they must have known the Borg were coming in two years at the most, so why waste time developing a new starship class?
After Wolf 359, however, the Defiant would've been given the priority, considering that the public and official opinion probably resembled the aftermath of September 11.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
most importantly though, is that Hanson's scenes didnt end up getting shot on the Galaxy bridge.. he got a couple monitors and a railing behind him as i recall
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Most specifically, his "battle" scenes were shot in front of a wall with generic greeblies on it (possibly the transporter room side wall unit), a railing similar to that seen on the old battle bridge, and a "Red Alert" flashy as seen on the TOS movie-era ships. This indicates that not only was he not on a Galaxy-class ship, but on nothing of the era. My opinion is that he was on the battle bridge or aux control of some Excelsior-class starship (probably whichever ship he visited the Enterprise with), directing the battle from there while the ship's Captain tried to keep his ship in one piece long enough.
Mark
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Yes.. the very necessary room that is called the Combat Information Center in today's navy (And there was one of those on the Yesterday's Ent E-D, i heard it a lot in announcements in 10-fwd).. I think in the navy whenever a ship goes to alert the executive officer goes to the CIC and the captain goes to the bridge to ensure theyre both not in the same place.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I accidentally typed the Yamato's reg for the Odyssey. I fixed it now. But still no one has answered where this NCC-71564 came from.
-MMoM Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
Speaking of unnamed GCS, remember that Vulcan in DS9 "Field of Fire"? They said he served on a vessel for nth number of years, and that vessel had a crew of 1000+. It might have been a GCS.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Actually, they gave a name for his ship. The...Grissom? Gorkon? A known Excelsior, at any rate. It has postulated by some, unwilling in an aesthetic sense to have Starfleet so quickly reusing names, that an Excelsior could indeed carry a thousand people were it serving as a troop transport.
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
Yeah, it was the USS Grissom. They said it had 1000+ people on it, was destroyed by the Jem Ha'dar, and only 5 people survived.
Posted by StyroFoam Man (Member # 706) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ace: [QB]We saw the USS Galaxy herself manage to survive a hull breech from an orbital weapons platform. Amazingly, the hull breech was in the engineering section, but she kept on going.
Prehaps they FINIALY moved the antimatter pods away from the BOTTOM of the hull and added some "protection" around the warp core....
Hell, a modern reactor has 3-6 feet of cement containment dome around it, along with the cement buildup around the reactor itself...
Hmmm...
YARD WORKER: You want us to do what?! CAPTAIN: Pour cement around the warp core. WORKER: But-- That's made of... dirt! CAPTAIN: Yes, so? WORKER: (sigh)Ok... It's your ship!
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Ha! I did some old-thread-browsing and I found the answer myself! The NCC-71564 is an invention of the good Reverend. He had wanted to include the ship from the Calendar (which he had thought to be called the U.S.S. Santa Maria) in his list, but since the registry was NCC-70564, lower than that of the U.S.S. Galaxy herself, our buddy the Rev decided to (to use his words) "bump it up" so that it would fit a sequential registry scheme.
This NCC-71564 does not exist. And it may be that the NCC-70564 doesn't either. I don't think we were ever able to match that calendar pic to a shot from an episode.
I still wish Mojo would tell us what the name of that ship was supposed to be, though. Santa Maria never seemed right to me from looking at the pic. But it definitely was a two-word name. The last word looked a bit like 'Hope' as I recall.
Give me a little while and I'll dig the scans out of my files and post them.
-MMoM Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Okay, here we go:
Actually, I don't know why I'm posting these here in this thread. I guess because I know Mojo's been stopping by. Any-who...
-MMoM Posted by Mojo (Member # 536) on :
hmmm lots of questions! I hope I can remember everything...
- The image of the Galaxy Class from the 'calendar' you speak of I believe is a Gary Hutzel image - it's not from a 'Ships of the Line' calendar so I really don't know what the reg is!
- ILM's CG Galaxy Class model, if they do in fact have one, has never left ILM. Digital Muse did the CG FX work for most of DS9, so they built the initial CGI model used for the show (probably for Sacrafice of Angels).
- SOA was a joint venture between Muse and Foundation. The producers knew that the battle they wanted to do would be cost prohibitive with traditional FX, so there was a major gear up of new CGI models for this episode. Muse handled the Fed ships (Galaxy, Miranda, Defiant, etc) while Foundation did the bad guy ships (Cardassian, Jem Hadaar, etc). Muse did the shots for the first half of the show, and Foundation did everything in the second half (beginning with the close-up shot of the top of the Defiant after the act break).
- When it came time for "Timeless," Rob Bonchune went in and did some major fix-up work on the Galaxy Class model, which is the one that has been used up to present day. A brand new CGI Galaxy Class model will make it's debut in "Unseen Frontier." This will be the most accurate yet and may surpass the studio miniature in detail.
- In regards to Constitution Class ships at Wolf 359, the evidence on screen points to one, and since A) There is no proof that one WASN'T there and B) I have the model - I'm saying it was there. Besides, it fits in with my modus operandi that, with approx 24 hours to put a massive defensive fleet together, if it could fly and fire, it was there.
- Despite the fact the many of you would like to believe a Galaxy Class ship wasn't there, there simply WILL be one. Just not wanting to see another one destroyed is not a good enough reason to keep it out of the fray - in fact, because it IS the best and mightiest ship in the fleet, all the more reason the battle was such a tragedy - NOTHING could stop the Borg.
However, my inclusion of this ship is not without good reason and forethought:
- As pointed out, Shelby didn't sit there and name every ship in the graveyard. They were there long enough to see what happened, stood shocked for a minute and moved on. There are MANY unaccounted for ships.
- I firmly believe that Utopia Planitia would have been emptied out of ALL ships that were completed enough to, as I like to say, "fly and fire." To say that ships still at UP were not capable of joining the battle is nonsense. Some of them certainly were in no shape to fly, but it stands to reason that at any moment there are many ships in various stages of completion. Some of them probably just needed a few last panels installed and a paint job! So, rather than play with canon and either make up a new ship name or mess with the life on an existing one, I think it's fine to say it was a ship yet to be finished.
TIME FOR THE PRACTICAL REASONS MOTIVATING ALL THIS:
Welcome to the behind the scene section, folks! This is where I hope you will bear with me and understand how decisions get made - not just for my book, but for most movies and TV shows as well!
- I have a finite amount of resources to get this book done. There is absolutely no way I have the ability to get even TEN brand new classes of ship made to the standards I insist on for this book (they all have to BETTER than TV quality). As much as I'd like to build every alternate class we saw at Wolf 359, it's just not possible. I'll have a few made, but most of the ones being worked on will also be of use in other places (such as the Excelsior, Ambassador and Oberth). For these reasons, I have to make the most of the ships I already have in the library. I wish to respect canon AND the fans (which is why I am here in the first place), but please try and understand - if it's even remotely possible that one of the already-built ships was at Wolf 359, I've got to go with it.
- Finally, the cover of the book is an extremely important consideration. Pocket Books would like a Wolf 359 image on the cover, and I agree it would be quite an attention-getter. However, the cover of a Star Trek book is much, much better off with an ENTERPRISE on it (or at least the same class so that the average Trek fan will recognize something). I originally planned to have the connie on there, but Paramount prefers the D, since it is the ship most fans these days relate to.
So, the cover has to have a Wolf 359 shot in which the Borg Cube and a Galaxy Class ship are very recognizable so even your average, run of the mill, doesn't have any blueprints memorized Star Trek fan will see the book and go "hey, cool, the Enterprise fighting the Borg! Everyone loves that! Lemme take a closer look!"
If it makes you feel better, call me whore.
:-)
Mojo
[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: Mojo ]
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
Note: Post was made before Mojo added the rest of his post.
AH! Where's the rest of his post?!
A GCS at Wolf 359...I stil don't like it, but oh well...maybe you could have the unfinished USS Sovereign engage the Borg at Wolf 359, instead...and be destroyed! ::evil laugh::
If you must use a Galaxy class, you could only use the stardrive section? That way the ship wasn't a total loss...I still don't get it.
11,000 lives. 39 ships. If all the ships were equal size, that gives us crews of about 283. No need for a monster sizes ship to take a 400-500 size chunk out of the list.
On a totally unrelated topic: Is the new Galaxy CGI model going to have the nacelle phaser arrays like the Venture?
[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: Ace ]
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Your right Monkey, I did. Oh well, silly me. I'm sure I did retract my theory that it was labled Santa Maria, that last word definatly looks like "Hope" any maritime buffs out there know of any famous ship names ending with hope?
I probably shouldn't have included it in my list really.
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
Fine, I understand the marketing reasons. When you write the history of the "blank" Galaxy class starship, could you say it lasted longer than the USS Melbourne, at least?
Do you still plan on having a New Orleans in the book?
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
Whore.
Please make the GCS go out in a blaze of glory. Something like "It was due to the effort of the USS [name of GCS] that anyone escaped the battle at all. The [name of only ship that escaped] was able to recover a majority of the escape pods at Wolf 359 and escape, while the [name of GCS] faught a desperate rearguard action. Her crew's last, valiant stand against the Borg saved over a [large number] lives and bought time for the Enterprise to arrive."
A large memorial build near the remains of the ship would also be nice, like the Arizona memorial at Pearl Harbor.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Incidentally, I was going to mention this earlier, but It slipped my mind while talking about the Galaxies.
We *do* know what happened to a good deal of the wreckage from Wolf 359: It was hauled off to the surplus yard at Qualor II, as per "Unification" (TNG).
It might be cool to see some tugs clearing the graveyard debris after the battle...
-MMoM Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Cute, MMoM.
Mojo: I think canonite feathers would be less likely to be ruffled if the book actually goes into a bit of depth showing the emptying of UP and this partially-finished Galaxy (along with others) and flying off to their doom, with the text drawing attention to the fact. Some people will be impossible to please, of course, as I'm sure Brannon Braga could attest. But 95% is certainly good enough and I'm pretty sure you can get that. I'll add that <ricky ricardo>you've got some s'plaining to do </ricky ricardo> when it comes to the Connie, too. Off the top of my head, let's assume that the Republic was still around as a refit-Connie trainer ship but it stayed out of the fight, owing to whatever reasons (It was off at Vulcan with a crew of cadets for cultural exchange or something.) But there could have been a second refit-Connie training ship which was recalled from taking comet samples in the Kuiper belt and became one of the true tragedies of the battle when its crew of 300 cadets were slaughtered, (not to mention destroying a 100-plus-year-old piece of history.) I'm just theorizing, of course.
And I still say you should get in contact with Rob Legato and ask about that lost footage. You've got the power, dammit! In many ways that's the original Wolf 359 "unseen frontier" that's been unseen for nine years now.
One last thing: about the VFX in "Angels." Who/what exactly is/was Vision Art, then? They appeared in the SofA credits, and Foundation didn't.
[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: The_Tom ]
Posted by Phelps (Member # 713) on :
Vision Art did all the CGI for DS9 until "Sacrifice of Angels". It wasn't much, because DS9 of the first five seasons used models 90% of the time. Vision Art's animators made the first CG Defiant model and animated its warp jump in "Defiant". We also see this model in the revised opening credits and the atmospheric footage of "Starship Down". The company's CGI Jem'Hadar fighter appears in "Starship Down" as well. In addition, they modelled a runabout, did a bunch of Odo morphs, etc.
When Foundation and Muse took over, the CG models had to be rebuilt because Vision Art didn't use LightWave, and the models didn't survive the conversion process. That's why we got the strange new Defiant in "Sacrifice of Angels", among other things, which they ended up fixing in "The Changing Face of Evil."
[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: Phelps ]
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
You know - that Galaxy looks like it has 2 gaps - i.e. three words. The first USS (duh) the second two - they look like James Kirk!! The J and the two K's seem to appear!?!
BTW, Mojo - this Galaxy that appears... I'm guessing not finished?? (would a Galaxy Class be hanging around sector 001 - Picard did mention in "Conspiracy" that it was highly unusual for a ship like the Enterprise to return to Earth! I'm guessing half built? Major Damage? Anyway - maybe a good effect would be to not have too many lights on... (depending on how deep into battle they are) I can't see these ships having many lights on... especially in the saucer section. I hope we return to the "round" shields (if we see shields) Does your Galaxy model separate!?! Although I don't think that it would have cause Picard/Locutus was fooled by Riker in BOBW part II. What else is there that get usually overlooked in Trek about what these ships would be doing in combat?? Phasers from turrets we never see get used (i.e. the ones on the nacelle pylons on the Mirandas a la STII:TWOK. Photons... have we seen any photons in still pics... could we have a few of those cool "shards of light" torpedoes that we saw in the TOS movies... and again in "Flashback" - I loved them - they looked so much more powerful than the 'blobs' seen in First Contact or the 'blobs with starry bits' seen in TNG.
Something else... did the fleet make MUCH of a dent on the cube? how long did the cube take to regenerate in Q-Who? How long was the time period between The Battle of Wolf 359 and the next time we see the cube (cause we saw no battle damage)
Also someone asked a question in the other 'questions' thread about why did the Excelsior Melbourne destruct/breakup so more quickly than the Saratoga... other than story/drama I would say that maybe the Melbourne had been in battle a lot longer than the Saratoga?
ALSO Did the Melbourne ever get a new Captain!?! Riker was supposed to be the new Captain... but he hadn't exactly REFUSED by the time of Wolf 359 - so did the Melbourne go into battle with out an experienced Captain!?! Infact maybe this was a problem, maybe the mad scramble for ships left many ships that might have been 'mothballed' with skeleton/unexperienced/unqualified/untrained crewmembers!?! Maybe some of the Engineers of UP/McKinley/SanFran/Luna drydocks offered to help to fill positions!?! Maybe Academy students DID serve!?! Maybe only one ship - and maybe only final year cadets and/or "Red Squad". They needed relatively experienced crew... that 'fleet' must have been VERY rag-tag.
[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: AndrewR ]
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Wasn't Admiral Hanson aboard the Melbourne?
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
It was never confirmed, however; some people (including me) like to believe that he was on the Melbourne.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
The way Shelby said, "...The Melbourne." when she was listing destroyed ship she saw on the monitor...it implied something important, like that was the admiral's ship in addition to being the ship the Riker was offered. It's also been speculated that the Melbourne was the ship they both met the Enterprise aboard, hasn't it?
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
The beat there was bacuse, when the Melbourne was destroyed, it meant Riker wouldnt be going there as captain and Shelby wouldnt get to be first officer of the Enterprise. she was just being disappointed about her career
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
Admist all that death and destruction, she's worrying about her career? I think she probably didn't expect to live that long.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Mojo, would you be at liberty to give us an e-mail address for Gary Hutzel (or someone else who would know), so's we can ask him/them about the Glaxy from the pic?
-MMoM Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Veers: It was never confirmed, however; some people (including me) like to believe that he was on the Melbourne.
I think someone even went as far as to say that the cut-out in the Admirals transmission in BOBW coincides with the Melbourne being whacked in Emissary. (boom)
This theory may have a problem or two, I don't recally how far into the battle the transmission was supposed to be. Didn't the Admiral say they were about to fall back? Because it appears that the Melbourne was destroyed in the first few minutes of the battle.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I watched BoBWII on the weekend actually, and the dialogue went something like: "The fight does not go well, Enterprise. We're attempting to withdraw and regroup. Rendevous with fleet-- "
From Hanson's dialogue, it certainly seems that Hanson had ordered the fleet to retreat to some point away from the scene of battle. As the fleet started to retreat (or started trying), Hanson got on the phone with the Enterprise and that's the last we see of him. In any case, assuming the scenes from "Emissary" are indeed at the beginning of the fight, there's no plausible way he'd be on the Melbourne. Since there was at least one other Excelsior-class ship at Wolf 359 (the Roosevelt), he could have easily been on that one or any other older ship; we know that Admirals like to ride around on Excelsiors (and "All Good Things" says that Admirals get to choose their own ship) so it needn't be the ONLY Excelsior we actually see.
So what was hanson trying to say when he was cut off? Almost anything, really...
"Rendezvous with fleet at coordinates..." "Rendezvous with fleet task force two..." "Rendezvous with fleet support ships at..."
This last one poses an interesting quesiton - what if there was a number of unarmed fleet tenders or repair ships that were not part of the combat line? What if there were ships there to help repair ships in the event of a prolonged battle?
This also leads to the question of how long Starfleet was EXPECTING the battle to be. Most people think that the fight was over in a matter of minutes - but what if Starfleet was banking on the Enterprise's previous experience and expecting a long battle broken up by frequent pauses for repair and conferences?
Mark
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
I'm betting it was "Rendezvous with fleet at coordinates..." 40 ships is hardly enough for a prolonged battle agains the Borg. And being that close to Sol, I don't think any support ships would have been brought along. You either won and went home under your own power, or you died.
[ January 22, 2002: Message edited by: David Templar ]
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Not necessarily -- remember that the Enterprise was playing hide-and-seek in that nebula for almost a whole day. Of course, we know that the Borg were after Picard.
But I'm guessing that Starfleet was expecting a rather drawn-out battle. Hanson's demeanor in the pre-battle message was fairly confident. Everyone expected that forty starships would be able to take out the single Borg ship. Because the Federation was undoubtedly the most advanced power in its corner of the galaxy, and Starfleet was the most powerful, most dedicated, and most prepared interstellar organization known. Forty ships against one invader? Those are comfortable odds for the Federation.
Of course, we all know how that turned out...
At the very least, I'm sure that the Wolf 359 fleet expected to engage the Borg for several hours in a strong holding action. Given the Borg's power against the Enterprise, I'm sure they had no illusions about a quick victory, but they also had no doubt that they'd ultimately win. They probably expected to stop the cube and wear it down with their combined firepower, and eventually destroy it. (Like they managed to do in "First Contact.")
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
For what it's worth, I welcome a Galaxy in the battle at Wolf 359, finished or unfinished.
Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
If we're saying that Hanson was on an Excelsior-class vessel and that vessel was the Melbourne, then could the Excelsior that had the entire forward half of its primary hull ripped off be the Roosevelt? Or maybe Hanson was on the Roosevelt - it is an older ship than the Melbourne and Admirals tend to get given older ships to traverse the Federation.
Did that make sense? I'm not sure! Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by akb1979: If we're saying that Hanson was on an Excelsior-class vessel and that vessel was the Melbourne, then could the Excelsior that had the entire forward half of its primary hull ripped off be the Roosevelt? Or maybe Hanson was on the Roosevelt - it is an older ship than the Melbourne and Admirals tend to get given older ships to traverse the Federation.
Did that make sense? I'm not sure!
All we know is that if Hanson was aboard the same Excelsior that met the Enterprise at New Pacifica, then it probably wasn't aboard the Melbourne. Since the ship that had had it's saucer blown off was clearly marked as the Melbourne.
He could have been aboard the Roosevelt, or any other Excelsior-Class ship that may have been present...then again he could have transfered to another ship entirely, we simply don't know and we never will for sure.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
But IIRC the Excelsior that brought Hanson to that first colony was never identified. So it doesn't really matter...
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Well, TECHNICALLY speaking it was the USS Repulse, as that was how the model was known to be marked for the first time when we see that particular bit of stock footage. It's since been seen a zillion times as (among ships) the Intrepid, the Crazy Horze, the Cairo... It's also often seen in combination with the footage of the model labeled as the USS Hood, seen way back in "Encounter at Farpoint".
We'll probably never know how many Excelsiors were at Wolf 359. Assuming the ship that met the Enterprise at New Providence was NOT the USS Roosevelt, we know then that there must have been at least three. I think that the Excelsior we saw was indeed Hanson's personal ship, as I susbscribe to the idea that an Admiral gets to choose a ship, presumably the one that is permanently assigned to whatever starbase the Admiral serves at. TNG establishes that Excelsiors are frequently used to haul Admirals about, so I'm thinking that Excelsior was Hanson's own, and the ship from which he commanded the fleet.
Mark
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Well, looking at my shiplist it seams that the Intrepid is the only other known Excelsior that could have been at Wolf 359...in fact this could explain what happen to the ship that allowed a whole new Class to be named after it, just a few years later.
Mojo, are you taking notes?
[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: Reverend ]
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
That's not a bad idea, destroying the Intrepid at Wolf 359, and then granting the name to an in-development starship class (it's unreasonable to think that they started developing the Intrepid-class after Wolf 359 and launched the prototype in four years!). However, there's also the possibility that they were developing the Intrepid class under that name while the old Excelsior edition was still around, intent on decomissioning the old one before they finished the new one. But then again, who knows what Starfleet smokes at their name selection parties...
I'm intereseted in how you can conclude that the Intrepid could be the ONLY other known Excelsior at Wolf 359. The Repulse could have easily been there too, for example, as she was last mentioned in "Unnatural Selection" when we saw her Captain.
Mark
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: That's not a bad idea, destroying the Intrepid at Wolf 359, and then granting the name to an in-development starship class (it's unreasonable to think that they started developing the Intrepid-class after Wolf 359 and launched the prototype in four years!). However, there's also the possibility that they were developing the Intrepid class under that name while the old Excelsior edition was still around, intent on decomissioning the old one before they finished the new one. But then again, who knows what Starfleet smokes at their name selection parties...
Its not unheard of. The Promethus and Yeagar Classes both seamed to be in development while a ship of the same name was already running about the place...ok, so the Yeagar is a bad example, but you get the idea.
[/QUOTE]I'm intereseted in how you can conclude that the Intrepid could be the ONLY other known Excelsior at Wolf 359. The Repulse could have easily been there too, for example, as she was last mentioned in "Unnatural Selection" when we saw her Captain. Mark[/QUOTE]
Well lets have a look shall we? I may have jumped the gun a bit....oh wait, I have the Repulse on the conference room chart that appeared in the 6th & 7th seasons, after Wolf 359....and on the MIA/WIA/KIA chart in DS9.
[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: Reverend ]
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
All known (to me anyway) Excelsior Class ships
U.S.S. ENTERPRISE NCC-1701 B Commanded by Captain John Harriman, Third starship to bear the name, Launched in 2293 DECOMISSIONED
U.S.S. EXCELSIOR NCC-2000 Commanded by Captain Styles During her trial runs, First of it's class, Persude a stolen Enterprise from Spacedock in 2285 but sufferd total failure in her main warp computer drive due to sabotage, testbed for failed Transwarp Drive project, Commanded by Captain Hikaru Sulu from 2290, instrimental in the battle at Khitomer in 2293, partisipated in unsuccesful search and rescue mission for the Hera in 2370 OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. REPULSE NCC-2544 Commanded by Captain Taggart, Katherine Pulaski's posting until 2365 when she transfered to the Enterprise-D, Assigned to deep space exploration in sector 22358 in 2369 OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. ROOSEVELT NCC-2573 Lost at the battle of Wolf 359 in 2367 DESTROYED
U.S.S. OKINAWA NCC-13958 Commanded by then Captain Leyton while Ben Sisko was Executive officer, Fought in the Tzenkethi war OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. BERLIN NCC-14232 Stationed near the Romulan Neutral Zone in 2364, Assigned to patrol the Romulan Neutral Zone in 2369 OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. LEXINGTON NCC-14427 Transported medical supplies to Tarkan colony in 2370 DECOMISSIONED
U.S.S. FEARLESS NCC-14598 Starfleet propulsion specialist Kosinski tested an experimental warp drive upgrade on the Fearless in 2364, Assigned to planetary mapping in the Beta Cygni system in 2369 OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. TECUMSEH NCC-14934 Commanded by Captain Raymond, Fought during the Cardassian War, Partisipated in counter attack against Klingon Forces near Ajilon Prime with the Rutledge in 2373, Suffered losses in 2374 during the Dominion war OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. POTEMKIN NCC-18253 Posting of Will Riker after leaving Betazed, Assists in the evacuation of Nervala IV Science station and involved in hostilities at Turkana IV in 2361, part of the 9th fleet assigned to DS9 in 2374 OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. LIVINGSTON NCC-34099 Ben Sisko and Curzon Dax once served on the Livingston OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. INTREPID NCC-38907 First ship on the scene after responding to a distress call from the site of the Khitomer massacre in 2346 DECOMISSIONED
U.S.S. CROCKETT NCC-38955 Transported Admiral Mitsuya to DS9 in 2370 OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. MALINCHE NCC-38997 Commanded by Captain Sanders, Attacked by Maquis forces in 2373, had to be towed back to DS9 for repairs OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. GORKON NCC-40512 Part of the task force during expected Borg invasion and Admiral Nechayev's flagship 2369 OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. FREDRICKSON NCC-42111 Docked at Utopia Planitia in 2371, Damaged and had to be towed after an encounter with Jem'hadar forces in early 2374 OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. CAIRO NCC-42136 Commanded by Captain Jellico in 2369, Destroyed by Jem'hadar near the Romulan Neutral Zone in 2374 while under the command of Captain Leslie Wong DESTROYED
U.S.S. KONGO NCC-42173 Partisipated in invasion of Chin'toka in late 2374 OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. CHARLESTON NCC-42285 Transported 20th-Century survivors back to Earth in 2364, Apart of Picard's tachyon detection grid in 2368, Assigned to deep space exploration in sector 22853 in 2369 OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. HOOD NCC-42296 Commanded by Captain Robert DeSoto, Willian Riker's posting as Executive Officer after serving aboard the Potemkin, Met Enterprise=D at Deneb IV in 2364, Transported Tam Elbrun to Enterprise-D in 2366, sent to the the Romulan Neutral Zone due to warnings of a Romulan buildup at Nelvana III in 2366, Scheduled to join the Enterprise-D on a terraforming mission on planet Browder IV in 2366, Apart of Picard's tachyon detection grid in 2367, Underwent major systems upgrade at Starbase 134 in 2369, Partisipated in invasion of Chin'toka in late 2374 OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. LAKOTA NCC-42768 Tried to stop Defiant during Admiral Leyton's attempted coup in 2372 OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. GRISSOM NCC-42857 Was near the Sigma Erandi system during the tricyanate contamination on Beta Agni II in 2366, only 6 Survived out of a crew of 1200 when the ship was destroyed by Jem'hadar at the Battle of Ricktor Prime in 2375 DESTROYED
U.S.S. AL-BATANI NCC-42995 Commanded by then Captain Owen Paris, Science officer was Kathryn Janeway OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. VALLEY FORGE NCC-43305 Partisipated in invasion of Chin'toka in late 2374 OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. CRAZY HORSE NCC-50446 Part of task force 3 during expected Borg invasion of 2369, transported Admiral Erik Pressman to Enterprise-D in 2370 OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. MELBOURNE NCC-62043 Lost at the battle of Wolf 359 in 2367 DESTROYED
U.S.S. FARRAGUT NCC->UNW< Transported Genetically engineered group posing as starfleet officers to DS9 in 2375 OPERATIONAL
Now, out of all that lot, excluding all ships seen since Wolf 359 or are known to have been destroyed or decommisioned before hand...only these ships are potential candidates for a Wolf 359 appearance:-
OKINAWA LIVINGSTON AL-BATANI INTREPID
These were never seen, only mentioned in the past tence. So technically any or all of these could have been at Wolf 359, the only thing we know for certain is that the Intrepid wasn't in service by about 2370 so if only one of these could have been there, then this is the best candidate.
[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: Reverend ]
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
Wasn't the Valley Forge destroyed or did she survive the damage to her saucer section from the OWP?
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I'd think she'd been destroyed.. We saw her lose control, and typically that would make a target that much easier to hit (though the OWPs didn't seem to have much trouble hitting anything during the fight...).
I stand corrected on the Repulse, though I stand fast on my belief that the Farragut in "Crysalis" was not the Excelsior hanging from the docking pylon. So there. Schmaa.
Mark
Posted by Mojo (Member # 536) on :
I have a question...
Weren't ships like the Akira, Steamrunner and Sabre part of the Defiant/Intrepid Borg Buster line?
Posted by Mojo (Member # 536) on :
Even if the Borg adapted to your phasers (or other energy weapon), couldn't you still just shoot them with a machine gun? I'd like to see them adapt to good, old fashioned, high-velocity lead.
I always thought that every time in the original series someone magically waved his hand and made their phasers stop working, Kirk should have pulled out a revolver...
Certainly the Borg's personal shields are based around adapting to and stopping energy weapons... and hand to hand combat it still effective... so I gotta figure a good shotgun would be pretty hard for them to adapt to!
Mojo
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
quote: I have a question...
Weren't ships like the Akira, Steamrunner and Sabre part of the Defiant/Intrepid Borg Buster line?
The general concensus in fandom is that no, they weren't. While the theory of "the higher you go with the NCC numbers, the newer the ship it is" has plenty of holes and contradiction, it is the theory that some of the show's tech writers wanted to go with and tried to stick with. This means, therefore, that the Akira, Steamrunner, Norway and possibly Sabre classes were around some time before the beginning of TNG.
The most obvious hole in this logic is the one the most of the anti-chronological NCCers like to point out: if all these ships were supposed to be around before the Enterprise-D, then why hell have we never seen any of them before "First Contact"? Put simply, within the context of the show they simply weren't seen. For example, the Soyuz-class USS Bozeman was around during Kirk's time but not once did we see one puttering around in the background. There's a difference in that they explicitly mention the service time of the Soyuz class, but the analogy holds true. We've debated NCCs to no end here before, but in short there's little to prove that the Akira, etc. are post-Wolf 359 designs.
Some enterprising (sic) authors who didn't do their homework (notably, the bunch of guys who wrote the "Official" histories of these ships for the recent RPG) have mangaed to slip through this more popular logic, and as a result this is one of the more common things we debate about.
Now, I know the Akira writeup in the Starship Spotter goes with the Akira = new sentiment. While the writeup itself is more than feasible, it ignores the "NCC Intent" theory in favour of making the Akira way newer than most people think it should be.
quote:Originally posted by Mojo: Even if the Borg adapted to your phasers (or other energy weapon), couldn't you still just shoot them with a machine gun? I'd like to see them adapt to good, old fashioned, high-velocity lead.
I always thought that every time in the original series someone magically waved his hand and made their phasers stop working, Kirk should have pulled out a revolver...
Revolver, nuthin. I'd like to see someone in Trek carrying around the equivalent of the M-41A pulse rifle from "Aliens"! Now THAT's a gun!
quote:Certainly the Borg's personal shields are based around adapting to and stopping energy weapons... and hand to hand combat it still effective... so I gotta figure a good shotgun would be pretty hard for them to adapt to!
Mojo
Presumably the Borg have yet to come up with a suitable defense against good ole' kinetic force. For whatever reason, sci-fi seems to equate energy weapons as more powerful than lead, thus this is possibly why no one thinks of carrying around something that CAN'T vapourize a target.
However, if you're thinking about Borg adaptations, you might consider the makeover of the Borg within the context of TNG to be one such adaptation against projectile weapons. We see in "Q Who?" that the majority of Borg walked around in simple body stalkings covered with technological doodads. However, by "Descent" everyone had rubber suits and full body armour. Concievably, this stuff is a heck of a lot more resilient to a bullet (and a bunch of other stuff) than some wool overgarment.
Mark
[ January 24, 2002, 20:55: Message edited by: Mark Nguyen ]
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
There was a thread about this awhile ago. The conclusion we came to was that they can adapt to projectile weapons to. They adapt to photons without too much trouble. Just nobody else ever tried it before Picard in First Contact and they were unprepared for it.
(Damn you Mark!)
But yeah, in a world of forcefields and energy shields, energy weapons are inherently desirable, because they release tons more energy against an energy defense. When you get right down to it, the kinetic energy unleashed against an energy shield can't add up to much to be effective.
[ January 24, 2002, 20:35: Message edited by: OnToMars ]
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
we only saw picard shoot 2 drones with the tommy gun. if there had been a third, it might have been adapted. remember, phasers usually get off a couple shots per frequency against the borg, so i can't think of any reason why projectile weapons would be any different.
--jacob
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
I'll second Mark's comments. The Akira/Steamrunner/Sabre-are-post-W359 camp has been a steadily-decreasing minority to the point where the people you hooked up with for Starship Spotter must've been about half of all people total who still subscribe to that interpretation. (Jesus, that sounded pretentious. And they wonder why us fans get a bad rap. )
For what it's worth, Sternbach, Okuda and the rest of the gang have spoken on the newsgroups to the effect that their take is that the registry numbers are still sequential and that these ships were indeed around, but unseen (hint, hint ), during TNG's run. They also tend to support the idea that these ships aren't gloriously overarmed monster ships but just more of the same, scaling back the torpedo launcher numbers in the DS9TM and so-on. IIRC, in Alex Jaeger's interview about designing the Akira and pals it was implied he'd envisioned them as some kind of a crew of Federation mega-battleships that had been around but not necessarily as a result of the Borg threat. Of course, Jaeger is somewhat notorious for being a "hey guns and space fighters cool" militarist when it came to Trek and most of us just sigh and scratch our heads when it comes to the thing bristling with weapons.
As far as meshing with the actual onscreen canon of the Trek universe, it was strongly implied and/or said outright numerous times that the Galaxy-class was the meanest thing the Federation had to offer during the period of TNG's run. And, of course, it was an Explorer, for "Starfleet isn't a military organization" and "Starfleet doesn't build warships." The Defiant was introduced very much as the only exception to that rule, a starship built expressly for combat post W359, with the added implication that the whole idea of building a dedicated fleet of Borg-busting vessels never happened because the Defiant was so problematic.
The Intrepid has certainly never, ever been intended as a Borg-buster. That contradicts pretty much everything that the ship was envisioned as by its designers and the creative staff.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Mojo, please ignore this bit about a completely non-existent "consensus." No such thing exists. In spite of the gripes about the registry numbers, it is BLATANTLY obvious that the Akira, Saber, Steamrunner, and Norway are all from a similar and relatively new design family. The Jaeger designs all share numerous elements in common, and positively REEK of "super-duper-bad-ass-battleship." Now, it's possible that these designs may have been initially conceived at an earlier time (Cardassian War) and simply never came to fruition until later, after Wolf 359. This would go a long ways to explain the NCC's to those who are desperate for such an explanation. They, like the Defiant-class, could have been in the works for a while but were re-designed w/augmented offensive and defensive tactical systems, but the final products seen in First Contact definitely look to have been specifically tailored to combat the threat of the Borg. Such was Jaeger's intention, and there's really no reason why it can't be adhered to without difficulty. In fact, as has been said, to do otherwise would go against the concept of a peaceful UFP and Starfleet mainly occupied with exploratory and diplomatic endeavors that was implied throughout TNG.
And Reverend:
quote:U.S.S. KONGO NCC-42173 Participated in invasion of Chin'toka in late 2374 OPERATIONAL
Again w/this? I thought the only place this EVER cropped up was in one alleged phone conversation between Okuda and Peregrinus (who was quite hazy on the details) in which Okuda said he was considering using the NAME in a DS9 battle ep. We've never been able to track down where the reg came from, or make any kind of confirmation that it ever was used. I realize that it really has nothing important to do w/the topic of your post, but I had just thought we had it settled. Do you know something I don't? Please share it.
-MMoM Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
We have minority member number 1. Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
The Al-Batani... Actually - I just deleted what I was going to say about Janeway/Paris' Father being on the Al-Batani and WOLF-359 - Both could have moved on since their mission together aboard that ship - Janeway to another ship and Paris onto Admiral.
Just about the Akira, Steamrunner, Sabre and Norway... I reckon that they are older ships... I have resigned myself to that fact after quite a long time... BUT I needed to explain why they had 'modern' E-E markings. The Borg incursion in FC, seem to indicate it took place near Earth. I reckon these ships were either 1. Stocked in Sector 001 for such an event. 2. In Sector 001 going undergoing their upgrade/refit to E-E type systems/markings etc.
Seeing as we never saw the Norway again, I reckon it was a 'mothballed' prototype kept in Sector 001.
The Akira might have had older features like escape-pods/nacelles etc. Maybe something akin to the Ambassador class. Same for the Steamrunner. The bussard collectors on this one look similar to the E-C's...
The Sabre on the otherhand I think - due to its size and similar configuration (except this one sticks with the nacelles-at-a-distance stlye) - is one of the Borg Weapons that were under development by Shelby and co. I think that after the success of the Defiant's ironing out by Chief O'Brien, that they decided to get these babies out too... ESPECIALLY when they needed something smaller against the Jem'hadar.
So basically these four types of ships were on hand in Sector 001. There was only the Bozeman and a nebbie around as 'other' ships that we've seen.
(I think the Bozeman is stalking the Enterprise) ;o)
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Don't worry about the small Sovereign-likeness of the Akira, Norway, Sabre, and Steamrunner.
Remember that the Niagara, Challanger, New Orleans, Nebula, et al... came before the Galaxy. They have Galaxy-like markings too.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
The real problem is that the Steamrunner in turn came before the Challenger, New Orleans, Springfield, Nebula etc... That is, if you believe age can be determined from the registries. I do.
I wouldn't sweat the markings, since they can be easily repainted. But I would encourage Mojo to try out some variety in this respect. For example, recent-manufacture ships of Galaxy or Nebula class could have Sovereign-style pennant graphics. Or an old Steamrunner could have a color scheme similar to that of the Galaxies, instead of the standard rather dark grey.
I'd hate to label the Sabres as Borg-killers, however. We do have some 61k range registry evidence, which should be well before "Q Who?". And contrary to Encyclopedia graphics, these ships are relatively large. I'd assume experimental anti-Borg vessels to start small. The Sabre seems like a simple continuation of the Steamrunner design lineage - perhaps a dead end, perhaps the next primary lineage of Starfleet?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Isn't it a little strange that lots of these four types of ships came out for the Borg battle in FC?? That's why I thought they may have been in for refit/mothballed. Maybe they were ships that were mothballed AFTER all the mothballed ships from the best of both worlds were destroyed - lots of empty storage space? MAYBE They were retired after the Cardassian wars... and stored. And they had recently been reactivated because of the Dominion threat and have been slowly undergoing refit (using of course the new tech that we see featured on the EE.). It just seems strange having LOTS of 4 types of ships and only 1 Sovereign, 1 Miranda and 1 Nebula.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Alternate theory: most of the ship types seen here were optimized for large-scale warfare and were not very practical at deep-space exploration. Hence, our heroes would not come to contact with them until this time of conflict.
Perhaps all these fancy multi-shuttlebay designs were built for planetary assault roles, and a fleet of them was amassing at Earth in order to fight the Dominion. The Steamrunners don't seem to have any other more plausible role - they don't seem to be able to fire torpedoes, so they suck at ship-to-ship; they don't withstand hits from Borg weapons quite as well as some elderly Mirandas do; and they have a minimal number of phaser strips awkwardly placed. But they do have a freaking big shuttlebay that apparently takes up most of the interior, judging by the placement of the doors.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
How can you say that they don't take hits as well as Mirandas!?! Who knows how long those Steamrunners were battling the Borg before the Miranda turned up!?! For all we know they could have been the first starships on the scene and lasted the longest.
Have we ever seen a nice clear shot of the bottom of them? Who knows where Torpedoes could emerge from!?! ;o)
Posted by Fedaykin Supastar (Member # 704) on :
I like the idea that those "bad-ass" starships were like in storage and hence were not seen for a lot of the time. since Starfleet isnt primarily a military organization (if i'm completely off the mark some one hit me ) anyway, since there were no major wars which were shown onscreen prior to the jem-hadar, then we would not have seen these starships designed to fight. That may explain the different designs compared with the explorers we were used to. Which may also explain the reason why Archer's enterprise looks the way it does and has all that offensive equipment... since they needed to protect themselves while they 'looked around'
i dunno that just my thawts on the subject.
If my, ideas were somehow ripped off someone else i'm sorry!
[ January 25, 2002, 08:01: Message edited by: Fedaykin Supastar ]
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
You know, I would really love to see a clear picture of the Akira, Steamrunner, and Saber undersides. We've had the tops, well how about the bottoms? Perhaps Mojo can help with this?
I too think that the FC ships have been around for some time. Many reasons have already been given and I'm inclined to go with the theory that the ships were refit, at least to some extent anyway, before FC.
As for the Bozeman - I have a theory that the Soyuz-class is simply a subclass of the Mirandas, hence the similarities. So the Bozeman always really was a Miranda in essence. Anyway, I believe that the Bozeman was refit to the Miranda baseline and that's the ship we see in Generations (at the end), and in First Contact (up against the cube). Just a nice theory that happens to fit the facts we know.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
My opinion of the Bozeman was that she was not the Miranda class - she either wasn't there, or was another class of ship. We only know that a Bozeman was there, mostly at the behest of the writer whose hometown it is. There's no evidence either way, so...
The most detailed pics of the Akira class online are probably here:
Unfortunately, there has *never* been a good shot of the underside of a Steamrunner, Saber or Norway onscreen. The ST:M has underside schematics of the first two, but their authenticity is often held in dispute due to this lack of onscreen evidence.
Regarding the rest of the FC designs, it is likely that they were refitted with extra stuff, though not necessarily just for FC - it could have simply been planned upgrades to the whole class to give the Akira and Steamrunner the FC-era escape pods. Of the four, it's possible that the only "Borg Buster" besides the Defiant was the Norway class, since we've never seen them anywhere else. Perhaps the Norway was a limited-production class that was refit into a Borg Buster in favour of building a whole new class of ship - or to complement the limited-production Defiant class.
Mark
[ January 25, 2002, 08:51: Message edited by: Mark Nguyen ]
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Not that its worth anything in studio terms, but in the novel 'Ship of the Line', the Bozeman was depicted as being reactivated for service, i.e. the Bozeman mentioned in 'Generations' was the Soyuz-class vessel. It was retired shortly after that at Starbase 12, where it is now a museum piece. Morgan Bateson took charge of the Sovereign-class development project, along with SCE Captain Montgomery Scott. Bateson requested command of the E-E, since JL Picard was on a long term secret mission in Cardassian space. After command of the Enterprise was given to Jean-Luc Picard (who returned after a standoff during the E-E's shakedown), Bateson was honored with a new command, the Norway-class U.S.S. Bozeman (a hastily renamed U.S.S. Roderick).. and since the ship was renamed, it carried a NCC-1941-A registry. This would then be the Borg-battle Bozeman, commanded by the Kelsey Grammar voiceover cameo
I like Diane Carey's Treks so this is how I see it.
[ January 25, 2002, 09:06: Message edited by: CaptainMike ]
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I heard that novel wasn't... err... that great.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Ship of the Line was awesome! it wasn't Carey's best, she seems to shine the most with her own characters, but it certainly got the feel of the new ship right. It was a little oddly plotted at the resolution, but it stil lshines superior compared to some of the crap that comes out from Pocket with ST written on the front
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I didn't like it. For some odd reason, many Pocket authors like to try to isolate people aboard starships alone, with a less-than-skeleton crew aboard. This is the case in "Ship of the Line", when the E-E ends up with next to no one aboard for extended periods of time. This is a silly trend, visible in nother novels like "Saratoga", "Ashes of Eden", and "Crossover" among them.
Mark
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
when did that happen in ashes of eden??? and what relevance did it have to the overall story..
BTW, those two other Michael Jan Friedman novels do suck ass..
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Age of the FC ships: I can live with these being older than the E-D. You could say that they were originally standard explorer types but were refitted with updated technology, either in responce to the borg or not, it doesn't really matter. It would be interesting to see someome come up with a TNG era version of these ships.
Boezman: I kind of like the idea that the last of the Soyuz-class is still milling about the place. Remember that it was fresh out of the docks before it became trapped in the causality loop, so it was technically still brand new. If you recall Geordie's comments in "Relics", its not inconcevable that a 23rd century ship could opperate in the 24th century, all it would need is a few months getting a few minor systems refited.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
I can't live with FC ships being older than Ent-D. =P They're just too young looking. I see Starfleet ship evolution as making ships increasingly more stream-lined, and IMO, the Akira fits better between the GCS and the Sovery than between the Amb and the GCS.
I really dislike the theory that the FC ships were actually built for the Cardassian War, considering how out matched Cardassian ships are against existing classes like the Ambassador.
You're all fools! Fools, I tell ya! *gets shot*
[ January 25, 2002, 14:45: Message edited by: David Templar ]
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
^Number two.
The problem, as said, is that they *look* like new tech. They share commonalities w/the Sovereign, Defiant, Intrepid, and Nova, all ships that are from that most recent era. And they also have a number of features that are unique from other families, but common among them.
If you guys are really worried about the regs, then how about a theory whereby sometime during the Cardassian War, certain blocks of numbers were "reserved", so to speak, for designs in development that eventually evolved into our beloved Borg Busters.
There you are. That works. I'd be happy with that explanation. But there's no way in my mind that the Akira, Norway, Steamrunner, and Saber are older ships. They certainly don't predate the Galaxy.
-MMoM Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Well, since everyone's dropping opinions left, right and centre, might I drop mine that "deriving class lineages" and figuring out chronological class ordering in terms of streamlinedness is the Trekkie equivalent of using a divining rod to find a well?
Posted by Mojo (Member # 536) on :
I double checked, and the Akira model published in The Magazine is accurate.
Mojo
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I submit that in Trek, how old a design looks is independent of its actual age. The Galaxy-class "family" is ample proof of this - we conclusively have mini-Galaxy clones running aorund years, and often decades, before the Galaxy herself. At the same time, we know that there are other paradigms of starship design that continue to go on long past other, different kinds.
The Sovereign, Steamrunner, Akira et. al. are simply part of a different design family that predates, or runs concurrently, with that of the Galaxy paradigm. What's wrong with that? It's not apples and oranges in starship design; if anything, it's BMWs and Mercedes. Both made by the same state, both having the same numbers of engines and nacelles/wheels. But are they the same? Nope. It's just that for whatever reason we never saw these other designs, just like we've never seen the Bradbury or Sequoia or Wambundu class starships.
Someone has also mentioned before that there's also the fanboy factor, however small, that refuses to accept that anything cooler than something that's come before can actually *be* older than that something. I'm not saying that the propoents of the Akira = new suffer from that, but outside of these forums anyway it's one reason the sentiment lingers on...
Mark
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: The Sovereign, Steamrunner, Akira et. al. are simply part of a different design family that predates, or runs concurrently, with that of the Galaxy paradigm. What's wrong with that? It's not apples and oranges in starship design; if anything, it's BMWs and Mercedes. Both made by the same state, both having the same numbers of engines and nacelles/wheels. But are they the same? Nope... Mark
Perhaps they a from different design teams on different Ship yards? You could say that all of the Galaxy family came from Utopia Planitia and were themselves designed from the un-used prototypes and concept work from the Galaxy-Class Project. While similarly the Sovereign was being developed at San Francisco and some of the FC ships were also based on the early development work.
So we have two differnt "Families" being built at the same time, off of different projects on different yards and both culminating in the full scale parent ships that look distinctly different. The only real difference between them is that the Soverign was launched about a decade after the Galaxy, so we may assume that the projects were also 10 or so years apart, giving the Sovereign the advantage of starting from a more advanced standpoint than the Galaxy.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Why can't those 'older ships' that look 'new' be REFITS!?! A la the Enterprise-Nil... if the registry idea that "they are assigned when they are first begun" is to go by the NX-2000 (Excelsior) was always going to have the 'new' look. Even though at the 'starting stage' there was still the old looking Connies. Remember the Connies were at least 20 years old (we the Enterprise was).
Also, maybe this explains away the Wierd 1317 or what ever the registry was - that stuffed up the registry patterns... the Constellation wasn't it... maybe this baby might LOOK like a 'connie' in the planet killer episode - but it could have undergone a number of major refits since it was originally built.
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
I'm inclined to agree with Andrew. I like to think that any of the Constitutions that have lower regos than the prototype, must have originally been an older but similar class that was heavily refit. Sort of like kitbashing in reverse. What a ship like the Constellation initally looked like can be up to our imagination. As an example, maybe they started life looking like the Loknar (the TOS equivalent of the NX-01).
[ January 26, 2002, 21:17: Message edited by: Dax ]
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
About the Galaxy-class ship from the DS9 calendar (the NCC-70564, mentioned on p.6). I was just over at TrekBBS and they've been discussing it there. One of the members there, Cpt. Kyle Amasov, emailed Gary Hutzel about it. Anyway, apparently the ship was labeled USS Ronald D. Moore after the famed Trek writer.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Well, that answers THAT question, doesn't it!
Mark
Posted by Phelps (Member # 713) on :
On a more useful note (with respect to this thread), I'll point out that Digital Domain's directory also contains the phone number of Robert Legato. I suggest someone with the ability to record the conversation phone him about that lost footage from "Emissary."
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
that would be creepy.
Mrs. L: Who was on the phone honey?
Rob: Some kids called and wanted to know the resgistry on the Apollo-class model.
Mrs L: I'm leaving you.
Posted by Phelps (Member # 713) on :
Well, given that I've e-mailed/chatted with Alex Jaeger, Mike Okuda, Rick Sternbach, David Stipes, Mojo, Robert Hewitt Wolfe, David Lombardi, Rob Bonchune, Andrew Robinson, Joe Michael Straczynski, George Johnsen, Timothy Earls and Andrew Probert, I don't mind adding a few more names to the list. But I'd have to get a phone card and make notes on paper.
Here's what the designated caller should do:
1) Say hello 2) Say he's representing the Flare forums which are researching this as a hobby, and that he likes his work. 3) In the process of asking the questions, let him know how much you know about this stuff already. He'll feel more at home, and trust that he's giving the information in the right hands. 4) Ask him how many models were built, and if he could describe those he remembers (or whatever, I'm not the Wolf 359 expert here).
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
quote:Originally posted by Phelps: 3) In the process of asking the questions, let him know how much you know about this stuff already. He'll feel more at home, and trust that he's giving the information in the right hands.
Oh yeah, can't let sensitive Starfleet information fall into the 'wrong hands', now can we?
"Um, you sound like you have a Jem'Hadar accent..."
"Quiet, weak human. Now tell me the exact Federation ship loss at Chin'taka plus a class by class breakdown or I'll skin you and your family! Or maybe I'll do so anyways!"
"I'm gonna hang up now..."
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
quote:) 1)Say hello
What about hi? Too casual?
quote:2) Say he's representing the Flare forums which are researching this as a hobby, and that he likes his work.
Um, stupid. Better to make a self-depreciating joke about tech-obsessed trekkies. Then say you really like his work. But not too many reallys, because then you'll be annoying.
quote:3) In the process of asking the questions, let him know how much you know about this stuff already. He'll feel more at home, and trust that he's giving the information in the right hands.
As opposed to the Russkies? How about good ol'-fashioned being nice and friendly and not-too-weird and letting him get as dorky as he wants to get?
quote:4) Ask him how many models were built, and if he could describe those he remembers (or whatever, I'm not the Wolf 359 expert here).
Fine, but let's remember Jaegergate and Jeingate Were he to speak for two minutes we'd inevitably triple what we already know about this lost footage.
Now, um, has anyone realized that digging up his home(?) phone number from somewhere online and bugging him unsolicited is a little, um, psycho? Doing the above as advertised might well be nerdy enough to warrant the tape's inclusion into "Trekkies II"
Posted by Phelps (Member # 713) on :
Read what I write. I said the number is in Digital Domain's directory. Digital Domain is a commercial company for which Legato does freelance work. It's a public phone number. Do I have to spell it out?
[ January 29, 2002, 19:54: Message edited by: Phelps ]
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
No, there's nothing psycho about it. We're trying to track down some information and he's the most likely person who'd be able to help us. So we call him and ask him about it. See if maybe he can help us out. It's not a big deal. And it certainly isn't "psycho".
That is, unless we ALL start calling him. Let's be clear on who's going to. We don't want another situation like with Miarecki...
-MMoM Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
And, uh, which "directory" is this?
Posted by Phelps (Member # 713) on :
Step 1) I looked at Dax' post about Gary Hutzel revealing information.
Step 2) I immediately went over to TrekBBS where I learned that the fellow found the e-mail address at Digital Domain.
Step 3) I did a google search for Digital Domain Gary Hutzel, and found the page.
Step 4) I saw a bunch of other familiar names listed and decided to inform people here, but without posting the number which can be easily found in four steps! That's to prevent spreading of this information online.
You know what, seriously, you should speak to him. I think your approach is going to work.
[ January 29, 2002, 20:38: Message edited by: Phelps ]
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Perhaps I'm being Puritanical, but it still seems a little invasive, especially if it's a home number.
Indeed, as per this, the number's either unlisted or didn't exist when it was last compiled.
[ January 29, 2002, 20:43: Message edited by: The_Tom ]
Posted by Phelps (Member # 713) on :
It doesn't have to be more invasive than journalist doing research for FineScale Modeller of Cinefex. Depends on where the information ends up.
[ January 29, 2002, 21:34: Message edited by: Phelps ]
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
See, you're on the wrong tack when you call this research. Figuring out the protein morphology in the seminiferous fluids of mice is research. This is called "asking."
Posted by Phelps (Member # 713) on :
Well, there's scientific research, and there's research for a book which often consists of interviewing people.
WHATEVER I don't care, I'm not a Wolf 359 fan, it's up to everyone interested in Wolf 359 (except the astronomers and the astrophysicists) to decide. If I see anything, I pass it on. That simple.
[ January 29, 2002, 21:51: Message edited by: Phelps ]
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. Of course, in Kirk's days on the Republic, she must have been still in active duty.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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I'm not sure! ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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