Okay, please don't dismiss me as a rambling lunatic hell-bent on his obsession with the U.S.S. Trinculo, I just want to clarify some things...
What has been said to me in the past has been that the last place we saw the physical Galaxy model on DS9 was as the U.S.S. Venture in "The Way of the Warrior." However, I have also been told that the CGI model was unlabeled until "Tears of the Prophets" where it served as the U.S.S. Galaxy.
But, these shots from "Favor the Bold" (or is it "Sacrifice of Angels"?) clearly show a Galaxy with a name and registry. Is it then the physical model, or just a CGI model that for some reason was labeled? (With what, we don't know.) Whichever the case, the ship is not the Venture version with the raised phaser strips on the nacelles, nor does it have the darkened neck of some of the CGI representations seen in the same set of episodes.
Now, searches for a picture of the model labeled as the U.S.S. Trinculo have turned up zilch. But I want to ask if there's anybody who remembers SEEING a picture of the model, and what it looked like. Did it have raised nacelle strips? There has been discussion over on the TrekBBS recently and some people have been saying that they've heard the Trinculo model had a darkened neck. This may be complete bullsh*t, and no one has come forth with a source for the information other than that they'd heard it, but I wanted to check if there is any kind of possibility whatsoever that the Trinculo was in fact either one of the dark-necked ships or the ship seen with the registry in "Favor the Bold"/"Sacrifice of Angels". (Which one is it anyways?)
You may have been through this all before, and I searched for old threads talking about it, but could not locate discussion of these specific points. However, I did find out what board member had originally said they had pics of the Trinculo. It was Michael_T. Is he still around? I checked his profile and he has no record on the "this user was last seen..." There was an e-mail address, and I'm sending him a message asking if he still has the pics. But, I don't know how current the address is...
Anyone have any info that would be useful to me on this?
Thanks, -MMoM
[ January 31, 2002, 18:56: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
Nein, nein, Mim! These are Michael_T's words:
"From what I remember, the pics were taken by a fan who uploaded it in his site."
He didn't say HE had them, he said some fan did.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Oh, damn! I can't believe this. I've been in the old threads all day and I completely forgot that he just posted in my last thread!
Jesus, I didn't even remember hearing of him...
Well, sorry Mike! Just ignore that e-mail then. I phrased it all like you were someone who didn't even post here anymore. Sorry, it all just slipped my mind.
But, he did say he had pics. From the waaaaaaaaay old U.S.S. Trinculo thread:
quote:Originally posted by Michael_T: I have a few on my old computer...but I'm too lazy to move them and I don't know how to post them on the boards. The pics were from the Planet Hollywood in Beverly Hills, Ca.
Anyways, guess this isn't going to help with the whole "not dismissing me as a rambling lunatic" thing...
Me=dork.
Sorry. -MMOM Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Damn, again with this smiley bullshit..
*chk chk*
BLAM!! *BLAM*
Just tell me if you see any more
[ January 31, 2002, 19:50: Message edited by: CaptainMike ]
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
Poor Face. He never got an answer to his question.
Posted by Phelps (Member # 713) on :
Well, according to Stipes, the two Galaxies in "A Call to Arms" were CG. Since they were able to import other ILM models for these pre-"Sacrifice" shows (Akira, Steamrunner, Sabre), it's likely that at least some of the Galaxies in "Favor the Bold" are the ILM CG model used in "Generations." No other CG Galaxy would be built before "The Sacrifice of Angels" as far as we know.
However, since these early fleet shows used a combination of CGI and motion control (enhanced by using kitbash ships and model kits, of the Miranda for example), it's very possible that the Trinculo is here as the four-footer, used for convenience or variety.
It could easily be the ship on which a registry is seen -- it only makes sense to put the physical model closest to the screen because of its quality.
However, since we can't read the registry, there's no way to confirm anything unless we ask. I'd rather have the two Galaxies with darker necks be CGI models. They kinda look like the six-footer -- anyone with a good eye?
[ January 31, 2002, 20:05: Message edited by: Phelps ]
Posted by Michael_T (Member # 144) on :
Oh my god, I do have two pics from that site! Shit, I need to find them though but it may take a while since I have an extensive collection of Trek pics from the internet. I'm getting started.
Posted by Michael_T (Member # 144) on :
Here's an update, I know that the two pics are in one of my old hard drives but I won't be able to access them until next week since they are in storage. So bear with me for a bit.
Posted by Phelps (Member # 713) on :
Thanks to Google Groups, I found the following r.a.s.t. post by D.J. Creighton, the maintainer of the famous Ships Basic and Expanded lists:
Late in 1995, Paramount loaned the 4' Enterprise to a museum in Scotland. On the way back, US customs pried open the model to make sure that no one was smuggling drugs inside of it. Of course, they did some serious damage to it. It was still usable for long shots, but required much work if it was ever to be used for close photographs again.
Fortunately, the big 6' ship was in great condition from the refurb that ILM gave it for Generations, even thought that model is much bulkier and more difficult to work with.
- Joe
There's no doubt that the Galaxies in "Favor the Bold" were based on the six-footer -- just look at the shape of the deflector on the rest of Pedro's pictures. All the distinguishing marks of the six-footer are there.
I don't know why Hutzel or Stipes would bother to pull out the physical four-footer after showing the CGIs in such closeups. If you wanted black markings, just paint the CGIs black.
It seems to me the Trinculo isn't here or anywhere else onscreen.
[ February 04, 2002, 10:50: Message edited by: Phelps ]
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I agree, it doesn't seem as if the Trinculo is one of the dark necks. (Unless some pictures or an eyewitness reveals that the exhibition model had this paintjob...)
But again, what about the ship with the reg? If it's a CGI (and the CG model remained unlabeled until "Tears of the Prophets") then why does it have one? And, why don't any onf the others have any such markings?
The Trinculo model...what was it? The four-footer? How come the aforementioned damage has never been noted?
-MMoM Posted by Phelps (Member # 713) on :
Well, maybe the CGI is still labeled "1701-D" as in "Generations." Probably a mistake, just like the famous "Defiant 74210" in "Tears of the Prophets."
Also, this is probably not the same Galaxy CG used in "Sacrifice of Angels" and "Tears of the Prophets." That one was likely rebuilt in LightWave using this CG model (and maybe even the six-footer) as the basis.
The Trinculo was the four-footer.
[ February 04, 2002, 13:40: Message edited by: Phelps ]
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
What about those two Galaxys in 'Call to Arms'? They were physical models. I always assumed they were both labeled NCC-1701-D (I recall I saw at least one 1701-D flying in the taskforce, but I could be wrong.). But still the other one could have been the Trinculo. (Or the famous Ron Moore, if it was a physical model. )
[ February 04, 2002, 14:04: Message edited by: Cpt. Kyle Amasov ]
Posted by Phelps (Member # 713) on :
No, they were CGIs, according to Stipes.
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
Sure? from the Companion, p.471:
"[first talking about the Defiant and Rotarran for the final shot and how they had to do them with CGI]...Ultimately, those two ships were done as CGI, as were a number of the vessels in the fleet. 'We ended up with a combination of both motion control practical models, both full-size and smaller kit-built ships, and computer generated ship models that had been built by ILM for First Contact', notes [Adam] Buckner. 'They'd made a number of new ships for the Borg attack at the beginning of the movie.'"
This sounds as if they had used the CGI's of the Akira, Steamrunner and Sabre and the rest were motion-control, physical models. I don't know in which way Stipes confirmed this, but one of them is wrong. Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Believe it or not, I went to that 1995 exhibition, only when it went on to the Science Museum in London afterwards. And no, I can't remember what the model was labelled as.
But hey, I touched Captain Picard's desk! That's gotta count for something. . . 8)
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I went to the one in Southampton, I'm fairly certain that there was a big 6ft galaxy model as you came in and I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it was labled as the E-D
Posted by Phelps (Member # 713) on :
Here's the original post:
From: David Stipes Subject: Re: call to arms fleet... Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.tech View: Complete Thread (49 articles) | Original Format Date: 1997/07/03
McReynolds wrote: > > I don't suppose it would be too much to ask for a breakdown of exactly > WAS there, so we can stop arguing about things that weren't, would it? > :-) Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I see: > > A.) 2 Galaxy-class
Yes, 2 Enterprises (CGI)
> B.) 2 Excelsior-class (non-refit)
Yes, (the 3 foot model created for Voyager/Sulu episode)
> C.) 3 Defiant-class (including the Defiant herself)
Yes, (all CGI)
> D.) at least 3 Miranda-class
Yes, if Miranda = Reliants. (All model kits of Reliant) Not to confuse issue, there may be another Reliant in the distance. We shot several groupings of Reliants. Some were dropped because of technical problems and some ships were removed to make the shot less confusing.
> E.) a lot of K't'inga-class and Vor'cha-class Klingon ships
Maybe. I'm not sure what K't'inga is. There are a lot of old style Klingon D-7 Cruisers and Vor'chas. (D-7's are model kits and Vor'chs's are the sound making toys.)
I hope I am not spoiling it for you. In these fleet/mob shots we use every trick we can to pull off the shot.
> F.) a lot of FIRST CONTACT ships, including Sabre-class and > Steamrunner-class, Akira-class and Norway-class possible
Yes to first three. (all CGI) I believe we removed the Norway-class for technical reasons.
> G.) a lot of Birds-of-Prey, presumably of B'Rel-class and K'Vort-class
Yes, but not several classes. They are all the same BOP as we have always seen. (All CGI) If it matters, we did scale Martok's BOP up in size to appear more equal with the Defiant. That may give an impression of another class. Just artistic license. (Please forgive me. )
Martok's BOP at the beginning has his wings in attack mode to distinguish him from all the other BOP which have wings in cruise mode.
That's it. We had a limited assortment of ships to work with. I'm sorry to say there is NO Enterprise 1701 from TOS or Enterprise E. We just didn't think of them.
David Stipes, Visual effects Supervisor "A Call To Arms"
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
^^^^
Thanks.
(OK, I believe it now. )
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
My God, Stipes really is a dumb ass. I knew there was a reason I disliked the guy. Does he have anything to do with Enterprise (the show)?
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Stipes went off to do his own stuff after DS9 wrapped, but came back as a substitute VFX supervisor of sorts for "Terra Nova" and "Breaking the Ice" last year on Enterprise.
And honestly, just because the guy isn't obsessive-compulsive about Trek detailing doesn't mean he's subhuman. His storyboard work has kicked ass, for starters, and he was critical in making a smooth switch from physical to CGI work. He's certainly more willing to exercise artistic license than the other VFX guys, yes, and my inner tech-geek does take issue with the unilateral elimination of shield bubbles and decision to start blowing up spaceships after three shots. But he's responsible for some purty work. I'll take impressive-looking VFX sequences over unique registries on four-pixel-wide background ships any day. Feel free to excommunicate me for that.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I hereby excommunicate The_Tom...
-MMoM
[ February 08, 2002, 11:35: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Just kidding... Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
I can't say I've ever been too impressed with the work from Stipes. After all, he's responsible for the crappy VFX in episodes such as "Valiant" and "Tears of the Prophets" - they were absolutely terrible IMO.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
He also, did, well, pretty much every fleet scene, ever. He was the fleet guy, I guess. By Inferno's Light, Call to Arms, Sacrifice of Angels, WYLB, etc. etc.
And whatever about your opinions on the quality of the various CGI models in "Valiant" and "Tears", you can't deny that the starship choreography (to coin a phase) in those eps was a bit more artistic than the run-of-the-mill stuff we usually get.
Posted by Phelps (Member # 713) on :
Stipes is definitely to be credited for introducing CGI into DS9, and although the initial CGI models were rather inferior, they hadn't been meant for closeups, only fleet shots. Unfortunately, since they now had them, they got lazy and used them in closeups as well, for instance in "Valiant", where the weird Defiant model has to be seen in a closeup because it's easily relabeled and exploded, and because no stock footage could've been used. It should've been possible to relabel the model and use motion-control for at least the regular model footage, if not the explosion. That's the big problem.
I credit Stipes for going out of his way to answer questions online. Sure, he'd only been working on DS9 since Glenn Neufeld left after "Shattered Mirror", and only occassionally on TNG and Voyager before that -- however, there's no reason to believe any other supervisors are more familiar with the special nomenclature for these ships. He did misestimate the sizes of a couple of ships, but the other sizes were set by Hutzel and other supervisors -- they're not all his.
[ February 06, 2002, 04:10: Message edited by: Phelps ]
Posted by Michael_T (Member # 144) on :
Okay, the ship from Planet Hollywood was the 4-foot model since I didn't see any clear seperation lines that are found in the 6-foot model. At least 3 four-foot models were built before the master molds were destroyed, one of which is owned by a guy who freelanced as a VFX modelmaker in Star Trek: Voyager (He designed and built a mini-model of that robot in the Captain Proton holonovels). And I'm down to two more hard drives that may contain the pics. I may have an answer by Sunday or Monday.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I sincerely hope you have them. Thanks for putting the effort into looking, Michael_T.
-MMoM Posted by Michael_T (Member # 144) on :
Bad news MMoM... it seems that the latest earthquakes to rock the San Fernando Valley area of Los Angeles county destroyed one of my hard drives. It seems that a few boxes and a dot matrix printer fell on it and now I can't access anything on it since it's now a 2 GB paperweight. Sorry Kris, but if the pics were in that, then they are now gone along with the other pic collections it had.
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
Figures... Doesn't anyone else have Trinculo pics?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I think this is a conspiracy set up by the people who want us to forget about the Trinculo. They'll go to any lengths to prevent our tracking down oif the evidence that may prove that this ship actually exists. It's like Kennedy's fucking brain diappearing...
Needless to say I am most disappointed. But what can I say? You gave it your best shot. So, are you sure it was on that HD or haven't you finished checking the other one yet?
Bad luck, old boy.
-MMoM Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
I would like to help, but the only pictures I can remember are those two or three Venture-pics. Maybe I have them somwhere in the deepest corner of my collection. I can't remember them at the moment. Can anyone describe how they look like? The Venture was a model hanging from the ceiling, for example. Did it look similar?
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
It was up on a table (on a stand, of course) in this pic. That's all I can remember.
I think all those FX producers erased all pictures of the Trinculo from the Internet and disabled all computers with people who had the pic. They'll say a crazed fan made it up.
Michael T--ever seen "A View to a Kill?" Stipes or one of them knew the pic was in one of your hard drives, planted a bomb in the San Andreas Fault, and caused the earthquake that destroyed your HDs.
A real Oliver Stone, aren't I? Posted by Michael_T (Member # 144) on :
Yes, I am sure since it was the last hard drive I was going to check. The other ones had other Trek and X rated pics in them.
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Veers: It was up on a table (on a stand, of course) in this pic. That's all I can remember.
On a table? No, can't remember such a picture, but I'll look for it nontheless.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"The other ones had other Trek and X rated pics in them."
And the X-rated Trek pictures?
Posted by Michael_T (Member # 144) on :
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